Fancy Colored Round Brilliants
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the best coloured diamond appearance is not achieved with the best colorless cut types
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True...
But when all is equal..., what would you rather own..., a modified (fancy-colored) cut for color retention or an excellent cut BR?
When the true color is in the material..., a colorless type cut will bring twice or even more $$$
So If I submit a Fancy Vivid Yellow (regular made) RB..., and the cut is graded Ex-Ex by GIA..., why not add all the other cut grade info.?
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How many of those have you ever seen?
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Fancy color diamonds are not cut to the specs of Ideal Round near colorless brilliants. They would appear less colored and therefore of less value. Generally speaking, fancy colored round diamonds are a little thick, or "lumpy" in make to reduce some white light return and to make our eyes think there is more depth of color, darkness, in the diamond. It is part of the cutter''s bag of tricks to give us the desired end result.
Now that the industry is color coating diamonds to create fancy colored diamonds, we can expect to see some close to ideal cut rounds in these treated varieties because the depth of color s more than sufficient not to have concerns over too much white light return masking the color applied to them. Similar effects on cutting were seen in irradiated fancy colors even 40 years ago. If a substantial amount iof color is present, the cutter can revert to near ideal standards without a problem. The main concern is focused on more borderline fancy colors where a tiny bit of darkness makes a substantial change in apparent color.
Now that the industry is color coating diamonds to create fancy colored diamonds, we can expect to see some close to ideal cut rounds in these treated varieties because the depth of color s more than sufficient not to have concerns over too much white light return masking the color applied to them. Similar effects on cutting were seen in irradiated fancy colors even 40 years ago. If a substantial amount iof color is present, the cutter can revert to near ideal standards without a problem. The main concern is focused on more borderline fancy colors where a tiny bit of darkness makes a substantial change in apparent color.
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I have seen quite a few...
Let say you have a 6.00 - 6.50 carat rough of a vivid color strength..., and free of inclusions.
You can choose two options...
1) to cut a 3.00 carat excellent cut round brilliant and still get the vivid grade...
2) to cut a 3.60-4.00 carat Fancy vivid colored (tricky) faceting type shaped (Radiant/Cushion).
Which would you cut?
Let say you have a 6.00 - 6.50 carat rough of a vivid color strength..., and free of inclusions.
You can choose two options...
1) to cut a 3.00 carat excellent cut round brilliant and still get the vivid grade...
2) to cut a 3.60-4.00 carat Fancy vivid colored (tricky) faceting type shaped (Radiant/Cushion).
Which would you cut?
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The cute answer is to cut the one worth the most money. The real answer is to cut the one that you have a sooner sale for. The faster you make a turn, the more you make during the year. "To satisfy YOUR customer" is probably a better course of action than trying to figure out which cut will get a slightly higher grade. However, for the collector, the right decision is to try to cut the rarest, most unusual stone. This unusual stone might not have as many potential future customers, but it is the kind of thing a collector strives to achieve.
Like so many other things, it is an individual decision. If everyone made the same decisions the diamond business would have one central supply and little real variety. I prefer the individual scenario.
Like so many other things, it is an individual decision. If everyone made the same decisions the diamond business would have one central supply and little real variety. I prefer the individual scenario.
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Now back to the point...
Hypothetically speaking...
If you have a Fancy Colored Round Brilliant Diamond (cut to colorless specifications), why in the world would GIA not issue a cut-grade as they would on colorless round Diamonds?
Any sensible answers?
Hypothetically speaking...
If you have a Fancy Colored Round Brilliant Diamond (cut to colorless specifications), why in the world would GIA not issue a cut-grade as they would on colorless round Diamonds?
Any sensible answers?
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As a consumer, I'd rather own the diamond that looked prettiest to me. Since I am a person who chooses moderation in most things, a diamond neither too dark nor too light would make me happiest. Someone else might prefer a lighter or deep color. Of course, I'd also want a sparkly, lively diamond which would be characteristic of a well cut diamond, but going for "ideal" proportions in a fancy is just not of utmost importance when "color" is the key factor of a "fancy" color.
