Is this feasible? (Blue sapphire question)

[ddgdl]

Long time lurker, but I rarely post. I have enjoyed reading and learning so much from these forums over the past year.

Now, however, it is my turn to start the engagement ring designing process. After doing some extensive shopping with my girlfriend, I have a pretty good idea of what she likes, but now the hard part is finding a stone that fits the bill for under $8k.

What I am looking for is a medium blue, precision cut in a roughly rectangular shape (with similar dimensions to a traditional radiant, cushion, or emerald cut). Because to some degree, the cut would dictate the weight of the stone, I am looking for something under 7.2mm long by somewhere between 5 and 6mm wide, whatever carat weight that would be.

Before I got into searching for a sapphire, I was researching diamonds, so to put it in terms I am more familiar with, I am looking for an AGS 000 sapphire. That is, a flawless (or near flawless) stone of the highest polish and with the best cut possible. I would prefer a stone that wasn't heat treated, but if I have to give in on anything, heat treatment will be the first condition to go by the wayside.

I've been in touch with many, many precision cutters and gem dealers (hi jeff, gene, dan, ed, jerry, lisa, john, barry, and rick!) who have all been wonderful to deal with, but no one has a sapphire (or even rough) that has everything that I'm looking for.

I know Tucson is coming up, and a number of the people I have been in touch with have offered to look for sapphires for me that meet the bill, but I wanted to ask the PSers who are so knowledgeable and from whom I have learned so much: Am I crazy for trying to find all of these things in one stone, given the market for sapphires right now? Does such a stone even exist at my price range? And do you have any suggestions for things to look for to make the search a little more manageable?

Thankfully, I have until May to find a stone. But even that might not be enough time

 

[Autumn in New England]

Hi - I will definitely leave your (excellent) questions for the pro PSers... but I wanted to say congratulations on your engagement! Your girl is very lucky to have a partner who's trying so hard to make her happy.

~Autumn

 

[T L]

Sapphires (well, corundum in general) is one of the most difficult stones to shop for considering the myriad of treatments on them these days including coating, diffusion, irradiation, fillers, and just regular heating, and then to add to that, you have requirements that are so precise, it may be quite difficult to find exactly what you want in the time frame allotted. Also, sapphires are so popular right now due to the Kate/Diana ring, anything and everything is up for grabs and pricey right now.

Colored stones are not like diamonds, you can't just "get one to order" that easily, so I would try to expand your horizons a bit or you may end up losing out on some really beautiful gems. It's still possible to get a beautiful precision cut sapphire, but I wouldn't rule out other shapes and sizes.

 

[VapidLapid]

1.34 carats, 5.4 x 7.2 unheated

http://www.steveperrygems.com/gems/ceylon.htm

 

[T L]

1.34 carats, 5.4 x 7.2 unheated

http://www.steveperrygems.com/gems/ceylon.htm

Not sure if they're selling anymore.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/steve-perry-gems-still-in-business.162730/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/steve-perry-gems-still-in-business.162730/[/URL]

 

[VapidLapid]

1.34 carats, 5.4 x 7.2 unheated

http://www.steveperrygems.com/gems/ceylon.htm

Not sure if they're selling anymore.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/steve-perry-gems-still-in-business.162730/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/steve-perry-gems-still-in-business.162730/[/URL]

Oh, Thanks for the update. Wonder why they keep their site active? Well it can't hurt trying to get in touch with them.
Gee, if they are not selling then perhaps they ought not be included in the new respected cs vendor thread.

 

[ddgdl]

Thanks for the replies thus far- I'll try steve perry, but as per the linked thread, I won't get my hopes up.

TL - what would you suggest I be more flexible about? Regarding sizes and shapes, the sizes I gave were just a rough estimate to give an idea of the boxy/rectangular shape I know the girlfriend likes. She does not like round stones nearly as much as she does like the rectangular stones, otherwise I would go straight to the Jua Round cut that Gene does. The rough dimensions I gave were also because her fingers are very small, (size 4.75) but long (piano player), and she doesn't like stones that cover the whole width of her finger. Are there other things I should consider that would broaden my options?

One thing I could do, that I know my girlfriend likes, is open it up to yellow sapphires as well as blue. Personally, I'm not a big fan of yellow (and she doesn't like yellow-orange or especially intense yellows, but prefers light or pale yellows), so I'm holding off on going down that route until April 1 rolls around and I still haven't found anything.

