Shootings at UCSB

[momhappy]

Australia is many times safer than the US - we got rid of the right to carry arms and people were asked to hand in their guns under gun amnesties. People who need guns like farmers or professions where you need them still have them but it is very strictly regulated. I know people in the US love their guns but from someone looking in from the outside the answer seems pretty obvious..... stricter gun control and tighter gun laws do decrease the incidence of gun related crime - it IS that simple. We still have violent crimes and we also have rare massacres however, they happen less frequently here because we have less guns on the streets.

Isn't saying that stricter gun control has led to less gun-related crime stating the obvious? Less guns obviously lead to less gun-related crimes. However, Australia still has it's fair share of violent crime. I read of one city being dubbed "the stabbing capitol of Australia" at one time (I believe it was 2008?).

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I liked a lot of what Sky said. It is a combination of mental illness and lack of regard for human life..basic morality.

People who want to commit suicide certainly do not need a gun. They can take pills, alcohol, etc. and accomplish their goal. Criminals will always have guns, and I'd prefer that some good people also have some to balance that out a bit. It would be a far easier job for criminals to break in your house if they knew there were no guns present.

I worked for years in a school with a classroom of emotionally and behaviorally disturbed kids. Many came from bad homes but certainly not all. I know some are now in jail. One is in jail for running his car into a former girl schoolmate as she jogged down a road near her home. She survived but spent a few weeks in the hospital and had months of therapy after that. So really, you cannot stop mentally ill people from doing harm to themselves and others. Although our mental health system is very inadequate and should be improved.

 

[AGBF]

I'm afraid of violence, but I know nobody personally who has been affected by gun violence. There is too much of it in the US, but I've never encountered it personally. It may be partly because I've lived in quiet, relatively safe areas after escaping big city life long ago.

I do. What's scary is that I know of three stories involving guns and people I personally know.

Do you want to know what's sad? I take gun violence so much for granted that it never even occurred to me to do what katharath did and take an inventory of the ways in which gun violence had touched my life. By the way, I live in a quiet suburb in Connecticut.

I immediately thought of my best friend's nephew when started to think of who, in my life, had been touched by guns. At age 13 he was shot and killed by a schoolmate who was "showing" him his shotgun in his house in our affluent suburb. He was shot in the throat and died instantly. They both went to an élite boys prep school in town.

Then I recalled that about ten years ago when my father was still walking for exercise in our "safe" neighborhood very early in the morning (at about 5 AM) two men in a car stopped and one pointed a gun out the window at him and cocked it. I don't even know the significance of cocking a gun, but my father was in the army eons ago (serving in World War II), so I guess one knows about things like that if one goes through basic training.

Deb/AGBF

 

[justginger]

Australia is many times safer than the US - we got rid of the right to carry arms and people were asked to hand in their guns under gun amnesties. People who need guns like farmers or professions where you need them still have them but it is very strictly regulated. I know people in the US love their guns but from someone looking in from the outside the answer seems pretty obvious..... stricter gun control and tighter gun laws do decrease the incidence of gun related crime - it IS that simple. We still have violent crimes and we also have rare massacres however, they happen less frequently here because we have less guns on the streets.

Isn't saying that stricter gun control has led to less gun-related crime stating the obvious? Less guns obviously lead to less gun-related crimes. However, Australia still has it's fair share of violent crime. I read of one city being dubbed "the stabbing capitol of Australia" at one time (I believe it was 2008?).

The murder rate of the US is FIFTY SEVEN times higher than Australia. There is something clearly wrong in the States.

Alice Springs is the 'stabbing capital' to which you refer. It is important in discussions to be able to compare apples to apples, and the States don't have a version of Alice. It's an outback 'city' of 20,000 people, with a quarter of the population being Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, with regular events just short of tribal warfare breaking out. The surrounding communities for hundreds of miles are dry, so Alice attracts transient alcoholics, and even resident alcoholics of other places on the weekends. They show up to play/watch football, get outrageously drunk, and start fights. If firearms were allowed, there would be weekly testosterone/alcohol-fueled slaughters instead of a knife being pulled in a bar fight. This isn't a bad neighbourhood in NYC you're taking about, this is an isolated, alcoholic, rural/tribal population with limited education, no opportunities, systemic child abuse, a perfect storm of cultural violence.

