Ethical Issue - Do I rat out my cousin?

[TravelingGal]

Date: 8/7/2008 8:36:48 AM
Author: LitigatorChick
Yowza! I don''t hate my cousin (have very little to do with him and any contact has been good), and as I said, I don''t want to have to do anything. But there was something nagging at my conscience about this one, and that''s why I posted. I really don''t think I am being petty or hateful or anything, just looking for some advise to really ease my mind.

Yes, there is still a lot of speculation here, and one would need to ask more questions and investigate. But I had premised my ethical inquiry on the assumption that what I heard was true.

I agree with the whole ''on the job'' training issue, but I also agree that one person''s mistake can cause serious losses - I see that regularly in litigation.

Canuk, do you have those drinks ready???????????

LC, say for argument''s sake you are not being petty or hateful. I think, however, at the very least you are seeing things in black and white when life is actually many shades of gray.

Just so you could ease your mind and conscience, you would consider ruining a family?

 

[diamondfan]

Sometimes there are ethical issues but no clear cut right or wrong. It is tough to draw that line, but again, if he is capable in his position and doing proper work and being a good guy all around, it is sort of need to know information and I do not think anyone needs to know. It is sort of victimless stuff, does not render his lies (if he did lie) any less wrong, but really no good can come of it, the consequences all around would be pretty bad. Clearly it was in the past, and hopefully that is so not what he is like or is about now, as a parent and an employee. You know bits, not sure the mom would lie about his lying but also not sure why she is blabbing about it either, at a family function. She might need to be quiet for her son's sake too, not really cool for her to be discussing it...I think there are people who really deserve a second chance and the system does not always make it easy to make a go of things. But she is only potentially hurting his family and discretion would be good here on her part.

LC, it is not about pretending you did not hear what you did, but about what you do with the information. I would try to focus on the success story aspect, and as long as he is not like Leo Dicaprio in that movie where he impersonates a pilot or doctor or even a lawyer, as long as he is trained and does his job well, I would just let it go.

 

[MichelleCarmen]

Don''t people lie on their applications all the time? Lying about having a degree is extreme, but don''t applicants often embelish their resumes?

Another thought, plenty of people with college degrees do a terrible job at the place of employment.

LC - as a lawyer, I assume you''ve met many incompetent attorneys with degrees?

Hopefully your cousin is successful in his current position and proves that he has matured beyond his 20s.

 

[bee*]

I think that it''s awful that he lied like that, but I wouldn''t rat him out, much as it annoys me.

 

[purrfectpear]

About 10 years ago or so, Fortune magazine ran an article about the CEO''s of Fortune 500 corporations. They did some detective work and determined that a large percentage (I forget the exact number, but it was over 20%) of the CEO''s claiming degrees did NOT ACTUALLY HAVE the degree. What an eye opener, huh?

I worked with a major aerospace company for 14 years on the military side (top secret clearance) as a senior contract admin. A degree was not required, but strongly preferred. I left in 1997 and in 2003 started trying to submit resumes and get an interview with the same company in a different state. By that time, degrees were still "technically" not required, but all the initial screening/HR was outsourced. I could never understand why someone with my experience and a C.P.M wasn''t even getting to the interview stage. Finally I figured out that I was being screened out prior to a manager even seeing my app. I was one of those people with 700 hours of offshift training, another 64 hours of university, and a CPM. I lied on the app. so I could get past the screening process. The first thing I explained in the interview with the hiring manager, was that I had lied, and why. They laughed, told me not to sweat it, and hired me immediately. If I had known that was the whole issue I could have saved myself 2 years of applications with no results. After that, this particular manager told the HR department that ALL applications were to be submitted for HER screening. No more shoving experienced applicants in the wastecan

I do NOT think it wise, ethical, or fair to lie and keep the lie. If you are discovered, you could lose your job right then and there. I can''t imagine being a CEO with that embarrassment hanging over my head. I had no problem "checking the box" to deal with an outside screening company though.

Just wondering if it''s possible he lied on the app, but came clean during the interview. You would look like a real horse''s patootie then.

