Boycotting Chickfil A and now Hobby Lobby

[Circe]

I would never knowingly buy anything from anyone that oppresses or subjugates anyone. Once you know something you have a RESPONSIBILITY so it is not at all hypocritical or melodramatic. I think we will just have to agree to disagree because whenever someone disagrees with you they become "melodramatic". Certain issues are important to ME and I will never budge on them and one of them is the fair treatment of humans. I'm going to go there with race again, but I as a Black woman can never imagine buying something from a company who thinks that gays should be treated differently. I would not buy from a company that does not promote women because they believe their place is in the home, but hey that's just me. You are free to do with what you want with your money.

This was more or less word-for-word what I was thinking as I read along, so I will bow to the more eloquent voice and add an enthusiastic +1.

I do think it's interesting that we're debating the ability to boycott, as if companies are somehow entitled to our money. Free market FTW and all, but ... WHAT? I never thought much of CFL, but if I found out that the proprietors of my favorite Chinese place down on 55th where I've been going since I was 12 were bigots, I'd have a much harder time choking down the fried rice, somehow.

(They're not. They're awesome. I just had to add that, since I love them and would not want to impugn them even by association. Guilt, expiated!)

 

[makhro82]

I would never knowingly buy anything from anyone that oppresses or subjugates anyone. Once you know something you have a RESPONSIBILITY so it is not at all hypocritical or melodramatic. I think we will just have to agree to disagree because whenever someone disagrees with you they become "melodramatic". Certain issues are important to ME and I will never budge on them and one of them is the fair treatment of humans. I'm going to go there with race again, but I as a Black woman can never imagine buying something from a company who thinks that gays should be treated differently. I would not buy from a company that does not promote women because they believe their place is in the home, but hey that's just me. You are free to do with what you want with your money.

It is a responsibility should you choose to make it so... this, I can agree with wholeheartedly.

It is not your responsibility to judge others, just as you hope that you will not be judged. It's granting them the same courtesy you have expected of them and continue to expect. I am not judging others I am do what is right for my moral conscious.

It's not thinking that one is of higher moral or ethical character than another simply by because of how they choose to spend their money. If we do this, then we are no better than those we are negatively judging.

To assume an entire company holds the same beliefs as its founder is asinine. I don't believe this but when you buy into a company you pay that company money to be a franchisee and ultimately that owner gets money. They are not getting my money. Although many feel that there are certain groups that absolutely cannot be discriminated against, I would dare to say that they would be wrong, but that is a different thread entirely... I will go on spending my money as I wish, just as others will freely do the same. The difference is some will play the tape all the way through and think of how it might feel to have been labeled, stereotyped, and judged, and make the decision to try to love one another regardless, free of judgement. The rest will continue to judge, although they would cry discrimination if the tables were turned... I'm sorry in what world is believing that unequal or unfair treatment of others based on things like gender, sex, race, sexual orientation, etc. is judging others? I am not discriminating others, I am choosing not to spend my money with companies who advertise that their beliefs don't match mine. And trust me there is no need for me to "cry discrimination". I've been there and that is why I will NEVER knowingly do it to anyone else. As a Black person I have been judged, harassed, stereotyped and many other things. And that is why I am uncomfortable supporting anyone who is willing to do it to anyone else. You might want to check out Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack it may help you understand a few things about privilege and the things that go along with it.

Some have admitted they already do. I'll quote kenny again in saying, "people vary." <shrugs>

 

[msop04]

When a company hands us their beliefs on a silver platter, and they are contrary to my own moral code, I can't fathom the thought of further supporting their business. That doesn't make me feel superior. I'm just doing what feels right to me, and I will do my best to share this information with others in the event that they are of the same mindset as me. And if not, well then free to be you and me. Whatevs.

Admittedly, I don't know much about HL and its founders/CEOs... but I don't feel that Mr. Cathy of CFA was wrong in saying that he was a Christian and therefore didn't believe in homosexuality when asked. He didn't come out and speak against any group, nor does his company discriminate against anyone. He could've said that he didn't get into those things and everyone would still be in an uproar. Would this still be happening if he'd said he practiced another religion that believed differently? Nope, he would have still been scrutinized one way or another.

We don't have Hobby Lobby here, and I have no idea what a Chickfil A is. I don't eat fast food - is it fast food? Sounds gross, lol, like little tempura fried fuzzy baby chicks.