 

[momhappy]

Australia is many times safer than the US - we got rid of the right to carry arms and people were asked to hand in their guns under gun amnesties. People who need guns like farmers or professions where you need them still have them but it is very strictly regulated. I know people in the US love their guns but from someone looking in from the outside the answer seems pretty obvious..... stricter gun control and tighter gun laws do decrease the incidence of gun related crime - it IS that simple. We still have violent crimes and we also have rare massacres however, they happen less frequently here because we have less guns on the streets.

Isn't saying that stricter gun control has led to less gun-related crime stating the obvious? Less guns obviously lead to less gun-related crimes. However, Australia still has it's fair share of violent crime. I read of one city being dubbed "the stabbing capitol of Australia" at one time (I believe it was 2008?).

The murder rate of the US is FIFTY SEVEN times higher than Australia. There is something clearly wrong in the States.

Alice Springs is the 'stabbing capital' to which you refer. It is important in discussions to be able to compare apples to apples, and the States don't have a version of Alice. It's an outback 'city' of 20,000 people, with a quarter of the population being Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, with regular events just short of tribal warfare breaking out. The surrounding communities for hundreds of miles are dry, so Alice attracts transient alcoholics, and even resident alcoholics of other places on the weekends. They show up to play/watch football, get outrageously drunk, and start fights. If firearms were allowed, there would be weekly testosterone/alcohol-fueled slaughters instead of a knife being pulled in a bar fight. This isn't a bad neighbourhood in NYC you're taking about, this is an isolated, alcoholic, rural/tribal population with limited education, no opportunities, systemic child abuse, a perfect storm of cultural violence.

Yes, I agree that it's important to have an apples to apples comparison, which is exactly why I don't think that it's fair to say that Australia is "safer" because it's simply not a fair comparison.

 

[JulieN]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Homicide rate in US: 4.7/100,000
Homicide rate in Australia: 1/100,000

So, you are 4.7 times more likely to die of intentional homicide in the US than in Aus. I would say that Aus is a much safer country.

The 57 times number that justginger refers to includes other murders in addition to intentional homicide.

 

[momhappy]

Aren't there higher rates of burglary/robbery in Australia (as opposed to the US)? I suppose that it's a fair argument to say that one place is "safer" than the other, but that's open to individual interpretation.

 

[Sakuracherry]

I grew up in one of the safest country in the world. I had never ever seen a gun until I moved to the States. Sometimes I wined why people need guns. Maybe some people who live in the middle of nowhere do. I still don't understand. My MIL lives in one of the most affluent towns in the Fairfield county and some people seem to keep guns for self defense. Why?

 

[redwood66]

I am glad I now live in a state that protects its people and their rights. In my career I saw and read so much disgusting, foul and heinous criminal activity it is a wonder that I want to talk to anyone that I don't know. When you work daily around the absolute bottom of society it clouds your view of people in general and that doesn't go away. I do not live in fear for mine or my family's life but you can be damn sure that I am aware as I can be of what is going on around me. Yet I would never live anywhere else in the world. The US is a great country and I am very proud to be an American. I am a gun enthusiast who exercises my right to own, conceal-carry, shoot weapons, and hunt. Who are you to tell me that I should not be able to do those things because it would make you feel safer? Believe me you would be no safer and you don't have that right to decide for me. This question is directed at those who think no one should have guns - or just a chosen few.

Armed robbers broke into an 80+ year old man's home in my hometown meaning to rob him and do him harm. He fired his shotgun killing one and wounding the other. Had he not had his shotgun and been willing to use it to protect himself he might not be alive. He was not charged with any crime as well he should not have been. These stories happen more often than you think but they do not make news.

Had the elderly man been in another state the families of the robbers would have sued him and might have won because their "poor darlings were actually good boys who went to church and helped old ladies across the street." Which is total BS. In my state if you intend to sue someone civilly for a death or injury that they sustained while committing a crime you have to pay the attorney fees of both yourself and the defendant unless the defendant is found liable. This is highly unlikely if the defendant was not found guilty criminally of any wrong doing. This law keeps scumbags from benefitting from something they or their family member did.

