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a (somewhat) frustrating search for a special sapphire

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goldfish17

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 20, 2014
Messages
16
Hi everyone,

I have followed the sapphire threads for a while now, and I've been so impressed by how helpful and supportive everyone is on this forum. I hope you can provide some advice on my sapphire search.

I'm looking for a blue sapphire for an e-ring: ~3 carats, preferably emerald cut, but the right cushion cut could work. Medium to medium-dark royal blue, intense to vivid in color, at least eye clean. The debate has been heat-only or no heat. and I started the search looking at both.

For the last few months, I looked at both off-the-shelf rings (ie NSC) as well as custom cuts gems. I emailed several precision cutters recommend by the forum (eg Jeff, Gene); they were super nice, but didn't have any roughs that could work :(

Here are my 3 options currently:
1. A heat-only emerald cut sapphire a friend in the trade came across in Tucson. It's the perfect size, lovely color, clarity and quite sparkly in person. The only reservation is its heat treated. The vendor is asking for $2500 per carat (this is after a trade discount!), which seems on the high end for heated gems. But it looks like a quality sapphire. It comes with a certification by C Dunaigre(?). I've attached a rather fuzzy picture, it's the best ones the vendor sent, but my friend assures me it looks better in person.
ec_sapphire.jpg

2. A cushion cut, untreated ring from NSC (I'm aware of people's concerns with NSC). Based on the description, it looks promising. Its ~40% more for the sapphire, which is expected for untreated plus the NSC margin. I do have a slight preference for untreated (it just feels more special), but i'm weary of NSC, and the cushion cut is not my top choice (it also seems very deep 8.74L x 6.81W x 5.94H). I wish I could see the stone in person, but we re based in London :(.
nsc_cushion.jpg
nsc_cushion_0.jpg

3. NSC also has an emerald cut stone, ~2.5c but the dimensions are the same as the 3 carat stones above since its more shallowly cut. the per carat price is $4700 (!) which seems really high, although it looks nice (on the site).
nsc_ec_sapphire.jpg
http://www.thenaturalsapphirecompan...ires/p-48649-emerald-cut-blue-sapphire-b4967/

I would love to hear your thoughts on:
1. The general quality of the stones
2. How important is heat treatment? i realize its a personal preference. But is it possible to create a seemingly high quality stone from what started out as "moldy potatoes" through heat? its one thing if its just one time, heat-only treatment (as the vendor stated) to slightly'improve the color etc, but i'm afraid to overpay for something that started out cheap and ugly but made pretty through lots of treatments. At the same time, I don't want to pass on this lovely (heated) stone, only to keep searching futilely for another year.
3. Which would you pick? Or should I keep looking?

Many many thanks in advance for your advice!
 
I like the first one the best. Price is a bit high if it's less than 3ct and heated(Did I miss the weight on it?). That said, it does have your fav cut, color/saturation also better than the other two IMO. The second stone looks to have good saturation in pic 1, but less pretty in pic 2. I would not consider the other two based on your description and vendor picture.
 
Thanks OTL! The first ec (heated) stone is 3.03c ($2500/c). The NSC cushion is 3.18c. And the unheated ec from NSC is 2.56c ($4700/c :shock: ).
 
I would go with the first one. Lovely color!
I originally wanted unheated too, but have decided I'm okay with heat only to get all my other requirements of a stone, cut, color size etc
 
The first one looks nice, but for the window.
the second in the hand shot looks to have the dreaded 1/2+1/2 extinction. And cost. Can it be bought without their setting? I have heard their cast settings are quite porous and prone to breaking and that after two returns for broken settings within the warranty period they become quite prickly to deal with. And even so it is pricey.
The third one will be black in all lights.
 
The first is my favorite of all three. It seems to hit the mark on a nice silky blue :love:
 
Thanks everyone! I think I like the color of the first one the best too. Any thoughts on heated vs non-heat? I feel like I'm overthinking myself into a dizzy :|

Vapid, what's the dreaded 1/2+1/2 extinction? I'm still learning... Are you saying without the setting, you would prefer the second stone?
 
1 and 2 both look good to me. I don't mind half-half reflection; it is not true extinction, and many members of the trade have tried to explain this on PS. Many stones will have areas that go on/off due to the way they are cut. You'll see this in other shapes that are not elongated (like rounds or squares), but the areas that go on/off are usually more evenly distributed instead affecting half of the stone at once (like on an elongated cushion or oval).

To avoid half-half reflection, you can try to find a square cushion; because you like emerald cuts, I am guessing you prefer elongated cushions over square cushions. You can also try to find a square cushion that is cut differently, with the pavilion more angled toward one point at the bottom.

