GIA vs EGL ?

[WagSoja]

I am new to the forum and am considering an egagement ring in the near future. The jewler I will do buissiness with(that my brother went to, and the fairest price in town) usually only has EGL certs on his diamonds. I like to say Ive done a lot of research trying to learn as much as I can, but that can only get you so far, espcecially with the terms all of you throw out there which I have no Idea about. My question is: Is GIA usually one grade better then EGL in clarity and color?
Meaning a I, SI2 stone would be a H,SI1 stone EGL? Also, if Im determing the quality of the cut when looking at the cert is it safe if I just look at the Table and Depth % to see if it is in the 53-58 abd 58-63 range. Thanks Alot for your feedback!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/21/2007 8:23:48 AM
Author:WagSoja
I am new to the forum and am considering an egagement ring in the near future. The jewler I will do buissiness with(that my brother went to, and the fairest price in town) usually only has EGL certs on his diamonds. I like to say Ive done a lot of research trying to learn as much as I can, but that can only get you so far, espcecially with the terms all of you throw out there which I have no Idea about. My question is: Is GIA usually one grade better then EGL in clarity and color?
Meaning a I, SI2 stone would be a H,SI1 stone EGL? Also, if Im determing the quality of the cut when looking at the cert is it safe if I just look at the Table and Depth % to see if it is in the 53-58 abd 58-63 range. Thanks Alot for your feedback!

Welcome

It is thought to further complicate things that various branches of EGL can differ with grading standards, EGL USA is thought to be the most accurate. If you see an EGL diamond you like, then get an independant appraisal to make sure it checks out before the sale is final.

Cut parameters vary also, the crown and pavillion angles are very important to determine light return. Best thing is to read the tutorials to learn the basics, then the Holloway Cut Advisor is helpful to give an idea of how well the proportions entered are likely to work together, also Idealscope images are useful, ASET etc. By sticking to a close range of crown and pavillion angles are likely to exclude some combos which can work well together, so use the HCA for guidance there.

 

[WagSoja]

I dont know if I feel comfortable asking for an idependent apraisal somewhere else. They are diamond cutters themselves, so If I ask I feel like I am saying "I dont trust you". As for the pavillion and crown, I will have to read up on but if it the Table and Depth fall in those ranges is that a good place to start?? Another question, sorry to be a pain, but as for the 4 C''s I want a large stone 1.5 and up. But I also dont want a large piece of crap too. My friends dad is a jewler and says I should only get VS2 clarity and up, because every diamond is an investment. However for a long time I have been under the Impression that I would get an SI2 that is near colorless (I,H) and basically as large as I could afford. Should I follow his advice or go with my thinking. Thanks again!

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 9/21/2007 8:54:14 AM
Author: WagSoja
I dont know if I feel comfortable asking for an idependent apraisal somewhere else. They are diamond cutters themselves, so If I ask I feel like I am saying 'I dont trust you'. As for the pavillion and crown, I will have to read up on but if it the Table and Depth fall in those ranges is that a good place to start?? Another question, sorry to be a pain, but as for the 4 C's I want a large stone 1.5 and up. But I also dont want a large piece of crap too. My friends dad is a jewler and says I should only get VS2 clarity and up, because every diamond is an investment. However for a long time I have been under the Impression that I would get an SI2 that is near colorless (I,H) and basically as large as I could afford. Should I follow his advice or go with my thinking. Thanks again!

It depends on your own comfort level as to which grading lab you pick. Basically GIA and AGS are the industry leaders and are said to have the highest standards of grading. These generally carry the higher price tags as few will dispute their accuracy that a diamond is indeed an X colour and Y clarity. It seems that standard advice from experts and pros in the industry recommend having an independant appraisal done on diamonds graded by other labs, for example, if you wanted a D IF, thought that was what you had and ended up with something that was actually an F VVS2? Big difference. But there are those who insist on an independant appraisal even with GIA and AGS diamonds, it again depends on your own comfort level!

