Red Spinel E-Ring Pic & Description- Price too much? Advice needed- Thanks :-)

[UkneekFreak]

Hello Everyone
This forum has been so helpful. Thanks for all your help.

Through my research to find an engagement ring with a red spinel stone, I found this ring. It was originally set with a ruby in this picture and has trillian side diamonds. I called and spoke with a representative, and was told that I could replace the ruby with a red spinel and make the side stones princess cut instead for $7,500. My fiance and I are new to this whole field of searching for an e-ring and as to how much they cost. Is this a steep price for the ring I have described above? I am inserting a link to the pic of the ring I am referring too? Should we bring a picture of it or describe it to another jeweler, and see if we can get a better deal? Please let me know. I really adore that ring. Thanks in advance for all your help, everyone

http://www.jewelryexpert.com/catalog/Regal-Ruby-Engraved-Ring-cer.htm

 

[strmrdr]

I like that ring.
Keep in mind that ring will be hard to resize and keep it looking good if its ever required.
$7500 seems high but without knowing the size color and clarity of the side stones and the size color and clarity of the spinel its hard to say.
They are known for finding top notch spinels and while a lot cheaper than great rudies they arent exactly cheap.

I guess my bottom line is that I dont have enough information to say yes or no on the $7500 being a good deal or not.

 

[raddygast]

You''ve posted this twice, but I have to admit this second post is much clearer in describing your situation. After reading the first post I was totally unclear as to whether you were asking whether $7,500 was too much for a ring that already existed, for a quote on a possible custom ring, or for some sort of budget you were aiming at in constructing a ring of those parameters.

Now that I know it was an approximate price that was quoted to you by jewelryexpert.com (for a similar design to the "Regal Ruby"), I have more to go on.

Well, what to say? I could go on for hours, because I''m pedantic, and because I''ve taken quite an interest in these things lately. You should know that I''m in the process of having a red spinel e-ring made as well. I''m just starting to work on the ring itself, but luckily I''ve found my stone. I should admit to you right now that it took me four months of searching, and I don''t mean four months measured between beginning to think about it and closing the deal. I mean four months of solid research and relentless haranguing and inquiries of various jewellers and dealers, B&M and online. I felt like a cross between Indiana Jones, an art collector, a detective, and a telemarketer!

So, I''ll start at the beginning. Why do you want a red spinel? From your post it seems like you are in love with a particular ring design (or concept) from jewelryexpert.com which happens to incorporate an emerald-cut ruby. They advised you that the ruby might be replaced by a red spinel to lower the cost. Is that right? Spinel is quite durable enough to be set in an e-ring, so it would seem like a great choice to replace the ruby.

Now let me just say that there are a billion reasons to want a red spinel. Many of these stand completely on their own, as fine red spinel is a fantastically historied, exceedingly rare, and profoundly beautiful gem. There are also reasons to appreciate spinel specifically in comparison to a ruby. These get more complicated, but I''ll try to list them.

1) Spinel is not treated for color. Hence whatever beauty you behold is a product of mother nature alone. This is a built-in advantage for spinel, because even treated (and treated and *healed*) rubies cost much more than the equivalent red spinel. Untreated rubies are basically for the exceedingly rich, so you can''t make the comparison.

2) Spinel has greater dispersion than ruby (more "fire"). It is also for some tastes more optically pleasing, as it is single-refractive (as opposed to ruby which is doubly refractive). This results in a slightly cleaner, more transparent and clear look. My girlfriend, to whom I have shown several rubies, has remarked that ignoring color (she hasn''t yet seen the great stone I finally found) she much prefers the look of spinel to ruby that she characterizes as "murky." Note this is not just true of lower-grade, highly included ruby. I think it is part of the look of even high-end rubies with the desired rutile "silk" light-scattering effect, along with fluorescence. Just a matter of preference, but spinel can look a lot more "flawless" in a sense. So if you can find one with the color you like, you may find you even *prefer* it to ruby.