I do not like 3. It looks like it has triangular areas on the corners and the edges that look truly extinct (like a black hole). The top part of the stone also looks more purple than the bottom; this may be due to uneven coloration, or zoning, which is common in sapphires.
 
i really quite love the cobalt color of the first one
 
The EC would be my top choice; good colouration and it's decently cut.
The NSC cushion looks all right colour-wise but the darkness in the second picture will bother me to no end.
The 3rd stone is definitely out. I dislike the colour and cut; too dark, gray and lifeless.
 
hi,

welcome to the world of emerald cut sapphire admirers! regarding the sapphires you posted, the color of the first is far superior to the others and hence the price (i am not very good at evaluating color on a screen, but this is so obvious that even i can tell). i am not up-to-date on current pricing for 3ct sapphires (heated or unheated) -- you should ask your friend in the trade. emerald cuts tend to be slightly more expensive than ovals or cushions due to their relatively rarity. the 2nd sapphire looks more purple than blue to me, and the 3rd is a dark pit.

regarding whether you should pull the trigger on the first -- it depends. in terms of sapphires (and colored stones generally), color is king. i would much rather have a heat-only sapphire with fine color than an unheated sapphire with mediocre color. of course, i'd most prefer to have an unheated sapphire with fine color. however, this comes at a price (literally). assuming that the pricing of the first sapphire is reflective of the market, a comparable unheated sapphire could cost about $5000/ct. so then, budget becomes a consideration. back to the first sapphire. to me, it looks like it has a window, the area in the middle of the stone where you can clearly see through to the paper. would a window bother you? finally, the stone looks a little "chubby" rather than elongated. what are the dimensions? and most importantly, what do you like? shape is really a personal preference. some people like 'em chubbier and others longer!

>>> a bit of a digression here. i have never heard of the lab certificate that accompanies the first stone. pls search these threads and read about certs for colored stones. i think there is consensus that in the u.s., agl will be your best bet for a colored stone. not all labs can test for the variety of treatments and given the price you are paying, you should be absolutely certain that that stone is heat only. i would make any purchase contingent on it.

this all leads to the final question -- how much time do you have? since this is an engagement ring, presumably you want to have it in time for a proposal and certainly before the wedding. the bad news is that finding a stone that meets all of your parameters (especially the emerald cut) could take some time. how long have you been looking? where and how? if you have "scoured the earth" and haven't found anything to your liking, this may be your best bet in the short term. if you haven't, then we may be able to help you unearth new sources here.

as for me, i was open to emerald or cushion cuts and happened to find my emerald. but a close #2 was a cushion. i saw the most ovals, but most were poorly cut so there were bow ties, 1/2 and 1/2 extinction and a lot of other stuff going on.

good luck!
 
thanks again everyone for your thoughts. its much appreciated!

slksapphire,

You have hit all the issues I've been struggling with!! Basically i want a non-treated, emerald cut stone with gorgeous color and clarity... so something just like yours but smaller :love: The budget is somewhat flexible, what i really care about are quality and value. Timing and location are working against us in the search. We are currently based in London and have been searching for ~3 months. We've met with 2 recommended jewelers in London (one by Pandora and one through my friend in the trade). We also emailed 4 or 5 precision cutters in the US (the most frequently mentioned ones on PS), but nobody had emerald cuts or a rough thats the right color and size.

My friend in the trade saw the first sapphire in Tucson and raved about the color. It is indeed slightly wider than ideal for me (its 8.5x6.66x5.24mm), but I can live with that. She didn't mention the window, so hopefully its not too noticeable (then again, she doesn't specialize in colored stones). Again, i think i could live with the window. the heat issue is what tripped me up, as i keep going back and forth. I totally agree with you that a beautiful treated stone is better than a mediocre non-treated one. it would just be nice to have everything: non-treated, beautiful, and available now... wishful thinking i know :lol:

as for certification, i was weary as well about a firm with limited information out there. But when i googled him again last night, the 2 following links made me feel a little better. If he's good enough for Christie's, he's probably legit. Although i may look into AGL as well as the vendor is US based.
http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/jewelry/a-unique-sapphire-and-diamond-ring-5138917-details.aspx
http://www.gubelingemlab.ch/PDF/Newsletters/2008/Gubelin_Newsletter_21_Wednesday_January_30_2008.pdf

i'm still a bit torn, but leaning towards pulling the trigger on the first stone. While we haven't "scoured the earth", we have explored all the obvious venues through recommendations. so i'm a bit lost. If i know another 3-6 months would yield the perfect stone, i would be willing to wait. but alas there are no guarantees. I definitely don't want to wait another year. And i think i'm driving my boyfriend crazy with my OCD and indecisiveness :(sad

Any other advice would be really appreciated... and its just nice to talk this through with people who are so much more knowledgeable than me!!
 