This made me laugh!! Yes, it's fast food -- and it's oh so good (unfortunately not good for us though!) Yikes!!

And if anyone is unsure of what I stand for (being a business owner), let me say this: I would like to be the cheese in a John Stewart/Jimmy Kimmel sammich. That's all.

Me too!!! Me too!!!

 

[makhro82]

Msop please read to fully understand their company "culture":

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-badash/chick-fil-a-5-reasons-it-isnt-what-you-think_b_1725237.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/14/chick-fil-a-anti-gay-donation-nyu-protest_n_1277364.html

They do discriminate against gays and women.

 

[msop04]

I'm sorry in what world is believing that unequal or unfair treatment of others based on things like gender, sex, race, sexual orientation, etc. is judging others?

To feel it acceptable to show unequal or unfair treatment to anyone based on anything shows that person feels a sense of superiority (or that those being treated unequally are inferior to them). This goes for those who do not share the same beliefs as you. This goes for someone who may not choose to act in the same ways as you while sharing similar beliefs (boycotting, etc). To assume that a person supports a company's founder's beliefs because they buy things there is an incorrect and unfair judgement, whether you feel positively or negatively toward them because of it.

I am not discriminating others, I am choosing not to spend my money with companies who advertise that their beliefs don't match mine. And trust me there is no need for me to "cry discrimination". I've been there and that is why I will NEVER knowingly do it to anyone else. As a Black person I have been judged, harassed, stereotyped and many other things. And that is why I am uncomfortable supporting anyone who is willing to do it to anyone else. You might want to check out Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack it may help you understand a few things about privilege and the things that go along with it.

And you shouldn't spend your dollars if you believe this to be so... no one is arguing this. However, to assume that another person supports the beliefs of said company because they choose to spend their money there is unfair. Just because the person didn't boycott as you do doesn't mean that they support the beliefs. To believe they automatically do would be unfair judgement of them.

And I would honestly dare to say that your belief in equality is questionable if you support a company who's CEOs views are not in line with your beliefs. Means your are compromising yourself for a chicken sandwich IMO. It's great to say you "believe" in something, it's even better to demonstrate your beliefs.

makhro, you made this statement several posts back - this very statement is passing judgment. You may feel it better for your conscious to demonstrate your beliefs in such ways as this, but others who share your beliefs may go about them differently. Neither is more superior or inferior than the other. So (again), to assume that one's "belief in equality is questionable if you support a company whose CEO's views are not in line with your beliefs" is completely unfair and very judgmental. These are your words. Have I misunderstood you? Please correct me if I did by explaining what you meant by this?

By your logic, if Sally buys a CFA sandwich, that means her views are in line with the CEO of this company. If I enjoy coffee every morning with my sugary muffin treat, that mean I believe in and support child labor. Both of us have given our "dollars" to these... does that unquestionably mean we believe in and support them?

Now that you know about some of the products that are likely to come from child labor will you avoid these to? I doubt it, and I don't blame you -- I personally wouldn't expect anyone to, nor would I judge them either way. It's ridiculous for anyone to say that if you don't boycott and continue to pay for these items, then you must support it... It's easy to place judgement and label others when it's convenient to us and can be put all out there for others to see, such as in boycotting HL, Starbucks, or CFA... other things of arguably equal importance... not so much. KWIM?

 

[makhro82]

I'm sorry in what world is believing that unequal or unfair treatment of others based on things like gender, sex, race, sexual orientation, etc. is judging others?

To feel it acceptable to show unequal or unfair treatment to anyone based on anything shows that person feels a sense of superiority (or that those being treated unequally are inferior to them). This goes for those who do not share the same beliefs as you. This goes for someone who may not choose to act in the same ways as you while sharing similar beliefs (boycotting, etc). To assume that a person supports a company's founder's beliefs because they buy things there is an incorrect and unfair judgement, whether you feel positively or negatively toward them because of it.

I am not discriminating others, I am choosing not to spend my money with companies who advertise that their beliefs don't match mine. And trust me there is no need for me to "cry discrimination". I've been there and that is why I will NEVER knowingly do it to anyone else. As a Black person I have been judged, harassed, stereotyped and many other things. And that is why I am uncomfortable supporting anyone who is willing to do it to anyone else. You might want to check out Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack it may help you understand a few things about privilege and the things that go along with it.