As a consumer, one could easily be wrongly convinced by an "expert" that ideal cut is desirable even if it truly was not. Its easy to convince someone who trust you to guide them. It is your responsibility to give them good and correct guidance unbiased by your desire to sell them what you happen to have. Nothing at all wrong with a very fine, ideal cut of any color, but the reality is that they don't generally exist in fancy colored diamond due to the nature of diamond and its inherent light behavior.
A diamond dealer might be excited to consider the extra sales potential of ideal cut fancy color diamonds. I think that if you are selling synthetic diamonds, like the Gemesis products, which have very vivid colors, you could readily find and offer ideal cut synthetic fancy color diamonds. Finding natural colors of such a vivid nature would be pretty much impossible given the reality of how fancy colors are cut to enhance color over brilliancy.
If someone had a set of vivid fancy yellow diamonds, all ideal cut rounds, they would be highly sought after. Making a regular business of such material would be impossible. The Ideal cut for a fancy color diamond is rightly based on how beautiful the color looks by virtue of the cutter's skill, not by light return maximization which is key to colorless diamond grading's ideal cut.
As a consumer, one could easily be wrongly convinced by an "expert" that ideal cut is desirable even if it truly was not. Its easy to convince someone who trust you to guide them. It is your responsibility to give them good and correct guidance unbiased by your desire to sell them what you happen to have. Nothing at all wrong with a very fine, ideal cut of any color, but the reality is that they don't generally exist in fancy colored diamond due to the nature of diamond and its inherent light behavior.
A diamond dealer might be excited to consider the extra sales potential of ideal cut fancy color diamonds. I think that if you are selling synthetic diamonds, like the Gemesis products, which have very vivid colors, you could readily find and offer ideal cut synthetic fancy color diamonds. Finding natural colors of such a vivid nature would be pretty much impossible given the reality of how fancy colors are cut to enhance color over brilliancy.
If someone had a set of vivid fancy yellow diamonds, all ideal cut rounds, they would be highly sought after. Making a regular business of such material would be impossible. The Ideal cut for a fancy color diamond is rightly based on how beautiful the color looks by virtue of the cutter's skill, not by light return maximization which is key to colorless diamond grading's ideal cut.
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David, I know you or others here would not have the answer to this question..., but I do think it should be addressed and maybe someone from GIA is reading???Date: 11/15/2007 4:52:13 PM
Author: oldminer
As a consumer, I''d rather own the diamond that looked prettiest to me. Since I am a person who chooses moderation in most things, a diamond neither too dark nor too light would make me happiest. Someone else might prefer a lighter or deep color. Of course, I''d also want a sparkly, lively diamond which would be characteristic of a well cut diamond, but going for ''ideal'' proportions in a fancy is just not of utmost importance when ''color'' is the key factor of a ''fancy'' color.
I agree color is the most important factor when it comes to fancy colored Diamonds..., but then comes "cut"..., and based on my experience the majority of fancy colored Diamonds are poorly cut because color is first priority!!!
Naturally..., the thicker the girdle area of a colored Diamond..., the more color it retains. That together with the fact of painting the pavilion faceting/brillianteering to limit contrast appearance results in a Diamond which looks super lumpy, possesses the "face-up" color but lacks life or sparkle.
As a consumer, one could easily be wrongly convinced by an ''expert'' that ideal cut is desirable even if it truly was not. Its easy to convince someone who trust you to guide them. It is your responsibility to give them good and correct guidance unbiased by your desire to sell them what you happen to have. Nothing at all wrong with a very fine, ideal cut of any color, but the reality is that they don''t generally exist in fancy colored diamond due to the nature of diamond and its inherent light behavior.
You are pointing to ideal cuts..., I am talking about decent normal cuts as usually colorless Diamonds are cut by..., fancy cuts or rounds.
But please agree with me that when they exist (and they do) they fetch significantly higher prices than the ones cut to retain color.
I agree with you 100% that most fancy colored diamonds are cut with the "tricks" as you call them to retain color..., thats why I keep saying that the light fancy yellows (and even some fancy yellows) are actually modified cape colored Diamonds!!!
See this discussion: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-light-yellow-fancy-or-cape.66898/
A diamond dealer might be excited to consider the extra sales potential of ideal cut fancy color diamonds. I think that if you are selling synthetic diamonds, like the Gemesis products, which have very vivid colors, you could readily find and offer ideal cut synthetic fancy color diamonds. Finding natural colors of such a vivid nature would be pretty much impossible given the reality of how fancy colors are cut to enhance color over brilliancy.
