Ok - I think I may have been hosed.....

[Stomp]

So I recently posted the thread about my recent diamond purchase. When I went to look at it the seller wrote down the specs - which were as follows (I have it in her writing).

Depth: 62.5
Table: 58%
CA Angle: 34
Pavilion: 40 3/4 degrees
Pavilion Depth: 43%

Well now that I have the EGL appraisal in my possession, I have the EGL plastic folder thing. I go to the EGLUSA website and see the following:

Weight 1.78 ct.
Shape ROUND BRILLIANT
Color H
Clarity VS1
Measurements 7.82 - 7.74 x 4.86 mm
Depth 62.5
Table 58.0
Crown 14.9
Pavilion 43.5
Girdle MEDIUM TO SL. THICK FACETED
Polish GOOD
Symmetry GOOD TO VERY GOOD
Fluorescence NONE
Culet NONE
Cut Grade
Lot A5368
Comments COPY OF CERTIFICATE
DATED 3\25\04

There is a pretty big diff, as I see on the cut advisor, between these two sets of numbers. Am I crazy?

 

[researcher]

Have you contacted the vendor? I would see if they did their own independent measures using a Sarin or something and gave you those numbers (I have two different Sarin reports for my stone, and neither one say the same thing as the cert (I also got two different readings from 2 BScope analyses (triple VH on one, High VH VH on the other)). All I'm saying is sometimes the machines aren't quite calibrated correctly.

 

[Stomp]

I just realized this now and they're closed on Sundays. I do know that my vendor is a Graduate Gemoligist w/ the GIA - so she does have her own lab. That being said, the thing, as I see it, that will matter more for my stone is what the cert says, not what the (biased/motivated) seller says they measured - correct?

In my opinion the numbers are what matter - and if I go back to her saying I paid for these numbers, written in her own hand, and the numbers were in fact off from what the cert says, she should either allow me to, at a minimum, pick another stone, or at a maximum, get a full refund and take my business elsewhere.

Thoughts?

 

[researcher]

I agree with you completely. The only thing to keep in mind is the CERT may be off--I've seen this before on the forum. Can you get the stone independently appraised? It would be GREAT if the vendor was correct and the cert was wrong. The best thing you can do is talk to the vendor on Monday and keep your fingers crossed that it will all work out in the end! Is there a money-back guarantee at this store?

 

[Stomp]

Not exactly....but kind of. I didn't buy it online, and further, is it "custom" if they had to make a larger setting (it's their standard setting though).

XXXXXXXX guarantees each and every item we sell for both quality and workmanship. We have a 100% no-hassle money-back guarantee if our customer is not satisfied within seven days of purchase on all jewelry items purchased online after time of receipt. Custom design orders are exempted. We even offer an exclusive unconditional diamond upgrade program that allows our customers to upgrade their bridal rings with a larger diamond. Specifically, it guarantees that the original center stone¹s purchase price will be applied in full towards an upgrade available at any time in the future.

XXX is not responsible for those items that show excessive wear, physical damage or abuse, whether accidental or otherwise. The insurance and protection of your purchased merchandise is solely the responsibility of the customer. XXX shall not be held liable for any loss, theft, or resulting damages that might occur.

 

[researcher]

If they stand by their word you should be fine--big sigh of relief

Give them a call tomorrow, and let us know what they say! I wish you luck!!!

 

[Stomp]

Thanks researcher - I'm correct about the numbers being way off, right?

 

[hoorray]

Is the number you are concerned abou the pavilion %? (43 vs 43.5)? I think the % is an average, and machines and their calibrations do vary, so It seems to me that this could easily be in the range of error margin that is reasonable.

Everything else checks out unless I am missing something. You have crown degrees from her and crown % from the EGL cert, so can't compare those, and the depth and table are the same. I get the difference of 1.1 vs 1.9 on the HCA, but both are under 2, and the HCA doesn't try for accuracy beyond that point.

If you love the stone, I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Stomp]

I'm getting a 3.7 - am I inputting the wrong numbers?

Depth: 62.5%
Table: 58%
Crown %: 14.9
Pavillion %: 43.5

Am I off on either of the last two?