And you shouldn't spend your dollars if you believe this to be so... no one is arguing this. However, to assume that another person supports the beliefs of said company because they choose to spend their money there is unfair. Just because the person didn't boycott as you do doesn't mean that they support the beliefs. To believe they automatically do would be unfair judgement of them.

And I would honestly dare to say that your belief in equality is questionable if you support a company who's CEOs views are not in line with your beliefs. Means your are compromising yourself for a chicken sandwich IMO. It's great to say you "believe" in something, it's even better to demonstrate your beliefs.

makhro, you made this statement several posts back - this very statement is passing judgment. You may feel it better for your conscious to demonstrate your beliefs in such ways as this, but others who share your beliefs may go about them differently. Neither is more superior or inferior than the other. So (again), to assume that one's "belief in equality is questionable if you support a company whose CEO's views are not in line with your beliefs" is completely unfair and very judgmental. These are your words. Have I misunderstood you? Please correct me if I did by explaining what you meant by this?

By your logic, if Sally buys a CFA sandwich, that means her views are in line with the CEO of this company. If I enjoy coffee every morning with my sugary muffin treat, that mean I believe in and support child labor. Both of us have given our "dollars" to these... does that unquestionably mean we believe in and support them?

Now that you know about some of the products that are likely to come from child labor will you avoid these to? I doubt it, and I don't blame you -- I personally wouldn't expect anyone to, nor would I judge them either way. It's ridiculous for anyone to say that if you don't boycott and continue to pay for these items, then you must support it... It's easy to place judgement and label others when it's convenient to us and can be put all out there for others to see, such as in boycotting HL, Starbucks, or CFA... other things of arguably equal importance... not so much. KWIM?

I'm don't think it is passing judgment I think it is having an opinion. Just like your opinion is that I'm being melodramatic. Do I think you're passing judgment on me? No, you have an opinion about my beliefs, behavior, etc. And I will not change my mind on the fact that people who knowingly spend money with companies with abhorrent policies and belief are supporting them. Cathy uses the money that people spend on his biscuits and sandwiches to support hate groups, so how is that not supporting those beliefs. Do I think you believe them? No, but people have to be accountable for their actions. As a Christian should Cathy really be passing judgment on them or should he just let God do his job? And you don't know me because I'm a Starbucksaholic and I guarantee you that not another one of their drinks will be purchased by me because I am that kind of person that will stop consuming something if it is harming others. I will look into the other things you mentioned.

 

[makhro82]

I'm sorry in what world is believing that unequal or unfair treatment of others based on things like gender, sex, race, sexual orientation, etc. is judging others?

To feel it acceptable to show unequal or unfair treatment to anyone based on anything shows that person feels a sense of superiority (or that those being treated unequally are inferior to them). This goes for those who do not share the same beliefs as you. This goes for someone who may not choose to act in the same ways as you while sharing similar beliefs (boycotting, etc). To assume that a person supports a company's founder's beliefs because they buy things there is an incorrect and unfair judgement, whether you feel positively or negatively toward them because of it.

I am not discriminating others, I am choosing not to spend my money with companies who advertise that their beliefs don't match mine. And trust me there is no need for me to "cry discrimination". I've been there and that is why I will NEVER knowingly do it to anyone else. As a Black person I have been judged, harassed, stereotyped and many other things. And that is why I am uncomfortable supporting anyone who is willing to do it to anyone else. You might want to check out Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack it may help you understand a few things about privilege and the things that go along with it.

And you shouldn't spend your dollars if you believe this to be so... no one is arguing this. However, to assume that another person supports the beliefs of said company because they choose to spend their money there is unfair. Just because the person didn't boycott as you do doesn't mean that they support the beliefs. To believe they automatically do would be unfair judgement of them.

And I would honestly dare to say that your belief in equality is questionable if you support a company who's CEOs views are not in line with your beliefs. Means your are compromising yourself for a chicken sandwich IMO. It's great to say you "believe" in something, it's even better to demonstrate your beliefs.

makhro, you made this statement several posts back - this very statement is passing judgment. You may feel it better for your conscious to demonstrate your beliefs in such ways as this, but others who share your beliefs may go about them differently. Neither is more superior or inferior than the other. So (again), to assume that one's "belief in equality is questionable if you support a company whose CEO's views are not in line with your beliefs" is completely unfair and very judgmental. These are your words. Have I misunderstood you? Please correct me if I did by explaining what you meant by this?

