Antwerp or New York City
- Thread starter badabling
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The difference has to do with the shipping to wherever you are or, if you're going to go pick it up, the cost of a taxi ride from the airport. All in all the important difference between dealers isn't in their address, it's in the character of the people behind the keyboard/counter. There are excellent companies in both of those cites as well as many more about the world.
so there no price difference in either cities?? can you recommend a few dealers in each city? i find that new york dealers have more technology (eg. aset, diamxray, idealscope etc) whereas most antwerp dealers haven't even heard of these tools... is it just a marketing gimmick or do they really help. also the certs... seems to be more HRD in antwerp and GIA in new york.... is one better than the other?
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Long ago diamond dealers figured out about FedEx. The difference between Antwerp, New York, Tel Aviv, Surat and Osborne Kansas is 1-3 days and $45. The data flows at the speed of the Internet so location has amazingly little to do with it, and hasn't for over a decade.
There's something of a treaty between GIA and HRD that GIA will stay out of Europe and HRD will stay out of the US. Dealers can and do ship stones wherever they want but, in general, HRD enjoys a better market share in Europe and GIA has the dominant position in the US. GIA is on a roll right now and they are growing quickly worldwide, including in Belgium, but the affect is still there. Are they better? That depends on what you want. They have distinctly different approaches to cut grading and they seem to apply the clarity and color grades a little differently but I consider both to be credible labs (others disagree with this by the way).
The techy stuff is concentrated on Internet dealers, and those are concentrated in the US. The street level folks of 47th street don't do all that much of this either. I do find it useful, especially if you're buying sight unseen but even then I find customers like it when there's something to back up the dealers claims about cutting.
Where are you? Why have you narrowed your search to dealers in these two locations?
FWIW, 2 of the dealers Kenny listed above are in NYC and one is in Antwerp. All are well versed in the tech discussed here.
There's something of a treaty between GIA and HRD that GIA will stay out of Europe and HRD will stay out of the US. Dealers can and do ship stones wherever they want but, in general, HRD enjoys a better market share in Europe and GIA has the dominant position in the US. GIA is on a roll right now and they are growing quickly worldwide, including in Belgium, but the affect is still there. Are they better? That depends on what you want. They have distinctly different approaches to cut grading and they seem to apply the clarity and color grades a little differently but I consider both to be credible labs (others disagree with this by the way).
The techy stuff is concentrated on Internet dealers, and those are concentrated in the US. The street level folks of 47th street don't do all that much of this either. I do find it useful, especially if you're buying sight unseen but even then I find customers like it when there's something to back up the dealers claims about cutting.
Where are you? Why have you narrowed your search to dealers in these two locations?
FWIW, 2 of the dealers Kenny listed above are in NYC and one is in Antwerp. All are well versed in the tech discussed here.
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Educating yourself is everything.
That includes due-diligence about specific sellers, whether in those cities or elsewhere.
First, you should know that there's no pixie dust sprinkled over any specific area
Shoppers who presume a deal will occur because they stepped onto a certain street can wind up doing worse than they would have at home.
RE Antwerp: Tourists exit Centraal Station and see long rows of brightly lit diamond stores along Pelikanstraat & Vestingstraat. Hungry shoppers perceive this as the mother lode: Thousands of diamonds sitting in the diamond capital of the world, implying thousands of "deals." Actually, this is the tourist diamond-district. It's positioned to take advantage of the romantic notion of getting a diamond deal in Antwerp and framed accordingly. It's bright and inviting. The jewelers play their roles well. They usually have multiple reports in-store (HRD, GIA, IGI) which can be confusing - and used to blur lines. Some of these people may deliver good value for the money. But I've seen first-hand - and hear about regularly - the fleecing of tourists that occurs each day, precisely because the buyer thought "Hey, I'm in Antwerp!" and assumed a deal.