The good thing about the first one is that it's not been taken under overexposed too strong lights (unlike the face pic of the others), so the color should not disappoint.
Maybe you could ask your friends for a few more pictures, light, low-light, hands, from face and tilted, profile, back to help you feel more comfortable with this stone, or a small film made with a camera, a Skype interview with the stone. Even if the result is not professional and imperfect, it might help you "feel" more this stone.
From then hopefully it should be easier to decide whether it's ok for you or no. On this pic and hard data, I understand that a decision is hard to make, especially as one criteria unheated is not met.

Regarding the certif provided, I would worry that an independent might not have the most up-to-date and performant machines allowing to identify the additional treatments to heating. And in the Christies case, you mentioned, he was only one of 3 reports confirming the origin and he might have some specific expertise on this.
For the additional certificate, an offer of paying it part or full but leaving the logistics to the vendor to limit international transfers should work, especially if you explain your issues and state what would be the only findings that would stop you for buying ultimately.
 
Thanks for the advice, Lea. I just spoke with AGL and will contact the vendor next to see how to proceed.

The issue was that the stone is supposed to go to HK next week, and AGL's turnaround time is ~3 weeks right now. Was concerned that the stone may not come back from HK given what I've heard about the show. Hence my comment earlier about timing is not great.
 
given your search to date and your criteria, i think you should go for the first stone. i say this because my sapphire was for a right hand ring and i had all the time in the world to look for it. i think there is a decent chance you could be looking for quite some time, though one never knows since luck plays such a big role in this process. i don't know much about the market for colored gemstones in london, but i suspect it doesn't attract gem fairs like tucson or hong kong. this only makes your search harder.

is there any way for you to purchase the stone through the vendor at the hk show? my guess is that agl will be at the show, too, and chris smith may be able to provide a preliminary certification immediately (he did for me two years ago). then, contingent on that, you could wire payment to the vendor and the vendor could ship the stone to you in london.

i feel like there is definitely a way to get the stone in your hands, though it may require jumping through a few hoops. and yes, demand for high quality sapphires is incredibly strong in asia and at the hong kong show. if you decide this is the one, i would encourage you to pull out all the stops to try to get it before it is on display in hong kong.
 
Thanks for your comment!

We just heard back from the seller in NY. He's taking the first EC stone to sapphire to HK on Wednesday, so we need to make a decision by Tues :errrr: we didn't ask about the option of having the stone tested in HK yet (was hoping to keep the stone in NY), although I spoke with AGL on Friday and they said they will be in HK and could turn around a preliminary report in 48 hours. The seller did say if we bought this in NY and an AGL report comes back as anything besides heat only, we would get a full refund. We re less worried about getting the stone to London, as we are Americans and my family actually lives in NY. So we could pick it up locally and have family members bring it to us when they visit in 2 months.

The seller is actually a wholesaler, and he's talking to us through our friend in the trade. while he's been very nice and prompt, he doesn't seem to have as many pictures to show us. And our friend is in fact a designer, so she's not very familiar with sapphires. It just feels like pulling teeth with each back and forth.

In the meantime, I went back to topgem's website. We had met with the vendor in London a few weeks ago and nothing really jumped out at us, esp in emerald cuts. This time, I did come across an untreated cushion... 2.5c but similar dimensions as the 3.03c. I can't remember if I already saw this or not. At £2700 (~$4500, no report though), it now seems like a bargain compared to $7500 for a treated stone. Although it does say slight inclusions. What do you think about the stone?? Here's the link:
http://www.topgem.co.uk/acatalog/Untreated_Blue_Sapphire_1026133.html

Which brings me to the question of cost... 7500 seems like a lot for a treated stone (from a wholesaler no less!). Do you guys think the color justifies it? I'm going to email the NY seller again to hopefully get a better picture. I know the London vendor goes to Burma and Sri Lanka periodically, so will email him again to see if he has new inventory (I think the inventory turnover is limited to be honest).
 
what is the seller's return policy (forgetting about the proof that it is only heat treated)?
 
SS has provided excellent guidance and advice; I am in full agreement on all the points she made as to choosing colour over treatment in this case because what you are looking for is extremely restrictive (size, colour, shape, and cut) without much time on your side (e-ring). Her suggestion of attempting to get the stone before it goes to HK (with a good return/refund policy) is also good because once it gets there, it may not come back as the Asians have deep pockets and are buying a lot of quality gems.
 
Thanks SS and Chrono!! the vendor just sent over a few more pictures. the stone looks a bit darker and the window is definitely more noticeable. would the window close up a bit once its set? i'm still on the fence given the price, are we massively overpaying?

i guess its decision time tonight...

