Ethical Issue - Do I rat out my cousin?

[luckystar112]

As someone whose whole job revolves around occupational safety in industrial settings, I can say that one person CAN make one bad decision that can wind up taking the lives of others. Example: Welding on a tank that contained dangerous chemicals before emptying it properly. Boom. There are hundreds of more examples, but that''s the first one I though of since I''m working on that one safety sheet right now.

Anyway, LC, it would really depend on what his job is. But as of right now, I think I''m with the others in the "Nunya Business" camp.

I can definitely relate though, as I knew a guy who lied and said his father was unemployed in order to get thousands in grant money for school while I was working my BUTT of and received nothing.

 

[somethingshiny]

Date: 8/6/2008 3:23:58 PM
Author: luckystar112
As someone whose whole job revolves around occupational safety in industrial settings, I can say that one person CAN make one bad decision that can wind up taking the lives of others. Example: Welding on a tank that contained dangerous chemicals before emptying it properly. Boom. There are hundreds of more examples, but that''s the first one I though of since I''m working on that one safety sheet right now.

BUT, that can happen in a gravel quarry where no one has any degree above possibly a high school diploma. For that matter, my DH works at an industrial factory where dozens of people are killed every year because of their mistakes or the mistakes of others. My point was, if he''s SETTING safety standards, HE won''t be the only one participating. If he''s building bridges, he''s obviously not alone. A person gets on the job training even if they hold a degree in their field. This guy will have as much training as most others, even though he (may have) never had the theoretical training.

 

[blondie23]

Date: 8/6/2008 3:48:46 PM
Author: somethingshiny

Date: 8/6/2008 3:23:58 PM
Author: luckystar112
As someone whose whole job revolves around occupational safety in industrial settings, I can say that one person CAN make one bad decision that can wind up taking the lives of others. Example: Welding on a tank that contained dangerous chemicals before emptying it properly. Boom. There are hundreds of more examples, but that''s the first one I though of since I''m working on that one safety sheet right now.

BUT, that can happen in a gravel quarry where no one has any degree above possibly a high school diploma. For that matter, my DH works at an industrial factory where dozens of people are killed every year because of their mistakes or the mistakes of others. My point was, if he''s SETTING safety standards, HE won''t be the only one participating. If he''s building bridges, he''s obviously not alone. A person gets on the job training even if they hold a degree in their field. This guy will have as much training as most others, even though he (may have) never had the theoretical training.

SS, you took the words right out of my mouth. People get killed not because they didn''t take safety standards 101 in college, they get killed because someone at their job did not train them properly. I agree that the OP''s cousin should have been honest, but not having a degree does not necessarily make him less qualified to do his current job, especially if the majority of the skills needed are learned from on the job training.

 

[fieryred33143]

This entire thing confuses me to no end. I worked for the government and went through 3 months of a background check…and I was going in as an intern. When I was offered a full time, I went through three months of another check…and I’m an auditor (moved on from the gov’t to private). So I really don’t see how they would not have checked this. I can see how a person would lie, get accepted, and then months later they find out (that happened where I work now but it took them about a month to figure it out). But for the government to miss that...it doesn''t make sense. Is it possible that perhaps he was hired into a position that didn''t necessarily require a degree and then promoted because they saw he had potential/job skills to perform this job?

Anyway, I would stay out of it for reasons mentioned by Blondie and I''ll ditto everything she said.

 

[D2B]

Unless he is a doctor or something similiar, think of his family, what will you say to them if he were to lose his job (assuming you are right)???? How will you justify it to his children???????

He seems to be trying to make a go of his life now, let him be, move on with yours. he has his burdens to bear, the destruction of his families life and his job does not need to be a burden you need to bear.

Besides, what outcome do you want? Do you want him to lose his job and income and his family to sturggle, will that make you feel better? What are you trying to achieve by this.
Again, this is his burden, you cant really judge him until you walk in his shoes. You mention his life was off the rails when he was younger, do you really know why or what happend to him, things are not always so straight forward.