 

[justginger]

Aren't there higher rates of burglary/robbery in Australia (as opposed to the US)? I suppose that it's a fair argument to say that one place is "safer" than the other, but that's open to individual interpretation.

Yes, the burglary rates in Australia are much higher than that in the States. These are non-violent robberies though, something like 80% occur when no one is home. I don't consider those statistics to be an indication of personal safety (if anything, it's a condemnation of people leaving their homes and vehicles unsecured, as they are often crimes of opportunity).

Statistics are not open to interpretation. The murder rates in the US, in terms of being a first world country with an excess of resources to potentially remedy the situation, are appalling. I don't know what the solution is, but EVERYONE (bipartisan politics!) admitting there is a problem and opening frank national discussions and research would be a good start.

 

[movie zombie]

I grew up in one of the safest country in the world. I had never ever seen a gun until I moved to the States. Sometimes I wined why people need guns. Maybe some people who live in the middle of nowhere do. I still don't understand. My MIL lives in one of the most affluent towns in the Fairfield county and some people seem to keep guns for self defense. Why?

because I refuse to be a victim.

and

I actually enjoy going to the range....it is a "zen" thing for me.

I haven't even killed a bird.......but knowing I can defend myself against evil is important to me.

I'd like to know what each of those that don't have a gun plan to do when someone pulls a gun on you or a loved one? what if you can't get to a phone? what if LE response time is 20 minutes and right now someone is telling you he's going to rape you and then kill you? how will you react? how will you defend yourself? do you have a plan in case someone breaks into your home while you are sleeping? do you know how to protect yourself? do you have a baseball bat? a knife? pepper spray? what happens if your SO/husband isn't home to defend you? what if he is overwhelmed and unconscious? what will you do to save yourself?

or do you think it will never happen to you....?

or are you a pacifist and would not protect yourself and would you submit and accept whatever happens?
believe it or not that is how I used to think......and then my daughter was born.
changed everything for me.
I decided I wanted to live to see her as an adult.
I decided I would kill to protect her life should anyone break into the house and try and hurt us.

but each makes their own decision. just have a plan and accept responsibility for your own protection, please.


eta re statistics: http://jpfo.org/articles-assd03/gun-stats-perspective.htm

while I myself am not Jewish, I have been reading this website for years. so before anyone starts talking statistics, please take a real look at them.

 

[JulieN]

Burglary rate is higher in Aus, but that is not a violent crime.

Robbery rate in the US is higher, and I assume you are probably more likely to die if you are robbed, as well.

You can read it all here, momhappy: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime

Murder by firearms in the US is 159 times more likely than in Aus.

 

[justginger]

I am glad I now live in a state that protects its people and their rights. In my career I saw and read so much disgusting, foul and heinous criminal activity it is a wonder that I want to talk to anyone that I don't know. When you work daily around the absolute bottom of society it clouds your view of people in general and that doesn't go away. I do not live in fear for mine or my family's life but you can be damn sure that I am aware as I can be of what is going on around me. Yet I would never live anywhere else in the world. The US is a great country and I am very proud to be an American. I am a gun enthusiast who exercises my right to own, conceal-carry, shoot weapons, and hunt. Who are you to tell me that I should not be able to do those things because it would make you feel safer? Believe me you would be no safer and you don't have that right to decide for me.

On what basis have you come to the opinion that the country as a whole would be less safe with fewer guns? The gun vs violent crime statistics I've found over the years suggest otherwise. Why are all other countries with strict limited gun laws not teeming with bands of roaming, armed gang members (much like I imagine gun enthusiasts envision when picturing the effects of a move in the direction away from free gun ownership)?

Do you always believe the rights of an individual trump that of society? I would imagine not, I don't know anyone who would support no legislation for educating children, banning speed limits, etc. How do you determine which rights are ok to restrict for the benefit of the populations versus those that are clearly reserved for individuals?

 

[Sakuracherry]

I do not want to have to be in a situation where having a gun is necessary in order to protect yourself and your family. That's why I am all for gun control. Something needs to change in this country.

 

[momhappy]

Burglary rate is higher in Aus, but that is not a violent crime.

Robbery rate in the US is higher, and I assume you are probably more likely to die if you are robbed, as well.