3) Some absolutely fine spinels have a fluorescence that approaches rubies, and hence the argument for red fluorescence no longer makes ruby come out clearly on top.

4) Probably the most important to you: really fine red spinel is *MUCH* cheaper than really fine untreated ruby of equivalent quality. (but there are some problems, more on that below). Depending on how fine the spinel, it is most likely going to be cheaper than even mediocre treated ruby.

5) Spinel has a lot of cachet among gem connoisseurs nowadays. Prices have begun to skyrocket in the last few years, mostly in response to the creation of newer treatment methods for ruby. As more and more lower-grade ruby is repaired and beautified, there is more nice-looking ruby on the market, making untreated gems more desirable and unique. Untreated ruby is becoming astronomically expensive and ridiculously scarce (see mogok''s post on alluvial vs. hard-rock mining in Mogok, Burma), so spinel is one of the last few bastions of natural beauty, and the only one in the area of red gems. So it may be that your ring will be worth quite a bit in a couple of decades -- not that the potential re-sale value should matter in a symbol of total lifelong commitment. But just knowing that you have an heirloom that is increasing in value is comforting.

Drawbacks:

1) Ruby is slightly harder (9 on the mohs'' scale). This is not the end of the world. Spinel is durable enough.

2) Ruby is said to be able to hold its color better in different lighting. Now if you get a spinel with good fluorescence, the difference won''t be as pronounced. In typical fluorescent lighting, or seriously red-deficient lighting (as well as lighting strong in orange but low in red) both ruby and spinel will look terrible, but ruby will look less terrible.

3) Recognition. This is double-edged. Personally, I *almost* prefer it that spinel is so unknown. Are you comfortable with that? If you had a fantastic spinel, how would you feel about most people asking you if it was ruby (or assuming it was)? On the other hand, lack of recognition makes it that much more unique, especially if you can elaborate some of the history of spinel.

4) I''m about to present the biggest difficulty to you. Yes, it is true that you can have a fantastic looking spinel at a tiny fraction of the price of the equivalent natural ruby, and probably a good deal less than an equivalent treated ruby. But the catch to that is: good luck finding one! The internet is full of extremely cheap, low-grade spinel. Jewellers in North America are liable to get their hands on fairly well-cut specimens of considerable size and low price, but the color will be miles and miles off what you would want. To find a truly fine red spinel is like having dental surgery without anaesthesia. It is nearly unbearable. First of all, almost any jeweller you go to is going to say "I''ll get back to you on that." Most of them never will, because they will be unable to find anything nice. Some others may call you back and say they''ve found something -- but don''t get excited until you see it (from personal experience). The truth is, because spinel is so under-marketed and unknown at least over here, and because it is so devastatingly rare in the fine qualities, there is almost nothing of exceptional quality on the market, and what does exist tends to be bought up by collectors. Probably in sizes under 3 carats that''s unlikely to make a major difference, but even sub-3 carat specimens are tough to find in good color. And it seems to be getting worse by the year from what I understand. So the big price advantage is almost neutralized, because first you have to actually FIND it. It is quite frankly thousands of times easier to find a nice (treated) ruby. Go into a fine store, tell them what you want and make sure you tell them you''re willing to spend a lot of money, and they''ll come up with something for you pronto, because odds are they have connections with dealers who carry top ruby in inventory (this is treated we''re talking about here, and probably healed too). If you want to find spinel, the best advice is to go to really high-end stores (or Internet dealers with good reputations) and be realistic with the budget you give them. If it''s reasonable they should be able to find something if there is anything out there, but most of them will turn up nothing suitable.

5) Cut. The way it works is like this: for reasons of business and profit maximization, the miners and dealers at the source will rarely sell rough for people to cut to their own specs, because faceted gems can sell for much more than rough. So any fine-colored specimens will be cut natively in the country of origin, or at least in Thailand. This is as true for ruby as it is for spinel. So if you want something nicely cut, like that emerald-cut in the "Regal Ruby", there is not only a price premium but a difficulty premium in finding it. In spinel, you should basically forget about it completely. Fine spinels will almost definitely be cushion-cut, or at least ovals. Rounds are nearly unheard of, as well as emerald cuts, and anything else that appeals to a symmetry-conscious American or European clientele.