Give yourself long term peace and let go of any ill feelings you have, they serve no real purpose.

d2b

 

[diamondfan]

I think our own personal compass about right and wrong and being accountable comes into play here. I agree with whoever said that it is more than likely that he took general sort of classes and likely he claimed his degree was a more generalized one, so it would make sense that he was given on the job training to eliminate any worry that he might miss something. Unless he has sole access to a button that could nuke the planet, I would assume there are checks and balances there, and like someone else said, in any job, accidents happen, even to the most trained person in the most skilled job setting. Patients die on operating tables when every precaution was taken, the top doctors in the world all have that as a risk, due to factors that cannot be controlled or anticipated.

I think it is a horse of another color to be annoyed, feel like he is a sham on some level and feel anger towards him for sort of getting things the easy way when you worked hard. Such is the inequity in life sometimes, it makes me personally insane to see as well, but there is really not much to remedy it. He now has a family depending on him, and is trying to put the past behind him, and this coming to light would likely derail it all. I think as long as he is doing a good job now, is a solid citizen, you can have your personal feelings but it should end there. You can certainly tell him one on one that while you are happy he turned things around and are proud to see his growth, you lack some respect for him for having these somewhat ill gotten gains.

You are certainly allowed to have mixed emotions of happiness for his turn around, annoyance that he was not honest back in the day, and resentment for his getting things the easy way. Life is not black and white and having many emotions would be normal in this case.

 

[luckystar112]

Date: 8/6/2008 3:48:46 PM
Author: somethingshiny

Date: 8/6/2008 3:23:58 PM
Author: luckystar112
As someone whose whole job revolves around occupational safety in industrial settings, I can say that one person CAN make one bad decision that can wind up taking the lives of others. Example: Welding on a tank that contained dangerous chemicals before emptying it properly. Boom. There are hundreds of more examples, but that''s the first one I though of since I''m working on that one safety sheet right now.

BUT, that can happen in a gravel quarry where no one has any degree above possibly a high school diploma. For that matter, my DH works at an industrial factory where dozens of people are killed every year because of their mistakes or the mistakes of others. My point was, if he''s SETTING safety standards, HE won''t be the only one participating. If he''s building bridges, he''s obviously not alone. A person gets on the job training even if they hold a degree in their field. This guy will have as much training as most others, even though he (may have) never had the theoretical training.

Okay I guess I''m slow today. Is your point that fatal accidents happen to people regardless of whether or not they have a degree and on the job training is key? Because if that is what you are saying then I agree with you. Although I am going under the assumption that he used his degree to get a higher position, possibly overlooking others--which I think is extremely messed up if his job requires any knowledge of occupational safety!

Again, it would REALLY depend on exactly what he is doing for a living. There are jobs out there that require a degree in chemistry or engineering or whatever--and if this guy was hired as a supervisor of others without the knowledge of what unsafe work practices are or how dangerous certain hazards can be, then he''s really doing them a diservice. There are some things that you can''t learn with just a CCOHS required 24-hour course and one refresher per year. You know what though, this is all speculative because we have no idea what the heck the guy does. I''m totally assuming...may even have the field of work completely wrong!

With that being said, I AGREE that that excuse is a bit silly. I think overlooking whether a person has a degree or not is virtually unheard of in any profession where lives are at stake and a degree is required.

So uh, I think we agree?

 

[decodelighted]

Sounds more about spite than ethics. You are under no ethical or moral obligation to go out of your way to "report" his supposed lies to people who haven''t asked for your input. And I think it would be selfish & mean-spirited to do so.

HIS ethics are a) a different matter ... and IMO b) none of your concern. And I wonder what you''d even possibly hope to gain from "ratting"? Do you hope he''d lose his job ... that his family goes hungry ... that you get more attention from YOUR family for all you''ve "legitimately" achieved?

Guess you really hate him, huh?

 

[moremoremore]

This is really silly imo...do nothing....go to "Holts" or something...

LOL Deco...right?