Again..., I am talking about decent normal cuts as applied to colorless Diamonds (not specifically ideal cuts).
They dont have to be vivid..., even intense or fancy possessing a regular cut would command hefty premiums vs. its cut-for-color fancy colored Diamonds.
It is true..., they are rare..., but when around..., they are jumped on.
If someone had a set of vivid fancy yellow diamonds, all ideal cut rounds, they would be highly sought after. Making a regular business of such material would be impossible. The Ideal cut for a fancy color diamond is rightly based on how beautiful the color looks by virtue of the cutter''s skill, not by light return maximization which is key to colorless diamond grading''s ideal cut.
Good..., now back to my original question...
If they would be highly sought after..., and probably be worth more than their cut-for-color counterparts... (sometimes even more than the colorless ones, even "D''s"), why would GIA not issue a cut grade to go with its grading report???
Some thinking material..., no?
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If the GIA gave a cut grade to fancy color rounds it would serve to highlight the natural premium that dealers and collectors would willingly pay for. However, the majority of these stones are not ideal cut and might serve to negatively impact their value when the market currently does not so strongly react. I'm not sure of the overall economic impact and maybe GIA isn't sure either. For that reason and maybe for other reasons, too, the GIA has chosen not to offer the cut grade for fancy color rounds. If they are reading this thread maybe someone will reply. It is a good question that interests many of us.
Certainly, many diamonds face up with more color when cut to non-ideal proportions and still look very beautiful in the overall.
Certainly, many diamonds face up with more color when cut to non-ideal proportions and still look very beautiful in the overall.
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Beauty is in the eye....
I personally think an intense colored "smooth pebble" type rough Diamond looks more beautiful than a polished one..., but thats just me.
But I can say that the majority of the "tricky" fancy colored cuts I have seen are badly balanced and possess "tricky" symmetry.
The GIA passes/grades the symmetry of these cuts as "good" due to the "tricky" techniques cutters use to lign-up facet junctions.
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On the surface, we are told how the non-profit educational arm of the GIA is there to benefit the industry. This is very true and few who have studied with GIA would question the value of their GIA education.
Underlying this, is a laboratory branch which makes a very tidy sum and whose main cliientele are dealers and high volume users. One could only assume the large customers are the ones that have to be nurtured and catered to. The competition is fierce and the pressure is always on. It is the same in most any other field, too. The little guy usually plays second fiddle to the larger, more financially important client. I don''t know of any instance where this does not apply and have no reason to think only the diamond lab business is somehow different.
The protection of consumers is left mostly in the hands of knowledgeable vendors and independent advisers. State laws and a few federal protections exist along with credit card purchase protection rules. The free market is a dangerous place for the uninformed or impulsive buyer.
Underlying this, is a laboratory branch which makes a very tidy sum and whose main cliientele are dealers and high volume users. One could only assume the large customers are the ones that have to be nurtured and catered to. The competition is fierce and the pressure is always on. It is the same in most any other field, too. The little guy usually plays second fiddle to the larger, more financially important client. I don''t know of any instance where this does not apply and have no reason to think only the diamond lab business is somehow different.
The protection of consumers is left mostly in the hands of knowledgeable vendors and independent advisers. State laws and a few federal protections exist along with credit card purchase protection rules. The free market is a dangerous place for the uninformed or impulsive buyer.
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The "sensible" answer is that it would be misleading to the consumer to give it a cut grade. It would give the appearence that the GIA considers cut in it''s grading of the coloured diamond''s color.