 

[miraclesrule]

You bring up a good point purrfectpear. A long time ago I had a friend who was a programmer. Actually I know a lot of programmers, but this one guy smoked pot. When he applied for a "real" job instead of freelancing, he applied at a very well known, very large aerospace company. The hiring manager offered him the position and told him it was contingent on passing a drug screen. My friend (and I use that term loosely, because I haven't talked to him in ages and I don't even know where is anymore, but I know he moved out of state), but anyway, my friend related to me that he told the hiring manager that he smoked pot and probably wouldn't pass a drug screen. So my friend proceeds to tell me that the hiring manager told him what product to buy and how to use it to pass the drug screen.

I was shocked!! I suppose it was a programmer thing, but still. Totally floored me. The guy did take the manager's advice and did pass the test and got the job. Craziness I tell ya...I thought that was a crazy risk by the hiring manager. Not because he was getting a flake for an employee, but that the manager could have easily lost his job if that had been discovered.

 

[LitigatorChick]

Thanks to many of the posters. I have done a lot of thinking and reading your helpful posts, and agree that this is one of those things that I will ignore. As I mentioned, I did not want to do anything, but something was nagging at me. Thank you for providing me with real advise to put my conscience at ease.

To some other posters (I won''t name names), I found your comments rude and insulting. I read my 3 posts on this thread, and in particular, my original thread. I did not indicate that I wanted to do anthing, but that it was bothering me, and I wondered if I ethically had to. I indicated that "one" would need to investigate, but that did not say "I" would investigate (namely, the proper course, if action was required, which I have decided it is not, would be to notify his employer that investigation may be required). It just seems that many posters decided that I am petty and shallow. That is hurtful and unwarranted.

Now, off for a cocktail and perhaps, dare I say it, Holts?

 

[diamondfan]

LC I have two words for you...FALL CLOTHES!

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 8/8/2008 10:27:46 AM
Author: diamondfan
LC I have two words for you...FALL CLOTHES!

HI:

Amen to that! Beside those swaeeeet Zanotti black pumps I jsut bought, I have my line on the Prada Red Chiffon blouse (unreal) and some Dolce and Gabbana grey slacks. Of course, there ARE those other two pair os shoes.....

But that is a whol; other thread....speaking of Fall 2008 must have threads........

cheers--Sharon

 

[moremoremore]

Sorry that you found some comments rude and insulting...but that''s what happens when you post this kind of stuff on a chat forum...

 

[diamondfan]

Canuk, sounds dreamy! Grey is big this year. As is purple?

I am down at the beach living in swim suits and cover ups..

getting home to get my fall clothes and the bar mitzvah clothes organized...

 

[VRBeauty]

LC:

I'm late to this discussion and glad you reached a decision that you can live with... and I want to chime in anyway. I appreciate that you were concerned enough about your cousin's behavior to consider whether you should act. Apparently the field he works in, and the training he's had (whether in school or on-the-job) together ensure that his lack of a degree will not endanger anyone. Many of the positions in which lives are at stake and for which professional, thoroughly trained judgement is a must also require a professional license, which provides an additional level of safety. I trust your cousin is not in one of these fields.

I'm a manager in a government agency. In my agency it's the hiring manager, not the HR department, that is responsible for ensuring that that a candidate has the requisite degree. I always do that and review the transcripts of more recent graduates. Having said that, the traits that really tip the scales for me have little to do with college degrees -- they have to do with skill sets, reasoning, curiosity, and (depending on the position) the experience and background the candidates bring. And character of course... more on that later. For many classifications there are also ways for people who don't have college degrees to promote into positions that otherwise require them, based on their on-the-job experience. What I'm getting at is that your cousin may well be capable and qualified for the position he's in even if he lied to get it. It's also possible that your aunt was unknowingly exagerating, and that he used some other route to get to his current position.

About the character question. Early in my career I had a manager who interviewed a woman who alluded to having a PhD when she was in fact a PhD candidate. The manager dropped the candidate from consideration as soon as she discovered the deception. I was young and green at the time and thought that might be a little harsh, but... suffice it to say that woman was eventually hired elsewhere in the organization, and when I had a chance to work with her as a colleague, I came to understand why my mentor made that decision. Her career options at the agency were ultimately limited more by her character than by her skills. The karma thing cuts both ways -- If your cousin lied to get his position, he gave himself an unfair advantage over other candidates and based his career, and professional relationships, on something that could come crashing down around him at some time. Not a good position for him to be in!