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 8/6/2008 12:40:06 PM
Author: LitigatorChick
Hey everyone.


He might be doing well, but what if he misses something important because he does not have the proper training, and as a result, people get killed. I don''t want to disclose too much, but his job involved public safety issues.

Hmm, this is an interesting point. I''ve been following this conversation and generally fall in with the majority - that is, it''s really none of your business, the guy is performing and has turned his life around, so why cause trouble...
But
What if the guy is pretending to be a doctor, and isn''t one ... or pretending to be an engineer, and isn''t one.
These are jobs which really could be life and death...

But even so, is it likely that any mistakes of his would be undetected? Is his job that important? I''ve got an engineer friend whose entire job consists of checking that a pressure tank is adequately cleaned. He assures me, he did not need his degree for his job!

 

[moremoremore]

Lara- he''s like that "doctor" with no license who gave that guy female implants with a cake spatula LOLOL...then I''d tell LOL.....

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 8/6/2008 8:45:36 PM
Author: moremoremore
Lara- he''s like that ''doctor'' with no license who gave that guy female implants with a cake spatula LOLOL...then I''d tell LOL.....

I know, sometimes regional communities that have little opportunity to attract qualified people - seem to be vunerable to dodgy half-rate doctors etc... but who''s to say these doctors have not actually got their degree, and THEN gone off the rails?

When you think government job, often you think paperwork. Sad, but true.

Also, in a situation where a degree is truely necessary, surely they would have asked to sight it?

 

[Dogmom]

I agree with everything said about not telling. However, I''m wondering why his Mom would feel it was acceptable to tell about the lie?

 

[Miranda]

Yep, if he is indeed a doctor inserting implants with a spatula I would say something. Otherwise, I wouldn''t meddle.

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 8/6/2008 8:35:01 PM
Author: moremoremore
This is really silly imo...do nothing....go to 'Holts' or something...

HI:

OMG, good thing I've been doing my Kegels....

I believe the point has been made that the "ends do not justify the means", but do we really need to bring my beloved "Holts" into this? Blasphemy to be sure........I would ask for some pie, but really what I want is a Pina Colada from Tommy Bahama (bar) in PS. Is that too much (or too much name dropping) to ask?

cheers--Sharon

 

[hlmr]

C'mon LitChick, use your rational mind. Are your own hard earned personal designations not enough for you to feel good about yourself, that you have to wonder if 'ratting out your cousin' might bring you some sort of comfort and make the world feel all right again? Feel secure in your own success, and leave those who feel a need to lie and/or cheat to get ahead, to live out their own destiny's.

Think about it.......do you really want to be a rat, and why? Especially when it will affect the lives of your cousin's children.

We have all known relatives, friends or co-workers that have cheated to get ahead, but at the end of the day, they are just cheating themselves, and that will eventually catch up with them. Patience is a virtue.

p.s. btw mmm, please and thank you don't be slinging arrows at 'Holts'. It is really all we have up here that carries all those yummy designer names.

 

[miraclesrule]

Not that this has anything to do with the situation, but since I work in occupational risk and safey I feel qualified to voice my opinion. I work with a LOT of incompetent people with a degree, as well as a LOT of competent people without a degree and vice versa.

An education is an opportunity not a guarantee of brilliance or money. Bill Gates is brilliant and isn''t he a college dropout?

I don''t have a degree and I am in Safety and Risk Management. Just being a mother was my best education in Safety. (Well, maybe the fact that I drank bleach at the age of 2 and had to get my stomach pumped....or the fact that I fell out of a moving car before seatbelts at age 4....or that I got stuck in bars on a fence and firemen had to cut them to get me out....or the fact that I caught my baby brothers foot in a tricycle spoke when he was 3 and it cut open his big toe...who knows what brought me to my occupation)

I have taught Insurance Education and Safety courses for other people working toward a degree. I don''t mean this to belittle anyones'' education, but there are a lot of Mensa people who are on welfare. Education does not equal intelligence.