The real Antwerp diamond-district is nothing like the loud tourist area. Rijfstraat is a small protected street coming off of the rear of Vestingstraat. Walk down it and Hovenierstraat and Schupstraat follow. These three streets are the pro diamond-district. They are not loud or gaudy. They are lined with office buildings and security cameras. Businessmen and women are about, but few tourists. Hundreds of the world's prominent mining houses, sightholders, traders and manufacturers are located in these buildings, as well as offices for the DTC, HRD, IGI, Sarin, Brinks, Malca-Amit and others. This is where global trading is happening, in deals of millions or billions.
RE NYC: The 47th street area holds the same potential - and pitfalls - as the tourist DD of Antwerp. The NYC vibe is different. Dealers are experts at doing business and saving time. Negotiations and transactions can happen quickly. So quickly that one can walk away wondering what just happened. I advise to avoid dealers pushing diamonds with no reports, or reports from soft labs. GIA absolutely rules the streets in New York and the sellers are incredibly good at grasping value beyond the report. That's important to understand, because shoppers sometimes think of a diamond "deal" as a fixed-value ("If I find a 1ct G VS2 Ideal for $XXXX I'll take it!") but value goes beyond paper grades. Two diamonds with the same letter grades can have very different cost-bases for a dealer - even between diamonds graded by the same lab - and especially when different labs are introduced. Remember the sellers with cherished locations in the district didn't succeed by giving away the store. At the same time there are reputable sellers to be found.
Trading at high volume and big sums also happens in NYC. The number of rare and unique auction-worthy gems and incredible pieces being brokered is staggering. It's a famous cutting center for important diamonds too - so logically some cutting of common sizes takes place. In all of this it's possible to find dealers with access to true "deals" who may be willing to pass them on. But in my experience you don't find this by wandering around 47th street in sunglasses with a Starbucks. You'll find it through research beforehand, making connections and setting appointments.
A question: Is it possible your impression about NY dealers having ASET, etc., was developed via the Good Old Gold website and a few other PS related dealers who employ those tools? I would be surprised if a street-level dealer in NYC handed you an ideal-scope or an ASET - or discussed them at all. I'm not saying it's impossible but it would be far outside the norm. Sometimes you see H&A viewers but in my opinion they're typically used improperly...and yes, as a gimmick. 3D Cut Precision is not a gimmick, any more than ASET is a gimmick, but without training in the fundamental implications of light return (first) and precision (as a supplement) its easy for "H&A" to get categorized that way.
In terms of presence in diamond centers it's the reverse of what you described. There are tool stores in the professional Antwerp DD where ideal-scopes and H&A viewers are for sale in the windows. That doesn't mean they're in frequent use on the street - they're not. But the newest emerging markets in the world are demanding increased cut-quality accountability. More and more H&A reports are being issued in China. The HRD in Antwerp introduced a H&A report a few years ago. We cut our diamond brand in Antwerp and - while our process goes far beyond the simple views in these devices - we employ them in photos and scans to downstream retail clients. There is at least one cutting factory other than ours doing this (in Surat) and possibly others I don't know about.
This is absolutely the key. As a trade member I'm not permitted to recommend specific dealers. But there are some NY dealers with a presence here, and elsewhere on the internet, who understand far more about cut particulars - the "final frontier" of grading - than the average dealer. From time to time we have had like-minded retailers from Europe posting here, but I have not seen them in a while.
The bottom line? In my opinion, selecting a trusted professional who will deliver the best value is just as important, if not more important, than where you go to seek the diamond. I hope you'll keep us informed about the search.
That includes due-diligence about specific sellers, whether in those cities or elsewhere.