 

[ddgdl]

Also, to be more specific on the color, based on the chart at the bottom of this page: http://www.gemnation.com/base?processor=getPage&pageName=sapphire_color,, I'm looking for a strong to vivid medium to dark (closer to medium than dark, but to keep it broad I'll go with either).

 

[movie zombie]

there is always something that has to give....and to keep to your budget i'd sacrifice size over any other attribute.

congrats on your engagement and for finding out what she'd like before making a purchase.

another way to approach this is to let her decide if she prefers color to shape....i know she's specified a cut but if push came to shove what would she sacrifice?

 

[ddgdl]

Well, she thinks she has given me plenty of options because she also likes yellows If I am going to be honest with myself, she is not as picky about color as she is about cut.

 

[movie zombie]

as i stated, i'd sacrifice size to keep cut AND color......you did say she has a small finger, right?

have you looked into montana sapphires? much lighter but you might find one that would please her and you.

having a shopper at tucson is a really good idea....even for rough that would be cut to your specifications. you're in good hands with the people you've already contacted.

 

[ddgdl]

Oh yes, size could absolutely be sacrificed.

Ed has suggested trying to get this recut by a precision cutter: http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/11374

Thoughts?

 

[chrono]

Are you still going for a flawless or near flawless sapphire? If so, please drop this requirement as it is almost unrealistic when it comes to coloured gemstones. Colour is the top most criteria in this category and eye clean is what everyone aims for.

It is certainly possibly to recut that oval but there are a few considerations:
1. You will definitely drop under the 2 carat mark, further "devaluing" the sapphire. There are price point jumps or increases at certain carat weights and this one will just at one of them, at the moment.
2. Without being able to examine the stone in person, I'm only helping make you aware that cutting may affect the following -
a. Colour zoning may become more apparent or remain unchanged.
b. Inclusions may affect final size or not be a factor.
c. The depth of colour will most likely be affected, becoming slightly lighter and less saturated, since you are losing some of the original size.

Only a lapidary who is able to study the stone in hand will be able to advise you with more accuracy. The risk of any damage to the stone or end result (both good and bad, which I alluded to above) is yours to bear.

 

[T L]

Oh yes, size could absolutely be sacrificed.

Ed has suggested trying to get this recut by a precision cutter: http://wildfishgems.com/inc/sdetail/10880/11374

Thoughts?

To me, it's a major waste of money to recut an expensive stone. I would try to get one with the dimensions you want, unless you have money to burn. You may also lose saturation as well.

 

[ddgdl]

Thanks for the advice- I'm completely unfamiliar with the process of recutting an existing stone, so your advice and guidance is very much appreciated!

 

[ddgdl]

Also, I am happy to drop the flawless requirement to just eye-clean for color's sake. Even dropping down to that though, it is hard to find stones that come close to all of the other things I'm looking for. Hopefully something comes up in Tucson.

 

[T L]

Here's a reputable seller with a huge selection of unheated sapphires, and many come with reputable lab reports, including AGL (my favorite lab by far for corundum).

http://www.africagems.com/reg-unheatedbluesapphire-100.html

 

[T L]

Also, I am happy to drop the flawless requirement to just eye-clean for color's sake. Even dropping down to that though, it is hard to find stones that come close to all of the other things I'm looking for. Hopefully something comes up in Tucson.

I wouldn't buy anything in Tuscon without an accompanying lab report from one of the major gem labs like AGL, GIA, AGTA, Gueblin, SSEF, or GRS. Check out the site I showed you in the above link. He's a very reputable seller, who is very straightforward with any questions you may have. His father is also a fabulous jewelry designer who appears at many of the shows.

 

[ddgdl]

Thanks for the link TL.

Some of the stones there come close to what I'm looking for. For example, http://www.africagems.com/sapphire-blue-ja326.html has the cut, but it is slightly too big and is a little above my price range. Same with http://www.africagems.com/sapphire-blue-ja322.html..

This one is within the cut, size, and price range, but is too purple for my taste: http://www.africagems.com/blue-sapphire-g2000-1096.html

Thoughts?

 

[T L]

Thanks for the link TL.

Some of the stones there come close to what I'm looking for. For example, http://www.africagems.com/sapphire-blue-ja326.html has the cut, but it is slightly too big and is a little above my price range. Same with http://www.africagems.com/sapphire-blue-ja322.html.....

This one is within the cut, size, and price range, but is too purple for my taste: http://www.africagems.com/blue-sapphire-g2000-1096.html

Thoughts?