3_33.jpg
3_36.jpg
image_1281.jpg
3_35.jpg
 
The window is pretty big. I don't think its an absurd price given today's sapphire prices. But the window would bother me--even if it "closes" (isn't obvious) in a setting, you will never get light bouncing of this part of the stone--it will be a lifeless shady bit in the middle.

Treatment is also a problem for me. I'd take a slightly lesser color to have an untreated sapphire. The very thing that is fun about colored stones for me is that they are beautiful things that we happen upon that we did not create, though we peel off the outer layers. With a heat treated stone, we are manipulating the color of what is often a not-so-pretty rock, making it something we found and then enhanced in a big oven. So it is now not just a found beauty, but one which we helped to create just a bit more from the inside out. I take it I am idiosyncratic in how I prioritize this.

If it were me, I would keep looking and inquire about buying the NSC stone loose. But if you are running short on time and at your wit's end, you may need to make a more pragmatic decision. Very few people get perfect stones, and getting a pretty stone is still a success.
 
The TopGem is also windowed but worth exploring. I seem to remember someone saying that you should visit them as they do not post all of their inventory online.
 
goldfish,

very very important -- what is the seller's return policy? if he has a reasonable one (like returns allowed without restocking fee for any reason for x days), then i think the stone is worth buying so that you can see it in person.

i am not as fussed about the sapphire looking darker in the latest set of photographs. sapphires look different in different kinds of light and at different times of the day. you really need to have the stone in hand and inspect it in various settings, preferably on your hand.

the window is more worrisome to me. i have no idea whether the window would close a bit in a setting (hopefully someone who knows more about this can chime in). for me, personally, i could not live with a window like that. however, this is all about personal preferences. as you may know, my sapphire has a visible inclusion that is ok for me but i am sure that others would reject.

as for pricing, as i mentioned, i am not in the market for a 3ct+ sapphire right now so i don't know precisely. but it doesn't seem too out of whack to me (assuming the color is truly fine). again, i hope that maybe a dealer or someone who was at tucson could comment.

good luck, and let us know what you decide.
 
Hi Slksapphire and everyone for your thoughts and suggestions. After a painfully indecisive evening, we decided this morning to wait/pass on the EC sapphire :(

I realized that I just wasn't excited about the stone. While i love the color and the shape, there are 3 factors against it: treatment, window and price. If it was untreated, I would be ok with the window. If it was better cut, I could be ok with treatment bc the color is lovely. If it was cheaper, I'd consider having the window fixed thru recutting. But as it is, I'm having trouble reconciling these factors. I felt like I wanted to buy it bc I just wanted to stop searching, which seems like a bad reason.

The vendor also responded this morning re the return policy: store credit only within 30 days. That's barely enough time to get a second opinion from AGL and send this to/from London. And it's a credit not a refund. So that confirmed our decision to wait.

I realize this may not come back from HK, which makes me quite sad, as I do like the color and emerald cuts are hard to find. But this is something I have to look at everyday for the rest of life, and I want to LOVE it.

It's quite tough to search from London when most of the vendors are in the US. Irregardless of shipping, we have to pay 20% VAT every time we buy something and I'm not sure how to get it back if we decide to return it. And I simply haven't seen much inventory in the last 2 months. I'm open to an elongated cushion to widen the search. And if anyone has any suggestions, please let me know. I feel a bit lost...

The (frustrating) search continues...
 
Niel|1393346969|3622690 said:
http://www.thegemtrader.com/Jun13BSapphirePage.htm
Click to expand...

Looks like it has potential, Niel but the OP did say one of the reasons they turned down the current sapph was because of its heat treatment.
 
minousbijoux|1393356161|3622784 said:
Niel|1393346969|3622690 said:
http://www.thegemtrader.com/Jun13BSapphirePage.htm
Click to expand...

Looks like it has potential, Niel but the OP did say one of the reasons they turned down the current sapph was because of its heat treatment.
Click to expand...


Ah rats sorry OP :wavey:
 
Thanks Niel :wavey: hi bijoux! :)

Thanks for following up. I think heat is ok if the color makes up for it. I'm trying to open up my criteria a bit. The stone looks quite nice and reasonably priced too. It's a bit on the light side to me and the dimension is ~1.7:1, which seems like slightly on the long slide.

I do really appreciate you sending the link. It's a vendor i hadn't heard of before.
 
Thanks Niel :wavey: hi bijoux! :)

Thanks for following up. I think heat is ok if the color makes up for it. I'm trying to open up my criteria a bit. The stone looks quite nice and reasonably priced too. It's a bit on the light side to me and the dimension is ~1.7:1, which seems like slightly on the long slide.

I do really appreciate you sending the link. It's a vendor i hadn't heard of before.
 
Brad at The Gem Trader is reputable and he stands by his products. I have bought from him.
 
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