By your logic, if Sally buys a CFA sandwich, that means her views are in line with the CEO of this company. If I enjoy coffee every morning with my sugary muffin treat, that mean I believe in and support child labor. Both of us have given our "dollars" to these... does that unquestionably mean we believe in and support them?

Now that you know about some of the products that are likely to come from child labor will you avoid these to? I doubt it, and I don't blame you -- I personally wouldn't expect anyone to, nor would I judge them either way. It's ridiculous for anyone to say that if you don't boycott and continue to pay for these items, then you must support it... It's easy to place judgement and label others when it's convenient to us and can be put all out there for others to see, such as in boycotting HL, Starbucks, or CFA... other things of arguably equal importance... not so much. KWIM?

I'm don't think it is passing judgment I think it is having an opinion. Just like your opinion is that I'm being melodramatic. Do I think you're passing judgment on me? No, you have an opinion about my beliefs, behavior, etc. And I will not change my mind on the fact that people who knowingly spend money with companies with abhorrent policies and belief are supporting them. Cathy uses the money that people spend on his biscuits and sandwiches to support hate groups, so how is that not supporting those beliefs. Do I think you believe them? No, but people have to be accountable for their actions. As a Christian should Cathy really be passing judgment on them or should he just let God do his job? And you don't know me because I'm a Starbucksaholic and I guarantee you that not another one of their drinks will be purchased by me because I am that kind of person that will stop consuming something if it is harming others. I will look into the other things you mentioned.

 

[msop04]

I'm don't think it is passing judgment I think it is having an opinion. Just like your opinion is that I'm being melodramatic. Do I think you're passing judgment on me? No, you have an opinion about my beliefs, behavior, etc. And I will not change my mind on the fact that people who knowingly spend money with companies with abhorrent policies and belief are supporting them. Cathy uses the money that people spend on his biscuits and sandwiches to support hate groups, so how is that not supporting those beliefs. Do I think you believe them? No, but people have to be accountable for their actions. As a Christian should Cathy really be passing judgment on them or should he just let God do his job? And you don't know me because I'm a Starbucksaholic and I guarantee you that not another one of their drinks will be purchased by me because I am that kind of person that will stop consuming something if it is harming others. I will look into the other things you mentioned.

Actually, I was being melodramatic as well... but fair enough.

Christian groups are hate groups. Don't agree, but I'll play. Ok.

Maybe I need to get my facts straight, but what exactly are these groups and what have they done to show hate? If it is their belief and not yours, does it mean that they hate? Would that mean that you or I are showing hate because we don't believe the same way as our neighbor?

Maybe the fundamentals of Christianity I was taught isn't the same as theirs, which teaches us to love everyone, even though we may not support their beliefs and/or lifestyles?? I really would like to know what hate groups he's supported though. I mean, which funerals are they picketing?? Is this the hate you speak of? Or do they simply stand by traditional Christian beliefs?? Just as you don't like to give your support (money) to CFA, Mr. Cathy can't doesn't want to give his to things he doesn't believe in, regardless of what anyone else thinks... Just as you refuse to change your beliefs, he refuses to change his. How are yours superior to his? It's his religious beliefs for crying out loud. He feels strongly about them. Would you compromise your beliefs because someone believed you were hating by practicing them? Although his beliefs seem abhorrent to some, he feels that he is standing his spiritual ground, so to speak... and to "give into" or ignoring these things might mean that he wasn't practicing his faith.

Clearly this man doesn't feel he is doing any more than standing up for what he believes in? We may not agree with him 100% or even at all, but if the tables were turned should we be expected to compromise our beliefs because they didn't fit into what was considered popular or even right? If that were the case, our most basic world religions would have never made it. I don't know this man, but I don't believe that he feels what he is doing is wrong, much less spewing hate. Does that make sense? Not asking if it makes it right in your eyes, but do you agree that it makes sense?

 

[makhro82]

What did you think of those links msop?

 

[msop04]

What did you think of those links msop?

Which links? My tired brain is about to fall asleep, honestly.

 

[makhro82]

My belief is that his Christian beliefs have no place in the workplace unless you work in a religious arena. My belief is that his beliefs have led to illegal behaviors. My belief that people should not be discriminated against is supported by the law, not my moral superiority.

