Anyone heard of "top brown" diamonds? Quick Question...

[Kymbers]

I was at my local B&M this evening and the jeweler mentioned "top brown" diamonds and how there's a risk of receiving one over the internet regardless of the color grade on the GIA report. She said it had something to do with where diamonds were found such as Africa etc. I was under the impression that these "top brown" diamonds were only applicable to diamonds much lower like M-K and not to colorless ones from F-D. Can anyone please help clarify?

Thank you in advance,
~Kimberley

 

[JulieN]

https://www.pricescope.com/communit...n-color-vs-champagne-colored-diamonds.101643/

 

[yssie]

Here is a quote from a post last year (Paul S.) addressing this question: I would say that ''top light brown'' is not equivalent to I-J-colour. To me, it is closer to K-L-M, with ''top-top light brown'' being more I-J"
([URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-color-grade-with-brown-tone-what-discount-to-expect.145484/?hilit=david%20pink']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/i-color-grade-with-brown-tone-what-discount-to-expect.145484/?hilit=david%20pink[/URL])


I believe if the colour of the tint in a stone is brown this is noted on a GIA/AGS report, so if there is no notation you can assume the tint is yellow, someone correct if I am mistaken? I've seen the brown notation in the faintly coloured grades but I don't recall ever having seen a "brown G"..?

FWIW the human eye is more sensitive to yellow than to brown, so a 'yellow H' would look more tinted to the eyes than a similarly saturated 'brown' H. Brown modifier notation might lower the market value of a stone too because there is definite bias against, so I'm thinking these stones could be very good values.. David from DBL posted a light brown radiant that looked almost pink in colour in the thread linked above, another odd (and IMO desirable!) characteristic

Another thread on brown in near-colourless diamonds: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/brownish-tone-negative-in-colorless-diamonds.153060/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/brownish-tone-negative-in-colorless-diamonds.153060/[/URL]

 

[Lorelei]

I was at my local B&M this evening and the jeweler mentioned "top brown" diamonds and how there's a risk of receiving one over the internet regardless of the color grade on the GIA report. She said it had something to do with where diamonds were found such as Africa etc. I was under the impression that these "top brown" diamonds were only applicable to diamonds much lower like M-K and not to colorless ones from F-D. Can anyone please help clarify?

Thank you in advance,
~Kimberley

Hi Kymbers,

' Top light brown' diamonds are lower quality stones that can sometimes be found in inexpensive jewellery pieces sold in some stores, they can face up fairly white but look brownish from the side. They are used because they are cheaper stones that give a reasonable face up appearance. If you buy from one of the trusted vendors, you are not going to end up with one of these stones, I respectfully disagree with the opinion of this jeweller.

 

[clgwli]

I was at my local B&M this evening and the jeweler mentioned "top brown" diamonds and how there's a risk of receiving one over the internet regardless of the color grade on the GIA report. She said it had something to do with where diamonds were found such as Africa etc. I was under the impression that these "top brown" diamonds were only applicable to diamonds much lower like M-K and not to colorless ones from F-D. Can anyone please help clarify?

Thank you in advance,
~Kimberley

Hi Kymbers,

' Top light brown' diamonds are lower quality stones that can sometimes be found in inexpensive jewellery pieces sold in some stores, they can face up fairly white but look brownish from the side. They are used because they are cheaper stones that give a reasonable face up appearance. If you buy from one of the trusted vendors, you are not going to end up with one of these stones, I respectfully disagree with the opinion of this jeweller.

Lower quality? They may be lower money but I really do not think that a color difference makes a stone inferior quality.

I do know GIA will make a notation of the stone is brown in tone instead of the standard yellow on the report. One of my favorite stones I've seen was an "L, faint brown" that was light brown in tone. The color was amazing!!!! So IMO I wouldn't call it lower quality. Just a different in shade. Then again I go for color in a lot of my stones so I see nothing wrong with a brownish diamond at all.

 

[Lorelei]

I was at my local B&M this evening and the jeweler mentioned "top brown" diamonds and how there's a risk of receiving one over the internet regardless of the color grade on the GIA report. She said it had something to do with where diamonds were found such as Africa etc. I was under the impression that these "top brown" diamonds were only applicable to diamonds much lower like M-K and not to colorless ones from F-D. Can anyone please help clarify?

Thank you in advance,
~Kimberley

Hi Kymbers,

' Top light brown' diamonds are lower quality stones that can sometimes be found in inexpensive jewellery pieces sold in some stores, they can face up fairly white but look brownish from the side. They are used because they are cheaper stones that give a reasonable face up appearance. If you buy from one of the trusted vendors, you are not going to end up with one of these stones, I respectfully disagree with the opinion of this jeweller.