I think Gary said it best "the best coloured diamond aprearance is not achieved with the best colorless cut types"
I would not think you would get the most beautiful look in a ruby or sapphire by cutting it to what some consider the ideal cut for a round coloreless diamond, the same holds true for color in a diamond. Like it has already been said, color is the key, and the beauty and allure of a coloured diamond is often brought out of the stone by the masterful cutter adding an extra facet here, or a shallow angle there. Unlike white diamonds, which many in the cutting world are trying to make more of a science, cutting a coloured diamond is an art. Okay, there may be a lot of luck involved too. I sincerley hope we never get to the point where we see a cut grade on a coloured diamond report. That would only exist to be a somewhat misleading sales tool. They are in a lot of ways judging the cut on the color grade they give it. If the cutter did a good job, the lab comes back with the vivd or intense or deep the cutter was looking for, if they do a poor job, what could have been intense, may only face up to be a fancy. It seems to me (and maybe it''s just me getting older), but we keep trying to fit everything into neat little formulas, and our losing our ability to see and judge beauty, and that is where the true value lies.
David
I think Gary said it best "the best coloured diamond aprearance is not achieved with the best colorless cut types"
I would not think you would get the most beautiful look in a ruby or sapphire by cutting it to what some consider the ideal cut for a round coloreless diamond, the same holds true for color in a diamond. Like it has already been said, color is the key, and the beauty and allure of a coloured diamond is often brought out of the stone by the masterful cutter adding an extra facet here, or a shallow angle there. Unlike white diamonds, which many in the cutting world are trying to make more of a science, cutting a coloured diamond is an art. Okay, there may be a lot of luck involved too. I sincerley hope we never get to the point where we see a cut grade on a coloured diamond report. That would only exist to be a somewhat misleading sales tool. They are in a lot of ways judging the cut on the color grade they give it. If the cutter did a good job, the lab comes back with the vivd or intense or deep the cutter was looking for, if they do a poor job, what could have been intense, may only face up to be a fancy. It seems to me (and maybe it''s just me getting older), but we keep trying to fit everything into neat little formulas, and our losing our ability to see and judge beauty, and that is where the true value lies.
David
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David..., I see and understand where you are coming from..., but let me add some...
I was (and still am) wondering why GIA does not give a cut grade to fancy colored round brilliant Diamonds..., why differentiate a grading report between colored or colorless round brilliant cuts? Its the same cutting style and its the same material..., Diamond!!!
You write: "the beauty and allure of a coloured diamond is often brought out of the stone by the masterful cutter..."
I agree..., but again..., mother nature has an important role in the equation. Cutting yellow capes into light fancy or fancy is (in my opinion) just a marketing tool to fetch more $$$. Thats why I asked above who does the GIA serve..., the sellers or buyers???
Dont get me wrong David..., I am not a great believer of the science part of the grading at all..., colorless or colored!!!
,
And I believe that cutting Diamonds is an art..., colorless or colored!!! Luck is always a part of the cutting equation in both colored and colorless Diamonds
(yes, I know... in colored Diamonds the risks are significantly greater.)
But I must disagree with you that the outcome of the Diamond and the color grade the Lab''s issue dont show if the cutter was doing a good job or not. There are just too many factors to take into considerations.
But all that aside..., if the rough material truly possesses the true color intensity...,
a beautifully proportioned cut would always be more sought-after and prized vs. the "tricky" cuts that master cutters practice to capture color.
And it doesnt matter what colored gem material you are talking about..., let it be Diamonds, Emeralds, Rubies etc.., etc...
First of all..., I am reminding the fact that I am not talking about ideal cut specifically..., but I am talking about beautiful cuts in general! cuts that are used on Diamonds..., colorless or colored.
I was (and still am) wondering why GIA does not give a cut grade to fancy colored round brilliant Diamonds..., why differentiate a grading report between colored or colorless round brilliant cuts? Its the same cutting style and its the same material..., Diamond!!!
You write: "the beauty and allure of a coloured diamond is often brought out of the stone by the masterful cutter..."
I agree..., but again..., mother nature has an important role in the equation. Cutting yellow capes into light fancy or fancy is (in my opinion) just a marketing tool to fetch more $$$. Thats why I asked above who does the GIA serve..., the sellers or buyers???
Dont get me wrong David..., I am not a great believer of the science part of the grading at all..., colorless or colored!!!
And I believe that cutting Diamonds is an art..., colorless or colored!!! Luck is always a part of the cutting equation in both colored and colorless Diamonds
(yes, I know... in colored Diamonds the risks are significantly greater.)
But I must disagree with you that the outcome of the Diamond and the color grade the Lab''s issue dont show if the cutter was doing a good job or not. There are just too many factors to take into considerations.