I like the third one best, but I love a little violet in blue sapphires, and that may not be your thing. The first one is cut well, but a little too grey for me for the price point, although still quite lovely. The second one isn't cut well. I really like the third one the best, but JMO. I also think it's the best buy out of the three.

Ask him if he has anything in stock that would meet your requirements, and include your budget as well. He might not have all his inventory listed online.

 

[movie zombie]

i'm not a fan of recuts. why? loss of material for one....but most importantly there are no guarantees that the stone will look better after than before. why? that loss of material can mean too shallow a stone which will mean loss of color.

buy the stone you want to set. recuts are a gamble and if its an expensive stone, well, its too big a gamble.

 

[pregcurious]

Only a lapidary who is able to study the stone in hand will be able to advise you with more accuracy. The risk of any damage to the stone or end result (both good and bad, which I alluded to above) is yours to bear.

I completely agree with this. For your situation, I don't think recutting an expensive stone is the right way to go. How will you insure it when it's loose, and during the recut? (I only know of 1 vendor that will insure diamonds during recuts for a fee.) What will you do if you don't like it after the recut--you'll be stuck with it.

I think you can get this done by May. I would give more time for the right stone to come by.

 

[LD]

I haven't read all your thread but wanted to chime in ........

you've asked what you could perhaps compromise on because of your very specific wish list? My answer would be clarity and maybe cut. Some of the most beautiful sapphires I've seen have not been flawless. The difference between a flawless gem and one that has inclusions that can only be seen with a loupe or superb vision is not something that the average lay person would notice. I understand you want a precision cut but then again, some of the most beautiful gems are well cut gems but not necessarily precision cut.

You need to throw away your knowledge of diamonds and apply a different set of rules for coloured gemstones.

So if I were you, I'd look for colour first (that's what makes a gem stand out from the rest both in terms of the look and also your love for it), then size/shape and finally cut/clarity.

Here's an example of how you could perhaps look at other options ........ ignore that it's a ring but the stone is a cushion with a gorgeous colour but larger than you want. It also has an AGL report and is unheated. It's not precision cut BUT it looks great in the ring and who would know it wasn't precision cut unless you were a gem/cut junkie?

http://www.simplysapphires.com/html/imagestanzanite2005/419spr-sm.html

 

[LD]

Here's another ............

http://www.simplysapphires.com/html/imagesblue2006/bluecns670b-sm.html

It meets your size criteria but it's not a precision cut and once set this will probably look darker (probably a bit too dark for most tastes). Personally I wouldn't go for this one but it's an option for the size (but only the size).

http://www.simplysapphires.com/html/imagesblue2005/bluecns164-sm.html

Meets your size criteria also but not precision cut.

 

[Michael_E]

This one is within the cut, size, and price range, but is too purple for my taste: http://www.africagems.com/blue-sapphire-g2000-1096.html

Thoughts?

The only purple I see in that stone is an illusion caused by background reflections off of the crown facets. you seem to be trying to judge color and other properties from pictures and this is nearly impossible to do adequately. The main reason being that I can change the color in that image, (and remove inclusions, etc.), with a slight flick of my Photoshop wand.

As for your requirements, they are easily met since your budget, (and required dimensions), would allow an appropriate stone to be found, obtain your approval and then re-cut it. The downside is that you need to be willing to take all of the risk associated in this venture. I don't know anyone, (as a cutter), who would be crazy enough to re-cut anything without your covering all of the costs for it up front. By "risk" I don't mean that something might happen to the stone, but that some feature of the end result, would not meet with your approval and so the cutter would end up holding the bag for an expensive stone which has lost value by having it's weight reduced and it's face up size trimmed.
People always want to see what they're getting before they pay for it, which is fine, but when you're attempting to change the look of a piece via a re-cut, (or even cutting from rough, if the shape you want would cause undue loss during cutting), you really can't be asking the cutter to carry that risk. I'd say that all of the regular posters here understand this, but people who have not been involved as long, (lurkers and new members), often give me the impression that they interested in being entertained or are looking for something that is very hard to find, but are unwilling to foot the bill to have what they want done, at the very real risk of not getting their expectations fully met. This is understandable, BUT, if you have strong requirements without also being willing to accept the risks, then they will often politely remove themselves from being an option. Your best bet may be that one of the cutters you've talked to will find something that is a close fit in Tucson and so have a reduced risk of losing anything if the end result isn't acceptable to you.