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 8/6/2008 10:11:13 PM
Author: canuk-gal

Date: 8/6/2008 8:35:01 PM
Author: moremoremore
This is really silly imo...do nothing....go to 'Holts' or something...

HI:

OMG, good thing I've been doing my Kegels....

I believe the point has been made that the 'ends do not justify the means', but do we really need to bring my beloved 'Holts' into this? Blasphemy to be sure........I would ask for some pie, but really what I want is a Pina Colada from Tommy Bahama (bar) in PS. Is that too much (or too much name dropping) to ask?

cheers--Sharon

OMG, LOL Sharon!!!

Ditto Miracles too. LOL "I work with a LOT of incompetent people with a degree"

so true sometimes!!!

 

[LaraOnline]

Date: 8/7/2008 12:19:39 AM
Author: miraclesrule

An education is an opportunity not a guarantee of brilliance or money. Bill Gates is brilliant and isn't he a college dropout?

Education does not equal intelligence.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, a lot of people get caught up in the 'qualifications race', and lose sight of the fact that a degree is in many cases a rather oblique aspect to a career.
I can see that some particularly technical degrees, such as town planning, law, and in the sciences would be DIRECTLY related to the work that one does, but for many people (esp in arts/humanities), degrees can act as a kind of gate-keeper function, to keep the riff raff out!

 

[miraclesrule]

Yeah, I am aka as the Erin Brockovich of law.

 

[LitigatorChick]

Yowza! I don''t hate my cousin (have very little to do with him and any contact has been good), and as I said, I don''t want to have to do anything. But there was something nagging at my conscience about this one, and that''s why I posted. I really don''t think I am being petty or hateful or anything, just looking for some advise to really ease my mind.

Yes, there is still a lot of speculation here, and one would need to ask more questions and investigate. But I had premised my ethical inquiry on the assumption that what I heard was true.

I agree with the whole "on the job" training issue, but I also agree that one person''s mistake can cause serious losses - I see that regularly in litigation.

Canuk, do you have those drinks ready???????????

 

[moremoremore]

Canuk ! LOL.... I couldn''t resist! It was too easy

 

[Skippy123]

Date: 8/7/2008 8:36:48 AM
Author: LitigatorChick
Yowza! I don't hate my cousin (have very little to do with him and any contact has been good), and as I said, I don't want to have to do anything. But there was something nagging at my conscience about this one, and that's why I posted. I really don't think I am being petty or hateful or anything, just looking for some advise to really ease my mind.

Yes, there is still a lot of speculation here, and one would need to ask more questions and investigate. But I had premised my ethical inquiry on the assumption that what I heard was true.

I agree with the whole 'on the job' training issue, but I also agree that one person's mistake can cause serious losses - I see that regularly in litigation.

Canuk, do you have those drinks ready???????????

Are you going to start questioning him?

 

[littlelysser]

I'd really really REALLY recommend letting this go. Really.

It is not your place to ask questions and investigate...

 

[gailrmv]

Date: 8/7/2008 11:06:58 AM
Author: littlelysser
I''d really really REALLY recommend letting this go. Really.


It is not your place to ask questions and investigate...

Ditto.

 

[Bia]

Date: 8/7/2008 11:11:15 AM
Author: TanDogMom

Date: 8/7/2008 11:06:58 AM
Author: littlelysser
I''d really really REALLY recommend letting this go. Really.


It is not your place to ask questions and investigate...

Ditto.

Thritto.

No point. At all. You are trying to turn this into "something" when it has nothing to do with you. And, he''s your family...think about that.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

What your cousin B did was wrong...clearly, evidently and on so so so many levels. But, I really do not think it is your place to ruin (and it would ruin) his life.

Sure, he''s a smuck for doing what he did. And I''m sure every time his boss says "B, please come into my office and close the door" he gets the butt crack sweat (which is punishment enough if you ask me). I''m sure he''s terrified that the bottom will drop out, that he will be found out, and have to take his lumps. But it isn''t your job to decide if or when that happens.

