Had my e-ring appraised from GOG, should I be disappointed?

[trevor9606]

Just had the e-ring from GOG appraised this afternoon by an independent appraiser here on long island...When all was said and done the appraisal value was $620 more than what I paid. I guess I was hoping to see it a little higher. Not terrible but not as if I got an amazing deal.


But here is what is bothering me, I paid via bank wire on GOG and also had it shipped out of state to save on sales tax, so in reality I saved myself almost $1100 bc of avaiding sales tax and the bank wire discount. But if those options weren''t available to me the appraisal would have been almost $500 less than what I paid for the stone. Should I have mentioned to the appraiser that I saved that money?

Also I know from reading on here at pricescope that the appraisals from the jeweler that it was bought from will be drastically inflated, and the appraisal from GOG was about $4900 more than the price i paid, after seeing that I was expecting the independent appraiser to be much lower than that but not as low as what he quoted me today.

What do you all think? Should I get another appraisal? I found the appraiser here on pricescope under independent appraisers, and a friend of my fiancee also had her ring appraised there.

I guess i''m just a little bummed b/c I didn''t get as good a deal as I thought...opinions??

 

[trevor9606]

Basically, I expected the appraisal price to be at least equal to what I would have paid if I walked into GOG and paid the regular price (before the bank wire discount) and sales tax added in, to reflect what I saved.

Was i wrong to assume this?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

You got a good deal on a top quality stone. Be extremely glad you can insure the ring for a realistic amount instead of an inflated amount!!! It sounds to me like you had a very good appraiser. There is nothing to be happy about if you get an unrealistically high appraisal. If you lost the ring tomorrow, you could still replace it for what you bought it for. So that is the true value and this appraisal gives you just a little cushion for inflation for the next year or two.

I don't think an appraisal is supposed to factor in tax. But one of the professional appraisers on the board hopefully will address that.

 

[trevor9606]

I am glad it wasn''t overly inflated, and I love the ring and have nothing but good things to say about GOG, but the appraisal value was barely more than the pre-bankwire discounted price...

also, after he had wrote down his apprasial price, he asked me where it was purchased so he could guess how much I paid for the stone based on where I bought it. Since he had already wrote his appraisal (i hadn''t seen it yet), i thought it would be interesting to see what price he came up with, I guess he has info on all the local jewelers and their prices...well the number he came up for my stone was about $600 less than what I paid for it. So that made me wonder if I didn''t get as good a deal as I thought as well.

 

[RLG]

Yah maybe one of my other posts will be helpful to someone! I recently asked a similar question. Several of the appraisers on here gave really well explained answers so I hope it will help. https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/questions-for-the-appraisers.82508/

 

[denverappraiser]

Talk to your appraiser about.

Assuming the issue is funding for insurance replacement, this replacement will include the need for the company to pay sales tax, at least in most states. Some appraisals will include tax and some won’t because this varies so much with your location, which can change easily and isn’t a gemological property, but how they handled this should be in the report. Assuming it''s an insurance replacement type assignment, this would suggest that they think the replacement in the defined marketplace can be done for less than your purchase price. Really? What market did they use?

As I’m sure you know, GOG tends to be a pretty price competitive outfit and the appraiser may simply have done faulty research. Everybody makes mistakes. Alternatively, they may be disagreeing about the description and what they think can be replaced for less is actually something different entirely. Either way, the solution is to call them up and talk to them. They should be able to explain their conclusions to you and how they arrived them. If it’s in error they should be happy to make any necessary corrections.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[arjunajane]

TY RLG for linking to that thread - I was just about to look for the same one.

This topic has been discussed at lenth recently, and its a bit concering that consumers are unwittingly "aiming" or hoping for over inflated appraisals. As Neil and others have explained very well, this is not necessarily a well served aim.

I was thinking is it possible to have one of these thread put in the Helpful threads archive or FAQ by PS admin? I think the appraisal and insurance are very pertinent topics that many peoples'' knowledge falls down on, and it would help to have a really good explanation by the experts such as Neil etc that we can refer all enquiries to..I like RLG''s one personally and think it has some good info, but I''m sure others know of more..

Anybody know how we ask Andrey to do this, or do you think its a ok idea?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/12/2008 10:50:34 AM
Author: arjunajane

Anybody know how we ask Andrey to do this, or do you think its a ok idea?

I think its a great idea.
The msg admin button or the report post button can be used too contact Andrey and Ali.
I sent them a message too check in here.