You can read it all here, momhappy: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime

Murder by firearms in the US is 159 times more likely than in Aus.

Yes, I've already seen those statistics on that site, but hey, you should note that software piracy rate is 40% higher in Australia vs. the US!
(I apologize if my joke is in poor taste given the topic at hand - just wanted to lighten the mood a bit

 

[Sky56]

I'm not a gun owner but I respect the right of law-abiding citizens to own guns. The US obviously has a big problem with gun violence and its criminal elements. People like you who enjoy your guns and are responsible, I have no problem with. I have many friends like you and others like me who are in the pacifist spectrum. (I can't bear the idea of ever eating any form of meat, even)

It's not a cure-all of course, but I help to protect myself by not drinking or taking drugs and staying away from night life, and cultivating a serene life. Yep, I might get killed by a gun-toting criminal or killed by a drunk driver, but most likely I'll die in bed of some disease.

 

[redwood66]

You are comparing gun violence to speeding and education? I don't believe I ever said anything about not being in favor of any form of legislation. Did you pay attention to where I said I worked? And did I say the country would be less safe with fewer guns? You are trying to twist my words to fit what your ideal is and that will not work.

And yes if guns were confiscated you can be damn sure that criminals would be the ones who have them.

 

[momhappy]

I do not want to have to be in a situation where having a gun is necessary in order to protect yourself and your family. That's why I am all for gun control. Something needs to change in this country.

Having the ability to protect yourself from a violent crime already is necessary. It's not as though the number of crazy people is suddenly going to drop with gun control in place… Until whatever needs to change actually changes, I'll continue to protect my family by the means in which I have been trained.

 

[redwood66]

I am not here to change anyone's mind but I will present my opinion of the issue. I appreciate everyone's opinion on this subject and all are entitled to their opinion. So I won't judge anyone and you don't judge me for having one in direct contrast to yours K?

 

[Sakuracherry]

Even if you are responsible, minors could your gun and tragedy could happen any time. How do government determine if you're responsible anyway? Those crazy criminals were deemed "responsible" as well, right?

 

[redwood66]

Even if you are responsible, minors could your gun and tragedy could happen any time. How do government determine if you're responsible anyway? Those crazy criminals were deemed "responsible" as well, right?

Minors have no access to my weapons and if one is a responsible gun owner the likelihood of accidents should be very slim. Alas people are not as careful as they should be and do not follow the rules of handling or owning weapons. I am not sure what crazy criminals you are referring to? And cases are investigated by law enforcement to determine if self defense was justified in cases like the elderly gentleman.

 

[momhappy]

Even if you are responsible, minors could your gun and tragedy could happen any time. How do government determine if you're responsible anyway? Those crazy criminals were deemed "responsible" as well, right?

"crazy criminals" don't necessarily obtain guns by legal means. Firearms can be obtained/carried illegally, so no, just because you own/carry a gun, does not mean that you have somehow been deemed responsible to own/carry it.

 

[packrat]

Just got back from play practice and part of a song popped in my head. Cuz that's how my mind works now, everything relates somehow to a song. And I know everyone else's songs better than my own.

Turning, turning, turning through the years.
Minutes into hours, and the hours into years.
Nothing changes.
Nothing ever can
Round about the roundabout, and back where you began.
Round and round and back where you began

That's it. End of discussion. Hashed and rehashed and gone over and over and over and Pete and Repeat were in a boat, Pete fell out, who's left and deja vu all over again.

It. Will. Ne-ver. Change. Ev-er. Stricter laws mean stricter laws for those that follow them. If people followed the rules my husband would be out of a job. Seat belts, speeding, running stop signs/lights, drunk driving, drugs, it. does. not. matter. what. the. laws. are. if someone isn't going to follow them, they aren't going to follow them, unless they have a reason not to (ETA: morals/conscious). I followed the rules to get my carry permit. We have about eleventy seven different safety procedures to go thru to get to any firearms. So we're pretty much SOL should someone decide to have a go at us. But yeah, I mean, sure, it makes total sense to take them away from *US* on the off chance that someone *might* be able to get thru our G14 classified safety measures...or *wait*..maaaaaybe...juuuust maaaybe...would..I dunno, this is totally off the wall but...d'ya think it might be a better route to take them from...boy I'm kinda on a limb here, talkin outa my ass but...jeez, maybe we should take them from...the criminals? Whooooooo boy I know that's a stretch but...

