To milk or not to milk?

[galeteia]

Date: 8/9/2006 3:51:49 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
I'm with the moderation crowd. I mean honestly, tons of people living in Asia have been eating soy for a very long time and to my knowledge it doesn't give them higher rates of breast cancer...


And I read a long time ago in SciAm that the mutation for the lactose operon is the single fastest spreading mutation in the human race. Generally only positive mutations spread...so I imagine being able to eat dairy must have SOME advantages!


And to say all grains are bad for you irritates me....honestly, how do we come to the conclusion that wheat bread is BAD for you?? (unless you have a gluten allergy, which I think is fairly rare)

Actually, I believe it's a lot more common than people think. It seems to be getting a lot worse lately-- I've met tons of people in the last 5 years who have gluten intolerances, sensitivities or allergies, or Celiac or Crohn's disease. I knew a few families who were so allergic to gluten they couldn't even eat french fries cooked in oil that had been used for battered foods. Although there is no proven correlation between Crohn's disease and diet (according to the wikipedia) and it is supposedly rare "affecting fewer than one person in 10,000 in Europe and North America" I knew two people who had it... in a town of 7,000. Both had to avoid gluten like the plague. They weren't related. Unless we wound up with a super-high concentration of it, maybe those stats are outdated?

Neither my housemate or I do well with gluten-rich foods, especially refined flour. We were fine with it until we started university, and after four years of student staples like bread and pasta, our bodies just won't tolerate it anymore. If I eat even a whole-grain bagel, I'm clutching my middle wishing my innards would just hurry up and kill me and get it over with. Her symptoms are even worse. *wince* I'll spare you the details.

I agree with you, Rainbowtrout, that saying 'all grains are bad for you' is going overboard. There are plenty of unrefined grains out there... like quinoa. I can't do wheat anymore at all, but I can eat wholegrain rice like brown, wild, or basmati rice. Rice flour and white rice (sushi! I miss you so!

) are out for me, but I still make sure I'm eating a balance of grains, protein, and veggies.

I think extremism doesn't work well for food. Up here in Canada, the Milk Marketing Board actually blocked soy from being added to the Canada Food Guide as an alternative to dairy back when I was in highschool. Scary. It's a business, so people are told that milk is necessary and good for everyone, and that's just not true. People need to figure out what works best for them.


ETA: Another tidbit; I read that the new information about soy being hazardous for people's health was linked to how much of a certain kind of fat they had. So soy was not good for obsese North Amercians, but fine for those without significant fat stores.

 

[Mandarine]

yep....I''m just not sure about Mercola either...

All this talk about milk has me craving some!....hahaha..and I never drink a glass of milk unless I have allergies! (it''s always more a compliment to something else...cereal, coffee, etc).

Thank you all for your responses ...not that we all agreed to something (I wasn''t expecting we would), but I did learn a bunch!!!

M~

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 8/9/2006 6:56:20 PM
Author: Galateia

Date: 8/9/2006 3:51:49 PM

Actually, I believe it's a lot more common than people think. It seems to be getting a lot worse lately-- I've met tons of people in the last 5 years who have gluten intolerances, sensitivities or allergies, or Celiac or Crohn's disease. I knew a few families who were so allergic to gluten they couldn't even eat french fries cooked in oil that had been used for battered foods. Although there is no proven correlation between Crohn's disease and diet (according to the wikipedia) and it is supposedly rare 'affecting fewer than one person in 10,000 in Europe and North America' I knew two people who had it... in a town of 7,000. Both had to avoid gluten like the plague. They weren't related. Unless we wound up with a super-high concentration of it, maybe those stats are outdated?


Neither my housemate or I do well with gluten-rich foods, especially refined flour. We were fine with it until we started university, and after four years of student staples like bread and pasta, our bodies just won't tolerate it anymore. If I eat even a whole-grain bagel, I'm clutching my middle wishing my innards would just hurry up and kill me and get it over with. Her symptoms are even worse. *wince* I'll spare you the details.