There was time a time where religion was a basis for the poor treatment of many groups and we have come to realize that it was wrong.

I'm writing this on my phone so I can't get the link to paste but a quick Google search will show you what groups they donated to and what actions those groups take.

 

[msop04]

Sorry, just saw the links... and it's from HuffPost's Gay Voices, so I immediately know it's biased, just as one from ChristianTimes would be... LOL but I read the first one so far...


Here are five reasons why Chick-fil-A isn't what you think:

1) Chick-fil-A has donated at least $5 million to organizations (including a certified hate group) that, among other things, depict gay people as pedophiles, want to make "gay behavior" illegal, and even say gay people should be "exported" out of America.

Even if you oppose same-sex marriage, do you really want to support a company that advocates putting gay people in jail, or "exporting" them, just because they're gay?

Which ones?? What did they do?? Where is this documented and proven?? I'm not saying it's not possible, but I find it convenient that none were named...

2) Chick-fil-A president Dan Cathy didn't merely say he supports traditional marriage. Dan Cathy said if you support gay marriage, you "are inviting God's judgment on our nation," and that we "shake our fist at Him" when we do. Dan Cathy also said same-sex marriage is the result of a "deprived" mind and called it "twisted up kind of stuff."

Even if you don't support same-sex marriage, do you really think gay marriage is "inviting God's judgment on our nation"? Haven't we all heard enough blame from those who claim to speak for the Lord, like after Katrina or, more recently, after the shooting in Aurora, Colo.?

I don't agree with Mr. Cathy's words, obviously... but I'd be very interested in reading these interviews to see the entire context of his words... ya know how magazines are known to copy and paste words. Yeah, I have no doubt that he said this, but I would really need to see "Who, What, When, Where, and Why" of it all. Because those are Biblical type things he's saying... and everyone knows you can make the Scripture say whatever you want to...

3) Chick-fil-A supports organizations that have claimed they can change gay people into straight people -- "pray away the gay" -- despite the fact that practically every major medical organization has stated that this is not only impossible but dangerous and harmful.

Even if you don't support same-sex marriage, do you support fake "science" that is known to harm the very people it claims to help?

I laughed when I read this, being science-minded and all... but I do know it is a fundamental Christian belief that there is only Adam & Eve, and that prayer is powerful enough do anything. They also believe that Adam and Eve were the first humans of they are Bible fundamentalists.... so ...whatevs on that one.


4) The media keep saying Chick-fil-A has never discriminated, but the truth is that Chick-fil-A has been sued over a dozen times for employment discrimination. That's what a leading business publication, Forbes, stated in 2007, when they also called Chick-fil-A a "cult" and reported that Chick-fil-A's founder and CEO Truett Cathy said he wanted to hire married people because they are more industrious and productive. Truett Cathy has also said he would probably fire someone who "has been sinful or done something harmful to their family members."

Even if you don't support same-sex marriage, do you want to support what some call a "cult" whose CEO says he would fire employees for "being sinful"?

One would be hard-pressed to name one company who had not been sued for discrimination like this... I worked for Walgreens and my tech was threatened to be sued for discrimination for making a pt wait his turn. He said she was clearly discriminating against him because he was old. ...had to laugh at that one.

5) Chick-fil-A is just exercising their First Amendment rights by running a business based on the Bible, right? Wrong. There's a line between the "free exercise of religion" and violating the law. If Chick-fil-A is violating the law by discriminating against gay people, or by firing women so that they can be "stay home" moms, as one woman who is suing Chick-fil-A says in court documents, that's not exercising religious expression or free speech, and that's not a First Amendment issue. It may be, if the court decides, a violation of the law.

Even if you don't support same-sex marriage, do you want to support a company that might fire women to force them to be "stay home" moms against their will?

This claim is ridiculous... really?? C'mon now... this one is getting a little desperate. I'd love to see actual cases and not accusations. I could say the same for any company, but that doesn't make it true. Who is the woman?? Where did this happen? What was the outcome? I'd be interested to hear more about this.


I'm not saying that there is absolutely no truth to this, but it seems very vague, as there is not one ounce of documentation to back it up. It mentions magazines, but fails to show the quotes in said source.... I would certainly need more facts and less empty claims.