First, you should know that there's no pixie dust sprinkled over any specific area
Shoppers who presume a deal will occur because they stepped onto a certain street can wind up doing worse than they would have at home.RE Antwerp: Tourists exit Centraal Station and see long rows of brightly lit diamond stores along Pelikanstraat & Vestingstraat. Hungry shoppers perceive this as the mother lode: Thousands of diamonds sitting in the diamond capital of the world, implying thousands of "deals." Actually, this is the tourist diamond-district. It's positioned to take advantage of the romantic notion of getting a diamond deal in Antwerp and framed accordingly. It's bright and inviting. The jewelers play their roles well. They usually have multiple reports in-store (HRD, GIA, IGI) which can be confusing - and used to blur lines. Some of these people may deliver good value for the money. But I've seen first-hand - and hear about regularly - the fleecing of tourists that occurs each day, precisely because the buyer thought "Hey, I'm in Antwerp!" and assumed a deal.
The real Antwerp diamond-district is nothing like the loud tourist area. Rijfstraat is a small protected street coming off of the rear of Vestingstraat. Walk down it and Hovenierstraat and Schupstraat follow. These three streets are the pro diamond-district. They are not loud or gaudy. They are lined with office buildings and security cameras. Businessmen and women are about, but few tourists. Hundreds of the world's prominent mining houses, sightholders, traders and manufacturers are located in these buildings, as well as offices for the DTC, HRD, IGI, Sarin, Brinks, Malca-Amit and others. This is where global trading is happening, in deals of millions or billions.
RE NYC: The 47th street area holds the same potential - and pitfalls - as the tourist DD of Antwerp. The NYC vibe is different. Dealers are experts at doing business and saving time. Negotiations and transactions can happen quickly. So quickly that one can walk away wondering what just happened. I advise to avoid dealers pushing diamonds with no reports, or reports from soft labs. GIA absolutely rules the streets in New York and the sellers are incredibly good at grasping value beyond the report. That's important to understand, because shoppers sometimes think of a diamond "deal" as a fixed-value ("If I find a 1ct G VS2 Ideal for $XXXX I'll take it!") but value goes beyond paper grades. Two diamonds with the same letter grades can have very different cost-bases for a dealer - even between diamonds graded by the same lab - and especially when different labs are introduced. Remember the sellers with cherished locations in the district didn't succeed by giving away the store. At the same time there are reputable sellers to be found.
Trading at high volume and big sums also happens in NYC. The number of rare and unique auction-worthy gems and incredible pieces being brokered is staggering. It's a famous cutting center for important diamonds too - so logically some cutting of common sizes takes place. In all of this it's possible to find dealers with access to true "deals" who may be willing to pass them on. But in my experience you don't find this by wandering around 47th street in sunglasses with a Starbucks. You'll find it through research beforehand, making connections and setting appointments.
badabling|1348658999|3274821 said:
A question: Is it possible your impression about NY dealers having ASET, etc., was developed via the Good Old Gold website and a few other PS related dealers who employ those tools? I would be surprised if a street-level dealer in NYC handed you an ideal-scope or an ASET - or discussed them at all. I'm not saying it's impossible but it would be far outside the norm. Sometimes you see H&A viewers but in my opinion they're typically used improperly...and yes, as a gimmick. 3D Cut Precision is not a gimmick, any more than ASET is a gimmick, but without training in the fundamental implications of light return (first) and precision (as a supplement) its easy for "H&A" to get categorized that way.
In terms of presence in diamond centers it's the reverse of what you described. There are tool stores in the professional Antwerp DD where ideal-scopes and H&A viewers are for sale in the windows. That doesn't mean they're in frequent use on the street - they're not. But the newest emerging markets in the world are demanding increased cut-quality accountability. More and more H&A reports are being issued in China. The HRD in Antwerp introduced a H&A report a few years ago. We cut our diamond brand in Antwerp and - while our process goes far beyond the simple views in these devices - we employ them in photos and scans to downstream retail clients. There is at least one cutting factory other than ours doing this (in Surat) and possibly others I don't know about.
badabling|1348658999|3274821 said:
This is absolutely the key. As a trade member I'm not permitted to recommend specific dealers. But there are some NY dealers with a presence here, and elsewhere on the internet, who understand far more about cut particulars - the "final frontier" of grading - than the average dealer. From time to time we have had like-minded retailers from Europe posting here, but I have not seen them in a while.