Ok - some numbers you can use as guidelines, but bear in mind EGL usually uses percents for crown and pavillion angles, and these are thought to not be as accurate as angles.

depth - 60 - 62
table 54- 57%
crown angle - 34 - 34.8
pavillion angle - 40.5 - 40.8/9
girdle - thin to slightly thick, medium, slightly thin, avoid med to thick, thick, ex thick.

These numbers are a guide only and there are many combos of crown and pavillion, depth and table outside the above which will work, but trying to keep it simple.

Diamonds are a terrible investment for the average consumer, very high colour and clarities will often resale for around 50 % or less of what was paid, so buy your diamond for you and not to consider it in any way a moneymaker or good way to invest money. This is also why vendors who offer a good lifetime trade up policy are so popular.

Also a clean SI grade in the colour grades you mention would be an excellent way to get the most bang for the buck if eyeclean and the cut is good!

Hope this helps!

 

[WagSoja]

Thanks a ton! That helps a lot. As you said it, I def want the most bang for my buck. Big rock that is still quality. I will keep in mind what you said about the crown and pavillion and will probably be on here asking more and more questions as they come. This site has great information

 

[Lorelei]

Thats what we are here for - glad to help

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 9/21/2007 8:54:14 AM
Author: WagSoja
I dont know if I feel comfortable asking for an idependent apraisal somewhere else. They are diamond cutters themselves, so If I ask I feel like I am saying 'I dont trust you'.

Nice to keep things friendly, of course. Then again, you ARE here...so you may not trust them. At least not entirely, right?

Date: 9/21/2007 8:54:14 AM
Author: WagSoja
As for the pavillion and crown, I will have to read up on but if it the Table and Depth fall in those ranges is that a good place to start??

Sure, OK place to start...but better finish. Review this.

I'd just tell them to run their parameters through the HCA (also above rightr under tools) for any diamonds they'd show you. They'll make some profit, right? They're running a business. You have some requirements...as you're reviewing them here. Just include this. If they have a computer, they're OK.

According to Pricescope logic, table & depth is just passe.

Also...from what I read here...if you determine if the diamonds are from anything BUT EGL USA...like a different lab, from Europe, or heavens forbid, Israel (oy), unfortunately, I'd suggest you shop elsewhere.

(edited to add)..you can search posts from me. I've previously advocated your logic of just shopping colors and clarity conservatively to get what you want. I've come to believe there's more to the choice of lab than qualitative factors for color & clarity. Things and EGL may just not check for, that a GIA & AGS do check for.

Trust, but verify. If you think you're skilled enough, god bless.

Good wishes,

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/21/2007 8:54:14 AM
Author: WagSoja
I dont know if I feel comfortable asking for an idependent apraisal somewhere else. They are diamond cutters themselves, so If I ask I feel like I am saying ''I dont trust you''. As for the pavillion and crown, I will have to read up on but if it the Table and Depth fall in those ranges is that a good place to start?? Another question, sorry to be a pain, but as for the 4 C''s I want a large stone 1.5 and up. But I also dont want a large piece of crap too. My friends dad is a jewler and says I should only get VS2 clarity and up, because every diamond is an investment. However for a long time I have been under the Impression that I would get an SI2 that is near colorless (I,H) and basically as large as I could afford. Should I follow his advice or go with my thinking. Thanks again!

If they are reputable, honest, professional jewelers, they should have no problem with you taking it to an unbiased person to get an opinion on something worth thousands of dollars that you really know very little about.

Make sense?

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 9/21/2007 9:41:59 AM
Author: Ellen

Date: 9/21/2007 8:54:14 AM
Author: WagSoja
I dont know if I feel comfortable asking for an idependent apraisal somewhere else. They are diamond cutters themselves, so If I ask I feel like I am saying ''I dont trust you''. As for the pavillion and crown, I will have to read up on but if it the Table and Depth fall in those ranges is that a good place to start?? Another question, sorry to be a pain, but as for the 4 C''s I want a large stone 1.5 and up. But I also dont want a large piece of crap too. My friends dad is a jewler and says I should only get VS2 clarity and up, because every diamond is an investment. However for a long time I have been under the Impression that I would get an SI2 that is near colorless (I,H) and basically as large as I could afford. Should I follow his advice or go with my thinking. Thanks again!