 

[msop04]

The second article...

So, yeah, that's $1,733,699 to groups with anti-LGBT affiliations (yes that Exodus International is that Exodus International) out of a total of $2,678,985 in contributions WinShare made that year. Another interesting thing in WinShape's 2009 filing? In 2009 the Metro Atlanta Chamber of Commerce appears to have contributed $416,724 to the Foundation, the third largest contribution behind Chick-fil-A ($7,814,78 and the company's Delaware-based real estate arm CFA Properties ($7,000,000). Wonder if the people of Atlanta know about that?

Again, HuffPost Gay Voices... this shows donations and actual groups. I don't agree with it... at all. I don't share such fundamentalist beliefs. Clearly Cathy is a Christian fundamentalist, believing strongly that homosexuality is "of the devil" or whatever the heck they think. I don't think he feels this is hate, but his effort to try to spread his form of Christianity, which says that he will share these beliefs and try to "save souls." He feels they are "lost" and that his efforts may help them "find the way". Man, I don't like all that talk, but that has to be what it is... Again, I do not agree with this whatsoever, but I doubt he sees it as "hate" like some do. Doesn't make it right in my opinion, though...

Thanks for sharing the links.

Edited for grammar, albeit very poorly. ZZZZzzzzzz

 

[msop04]

My belief is that his Christian beliefs have no place in the workplace unless you work in a religious arena. My belief is that his beliefs have led to illegal behaviors. My belief that people should not be discriminated against is supported by the law, not my moral superiority.

There was time a time where religion was a basis for the poor treatment of many groups and we have come to realize that it was wrong.

I'm writing this on my phone so I can't get the link to paste but a quick Google search will show you what groups they donated to and what actions those groups take.

I agree with every word in this post. No religious beliefs should be in the workplace. However, our country allows one while not acknowledging another... and this is wrong as well. If you allow something for one, then you must allow it for all to be comepletely fair, but what happens when these beliefs conflict?? Just be done with it -- no special treatment for any religion is the only answer. The problem is that people get upset if this happens to include their own...

 

[msop04]

...or in government, for that matter.

 

[ericad]

What we have here is a case of semantics. The word "judgment" has 3 definitions:

1. the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions.

2. a misfortune or calamity viewed as a divine punishment.

3. a decision of a court or judge.

Which definition are people using? I personally judge people, situations, and myself probably 100 times per day, in accordance with definition #1. What's wrong with that? It's how I develop my own moral code and grow as a person. When I see someone displaying crappy parenting, for example, I judge what I see, in accordance with my own personal code of conduct, and I move on and try to learn something from it. When a company exposes their beliefs about things which I find reprehensible, I judge their actions and base my resulting actions accordingly. And if other consumers also find the company's actions to be reprehensible, yet they continue to patronize that business (which supports the growth and personal gain of those who run the business while engaging in said reprehensible act), then I might make a judgment about their actions, reevaluate my own, and go on with life.

We make judgments every single day. Judgement is not a dirty word.

 

[msop04]

What we have here is a case of semantics. The word "judgment" has 3 definitions:

1. the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions.

2. a misfortune or calamity viewed as a divine punishment.

3. a decision of a court or judge.

Which definition are people using? I personally judge people, situations, and myself probably 100 times per day, in accordance with definition #1. What's wrong with that? It's how I develop my own moral code and grow as a person. When I see someone displaying crappy parenting, for example, I judge what I see, in accordance with my own personal code of conduct, and I move on and try to learn something from it. When a company exposes their beliefs about things which I find reprehensible, I judge their actions and base my resulting actions accordingly. And if other consumers also find the company's actions to be reprehensible, yet they continue to patronize that business (which supports the growth and personal gain of those who run the business while engaging in said reprehensible act), then I might make a judgment about their actions, reevaluate my own, and go on with life.
We make judgments every single day. Judgement is not a dirty word.

This is very true, ericad - thanks for bringing this up. I was more referring to automatic assumptions lending to "judgements" (in this case negative) about a person purely based on where they spend their money, all while assuming one's own superiority or advanced ethical code as compared to that other person. Dang that was "wordy." Hope it made sense...

Based on pure definition, I would say I meant it more in line with #1... As people, we can't help but judges many times a day (as you mentioned) as a lot of it is Although it may be "sensible" it does not make it correct or fair. It goes both ways, too -- positive or negatively, to assume to know the beliefs of others based on their patronage is unfair. It may be "correct," about one person, but totally off base when making judgement on another person.