 

[Patty]

Does the EGL cert give the pavillion angle?

I get mixed up sometimes between the pavillion angle and pavillion depth percentage because the numbers are usually both in the 40-43range.

 

[hoorray]

I had run it with the crown degrees, and just changed the pavilion % based on the 2 numbers you have. You are right, if you change the crown degrees to % it drops. FWIW, the HCA is supposed to be more accurate with degrees than with %. If you look at the AGA charts it gets either a 1A or 1B grading depending on the pavilion % used. It sounds as if you have a very nice stone, but if you aren't comfortable, maybe you sould take it to an apprasier who can help give you an objective evaluation of hte cut. (Make sure you ask if they do that -- not all appraisers are set up to focus on cut measurements).

 

[Stomp]

I actually don't have the cert - just the plastic folder w/ the basic numbers and the report number.

When I went to the report I actually got the numbers I posted - and they don't state anything besides what you see below: Any other experts?

 

[hoorray]

I'm not an expert on the numbers or HCA, so can't explain or analyze this one for you. I guess I'd either go back to the store and find our where the numbers she gave you came from, or I'd go to an appraiser and get an objective opinion. (Which I would do anyway -- especially with an EGL cert.) If price is your concern, not how it looks, run some searches to see how the price you paid compares to other comparable stones available. (The PS search engine is good for the.) If you are really uncomfortable with it, take it back and start over. It's a big purchase and you should feel good about it.

 

[Stomp]

Prics is not a huge issue - I initally ran some comps (when I assumed it was GIA since the other stone I had been looking at was GIA) and it looked like a screaming deal. Now it doesn't look like a great deal, but hey - it was B&M so I'll pay a bit more...not the end of the world.

But what I was so excited about (and still need to feel good about) is where it scores on the Holloway Cut Advisor. If the numbers on the cert don't stand up to the numbers she initially sold me on, then I feel like I've been ripped off. Sure, I like the stone, but I'm not feeling particularly good about the purchase now that I can't get it to score where it did before...I'm starting to think maybe I'm not overanalyzing based on different light conditions, but rather it might actually have issues (especially if it scores in the 3's.)

 

[researcher]

If you're not feeling good about the stone you're only real option is to contact the vendor and discuss your feelings. The worst thing would be to feel you settled on your stone or didn't get exactly what you want.

 

[Dancing Fire]

----------------
On 6/27/2004 3:32:55 PM Patty wrote:

Does the EGL cert give the pavillion angle?

I get mixed up sometimes between the pavillion angle and pavillion depth percentage because the numbers are usually both in the 40-43range.----------------

Patty
If EGL USA graded ideal cut it would show the full map just like AGS 0 cut cert. In other words, it would show all the details with illustration. In this case, the stone is not an ideal cut it would have a different looking cert

 

[Stomp]

Vtigger (or anybody else)...can you, to the best of your knowledge, confirm that this is pretty off from what was represented? In other words, am I out of the .5 - 1.5 (or even 2.0) range?

P.S. The cert is supposed to be mailed in the next few days. Yes - it is EGL USA.

Thanks.

 

[Stomp]

Here's my comparison - and why I'm confused on the Pavilion...it will only let me enter Pavilion of 43.5 as a percentage, and not an angle, because as an angle it says the girdle would be dangerously thin. Since I know the girdle is M-SL that can't be - which makes me think I need to enter the pavilion as the percentage - thus giving me that fantastic score of 3.7

 

[Stomp]

One more point - when I was in there talking with her I made it PAINFULLY obvious that I was doing my research AND that the fact that it was close to a TIC was very important to me. So even though I "accepted" it when I picked it up, I accepted it thinking the score/specs was different that what was actually the case - thanks to a (perhaps honest) mistake in how it was presented.

Would any vendors care to chime and let me know whether I'm acting unreasonably? Thanks so much - this is really eating me up inside. Especially since I'd like to have it resolved by next Saturday so I can do the deed on the trip up north we've planned.