Lower quality? They may be lower money but I really do not think that a color difference makes a stone inferior quality.
I do know GIA will make a notation of the stone is brown in tone instead of the standard yellow on the report. One of my favorite stones I've seen was an "L, faint brown" that was light brown in tone. The color was amazing!!!! So IMO I wouldn't call it lower quality. Just a different in shade. Then again I go for color in a lot of my stones so I see nothing wrong with a brownish diamond at all.

I think it is a matter of opinion, to me some of these stones are lower quality, others might feel differently and that is perfectly fine. But there are indeed other diamonds that have brown tones which are stunning and I am not referring to these types of stones.

When I refer to these diamonds being of lower quality, I am referring to the TLB's which are used in mass produced jewellery. For example, in tennis bracelets which are sold very cheaply.

Hope this clarifies.

 

[Rockdiamond]

A few issues raised here
1- scare tactics used to denigrate Internet sellers in general
I think that's just dirty pool- not to say that there are not bad sellers on the web- there are. But the same applies to some brick and mortar stores. Make sure you shop sellers who offer stones with GIA reports and you'll be making a good start. Make sure you check the seller's reputation in any case.

2- light brown diamonds: GIA will note the presence of brown, even in higher colors.
The term "top light brown" is a bit ambiguous.
It has Vern used to describe lower quality stones- but in my opinion thats abusing the term.
True top light brown stones can be gorgeous, so I think painting with a broad brush creates misimpressions

Yssie- I do remember a stone of F color that had brown noted on the GIA report
You make a great point about how brown is more subtle than yellow tint- therefore can actually be desirable
Also that in the K-L color range light brown can create some amazing and lovely hues

 

[kenny]

With regards to "quality" vs. individual preferences...
Price is where the rubber meets the road.

Higher quality always costs more.
I think quality applies to things that have measurable characteristics.

With something like art, you may not like an $80 million Jackson Pollock because to you it's just paint dribbles.
I think someone arguing that price does not necessarily equate to quality in such art has a legitimate point.

There is high quality ice cream made with only pure milk, cream, sugar, eggs and vanilla, instead of unpronounceable chemical gunk.
But you could not say Chocolate is a higher quality flavor than strawberry.
Flavor preference is pure opinion.

Diamond quality is not subjective.
The 4 Cs are measurable.
They directly affect price, so to me describing a diamond with higher specs and price as higher in quality is reasonable.

That said, you may ...

1. Tolerate a brownish S-T I2, because it gets you a 2-ct diamond for your budget, and try to convince others and even yourself that you prefer S-T I2, when actually you would have bought higher color and clarity 2-ct if you had the budget.

2. Sincerely, actually, honestly prefer a 2 ct brownish S-T I2 because your preferences for clarity and color are not like those of the majority, and it fit perfectly into your budget.

3. Actually prefer a 2 ct brownish S-T I2, even though you are a billionaire and could afford huge D IFs.
This is possible.

Personally, I compromised and settled for a 2.26 ct F VVS2 because I couldn't afford a 2.26 ct D IF.
I didn't want a 1.x D IF for the same price so I settled for a lower quality than a D IF.
No problem.
We all get the quality we pay for, no need to get all sensitive over the use of the term quality.
It doesn't mean anything and besides, your diamond is no reflection on you personally.

 

[Rockdiamond]

A very thought provoking topic Kenny- and one that's proved to be very controversial here on PS.
I disagree with the part I italicized- and feel that the part I underlined is for more applicable to diamonds- especially when it comes to color.
Is a K color less durable than a D?
NO
Does a K sparkle less than a D?
Not for that reason.
What type of sparkle is best?
Again, we're getting into subjective areas that can easily be confused with objective ratings. Is a "super ideal round brilliant" better than an old mine brilliant? It may cost more, but I don;t feel that is accurate to say it's "better"
Same for color.
A Fancy Vivid Yellow cost exponentially more than an S-T color- of course I need to live in this world and accept this fact.
But I still don't feel a Vivid Yellow is "better" than an S-T for that reason alone. Or because the market has decided it should cost more.

One area where I feel we can make a case that diamond ratings are more closely associated with what we think of as "quality" is clarity.
You used the example of an I2 diamond.
There can very well be cases of an imperfect diamond having durability issues.
There's an area where we can more safely call one diamond "better" than another. That being: a diamond who's integrity is compromised due to imperfection.
Your VVS2 is a lesser clarity than an IF. But I don't think your VVS2 is a "less good" diamond than a Flawless- but it is less costly.
The word "quality" and "clarity" or "color grade" should not be interchanged IMO.

With regards to "quality" vs. individual preferences...
Price is where the rubber meets the road.

Higher quality always costs more.
I think quality applies to things that have measurable characteristics.

With something like art, you may not like an $80 million Jackson Pollock because to you it's just paint dribbles.
I think someone arguing that price does not necessarily equate to quality in such art has a legitimate argument.

Brown bananas are normally percieved by the store's produce manager as too low in quality to put out for sale.
Then again some people may actually seek brown overripe bananas because they are making banana bread.