If they are reputable, honest, professional jewelers, they should have no problem with you taking it to an unbiased person to get an opinion on something worth thousands of dollars that you really know very little about.

Make sense?

other thoughts on this....

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/21/2007 9:48:20 AM
Author: Regular Guy

Date: 9/21/2007 9:41:59 AM
Author: Ellen

If they are reputable, honest, professional jewelers, they should have no problem with you taking it to an unbiased person to get an opinion on something worth thousands of dollars that you really know very little about.

Make sense?

other thoughts on this....

The master linker strikes again.

Good one Ira, the last point sums it all up.

 

[find45di2]

I was sort of in the same situation as you with a recommended jeweler in town. The guy was big into running mines years back, and had his diamonds cut from the rough. He would then send them to get GIA certified.

Now compared to what I saw in stores, his diamonds were very impressive, but not up to par with what he would say about them. He would say, "This diamond is beautiful! EX EX EX", even though I would have the cert in my hand and see VG VG G

So my advise is that you should go around and look at a LOT of diamonds, buy a little 10X loupe, maybe even an Ideal-Scope/ASET if you have the time and learn more about what actually makes a diamond brilliant, and a worthy purchase.

You should also understand the balance of table, Crown, Pavilion angles, and everything else about it. All of these characteristics are a huge part of making a diamond beautiful, in addition to the 4 C''s.

 

[WagSoja]

That sounds about right. I took my brother to this place to get his engagement ring and his priorities were 1st) cut and then 2) clarity he also wanted a decent color but those were his first two. When he told this to the jeweler(who is a diamond cutter and part owner of the business) the jeweler said "all our diamonds are cut to Ideal proportions". Is this possible? Wouldnt he be excluding business from someone who didnt care as much about the cut? Thats what kind of got me a bit skeptical bout this guy. Even though they come Highly recommended, from my uncle, another aqauintance and the face that Insurance compaines go through them to replace diamonds on claims. ( I know this because my uncle works in insurance) So am I worrying too much?

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/21/2007 12:52:08 PM
Author: WagSoja
That sounds about right. I took my brother to this place to get his engagement ring and his priorities were 1st) cut and then 2) clarity he also wanted a decent color but those were his first two. When he told this to the jeweler(who is a diamond cutter and part owner of the business) the jeweler said 'all our diamonds are cut to Ideal proportions'. Is this possible? Wouldnt he be excluding business from someone who didnt care as much about the cut? Thats what kind of got me a bit skeptical bout this guy. Even though they come Highly recommended, from my uncle, another aqauintance and the face that Insurance compaines go through them to replace diamonds on claims. ( I know this because my uncle works in insurance) So am I worrying too much?

No.

Many say all their diamonds are ideal. They are almost always not.

I had a "master diamond cutter/jeweler/designer" mangle an heirloom ring of mine, titles can at times mean nothing.

It has been my own personal experience, along with reading countless stories on here, that hearing "He's a friend of mine/the family" usually produces a less than stellar stone. Sometimes they're downright stinkers.


find gave you some sound advice.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 9/21/2007 12:52:08 PM
Author: WagSoja
That sounds about right. I took my brother to this place to get his engagement ring and his priorities were 1st) cut and then 2) clarity he also wanted a decent color but those were his first two. When he told this to the jeweler(who is a diamond cutter and part owner of the business) the jeweler said 'all our diamonds are cut to Ideal proportions'. Is this possible? Wouldnt he be excluding business from someone who didnt care as much about the cut? Thats what kind of got me a bit skeptical bout this guy. Even though they come Highly recommended, from my uncle, another aqauintance and the face that Insurance compaines go through them to replace diamonds on claims. ( I know this because my uncle works in insurance) So am I worrying too much?