 

[jewelrychic1]

I think this is a weird situation. When I purchase my jewelry I get a statement of replacement. I know its not an appraisal, but its something I can turn into my insurance company to Replace it. An appraisal is what it''s worth at that exact time.

I''m not sure how jewelers work that out. I''ve never had a problem or felt I needed an appraisal.

But don''t feel bad. I still think it was a good price if the appraisal came in rather close.

 

[denverappraiser]

A ‘statement of replacement’ actually relates to a particular date as well but lots of jewelers title these documents ‘appraisal’ and it’s surprisingly common to omit even such fundamental details as the date of valuation. Auction houses often title pre-sale estimates as appraisals; secondhand dealers will call offers to buy appraisals etc. Insurance companies will accept almost anything and the higher the value the more they like it. The key to deciding if you need one is to consider your purpose.

With new purchases, if you fully trust that the jeweler has told you the complete and accurate story during the sales presentation and has provided documentation to back it up so that your insurance company can make an accurate replacement for an appropriate budget then I agree that you have little need for an independent appraisal. Unfortunately, one or more of these elements is often missing and for those situations or for other situations like an inheritance or for items that you’ve owned for a while and the value may have changed over time, an independent appraisal can be very useful.

If the ‘appraisal’ you have reports something that you know or suspect to be false, like a value conclusion that is considerably higher or lower than you expected, read the fine print and figure out WHY it’s so different. It may be in the description, it may be in the marketplace, it may be that the appraiser is on drugs, but you have to read beyond the value conclusion to decide useful information or just noise. If the ‘appraiser’ just sold it to you and the transaction price was significantly different from the conclusion without explanation beyond that you got a good deal, this is a bad sign, not a good one.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[psadmin]

I added the the 2 threads to the helpful thread sticky.

I just noticed it was closed. It is open again.

Everyone is welcome to add to it.

Thank you for the suggestions.


Andrey
PS Admin

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 4/12/2008 11:55:38 PM
Author: PS Admin
I added the the 2 threads to the helpful thread sticky.

I just noticed it was closed. It is open again.

Everyone is welcome to add to it.

Thank you for the suggestions.


Andrey
PS Admin

Good stuff. Thanks Andrey and Strm for reporting it!

 

[trevor9606]

Thank you denverappraiser, I am going to call the appraiser this week and discuss with him in more detail how he came to his decision.

 

[pmptrading]

Please tell us the specs....

What did yo pay and what are the specs......

Compare the price to similar pricescope dealers.... that is the true worth.....

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I have an excellent solution for you that will make everyone happy.

1. pay GOG the same amount again, but get them to back date the invoice and write on it "deposit".
2. Take both reciepts to the appraiser and point out the error of his ways.
3. pay 2 x higher insurance
4. feel good

 

[Splinter]

Date: 4/14/2008 7:34:49 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
I have an excellent solution for you that will make everyone happy.


1. pay GOG the same amount again, but get them to back date the invoice and write on it ''deposit''.

2. Take both reciepts to the appraiser and point out the error of his ways.

3. pay 2 x higher insurance

4. feel good

You forgot Step 5. PROFIT!

 

[gemgirl]

Date: 4/11/2008 11:19:44 PM
Author:trevor9606
Just had the e-ring from GOG appraised this afternoon by an independent appraiser here on long island...When all was said and done the appraisal value was $620 more than what I paid. I guess I was hoping to see it a little higher. Not terrible but not as if I got an amazing deal.


But here is what is bothering me, I paid via bank wire on GOG and also had it shipped out of state to save on sales tax, so in reality I saved myself almost $1100 bc of avaiding sales tax and the bank wire discount. But if those options weren''t available to me the appraisal would have been almost $500 less than what I paid for the stone. Should I have mentioned to the appraiser that I saved that money?

Also I know from reading on here at pricescope that the appraisals from the jeweler that it was bought from will be drastically inflated, and the appraisal from GOG was about $4900 more than the price i paid, after seeing that I was expecting the independent appraiser to be much lower than that but not as low as what he quoted me today.

What do you all think? Should I get another appraisal? I found the appraiser here on pricescope under independent appraisers, and a friend of my fiancee also had her ring appraised there.