There is high quality ice cream made with only pure milk, cream, sugar, eggs and vanilla, instead of unpronounceable chemical gunk.
But you could not say Chocolate is a higher quality flavor than strawberry.
That's opinion.

Diamond quality is not subjective.
The 4 Cs are measurable.
They directly affect price, so to me describing a diamond with higher specs and price as higher in quality is reasonable.

That said, you may ...

1. Tolerate a brownish S-T I2, because it gets you a 2-ct diamond for your budget, and try to convince others and even yourself that you prefer S-T I2, when actually you would have bought higher color and clarity 2-ct if you had the budget.

2. Sincerely, actually, honestly prefer a 2 ct brownish S-T I2 because your preferences for clarity and color are not like those of the majority, and it fit perfectly into your budget.

3. Actually prefer a 2 ct brownish S-T I2, even though you are a billionaire and could afford huge D IFs.
This is possible.

Personally, I compromised and settled for a 2.26 ct F VVS2 because I couldn't afford a 2.26 ct D IF.
I didn't want a 1.2 ct, or so, D IF for the same price.
My diamond is of lower quality than a D IF.
No problem.
We all get the quality we pay for, no need to get all sensitive over it; it doesn't mean anything and is no reflection on you personally.

 

[kenny]

Prices are set by generalizations.

There are generalizations and there are exceptions.
Exceptions do not vanish their generalizations.

Generalizations are still generally true.
And exceptions certainly do not change the price - because again prices are set by generalizations.

This all has nothing to do with what you prefer and respecting that.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Kenny- given that this is a forum about diamonds, and I'm discussing specific points, there's no need to generalize whatsoever. In fact, specifics are neccesary to properly discuss these aspects.
With regards to pricing there can be nothing more specific than diamond grades.
The difference between a VVS1 and VVS2 is so very subtle in nature, yet the prices are specifically different.
IN this regard generalizations have no place whatsoever.

 

[oldminer]

The grading system related to diamonds is a human construct to help explain and market diamonds. Mined diamonds have many differing features including inherent color and clarity characteristics. Every one of them is natural and there truly is no difference among diamonds. All of them come to us at the same cost of mining them out of the ground or in streams.

In order to make a business out of diamonds our human nature leads us to categorize them and to create what amounts to fictional quality grades which suite our purposes. The system works well and has given us a reasonably stable platform for marketing. It is all too easy to forget that the characteristics you may prefer might well be different than what someone else may prefer. You will not be able to buy a D-IF for the same cost as an H-SI2, but in terms of nature all diamonds are of equal natural value. Humans have made this interpretation which controls the market values, but you pick what you prefer. Even when we tell you about the "best" cutting of "Ideal", or "Excellent" this is a marketing creating opinion. You still have the right to decide to go with any cut you prefer and possibly you will even save some money getting exactly what suits your own taste.

Just like people, diamonds come in a wide variety of color types. Just like people, not all diamonds are perfect in shape, or flawless internally. Not all diamonds are the same size. However, just like people all mined gem quality diamonds are 100% diamonds and entitled to become the stone you might want to buy. The grading structure is somewhat like a pre-existing prejudice about what is 'best". This is a valid concept according to what humans tend to do to understand our world, but it has no deeper, intrinsic meaning in the plans of the universe. Just like prejudice against "other " kinds of people, we have to learn that no race is the "special" one.

Top brown diamonds are in the K-M range, as has been stated already and most do look less colored than similarly yellow tinted diamonds. The price dictated by the market is secondary to your preference as to what you like for yourself. If you march in step with the general public, you'll follow the categories set up to help explain diamonds and consider these as lower quality than some other diamonds, but if you hear what I am attempting to tell you, you may be able to have a better handle on how the market seeks to place arbitrary grades on things that should not mean so much as they first appear to mean,

 

[yssie]

OldMiner - that is a thought-provoking post, thank you for sharing that. If I can share a short story: I have a mid-J (yellow, alas there were no nice browns to be found, though I looked!). I set it in a creamy coloured metal instead of an icy white metal. Last year I went to a large jewellery store in B'more and tried on a plat. three-stone ring with a 3ct F centre and E sides.. And I found I honestly, truly preferred my own ring - I *like* the tint in combination with the yellowy metal on my finger, despite it being much, much less-valuable.!

I know that I would choose a "top top light brown" H/I/J/K over an otherwise identical 'yellowy' stone if I wanted the look of a more colourless stone.. and set it in pink gold

 

[yssie]

Yssie- I do remember a stone of F color that had brown noted on the GIA report

cool! That answers that, then

 

[RSargent]

My 23 year old engagement ring was pitied by the jeweler who set it as a large table top light brown. It weights 1.10 carats and has amazing clarity and no carbon. It's now set with two natural Colombian emeralds at .25 each but I can picture it flanked by two pads or Morganites . love light brown and pink together!