Well, the first thing I wanted to say is in regards to color and clarity. While clarity is important, there are several key elements to choosing a diamond with nice clarity. The first is if the inclusion is causing light performance problems. Some inclusions such as large wide spread clouds can cause the stone to look dull, the other is if it is causing any safety issues to the diamond, and the third is what does the inclusion look like.

so it can be summed up pretty easily, if it isn't dulling the diamond, and the diamond isn't at risk, and you can't see it then the clarity grade doesn't matter at all. After all, if you can't see it you can't see it, and if it isn't impacting the diamond it isn't impacting the diamond. Inclusions of that sort can be found from SI2(though some say I1) up to Flawless. However, the closer you get to flawless the easier it will be for you to find a diamond that meets those parameters. It may take you a long time to find one that is SI2 like that, and from some angles the inclusion will most likely be visible. Then there are more SI1's, a pretty decent number in fact, that would meet those parameters. You hit VS2 and those parameters are met the majority of the time (in Round Brilliant cuts anyway) any higher than that and you are almost guaranteed to meet those parameters.

Now, if you think your woman wants it to be "pure" on a microscopic level, well then that changes things of course, but if you think she just wants a diamond that looks beautiful I would recommend aiming for SI1 or VS2 in order to allow overall more options and keep the hunt from taking TOO long, but if some good SI2 diamonds present themselves you should take some time to investigate them further. VS1 of course makes things very simple but will def cost you size, as will VS2 though not as much. And to be sure, are found in a particular location within the stone, but color will affect the whole stone. So wherein the inclusion is invisible to the naked eye it only makes sense to improve color as those impurities that cause for color are spread throughout the WHOLE diamond.

(though really you need to go look at GIA/AGS or Tiffany Hearts on Fire or some other major lab to determine what color you feel looks white to you, in order to get the best value on color.)


And now to the real reason I wanted to post. They are probably lying to you. It doesn't bode well that they would use the term ideal, and call all of their diamonds ideal. The term "ideal" is not used on EGL reports, it is a term that is used by AGS and it is based on VERY strict standards and a very thorough analysis of each facet angle and how the light interplays between the relationship of every facet in the diamond. It is not a term that should be thrown around lightly, and it is not something that many diamonds have achieved. Thus, the odds that every diamond in his store are at the ideal level are EXTREMELY small, no doubt he knows that, and the very least you said he doesn't carry AGS which means that he doesn't have any actual ideal cuts, and the EGL cert does NOT provide enough information to determine if the cut is in fact ideal or not. Therefore, he MUST be misleading you in the very least, and I daresay may be lying to you outright.

A very simple method to get an idea will be to go to his store, pick five diamonds and ask for the certificate information. Get the percentages and angles, come back here, and I bet we will find some of those are WAY OFF ideal specifications.

Anyway, it might be worth it to continue giving them a chance, but I personally don't do business with people who intentionally mislead me, especially when they are using 2 or lower tier labs on a MAJOR (financially and emotionaly) purchase that I have no familiarity with and need honest intelligent assitance with.

so I say evaluate them critically, and at the very least they have merited the use of an independent appraiser. However, a word of caution, if you do decide you would rather work with a different business in order to ensure you maximize cut and quality then make sure you are careful in what you say to your brother. No reason to go offending him

 

[WagSoja]

Thanks for everyone''s opinons and keep posting! I am trying to get a meeting with this jeweler soon and when I look at some stones, I will be sure to write down the table, depth, crown and pavillion numbers and bring them back here for you all to comment on. Cant wait!! I might even have a vote and let you experts decide which I should get. Ha

 

[SpeedracerII]

Date: 9/21/2007 8:54:14 AM
Author: WagSoja
I dont know if I feel comfortable asking for an idependent apraisal somewhere else. They are diamond cutters themselves, so If I ask I feel like I am saying ''I dont trust you''. As for the pavillion and crown, I will have to read up on but if it the Table and Depth fall in those ranges is that a good place to start?? Another question, sorry to be a pain, but as for the 4 C''s I want a large stone 1.5 and up. But I also dont want a large piece of crap too. My friends dad is a jewler and says I should only get VS2 clarity and up, because every diamond is an investment. However for a long time I have been under the Impression that I would get an SI2 that is near colorless (I,H) and basically as large as I could afford. Should I follow his advice or go with my thinking. Thanks again!

Does this mean they cut the stone? If this is the case, and they thought the stone was worthy, they would have sent it to AGL or GIA instead of EGL. Like a famous politician once said "Trust but verify."