 

[hoorray]

As far as I know, EGL reports paviliion depth (%), not angles. From what I see, the swing from 43% to 43.5% is causing a slight swing in the HCA, which is typical. It's using the crown % rather that angle that swings it from 3. I don't know why. The AGA show the crown % as a 1A, and the pavilion % as either 1A or 1B, depending on which measurement you use.

I think you are possibly giving too much weight to the HCA. Especially since you have the stone in hand and can let your eyes tell you if you think it is beautiful or not. (We sometimes have to remember that that's really the most important thing.) However, the mental part is a big part of "loving" the stone, so either call the vendor or an appraiser and sort this out. THe appraiser will be able to give you an objective opinion of the stone and it's cut. The vendor might be able to explain -- particularly if she made a mistake in the numbers she gave you.

 

[Dancing Fire]

----------------
On 6/27/2004 7:23:07 PM lop wrote:

As far as I know, EGL reports paviliion depth (%), not angles. From what I see, the swing from 43% to 43.5% is causing a slight swing in the HCA, which is typical. It's using the crown % rather that angle that swings it from 3. I don't know why. The AGA show the crown % as a 1A, and the pavilion % as either 1A or 1B, depending on which measurement you use.

I think you are possibly giving too much weight to the HCA. Especially since you have the stone in hand and can let your eyes tell you if you think it is beautiful or not. (We sometimes have to remember that that's really the most important thing.) However, the mental part is a big part of 'loving' the stone, so either call the vendor or an appraiser and sort this out. THe appraiser will be able to give you an objective opinion of the stone and it's cut. The vendor might be able to explain -- particularly if she made a mistake in the numbers she gave you.

----------------

Lop
If egl usa grade a stone ideal cut they will also show the crown & pavil angle on the cert.

 

[Stomp]

Hey Vtigger - would that also show up on the online report I pulled? I ask because she also assured me it was an ideal cut.

Thanks

I just don't think I can be happy w/ a diamond w/ that score - regardless of whether I thought it looked good (heck, it's the first diamond I've ever bought so I think they all pretty much look good.)

BTW, I can get an appraisal done very close to my work for $55...from a GIA Gemologist w/ his own lab. Perhaps this will help set me at ease...

 

[Dancing Fire]

----------------
On 6/28/2004 12:59:00 AM Stomp wrote:

Hey Vtigger - would that also show up on the online report I pulled? I ask because she also assured me it was an ideal cut.

Thanks

I just don't think I can be happy w/ a diamond w/ that score - regardless of whether I thought it looked good (heck, it's the first diamond I've ever bought so I think they all pretty much look good.)

BTW, I can get an appraisal done very close to my work for $55...from a GIA Gemologist w/ his own lab. Perhaps this will help set me at ease...----------------

Stomp,
based on the information your vendor gave you on the crown and pavilion angle, it scores a 1.3 hca.

the stone you are looking at is not a ags ideal cut because of the table at 58%and polish/symmetry is not ideal

yes, it is an ideal cut proportions based on egl standard.

NO, it's not an ideal cut because it requires polish /symmetry to be at least very good or ex based on egl standard

the information i got is read from the folder of my egl usa cert.don't pay attention to the UGS apprasial. my stone appriased at $6220, and i pay $1900 for it.i bought it based on one color grade lower and one clarity grade lower, in other words, my stone is an egl g vs2 ideal cut. i paid the same $1900 for an h si1 with gia cert, both stone have the same weight.72 ct.they were for earrings.

 

[valeria101]

Some time back I tried to run a few dozen stones with eitehr AGS or Sarn reports available ont he HCA using both percentages and numbers.... Aside a few examples, the scores for all stones were within 1 of each other. Exceptionally, the difference would get as large as 3. Percentages give more optimistic scores in almost all cases. Of course the little exercise has too many shortcommings to be called "evidence", and this is why I didn't post the results,

but it's a start.

So, according to the above-mentuioned, the set of measurements you have is a bit more "diverse" than the norm. Also, percentages are supposed to give overoptimistic HCA scores - but not that much more optimistic...

You do have the diamond at hand though - would it work to ask an appraiser's opinion or obtain an Ideal Scope view on it? The HCA can give results just as good as the numbers you plug in, and in this case I would be looking for an alternative already.