PHEW. Now that that''s off my chest, I should give you a couple of guidelines and some encouragement, and maybe answers to your price question.

1) I think if you are willing to accept some realistic ranges of color, you should be able to find something. I would advise you to look for stones that are classified with a GIA hue of R (pure red) to oR (slightly orangish red). Depending on your tastes, slpR may be ok too (slightly purplish red, but this is much more common in rubies than spinels). As far as tone, apparently medium (5) is ideal, medium-dark is also desirable (6). Once you get lighter (4) or especially darker (7) the stone drops in quality. Most spinels are too dark, i.e. have a high tone or "shadow". They look much more like garnets. You may like this, but it is not considered very high quality, and has a concomitant effect on price. You should go by what you like, but I just wanted to warn you.

For cut, many spinels are also cut too shallowly, so this will create windowing. Avoid that if possible. Try to pick a cut that is pleasing to you, and has a decent amount of life. But by far the most important aspect are the proportions -- too deep can be too dark and overpriced, too shallow will be much too windowed.

For clarity, try to get a stone that is on the verge of eye clean (or completely eye clean). Inclusions are expected under a loupe, but try to avoid fractures that break the surface. If the stone is nearly eye clean any feathers or cracks are liable to be harmless, but have a lab or appraiser make sure.

For a stone of R hue, tone: 5 to 6, and saturation strong (or better), with a decent cut and acceptable non-threatening clarity, I think you''d be looking 1500-2000 USD/carat minimum. That''s for sizes under 2 carats. If you accept oR hue, that might lower the price a bit. Mind you I found my stone for quite a bit less, but I was very fortunate to do so.

For a spinel the size of that ruby in the picture (1.6ct EC), I would say about 2500 to 3000 USD is expected for a fine specimen. It may be impossible to find one emerald cut, though. Platinum costs quite a bit too, and engraving puts it over the top. Not sure what you had in mind for the setting, and I have no clue about diamond prices, but if you allocate about 3000 to the stone (spinel), that leaves 4500 (from 7500) for the rest of the ring. To me, that seems a bit high, but from what I know jewelryexpert.com is definitely in the upper range of retail prices -- certainly their prices are high compared to most "internet" jewellers. Many of their pieces are engraved and that is very labour and skill intensive, so costly. But even the non-engraved work tends to be a bit inflated, in my opinion. My guess is that they will charge more than 3000 for a spinel like that, and maybe they''d be justified if they found a really nice one. But as I said, I think they are on the high end in pricing and markups.

2) One ray of sunshine, however, is that jewelryexpert.com seems to be quite accomplished with their stone sourcing. I have seen about three spinel rings in their past gallery, as well as a stone (radiant-cut emerald) they sold separately, and it looks to be fantastic.

Fantastic radiant EC spinel

Trilliant spinel ring

Spinel trellis ring

Arrest Me Red Spinel Ring

My favourite, Flame Geometry Red Spinel Ring

So much of what I said about red spinel being an excellent choice, but extremely tough to find, may not apply. I don''t know. My guess is that they charge quite a bit for their stones, but they will save you the effort and hassle that I went through (though it was a labour of love for me). They may be able to instantly (or near-instantly) procure a suitable stone for you. I never inquired with them because I knew I would not be able to afford their prices on a finished piece -- but maybe they would be willing to just find you the stone? It''s up to you. It can''t hurt to ask.

It may be that you could find something just as good for quite a bit less, but VERY unlikely that you''d be able to hit upon a stone that great without spending a huge amount of time and having a good deal of luck (like I did). So in a sense, if your time is worth a lot to you, going with them may be a good idea. They seem to have good spinel connections, though their rubies and sapphires have not impressed me very much.