I agree with you, Rainbowtrout, that saying 'all grains are bad for you' is going overboard. There are plenty of unrefined grains out there... like quinoa. I can't do wheat anymore at all, but I can eat wholegrain rice like brown, wild, or basmati rice. Rice flour and white rice (sushi! I miss you so!

) are out for me, but I still make sure I'm eating a balance of grains, protein, and veggies.


I think extremism doesn't work well for food. Up here in Canada, the Milk Marketing Board actually blocked soy from being added to the Canada Food Guide as an alternative to dairy back when I was in highschool. Scary. It's a business, so people are told that milk is necessary and good for everyone, and that's just not true. People need to figure out what works best for them.



ETA: Another tidbit; I read that the new information about soy being hazardous for people's health was linked to how much of a certain kind of fat they had. So soy was not good for obsese North Amercians, but fine for those without significant fat stores.

That's very interesting--FI's sister has a terrible case of Chron's, and I have never heard anyone mention that there was a gluten link. I thought that was just Celiac Sprue. I've requested that FI try avoiding gluten, but like classic Chron's cases, his stomach troubles fluctuate and are rarely tied to one type of food (lactose excepted).

Maybe the increasing sensitivites aren't to gluten itself but to something added to all the processed/white bread a lot of people eat growing up? Hm, really have no idea. Have you tried bread you make yourself as compared to store bought?



ETA: I wonder if--as pasta and processed bread are cheaper now than whole grain bread and such--more people are becoming oversensitised? I know it can be hard as a student to maintain healthy variety--it sure as heck takes a lot of time.

 

[DonaBella]

I really feel its best to eat things in moderation and not go too much with one crowd or another. I let my body tell me what I need and take supplements but on a weekly basis. I love water, but I can get nauseated from just drinking water so I shake things up a tad with a squeeze of lemon or a slice of orange or lime or even a fruited water from the store. Its not a crime and it won''t kill me to have a soda once in a while if I really want it.

I am a fish eating person but cannot totally jump on the whole sushi thing. I love really lean beef but have to really want it. I love salads, but even those can be samo if you don''t vary what you use in the produce department.

I won''t not eat edamame(sp?) or tofu if I want it, but I don''t have the same food everyday either.

I do not allow myself to get too tightly wound about any food except fried food. It is something I eat very sparingly cuz my tummy does not do well with it. Again, listening to my body.

 

[partgypsy]

I''m definitely of the camp that believes having a varied healthy diet is key, and not demonize one or more foods, like dairy products, or bread for matter, things that we have been eating since the dawn of civilization! Personally I don''t think that drinking raw milk is a healthier alternative than pastuerized milk, unless you don''t mind gambling with getting a serious bacterial infection.

As far as the rates of crohn''s disease and allergies, one thing I wonder is simply is there more of this or are people being diagnosed more with these illnesses? In my small office there was one person diagnosed with chron''s colitis/irritable bowe/, whatever you want to call it, the other went to alternative health specialist and for $500 was diagnosed with having allergies to about a DOZEN food products. She now eats a severly restricted diet and sometimes has nothing for lunch because she has nothing she can eat, but swears she gets ill if she eats any of the forbidden foods she only learned about a year ago.
I''m sure I''m going to offend someone, but while it''s good to be informed, all these obsessions about allergies and diets and obsessively researching foods can turn into just another kind of eating disorder.

 

[galeteia]

Rainbowtrout: I know that my housemate can't do refined carbs (or sugar in general) because it breaks down into sugar too fast and the yeast in her digestive tract go crazy, resulting in very unfun digestive irritation. *Tip-toes around TMI* So I'm not sure if it's that gluten weakened the already weak systems of those with Chron's disease, or maybe that it triggers a yeast-party and the sufferers I know avoided it for that reason? I should have asked... but I didn't want to pry.

I have made bread myself (white) and also my sweetie has made wholegrain/rye breads and it's all the same to my innards-- unrefined or not, wheat = rumble in the jungle.