As a side note, finding rough which is suitable and worth cutting into a rectangular shape, in just the right size, is very close to impossible and could take many years of searching, if ever, should you insist on something being cut from rough. Best of luck, I'm looking forward to the pictures of what pops up for you in the coming weeks!

 

[empress]

Gemfix has a 2.24c VVS Sri Lanka stone that measures 7.7x6.2mm.

 

[ddgdl]

Phew! Lots of advice! Keep it coming- I thought I had done a decent amount of research on here before this thread, but with every post I learn a little more.

TL - I agree that the third one is the best, and re: Michael E's point, I know that I am trying to judge color based on a photo, which will never work out well. I contacted Marc to see if he had anything else that might work, and he is looking around for me.

Michael E - I understand your point about new posters wanting to avoid having to take the risk themselves on re-cuts. I thought though, as you noted, that the risk might be reduced somewhat with the Tucson show coming up. My thinking is this- if a number of precision cutters are going to Tucson to re-stock with rough (or other existing cuts they want to re-cut and sell), and they happen to restock with some sapphires, I hope that I could have first "dibs" on the finished product if any of the sapphires worked for me before they put it up for sale, without having to commit to pay them no matter what they produced.

I would not expect, as you note, that the business model would allow me to put in a custom order for a stone, then walk away risk-free if I didn't like the result. That would be unfair. But I would expect that if the precision cutter was stocking up on rough stones anyways, and happened to purchase a sapphire that would work for my needs, that I (like any other purchaser) could buy that stone from him or her. By contacting the cutter in advance and letting them know what I am interested in, that lets the cutter perhaps keep an eye out for a specific type of stone they would have been purchasing already, but then allows me to have first dibs on it when it gets cut.

I will note that some cutters have said they would look out for a stone for me and let me know if something meets my needs that they could scoop up (that is, the second option above). Others, however, have my phone number to call me and put the risk entirely on me if they find something that looks good to them that I might like (the first option).

I also did not mean to imply that I only wanted something cut straight from rough- one thing I am not as educated about is how the precision cutting business model works. Do cutters buy rough stock then cut a bunch of gems and put them online for sale? Do they just do work on a request-by-request basis? I'm sure there is some mix of the two, as each cutter follows a different business model.

empress - I think I want to go smaller than that. The ideal size is under 7mm long and approximately 5mm wide. Part of the concern with going with the 2+ct stones is that they can be somewhat deep in the dimensions I'm looking at. Besides the effect that can have on color, the depth itself is a problem, because my girlfriend wants a low profile setting where she doesn't feel like she can snag the stone on things. Yet another concern to throw onto the pile!

 

[PrecisionGem]

I think what Michael E is touching on is this. You have asked a number of cutters who are going to Tucson to spend some time, which could easily amount to a few days searching for a very specific stone to meet your requirements. And then to purchase the stone which will cost thousands of dollars, and re-cut it. What if say 3 or 4 lapidaries are successful at this? I'm assuming you will only purchase one stone.

Jewelers will do something similar all the time by having stones brought in on "memo". However these are stones that are normally already cut and in inventory, and are being shown to a potential customer to pick from. The selected stone is purchased, and the rest returned. At times the jeweler may even buy the stones not selected for his or her inventory.

There will be NO blue sapphire rough in Tucson available that would interest you, so this only means buying a cut stone and re-cutting it.

 

[ddgdl]

Well that is good to know Gene- I didn't know that sapphire rough was not offered in Tucson. I thought it was a show where people primarily purchased rough, based on the photos you have on your website of Tucson 2010, and only recently have learned of the export-ban from Asia and the difficulties people are having with sourcing quality rough generally.

If it is indeed a show where only cut sapphires will be shown, then I should just wait to see what people pick up on their own, so that I don't cause any of the problems that you highlighted with multiple precision cutters purchasing the same type of stone for the same customer. I will e-mail those people I have contacted and explain my confusion- I would not want to be unfair to them. Thank you for clarifying this for me, and mea culpa for wasting people's time without fully understanding what the Tuscon show was about. Thanks for saving me from some embarrassment!

 

[PrecisionGem]

High quality blue sapphire rough will never be offered for sale in the US. It's almost always cut right near the source.

Tucson does provide opportunities for other kinds of rough stones however, but not sapphire or ruby in top gem quality. Next to diamonds, sapphire ruby and emerald are the more easy sells in the US for most jewelers. Many normal (not Pricescope) consumers have pretty much only heard of diamonds, sapphire, ruby and emerald. The best way for a cutter to cut any of these is to re-cut poorly cut stones.