The bottom line? In my opinion, selecting a trusted professional who will deliver the best value is just as important, if not more important, than where you go to seek the diamond. I hope you'll keep us informed about the search.
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John;
It sounds as if the main difference between Antwerp and NYC is the distance from the diamond district of each city from the train station. Antwerp's district is very close to the station and Penn Station and Grand Central Station in NYC are several blocks distant. If time is the element, then Antwerp is faster, espeically if you happen to be near that city, but if you are in the USA, then it really might be a bit less costly to visit New York, take a taxi and buy there.
The world has become much smaller and more efficient in terms of sourcing diamonds. Where ever a customer is, a ready supply of diamonds, at fair prices, are only a day away.
It sounds as if the main difference between Antwerp and NYC is the distance from the diamond district of each city from the train station. Antwerp's district is very close to the station and Penn Station and Grand Central Station in NYC are several blocks distant. If time is the element, then Antwerp is faster, espeically if you happen to be near that city, but if you are in the USA, then it really might be a bit less costly to visit New York, take a taxi and buy there.
The world has become much smaller and more efficient in terms of sourcing diamonds. Where ever a customer is, a ready supply of diamonds, at fair prices, are only a day away.
thank you all for the information!!
since i've had some experience with good old gold i'm more familiar with ASET and Idealscope images they provide with their stones. so if most dealers don't have these technologies how does an untrained customer buy a diamond online... just based on a certificate and maybe a photo? what are some things i should look out for?
i've selected a couple from good old gold since i liked my first experience with them. can someone pls. advise? i am leaning toward the 2.2 J color one but i'm a little afraid of the color but do like the ideal cut grading and size. i'm a little wary of very good grading for cuts.... does it make a difference?
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8214/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9204/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8798/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9088/
since i've had some experience with good old gold i'm more familiar with ASET and Idealscope images they provide with their stones. so if most dealers don't have these technologies how does an untrained customer buy a diamond online... just based on a certificate and maybe a photo? what are some things i should look out for?
i've selected a couple from good old gold since i liked my first experience with them. can someone pls. advise? i am leaning toward the 2.2 J color one but i'm a little afraid of the color but do like the ideal cut grading and size. i'm a little wary of very good grading for cuts.... does it make a difference?
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8214/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9204/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8798/
http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/9088/
rubybeth
Ideal_Rock
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- Nov 12, 2007
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badabling|1348788597|3275734 said:
Those are all August Vintage Cushions (AVCs), which are only available at Good Old Gold. You won't find them elsewhere, so if that's what you want, then that's where you should buy. Only you can decide if J color is too low for you, but some people feel that the antique cuts and antique-style cuts mask color or look better in lower colors. I'm sure Jon at Good Old Gold (GOG) has videos comparing different color AVCs, which may help you decide.
Are you running the HCA on these? The HCA is only for round brilliant (RB) cuts.
I will say that your original question was about 'dealers' which has a different meaning than 'vendors.' A dealer generally only deals with vendors. The vendors (say GOG in this case) might work out a deal with a dealer for rough or for already cut stones that meet certain criteria (or no criteria at all!). So, your early posts on this thread made it sound like you were in the diamond trade, looking for dealers, when in fact it seems you are consumer/customer looking for a good vendor. You might want to make a different post asking for help choosing an AVC, if that's what you are hoping to do.
I think all of your questions can be answered by reading through this: https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds
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I didn't think you were in the trade. Your original question is asked by many consumers - I hope the answers have been helpful.badabling|1348978399|3276710 said:
RubyBeth correctly pointed out that people on Pricescope use the term "vendor" to imply retail sales.