Someone needs to enforce these laws. (gun laws I speak of, not jaywalking) Who? Then there needs to be penalties for not obeying them. What? I scoff at most of the penalties for pretty much everything now (hello 47 DUI's and still has a license?)-b/c at the moment, it doesn't really seem to matter to anyone except the families/friends of people who are killed/injured. i don't see the law caring. Or the people who make the laws. Or propose the laws. They're all too busy lining their pockets. JD cares. That's why he does what he does. 'Course, then he's vilified anyway, for being a police officer so I shall say WTF people? Seriously. There is no have your cake and eat it too, not even if the frosting is buttercream. Sorry.

We want all sunshine and rainbows and glitter falling from the sky, but we are soooo very concerned about the wrong things. And the wrong people. And nobody is willing to *do* anything about it. We got that pesky shit called "rights", and we were dumb enough to give "rights" to pieces of shit. But boy howdy those are the first people to start squawking "my rights my rights". It should've been stated "These are our Rights. Unless you want to be a douchebag about it, then you can climb aboard the Good Ship Lollipop and sail it the **** on out of here" But the founding father's didn't ask ME. Should've. Everything would've been a lot clearer. .

 

[nkarma]

You are comparing gun violence to speeding and education? I don't believe I ever said anything about not being in favor of any form of legislation. Did you pay attention to where I said I worked? And did I say the country would be less safe with fewer guns? You are trying to twist my words to fit what your ideal is and that will not work.

And yes if guns were confiscated you can be damn sure that criminals would be the ones who have them.

Hi Redwood, I understand that you feel much more safe owning a gun because of the criminals own guns. Your life is threatened.

Why is it the criminals in other countries where guns are banned have less access to guns? If the amount of violent crime decreased drastically to what it is in other democratic countries, then would you feel safer or is it a mental thing? Just trying to understand.

Yes of course some criminals would have guns, but it would be fewer and I guarantee the amount of gun deaths would decrease drastically over time.

My point in starting this was it is very clear that Americans live in a war zone where they have to carry weapons to guarantee their own safety and are under constant threat of attack. This isn't a free country, it's a terror zone.

 

[nkarma]

Burglary rate is higher in Aus, but that is not a violent crime.

Robbery rate in the US is higher, and I assume you are probably more likely to die if you are robbed, as well.

You can read it all here, momhappy: http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime

Murder by firearms in the US is 159 times more likely than in Aus.

Yes, I've already seen those statistics on that site, but hey, you should note that software piracy rate is 40% higher in Australia vs. the US!
(I apologize if my joke is in poor taste given the topic at hand - just wanted to lighten the mood a bit

Not in bad taste, I think we need some levity.

So let's discuss what else is different in the US than Australia to see what is contributing to our VERY high violent crime rate. Do these other countries where their citizens who are safer know or do something different that could stop Americans from dying and living in fear?

I think you are right that we need to compare apples to apples, but there really aren't many differences in these countries from the US. Ideas?

 

[nkarma]

Thanks for sharing your personal experiences re: guns. I may need to take back what I said earlier as I've known several people who committed suicide with guns.

I was going to say I think it would be impossible for guns to have not touched your life anywhere in the US via suicide, homicide, mass shooting, rape, armed robbery, accidental shooting, manslaughter, etc...It is a common occurrence so much so that I think it's become normalized.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

How about we limit by law "gun production". In the medical prefession, there is a categtory called "controlled substances", which requires a special script from the doc to the pharmacy and seems to work to prevent unintended uses. We need a much stricter "needs policy" for owning a gun.Perhaps hunters could go to a rental facility when they wanted to hunt game, and return the gun to the facility. To molify gun owners now, we start this process in 2015. All present gun ownership stays the same.

Yes, some companies might go out of business, but when your product has lost its market, you go out of business. Stop the source.
Then call in the National guard in the terrorist zones to collect guns from the criminals. The Gov't spys on us everyday, and collects info they ought not have, and they do it, they say, constitutionally. So, under the terrorism act, they can start protecting their own citizens.