But all that aside..., if the rough material truly possesses the true color intensity...,
a beautifully proportioned cut would always be more sought-after and prized vs. the "tricky" cuts that master cutters practice to capture color.
And it doesnt matter what colored gem material you are talking about..., let it be Diamonds, Emeralds, Rubies etc.., etc...
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The earth is flat DG
and
http://octonus.com/oct/projects/poster_2006.phtml
You can remain a ludite if you wish DG, but there is pleanty of real tangible practicale evidence
I believe before we discussed the excellent Gems & Gemology article from about 2 years ago that showed how bad symmetry in a round dramatically improves color (just as another example).
http://oct.gemology.ru/oct/projects/fancycolor-7.phtmlDate: 11/16/2007 6:30:26 PM
Author: DiaGem
Dont get me wrong David..., I am not a great believer of the science part of the grading at all..., colorless or colored!!!,
And I believe that cutting Diamonds is an art..., colorless or colored!!! Luck is always a part of the cutting equation in both colored and colorless Diamonds
and
http://octonus.com/oct/projects/poster_2006.phtml
You can remain a ludite if you wish DG, but there is pleanty of real tangible practicale evidence
I believe before we discussed the excellent Gems & Gemology article from about 2 years ago that showed how bad symmetry in a round dramatically improves color (just as another example).
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I know..., I know...,Date: 11/16/2007 7:20:05 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
The earth is flat DG
http://oct.gemology.ru/oct/projects/fancycolor-7.phtmlDate: 11/16/2007 6:30:26 PM
Author: DiaGem
Dont get me wrong David..., I am not a great believer of the science part of the grading at all..., colorless or colored!!!,
And I believe that cutting Diamonds is an art..., colorless or colored!!! Luck is always a part of the cutting equation in both colored and colorless Diamonds
and
http://octonus.com/oct/projects/poster_2006.phtml
You can remain a ludite if you wish DG, but there is pleanty of real tangible practicale evidence
I believe before we discussed the excellent Gems & Gemology article from about 2 years ago that showed how bad symmetry in a round dramatically improves color (just as another example).
I am certain there will come a day you cut-nuts will adapt science to fancy colored cuts too...
Thats why I cant figure out why fancy colored RB''s are not part of the "cut-nut" equation.
You know me by now..., I measure the beauty of Diamonds a bit differently...
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For example:Date: 11/16/2007 7:40:22 PM
Author: DiaGem
I know..., I know...,Date: 11/16/2007 7:20:05 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
The earth is flat DG
http://oct.gemology.ru/oct/projects/fancycolor-7.phtmlDate: 11/16/2007 6:30:26 PM
Author: DiaGem
Dont get me wrong David..., I am not a great believer of the science part of the grading at all..., colorless or colored!!!,
And I believe that cutting Diamonds is an art..., colorless or colored!!! Luck is always a part of the cutting equation in both colored and colorless Diamonds
and
http://octonus.com/oct/projects/poster_2006.phtml
You can remain a ludite if you wish DG, but there is pleanty of real tangible practicale evidence
I believe before we discussed the excellent Gems & Gemology article from about 2 years ago that showed how bad symmetry in a round dramatically improves color (just as another example).
I am certain there will come a day you cut-nuts will adapt science to fancy colored cuts too...
Thats why I cant figure out why fancy colored RB''s are not part of the ''cut-nut'' equation.
You know me by now..., I measure the beauty of Diamonds a bit differently...
If it was up to me..., I wouldnt cut this beauty...
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Definetly the rough, and i can understand why.
This would have been a wonderful case study for us.
But the lesthoto stone needs to be cut into several stones to make a return on it
This would have been a wonderful case study for us.
But the lesthoto stone needs to be cut into several stones to make a return on it
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I am not certain...
Graff paid around $21K per carat for a 493 carat rough that based on what I see in the picture is of high color..., and of comfortable shape.
I have seen white rough Diamonds sell at around the same per carat price and weigh as low as 25 carats..., (yes, they were confirmed as high clarity''s)
I actually think (my opinion only) Graff bought good..., but naturally with such a heavy total value, it would eliminate a lot of the players out of the game.
But again..., until closer inspection of the clarity..., you might be 100% right!
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