Get the best cut first, then trade off color and clarity and size. Cut is critical.

 

[:)]

My personal experience with EGL was it was two colors lower AND two clarities lower. As long as the price corresponds and you are happy with the stone. Look with your eyes and see what they like - you are buying the stone, not the report. Make sure you get it appraised. EGL USA tends to be more reliable than EGL elsewhere.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 9/21/2007 8:54:14 AM
Author: WagSoja
I dont know if I feel comfortable asking for an idependent apraisal somewhere else. They are diamond cutters themselves, so If I ask I feel like I am saying 'I dont trust you'.

Date: 9/21/2007 8:23:48 AM
Author:WagSoja
My question is: Is GIA usually one grade better then EGL in clarity and color?

He’s asking you to rely on the grading opinion of a lab that you believe to be inaccurate. If you want to trust the sellers grading, use his grading and ignore the report from the lab. If you don’t trust the seller you should ignore the grading from both of them and seriously consider taking your business elsewhere. Either way, the document from EGL isn’t very useful for your purpose.

In my opinion, knowing depth and table percentages tells you almost nothing about the cut of a diamond. As with the above, if you trust your grader, let them make an evaluation and ask them to explain their methodology. If you decide that their approach is reasonable and that they are applying it well, listen to their advice. If you decide that their approach is flawed and they can’t convince you otherwise, reconsider your trust.

There’s often quite a bit of money on the table in these deals and it is NOT an affront to the seller that you would seek out professional assistance in making an important decision like this. Hiring an expert who is working for you and not the seller is not unreasonable. Think of it this way. That’s what they did, and they’re using the report as a sales tool. They’re asking you to rely on their expert even though you have determined to be unreliable and yet you feel guilty about hiring your own. Why?

You should be very wary of any jeweler who seriously objects to this process or who adds unreasonable roadblocks to it. It’s appropriate that they should expect you to do it fairly quickly, it’s appropriate that they should have a hold on your payment while you show your diamond to whatever experts you choose, it’s appropriate that they should insist that you take good care of it while it’s in your care and it’s appropriate that you should be responsible for whatever fees you incur in the process but, in the end, they should tolerate it and they should offer you a 100% refund if you decide you don’t want it. If a jeweler demands that you blindly trust them or take your business elsewhere, do the later.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Ellen]

Date: 9/22/2007 8:47:30 AM
Author: denverappraiser




He’s asking you to rely on the grading opinion of a lab that you believe to be inaccurate. If you want to trust the sellers grading, use his grading and ignore the report from the lab. If you don’t trust the seller you should ignore the grading from both of them and seriously consider taking your business elsewhere. Either way, the document from EGL isn’t very useful for your purpose.

In my opinion, knowing depth and table percentages tells you almost nothing about the cut of a diamond. As with the above, if you trust your grader, let them make an evaluation and ask them to explain their methodology. If you decide that their approach is reasonable and that they are applying it well, listen to their advice. If you decide that their approach is flawed and they can’t convince you otherwise, reconsider your trust.

There’s often quite a bit of money on the table in these deals and it is NOT an affront to the seller that you would seek out professional assistance in making an important decision like this. Hiring an expert who is working for you and not the seller is not unreasonable. Think of it this way. That’s what they did, and they’re using the report as a sales tool. They’re asking you to rely on their expert even though you have determined to be unreliable and yet you feel guilty about hiring your own. Why?

You should be very wary of any jeweler who seriously objects to this process or who adds unreasonable roadblocks to it. It’s appropriate that they should expect you to do it fairly quickly, it’s appropriate that they should have a hold on your payment while you show your diamond to whatever experts you choose, it’s appropriate that they should insist that you take good care of it while it’s in your care and it’s appropriate that you should be responsible for whatever fees you incur in the process but, in the end, they should tolerate it and they should offer you a 100% refund if you decide you don’t want it. If a jeweler demands that you blindly trust them or take your business elsewhere, do the later.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Well put Neil.

Wag, this elaborates quite well on the point I made earlier.

 

[WagSoja]

Thanks everyone, I will look at several stones and get all the measuments, then come back here with them!