Example: John goes into HL because his kid has a craft project due at school or he needs supplies to hang some art in his home. John's neighbor would be incorrect to assume John's beliefs are in line with those of HL's founders because he shops there. It would also be incorrect to assume that John is of lower moral standing than another who chooses not to shope there. KWIM?

 

[Matata]

Example: John goes into HL because his kid has a craft project due at school or he needs supplies to hang some art in his home. John's neighbor would be incorrect to assume John's beliefs are in line with those of HL's founders because he shops there. It would also be incorrect to assume that John is of lower moral standing than another who chooses not to shope there. KWIM?

If I knew John was unaware of a business' practices that the law/society's ethical-moral code deemed reprehensible I would not negatively judge him.

If I knew John well enough to speak with him about the reprehensible practices and he continued to shop there, I would negatively judge him. And I would discriminate against him by not socializing with him.

If I knew John's belief's supported the reprehensible practices, I would negatively judge him whether or not he shopped there. And I would discriminate against him by not socializing with him.

He still has the right to do as he pleases, and I still have the right to negatively judge him. If he were trapped in his burning house, I would still try to save him.

 

[msop04]

If I knew John was unaware of a business' practices that the law/society's ethical-moral code deemed reprehensible I would not negatively judge him.

If I knew John well enough to speak with him about the reprehensible practices and he continued to shop there, I would negatively judge him. And I would discriminate against him by not socializing with him.

If I knew John's belief's supported the reprehensible practices, I would negatively judge him whether or not he shopped there. And I would discriminate against him by not socializing with him.

He still has the right to do as he pleases, and I still have the right to negatively judge him. If he were trapped in his burning house, I would still try to save him.

I guess where we differ is that I wouldn't judge him for shopping there either, regardless of if he knew or not, as it would seem unfair to me. I would, however judge him if I knew that he believed birth control was a sin or was homophobic. It's not what I personally believe, and I feel it's wrong according to what I have been taught, but he has the right to his beliefs just as I do... I wouldn't judge someone for drinking coffee anymore than I would for living in a carpeted brick house. However, if I thought they believed forced child labor was okay, I would most likely not be their friend.

People are just different.

 

[Matata]

People are just different.

Which is why fairness is a untenable construct and why there will never be peace in the world or global love and acceptance among humanity.

 

[Indylady]

I'm shocked that it was even contested that Chick-fil-A donates to homophobic organizations and that we're debating hypotheticals and the use of the word judgment. Chick-fil-A, Hobby Lobby, and a number of other companies pepetuate hatred towards LGBT people--why isn't this discussion about the communities that this hatred is affecting? I've been missing a lot of the discussions that we used to have on PS; most of the ones I see these days end up in the weeds.

 

[ksinger]

I'm shocked that it was even contested that Chick-fil-A donates to homophobic organizations and that we're debating hypotheticals and the use of the word judgment. Chick-fil-A, Hobby Lobby, and a number of other companies pepetuate hatred towards LGBT people--why isn't this discussion about the communities that this hatred is affecting? I've been missing a lot of the discussions that we used to have on PS; most of the ones I see these days end up in the weeds.

Ah, I confess I miss them some too. But those of us who are ATW war vets have tried to get on with our lives and tamp down the fires. (read with great hand-to-forehead melodrama)

Besides, this is just the same war as back then, mirroring the deep divide in the country, right? Just a slightly different flavor of battle.

Now I'm off to lunch and then to continue making a pair of earrings: it keeps frustration from coming out my fingertips....

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I think its a good action to be able to take if you feel strongly about an issue. The Hobby lobby issue is not a strong one for me, and I like the store for framing my artwork, so I'll continue to use them. Catholic Hospitals, Religious institutions, who object can have a dispensation as far as I'm concerned. BirthControl pills are affordable and are just one more, of many things that may not be covered by their health insurance.

Now, there are issues, womens issues(other than the above birthcontrol), race issues, antisemitism and a few others that are important to me.I would never use Good Old Gold for diamonds. His views are so at odds with mine: issues that I have worked so hard for in my lifetime. I wouldn't give his business a dime. Its my opinion and only mine, and there is no libel attached, although there are those that wish to make it so.