I never had much refined wheat growing up (bread was always the german varieties you buy at the store) so when I went to school and started filling up on refined wheat, things went downhill fast.

DeannaBana: You're right, it all comes down to "listening to [your] body". I refrain from standing up and cheering, because I'm at work. But that really is the key.

Part Gypsy: I understand that it can seem like people are encouraged to become hypocondriacs, but I genuinely believe that things are getting worse. Our enviroment is becoming more and more polluted, and our food is far less nutritious over average than it was in our grandparents' day. These things are adding up. More and more people are being affected. People are now dying because of 'food allergies'; someone used tongs to serve fries that had handled cheese for poutine, and the dairy contamination killed a girl who had a severe allergy. Peanuts, shellfish, eggs; these things that people take for granted are fatal for some people.

And those are the extreme cases. Surely there will be a wide spectrum of sensitivity? For me, my food allergies and sensitivities are accumulative; once won't hurt me, but a few times a week will weaken my immune system. So I am vigilant, and avoid the things that will wear me down.

And as for your co-worker who "swears she gets ill if she eats any of the forbidden foods she only learned about a year ago", I would like to tell you about my housemate. She is italian, so she grew up with a diet heavy with pastas and breads. She had a few health problems, like a sinusitis infection that she was told she would live with for the rest of her life, serious excess weight, especially in the 'most unhealthy' areas, constant fatigue, blinding sinus headaches, mental fog, memory loss... but the final straw was the horrible digestive upsets she started getting every day regardless of what she ate. So she started doing some research, and then went to a health professional to find out what changes she would have to make. Lots. No refined carbs, no sugar.

She kicked up a bit of a fuss after she was put on a Candida diet, but her problems are gone. Her excess weight is melting off for the first time, too. And when she eats something she shouldn't, WHAM!-- right back to her old symptoms. So she knows what she can and cannot do, because the 'coast is clear'; she isn't constantly ill from what she ate last week, so now she notices when she eats something she can't have. Before, those signals were getting lost in the 'white noise'.

I agree that people can become 'alarmist' about their issues, and that some people will use them as a crutch, but the same is true of many ailments and it's crucial that people realize that these problems are real and can have devastating effects. I'll bet that cafeteria worker wouldn't have been so careless if s/he had realized that there was someone with a fatal dairy allergy nearby. But people don't take it seriously.

 

[Mandarine]

Date: 8/10/2006 4:30:36 PM
Author: part gypsy
I''m definitely of the camp that believes having a varied healthy diet is key, and not demonize one or more foods, like dairy products, or bread for matter, things that we have been eating since the dawn of civilization! Personally I don''t think that drinking raw milk is a healthier alternative than pastuerized milk, unless you don''t mind gambling with getting a serious bacterial infection.

As far as the rates of crohn''s disease and allergies, one thing I wonder is simply is there more of this or are people being diagnosed more with these illnesses? In my small office there was one person diagnosed with chron''s colitis/irritable bowe/, whatever you want to call it, the other went to alternative health specialist and for $500 was diagnosed with having allergies to about a DOZEN food products. She now eats a severly restricted diet and sometimes has nothing for lunch because she has nothing she can eat, but swears she gets ill if she eats any of the forbidden foods she only learned about a year ago.
I''m sure I''m going to offend someone, but while it''s good to be informed, all these obsessions about allergies and diets and obsessively researching foods can turn into just another kind of eating disorder.

Amen!!!!......you''re definitely not offending (at least not offending me!). My FMIL sends me articles on what I should and should not eat or use ALL the time!.....this is how I know about Dr. Mercola!!! TOO extreme!. I had never heard of calling this another kind of eating disorder, but I think that pretty much is what it is.

I do believe it is good to be informed though, but take it with a grain of salt. Like I said from the beginning, I won''t stop including milk in my cereal and my cafe con leche! but I do wonder what else is out there and will be willing to try it.

I for one, can''t stop myself from eating! hahaha. I like pretty much everything and will try everything (except any kind of bugs or weird meats) hehe.