I can understand that you take it as a personal blow...since you did earn your degree...but I''m almost 99.99999% positive that he wasn''t thinking about all your personal sacrafice when he was fiilling out his application.

And truthfully, who would you be hurting my disclosing the truth? Him? Yes, but he''s already probably punishing himself in a million little ways daily. His wife? Yes, she''d probably be crushed beyond words. His children? Absolutely. And now, is that worth it? Would that make you feel better? I bet not so much...you''d probably feel more guilt than justification.

I really hope you think long and hard before preceeding with the truth. Although honesty is a great policy (and I truly believe that BTW) there are certain time when the tenticles of hurt would reach out way to far and touch way to many people.

Just my opinion.

 

[canuk-gal]

Date: 8/7/2008 8:36:48 AM
Author: LitigatorChick
Yowza! I don''t hate my cousin (have very little to do with him and any contact has been good), and as I said, I don''t want to have to do anything. But there was something nagging at my conscience about this one, and that''s why I posted. I really don''t think I am being petty or hateful or anything, just looking for some advise to really ease my mind.

Yes, there is still a lot of speculation here, and one would need to ask more questions and investigate. But I had premised my ethical inquiry on the assumption that what I heard was true.

I agree with the whole ''on the job'' training issue, but I also agree that one person''s mistake can cause serious losses - I see that regularly in litigation.

Canuk, do you have those drinks ready???????????

HI:

Doubt I could duplicate those drinks if I wanted to....need the ambiance as well....I have to stick to wine here....(and not THIS early....

)

From a practical standpoint, do you not have enough on your plate already; stresses personally and with extended family, demanding job and busy homelife??? Is this something you really want or need to get into?

You should be careful what you "wish" for......despite your well intentions, I don''t see much "good or right" coming from your queries.

cheers--Sharon

 

[blondie23]

Date: 8/7/2008 11:25:00 AM
Author: canuk-gal

Date: 8/7/2008 8:36:48 AM
Author: LitigatorChick
Yowza! I don''t hate my cousin (have very little to do with him and any contact has been good), and as I said, I don''t want to have to do anything. But there was something nagging at my conscience about this one, and that''s why I posted. I really don''t think I am being petty or hateful or anything, just looking for some advise to really ease my mind.

Yes, there is still a lot of speculation here, and one would need to ask more questions and investigate. But I had premised my ethical inquiry on the assumption that what I heard was true.

I agree with the whole ''on the job'' training issue, but I also agree that one person''s mistake can cause serious losses - I see that regularly in litigation.

Canuk, do you have those drinks ready???????????

HI:

Doubt I could duplicate those drinks if I wanted to....need the ambiance as well....I have to stick to wine here....(and not THIS early....

)

From a practical standpoint, do you not have enough on your plate already; stresses personally and with extended family, demanding job and busy homelife??? Is this something you really want or need to get into?

You should be careful what you ''wish'' for......despite your well intentions, I don''t see much ''good or right'' coming from your queries.

cheers--Sharon

DITTO. I guess I''m still confused as to what you hoped to gain from this? Would this make you sleep better at night because you were vindicated? This is not your life....stop worrying about other people''s issues (which he will have to eventually deal with) and start worrying about your own...live your life, not his!!

I would also strongly urge you to let this go.

 

[VegasAngel]

Date: 8/7/2008 8:36:48 AM
Author: LitigatorChick
Yowza! I don''t hate my cousin (have very little to do with him and any contact has been good), and as I said, I don''t want to have to do anything. But there was something nagging at my conscience about this one, and that''s why I posted. I really don''t think I am being petty or hateful or anything, just looking for some advise to really ease my mind.

Yes, there is still a lot of speculation here, and one would need to ask more questions and investigate. But I had premised my ethical inquiry on the assumption that what I heard was true.

I agree with the whole ''on the job'' training issue, but I also agree that one person''s mistake can cause serious losses - I see that regularly in litigation.

Canuk, do you have those drinks ready???????????

LC I hope you feel a little better by being able to vent/get it out of your system, here.