I guess i''m just a little bummed b/c I didn''t get as good a deal as I thought...opinions??

trevor, I felt so bad for you reading your post because I know we all want to know that we got the best deal possible. I''m not going to ask you who did your appraisal, I don''t think that would be fair; but if you go to our resource list under "independent appraisers" and look for the person in Garden City, that is the man that I trust to appraise all of my best pieces.
He''s the only Master Gemologist Appraiser we have in New York state (and I checked to see if that were still the case when I saw him today and it is). He''s "as good as it gets". I''ve been using him for nine years. In my book, his word is the last word.
No one else is as highly credentialed as he is.

 

[trevor9606]

Gary, i don''t quite understand your response, i feel as if you are attacking me b/c i am trying to figure out if I got the right appraisal...i''m not looking for an inflated appraisal, all I was saying is that i would have expected the appraisal to be equal to the price GOG had listed plus the sales tax. I paid less than that b/c i did a bank wire transaction and had it shipped out of state ( no sales tax), so yes i know i got a good deal, but I expected the appraisal to be equal to the price had I walked in GOG and bought the ring in the store without any of those discounts.

Was I wrong to expect this? That is my main question...



gemgirl....great minds think alike

 

[strmrdr]

Diamond pricing right now is weird in relation too RAP prices.
The appraiser may have fallen into the rap trap.
A lot of well cut stones in certain categories are trading at rap wholesale because of overseas demand.
Normally they would be selling for rap minus a percentage, for example 5 back 10 back or more.
Get the amount back of rap wrong and the appraised price is wrong.

I''m not saying that that is what happened but it is what could have happened.

 

[denverappraiser]

Trevor,

The whole independent appraisal process is a bit of a delicate topic in the jewelry industry and it leads to some conflicts between the jewelers and appraisers. From a jewelers standpoint, there’s almost nothing to be gained by having a customer seek out an independent and there’s a definite risk. If the appraiser pooh pooh’s something it can spike the deal even if the appraiser is flat out wrong. The task of consumers (or jewelers) using an appraisal to recognize or confirm a ‘good deal’ is often the heart of the problem.

Here’s the appraisal process in a nutshell:
1) Determine the nature of the assignment. Documentation for insurance is not the same as what is required for estate taxes, which is not the same as what’s needed for resale etc. An appraiser must first understand the question being asked if they are going to provide a useful answer.

2) Identify and evaluate the item(s). This includes grading the various stones, testing the metals, evaluating craftsmanship, determining manufacturer, date, ownership history and whatever else is going to be important in making a value conclusion for that particular item.

3) Identify the market, date and definition of value to be used. Usually for new purchases of jewelry this will be some hypothetical local retail store on today’s date but there are frequent exceptions and this changes for other situations.

4) Research the market as it applies to the item in question.

5) Write a report about it.

Consumers tend to look at appraisal reports, even 10 page documents like mine, and see nothing but the bottom line or maybe the pretty pictures. Everything else is seen as fluff unless they don’t like the number at the bottom or until it’s time for their insurer to come up with a replacement.

Frankly, yours sounds like a small issue. Based on your sales tax figure, I’m guessing we’re talking about a $15-$20k transaction price and this means that the appraised value differs from the sales price by something like 3%. That’s actually pretty close if the job was to estimate what the US online cost today would be. I think it’s highly likely that difference is in the research but it may be in the product. The difference between these two is important. H&A, for example, often results in a premium of several percent, as does grading from particular labs. Do a search in the database here for offers of diamonds with your specs and you’ll probably find a few hundred that are superficially similar that will range in price by 20-30%. Yours probably won’t be the cheapest. The difference will have to do with things like cutting, grading accuracy, branding of the lab and store, additional perks like tradein policies etc. That’s why the appraisers approach is so important. As Storm points out, Rap doesn’t include any of this. All stones for a particular shape/weight/color/clarity will produce the same result despite the fact that this is obviously not reflected in the market reality, as evidenced by the test you just did. Why the cheapest one is less expensive than the top one and how yours compares on those attributes is critical information if you’re going to use either one as an example of a comparable offer. Appraising is not a psychic power, it’s just work.

By the time the majority of PSers get to me or any other appraiser, they’ve usually researched the hell out of their stone way before they chose the one they chose. They already know the price, at least in this particular market and the research is really pretty easy. If that’s what you’re asking, and if your research produced different results from your appraiser’s, don’t be shy about asking for details and explaining how your research led to a different conclusion. They may not end up agreeing with you, but the job of an appraiser is to help you to understand what they’ve done, not just provide a number. That’s what those other 9.5 pages are for, and if that’s not enough, there’s always the telephone.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[trevor9606]

Neil thank you once again for your response...I called the appraiser and will speak with him tomorrow when I am off work and he is avaialble

I am wondering if it warrants mentioning to him that while I did purchase at GOG, technically I purchased it over the Internet which is a different market and could affect the appraisal, (I think this was a issue that came up in another thread that I saw).