Its our own choice how to spend our money. I hope to choose wisely.

 

[makhro82]

What we have here is a case of semantics. The word "judgment" has 3 definitions:

1. the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions.

2. a misfortune or calamity viewed as a divine punishment.

3. a decision of a court or judge.

Which definition are people using? I personally judge people, situations, and myself probably 100 times per day, in accordance with definition #1. What's wrong with that? It's how I develop my own moral code and grow as a person. When I see someone displaying crappy parenting, for example, I judge what I see, in accordance with my own personal code of conduct, and I move on and try to learn something from it. When a company exposes their beliefs about things which I find reprehensible, I judge their actions and base my resulting actions accordingly. And if other consumers also find the company's actions to be reprehensible, yet they continue to patronize that business (which supports the growth and personal gain of those who run the business while engaging in said reprehensible act), then I might make a judgment about their actions, reevaluate my own, and go on with life.

We make judgments every single day. Judgement is not a dirty word.

All I can say is I completely agree.

 

[msop04]

People are just different.

Which is why fairness is a untenable construct and why there will never be peace in the world or global love and acceptance among humanity.

Sadly, I feel this is true. Well said.

 

[kenny]

What we have here is a case of semantics. The word "judgment" has 3 definitions:

1. the ability to make considered decisions or come to sensible conclusions.

2. a misfortune or calamity viewed as a divine punishment.

3. a decision of a court or judge.

Which definition are people using? I personally judge people, situations, and myself probably 100 times per day, in accordance with definition #1. What's wrong with that? It's how I develop my own moral code and grow as a person. When I see someone displaying crappy parenting, for example, I judge what I see, in accordance with my own personal code of conduct, and I move on and try to learn something from it. When a company exposes their beliefs about things which I find reprehensible, I judge their actions and base my resulting actions accordingly. And if other consumers also find the company's actions to be reprehensible, yet they continue to patronize that business (which supports the growth and personal gain of those who run the business while engaging in said reprehensible act), then I might make a judgment about their actions, reevaluate my own, and go on with life.

We make judgments every single day. Judgement is not a dirty word.

+1000!

The stupidest words ever written are, "Thou shall not judge."

It is astonishing so many thinking people think they do not judge, or that judging is a bad thing.
PS is full of them.

 

[kenny]

People are just different.

Which is why fairness is a untenable construct and why there will never be peace in the world or global love and acceptance among humanity.

Hence Kenny's People Vary campaign.

We expect others to be right, because we see ourselves as right.
The problem is there are 7 billion versions of right, not one.

Being open to others being different is not taught.
Being right, as if there is only one version of right, is taught.

 

[msop04]

Hence Kenny's People Vary campaign.

We expect others to be right, because we see ourselves as right.
The problem is there are 7 billion versions of right, not one.

Being open to others being different is not taught.
Being right, as if there is only one version of right, is taught.

kenny!!! I'm glad to see you post! ...too bad you're a little late, as you'll see that there are several here that are "right" and everyone else is "wrong!"

 

[makhro82]

Hence Kenny's People Vary campaign.

We expect others to be right, because we see ourselves as right.
The problem is there are 7 billion versions of right, not one.

Being open to others being different is not taught.
Being right, as if there is only one version of right, is taught.

kenny!!! I'm glad to see you post! ...too bad you're a little late, as you'll see that there are several here that are "right" and everyone else is "wrong!"

If there were no clear rights and wrongs how would we form judgments/opinions, how would are judicial system work, how would employers perform evaluations, etc.

And I'll got out on a limb in saying that I am right in believing it is wrong to spread hate and intolerance, but that probably makes me an intolerant person.

The fact is boycotting was an effective method for racial and sex integration and hopefully the same will hold true for sexual orientation.

 

[packrat]

Well, I invite everyone to look upon me and judge me and find me wanting if you see me drinking the CFA lemonade. There could very well be a business that (collective) you patronize that causes me to question the type of person (collective) you are. Lemme know if Texas Roadhouse or Target is involved in human trafficking or the child sex trade, or support female genital mutilation. I guess I just don't feel like I need to do extensive research into every single aspect of every single business or person I might come into contact with every single day. All it does is give me the impression I'm a lowly little morally corrupt piece of shit b/c I am not living my life the way of those of such moral uprightness and fortitude.