I also want to remind people that we have had problems in the past. The west was won by jailing and killing the criminals who stole horses, cattle, and shot people at the drop of a hat. We did have heros then. Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill Hickock, elliot Ness, and a modern day Rudy Juliani. They made places safe for people. It will take drastic measures, and more police authority, just like the marshalls had or took, in the old times. We had the same constitution then.

It may sound silly and far fetched, but its going to take a big change tp get anywhere. .

Annette

 

[TooPatient]

I grew up in one of the safest country in the world. I had never ever seen a gun until I moved to the States. Sometimes I wined why people need guns. Maybe some people who live in the middle of nowhere do. I still don't understand. My MIL lives in one of the most affluent towns in the Fairfield county and some people seem to keep guns for self defense. Why?

because I refuse to be a victim.

and

I actually enjoy going to the range....it is a "zen" thing for me.

I haven't even killed a bird.......but knowing I can defend myself against evil is important to me.

I'd like to know what each of those that don't have a gun plan to do when someone pulls a gun on you or a loved one? what if you can't get to a phone? what if LE response time is 20 minutes and right now someone is telling you he's going to rape you and then kill you? how will you react? how will you defend yourself? do you have a plan in case someone breaks into your home while you are sleeping? do you know how to protect yourself? do you have a baseball bat? a knife? pepper spray? what happens if your SO/husband isn't home to defend you? what if he is overwhelmed and unconscious? what will you do to save yourself?

or do you think it will never happen to you....?

or are you a pacifist and would not protect yourself and would you submit and accept whatever happens?
believe it or not that is how I used to think......and then my daughter was born.
changed everything for me.
I decided I wanted to live to see her as an adult.
I decided I would kill to protect her life should anyone break into the house and try and hurt us.

but each makes their own decision. just have a plan and accept responsibility for your own protection, please.


eta re statistics: http://jpfo.org/articles-assd03/gun-stats-perspective.htm

while I myself am not Jewish, I have been reading this website for years. so before anyone starts talking statistics, please take a real look at them.

This.

I love going to the range. It is super relaxing and satisfying. I have never shot a living thing and hope to never have to, but you better believe that I would without a second thought if I had to. I will protect myself and my family. You can choose to roll over and be raped in front of your children and forced to watch your daughters be raped and beaten if you want to but don't tell me that I have to also.

 

[TooPatient]

Hi,

How about we limit by law "gun production". In the medical prefession, there is a categtory called "controlled substances", which requires a special script from the doc to the pharmacy and seems to work to prevent unintended uses. We need a much stricter "needs policy" for owning a gun.Perhaps hunters could go to a rental facility when they wanted to hunt game, and return the gun to the facility. To molify gun owners now, we start this process in 2015. All present gun ownership stays the same.

Yes, some companies might go out of business, but when your product has lost its market, you go out of business. Stop the source.
Then call in the National guard in the terrorist zones to collect guns from the criminals. The Gov't spys on us everyday, and collects info they ought not have, and they do it, they say, constitutionally. So, under the terrorism act, they can start protecting their own citizens.

I also want to remind people that we have had problems in the past. The west was won by jailing and killing the criminals who stole horses, cattle, and shot people at the drop of a hat. We did have heros then. Wyatt Earp, Wild Bill Hickock, elliot Ness, and a modern day Rudy Juliani. They made places safe for people. It will take drastic measures, and more police authority, just like the marshalls had or took, in the old times. We had the same constitution then.

It may sound silly and far fetched, but its going to take a big change tp get anywhere. .

Annette

FYI, it is easy to make guns from scratch. Basic tools in the garage (not gun tools, just regular old metal working stuff) and some basic materials and it just takes an afternoon.
If you've got a 3d printer or a milling machine, it gets even easier.

Want to ban ammo? No problem there either.

We have the right to have our guns and ammunition in our own homes, cars, and even on our person. Any regulation you want to put in place WILL be gotten around.

 

[Laila619]

People keep saying that criminals won't obey the gun restrictions and that the honest law-abiding citizens will be in danger, but no one can have guns in Australia or Canada and they don't have any issues. Why is that?