Here are the numbers

The stone was listed at GOG was $8414.55 for the stone, the setting was $800, with tax the total is about $10,010.

I purchased the stone via bankwire for $8130 and had the e-ring shipped out of state where I proposed, total $8930.

So i actually saved almost $1100, the appraisal was for $9550.

Like I said not a huge difference but I expected it to be for about $10,000 because that is actually what I could have paid, and if i did pay that (which the appraiser did not know how I paid) the appraisal would be less.

Thats why I was wondering if sales tax was factored in, etc.

I guess I will get my answers tomorrow when I speak with the appraiser.

 

[trevor9606]

pmptrading - here are the specs, sorry i missed your response yesterday when i was scrolling through

Shape: Asscher
Carat Weight: 1.23ct
Color: E
Clarity: VS2
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Fluorescence: None
Width: 6.06mm
Length: 6.21mm
Depth: 4.00mm
Table Percentage: 58.79%
Depth Percentage: 65.95%
Crown Depth: 16.60%
Pavilion Depth: 47.17%

the setting is 14K gold with 34 round cut ideal hearts and arrows pave set stones, H color SI1 clarity total carats weight .17 carats

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 4/15/2008 10:32:45 AM
Author: trevor9606
I am wondering if it warrants mentioning to him that while I did purchase at GOG, technically I purchased it over the Internet which is a different market and could affect the appraisal, (I think this was a issue that came up in another thread that I saw).

Tell him what you paid, when and where you got it, why you chose the stone you chose and why you chose the dealer you chose. Tell him what your purpose was in seeking out the appraisal in the first place, if you are planning on using it as part of an insurance contract and, if so, what your preferences are on how and where the replacement should occur. Tell him what your concerns are about his report. Show him every scrap of paper provided to you by the dealer and if there are items that are of concern or discrepancies between that paperwork and his appraisal report, specifically point out what you’ve found and ask for an explanation. Again, he may or may not agree with you but this will pin down exactly where the two of them don't agree and it gives you something real and in writing to talk to the jeweler about, assuming there turns out to really even be a disagreement at all. If it's going to be for insurance, it results in a report that documents all of the things that you count as important about the piece and that you would like to be considered in case it ever needs to be replaced.

For the benefit of lurkers and other readers, the time to do this really is right up front, during the appraisal assignment. When you hire an appraiser, have all of this with you and be prepared to discuss it. Many clients want the grading to be done blind, which is fine, just tell them what you have and keep it under wraps until it’s time to discuss it. It’s far less trouble for the appraiser to have this conversation immediately after the inspection and, since most good appraisers charge by the hour, less trouble for them turns into less expense for you.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 4/15/2008 12:43:00 AM
Author: strmrdr
Diamond pricing right now is weird in relation too RAP prices.
The appraiser may have fallen into the rap trap.
A lot of well cut stones in certain categories are trading at rap wholesale because of overseas demand.
Normally they would be selling for rap minus a percentage, for example 5 back 10 back or more.
Get the amount back of rap wrong and the appraised price is wrong.

I'm not saying that that is what happened but it is what could have happened.

For asschers I will amend that PS demand is a large driving force in pushing well cut ones prices up and allowing the cutters too hold out for top dollar.
The good news is that the higher prices allow them too cut more and new players too get in the game so it will balance out.
But I see the fairly hefty premium staying on the best goods.
The princess pricing pressure is large for example Paul isn't cutting them for that reason which will limit how they are cut and how many and how low the premium will go.

Personally I feel well cut asschers may be one of the hardest diamonds cut too do a good appraisal on because of the lack of comps and the huge range in prices for the same color/clarity/weight based on optics and sym/polish.
Maybe one of the appraisers can weigh in if they agree or not.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 4/15/2008 1:56:28 PM
Author: strmrdr
Personaly I feel well cut asschers may be one of the hardest diamonds cuts too do a good appraisal on because of the lack of comps and the huge range in prices for the same color/clarity/weight based on optics and sym/polish.

Maybe one of the appraisers can weigh in if they agree or not.

I agree. Good photography is extremely helpful in accurately describing them. Sarins, ASETS, Idealscope et al are also very handy.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[strmrdr]

Thanks Neil I pretty much figured that was the case but not having been there done that couldnt say for 100% sure.