 

[rainbowtrout]

Galateia"

I'm sympathetic to your roommate, but it still doesn't sound like a classic Chron's problem to me--I wonder if perhaps she has, like you said, a yeast problem or a wheat allergy instead? Chron's is often misdiagnosed bc it can mimic other problems.

I'm not an expert AT ALL, but FI's sister is literally in textbooks, her case is so bad. So I know a little bit about the disease, but I mostly know about the "worst case" scenarios...

So here's my confusion: Chron's is usually strictly diagnosed by a series of ulcers along the small bowel, colon, and/or stomach (stomach/jejunum is more rare). The body attacks itself and seems to have an autoimmune response to ITSELF--not so much to food, although it may attack bacteria in the small instestine and colon, mistaking them for intruders. CCFA actually recommends that sufferers of Chrons not avoid any particular foods unless they notice a problem. It's not an "allergy" like we think of it. Lisa has been on IV food only for a month and her bowel didn't heal that much... Of course, she avoids very rich, fatty, or sugary foods because they are hard to digest. This is mostly because of her ostomy though, and of course the bowel irritation.

Now, it makes sense to me that if your bowel microbes are being attacked by your immune system, the LAST thing you want to eat is anything that would fuel yeast. Maybe that is where her problem is coming from...but her bowel is STILL inflamed if she actually has Chron's, not eating these products just keeps the symptoms "under the radar"

Also, are you allergic to *wheat* or to *gluten* ?

 

[rainbowtrout]

Date: 8/10/2006 6:01:16 PM
Author: Mandarine

Date: 8/10/2006 4:30:36 PM

Author: part gypsy

I''m definitely of the camp that believes having a varied healthy diet is key, and not demonize one or more foods, like dairy products, or bread for matter, things that we have been eating since the dawn of civilization! Personally I don''t think that drinking raw milk is a healthier alternative than pastuerized milk, unless you don''t mind gambling with getting a serious bacterial infection.


As far as the rates of crohn''s disease and allergies, one thing I wonder is simply is there more of this or are people being diagnosed more with these illnesses? In my small office there was one person diagnosed with chron''s colitis/irritable bowe/, whatever you want to call it, the other went to alternative health specialist and for $500 was diagnosed with having allergies to about a DOZEN food products. She now eats a severly restricted diet and sometimes has nothing for lunch because she has nothing she can eat, but swears she gets ill if she eats any of the forbidden foods she only learned about a year ago.

I''m sure I''m going to offend someone, but while it''s good to be informed, all these obsessions about allergies and diets and obsessively researching foods can turn into just another kind of eating disorder.

Amen!!!!......you''re definitely not offending (at least not offending me!). My FMIL sends me articles on what I should and should not eat or use ALL the time!.....this is how I know about Dr. Mercola!!! TOO extreme!. I had never heard of calling this another kind of eating disorder, but I think that pretty much is what it is.


I do believe it is good to be informed though, but take it with a grain of salt. Like I said from the beginning, I won''t stop including milk in my cereal and my cafe con leche! but I do wonder what else is out there and will be willing to try it.


I for one, can''t stop myself from eating! hahaha. I like pretty much everything and will try everything (except any kind of bugs or weird meats) hehe.

I''m always torn on these issues. I was raised by two total health nuts and it was "don''t eat this, don''t eat that," every week...

OTOH, like Galateia said, the propaganda put out by ALL major food industries is shameful. It''s hard to know what''s right for you unless you try it--and I try not to get an attitdue of "you''re making it up" towards all alternative medicine, because some of it really works--and some of what our doctors tell us is hooey.

Hmp, which is a long way of saying that lord only knows what we should eat!

 

[Mandarine]

hehehe...just posted here saying how my FMIL sends me articles on what I should not eat or use and I got an email from her saying to make sure my shampoo or lotions don''t have anything that ends in "paraben" because it will cause breast cancer...

True? no idea, just thought it was a funny coincidence!