For what it's worth, the lines are far more blurred in the real world. Retailer and dealer both indeed imply public sales, with manufacturers often listing either their "authorized retailers" or "authorized dealers" in your area. Public outlets may also call themselves traders, brokers, "wholesalers"
, etc. Stepping up the diamond supply chain you'll find regional brokers, polished dealers, suppliers and closed buying organizations like those of Finley, Sterling, Buffet, etc. These suppliers do not sell to the public. The next step up finds (true) international wholesalers and polished manufacturers. At the peak of are a limited number of secondary rough sellers and sightholders, capped by mining houses/rough distributors.Business evolution and vertical integration have created tangents and shortcuts in the chain. Our company, for example, doesn't work with regional suppliers; we interface directly with our authorized retailers. Similarly, some of Pricescope's most reputable vendors have developed relationships with polished diamond manufacturers. Their ability to deliver favorable value and good benefits, compared to stores with more steps in the chain, is why they are frequently recommended.
Thanks for your questions as it makes a very interesting thread with all the experts posting. if you are wondering about a GIA J color..check out this thread on the 5c J antique cushion honker in a halo. On page 3 she posts her story of what she went through to find this large stone and how "icy white" it looks to her. I post this thread often as I think a J color can be the best for finding a larger stone that still faces up very white. there was one thread where a girl was in a GIA grading class and had an N color AVC or AVR...not one person could guess the color...LOL!
I love both of the J color AVC's you posted. The more rectangular one faces up larger and if you set it E/W it will be very stunning and look more square IMO....if you are into the more square cushions which i prefer as well. Good luck on your search. hope this helps.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/leon-mege-antique-cushion.140739/page-3']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/leon-mege-antique-cushion.140739/page-3[/URL]
I love both of the J color AVC's you posted. The more rectangular one faces up larger and if you set it E/W it will be very stunning and look more square IMO....if you are into the more square cushions which i prefer as well. Good luck on your search. hope this helps.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/leon-mege-antique-cushion.140739/page-3']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/leon-mege-antique-cushion.140739/page-3[/URL]
thank you all for being so encouraging and supportive!!
ariel144 i do like the 2.08 J august vintage but was worried about the AGS very good cut grade while the J 2.20 for just $1132 more has ideal cut, polish and symmetry and larger carat weight. good old gold made a video for me and my eyes kept going back to the 2.08 but the cert for the 2.20 just read so much better. i'm torn between the two... also do AVC have smaller tables than generic old mine cut cushions?
i also got two generic old mine cut cushions from another vendor, i have yet to see photos of the diamonds but here's the specs:
1. 2.58 I, SI1, table 51%, depth 69%, culet - very large, polish - excellent, symmetry - very good.
2. 2.1 H, VS1, table 50%, depth 69.6%, culet - very large, polish - excellent, symmetry - very good.
are these specs ok? is the 2.1 H a little too deep? i do like the AVC but they are much more expensive than the generic old mine cut cushions. i'm having a really hard time deciding which one... any info, advice, tips would help!
ariel144 i do like the 2.08 J august vintage but was worried about the AGS very good cut grade while the J 2.20 for just $1132 more has ideal cut, polish and symmetry and larger carat weight. good old gold made a video for me and my eyes kept going back to the 2.08 but the cert for the 2.20 just read so much better. i'm torn between the two... also do AVC have smaller tables than generic old mine cut cushions?
i also got two generic old mine cut cushions from another vendor, i have yet to see photos of the diamonds but here's the specs:
1. 2.58 I, SI1, table 51%, depth 69%, culet - very large, polish - excellent, symmetry - very good.
2. 2.1 H, VS1, table 50%, depth 69.6%, culet - very large, polish - excellent, symmetry - very good.
are these specs ok? is the 2.1 H a little too deep? i do like the AVC but they are much more expensive than the generic old mine cut cushions. i'm having a really hard time deciding which one... any info, advice, tips would help!
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