* I did just check my face lotion and it has a bunch of ingridients ending in paraben....hmmmm.....ignorance is bliss

*



M~

 

[Mandarine]

hehehe RT...

My great grandma lived until she was 96 (may her soul rest in peace!)....and she would eat EVERYTHING!....you know, old Spanish generation...lots of wine, bread, cheese, chorizo....aww...the good life! hehe

 

[galeteia]

Date: 8/10/2006 6:07:24 PM
Author: rainbowtrout
Galateia''

I''m sympathetic to your roommate, but it still doesn''t sound like a classic Chron''s problem to me--I wonder if perhaps she has, like you said, a yeast problem or a wheat allergy instead? Chron''s is often misdiagnosed bc it can mimic other problems.

I''m not an expert AT ALL, but FI''s sister is literally in textbooks, her case is so bad. So I know a little bit about the disease, but I mostly know about the ''worst case'' scenarios...

So here''s my confusion: Chron''s is usually strictly diagnosed by a series of ulcers along the small bowel, colon, and/or stomach (stomach/jejunum is more rare). The body attacks itself and seems to have an autoimmune response to ITSELF--not so much to food, although it may attack bacteria in the small instestine and colon, mistaking them for intruders. CCFA actually recommends that sufferers of Chrons not avoid any particular foods unless they notice a problem. It''s not an ''allergy'' like we think of it. Lisa has been on IV food only for a month and her bowel didn''t heal that much... Of course, she avoids very rich, fatty, or sugary foods because they are hard to digest. This is mostly because of her ostomy though, and of course the bowel irritation.

Now, it makes sense to me that if your bowel microbes are being attacked by your immune system, the LAST thing you want to eat is anything that would fuel yeast. Maybe that is where her problem is coming from...but her bowel is STILL inflamed if she actually has Chron''s, not eating these products just keeps the symptoms ''under the radar''

Also, are you allergic to *wheat* or to *gluten* ?

Whoops! I didn''t mean to imply she has Chron''s, RT, beacuse she doesn''t; she has Candida. I should have been more clear... silly me.

What I meant was that since refined carbs can cause yeast flare-ups in people'' digestive systems (like my housemate) maybe that''s why the two people I knew with Chron''s couldn''t eat them?

I''m sorry to hear about your FSIL''s health issues; even knowing how bad it was for those I knew, I don''t want to think about how bad it must be to wind up in a textbook!

I was wondering if maybe they avoided refined carbs because they were hard on the digestive system, possibly from the yeast?

As for my own sensitivity to wheat, it seems that I can handle grains low in gluten (like wholegrain rice) but I can''t handle wheat at all. The higher the gluten content of the grain, the more my innards rebel. When I have wheat, the protest turns nasty. Among other things, it... um... gums up my system. I seem to handle sugars just fine, although that''s mostly from fruit and occasionally honey.

It is really difficult to know what to eat, and it seems to just be getting more and more complicated. I failed the ''diet'' tests in Home Ec because I didn''t put enough dairy in my diet.

Amazing how things have changed in just 10 years!

 

[partgypsy]

Sorry if I was being too harsh or unsympathetic. I honestly do feel people suffer from these problems, and I can understand why people want to learn more when they have these problems. And unlike genetic propensities, diet and exercise are something that can be changed. My prejudice is just that a varied diet is more healthy than an overly restrictive diet.

It''s interesting about the italian women that had all these problems and then found out it was the excess pasta and bread. The italian american diet is actually quite different from the mediterrean italian diet. It reminds me of American Indians or Hispanics who have gone from a very low refined diet to a high refined diet and diabetes then skyrocketing. In the same way, on my father''s side of the family which is Greek, those who moved to the US and have a more american diet suddenly have all this heart disease show up. However my mother (german/swiss/polish american mongrel) eats the typical high fat high meat american diet (though she does always eat vegetables with her meals) has normal blood pressure, cholesterol etc. although I feel she eats an unhealthy diet she somehow gets away with it (at least so far!).