Anyway, I hope that what I''ve posted here makes sense and is helpful. If you have further questions please post them. As you can probably tell I rather enjoy shooting off at the mouth regarding my experience and "spinel education." Doing a search on my posts, but in particular Mogok''s, spinel''s, Richard Hughes'', and so forth will uncover much info on this topic. As will a search on ruby, in particular a thread on spinel vs. ruby. Here let me dig it up for you:

Spinel vs. ruby thread

Good luck, and keep us dialed in...

-raddy

 

[strmrdr]

raddygast,
Awesome post!
Thank you, I will be refering to it in the future.

 

[lindsal]

Raddygast.. wow, a lot of learning in one post for me, thanks for taking the time to write all that out!

 

[UkneekFreak]

Raddygast, I just wanted to thank you for all your help and for all the info. you left in responding to my inquiry. Your information will be extremely useful throughout my search. I''ll keep you posted. Best wishes and congrats on your new ring.
-UkneekFreak

 

[pricescope]

Raddy, thanks for the great post. I have one question. Why this one is your favorite: http://www.jewelryexpert.com/catalog/Flame-Spinel-Ring-er.htm?

 

[AGBF]

I love the "Arrest Me Red" spinel and would like to know the dimensions of the stone. Just out of curiosity. (I already have one unset red spinel that is a stoplight red!) I know one cannot tell from the monitor, but on my monitor the "Arrest Me Red" is top of the line color!!!

Deb

 

[raddygast]

Well, I can see that the spinel in that ring is not of "optimal color" compared to the Arrest Me Red and certainly not that Radiant loose spinel. So I understand your confusion, but I happen to adore the shocking contrast between the platinum and the red of the spinel. The trilliant ring is a bit too small to have the same effect, and a slightly darker color on my monitor.

Also, that never-neverland border between red and the slightest hints of pink is beginning to really appeal to me, probably because my spinel has similar characteristics in daylight.

 

[Michael_E]

UkneekFreak,
If you are concerned about whether something is worth what is asked for it, then you need to basically break down the costs of the parts, add them up, ad some moola for the labor of putting it all together and then decide if it''s reasonable. With most colored stones this can be tough, since there is no readily available price guide to colored stones. This is not just for the general public, but even members of the trade can have difficulty in determining accurate pricing on colored stones. There are just so many variables. One of the biggest factors influencing the cost of a piece is the story that goes along with it, which includes who it is bought from and their general reputation. I mean that buying fromHarry Winston or Tiffany''s will always cost more than from a more obscure shop. In the case of this particular ring you can split the costs into the band, the center stone and the diamonds. Let''s say the band, being hand engraved and platinum is worth $3000, (pretty steep , but that hand engraving is cool), the spinel is worth $2000, (again very spendy for a spinel under 2 carats, but what the heck, it''s not my money), and the diamonds at 20 points apiece are worth $800. The cost to set the stones is about $200. What does this add up to ? $6000 These are high prices for the individual items and include a good markup over their wholesale costs. Whether the piece is worth it is something only you can answer.

Raddygast,
I don''t need to tell you this, since you are heading in that direction on your own, but there are no "optimal colors". I would personally choose your spinel over the "Arrest me red" spinel in a heartbeat. To me that arrest me red is too brash and, although it would be pretty in a collection, I would not wear it. For most though it is preferable, if only due to everyone else believing in it''s superiority, and so it will remain much higher in value. Finding and appreciating beauty is not about agreement with other people, it''s about finding and going with that feeling in yourself.

 

[just_looking!]

What about these two ebay finds? Worth a look?

red spinel

Madagascar Spinel

 

[valeria101]

Date: 1/31/2005 2:16:6 PM
Author: just_looking!
What about these two ebay finds? Worth a look?

red spinel

Madagascar Spinel

#2 has a nice cut... and the price is barely enough to facet anything at all. The picture looks good, so does the return policy... and there isn't much more one can ask for online. At worst it may be some syntetic material someone used to practice an unusual cut

#1 should be rather dark if even the photos look that way - probably brownish a bit, like port and if I am right, than this one would get pretty dim once set.

Honestly ? I definitely like them all ! Since these can't possibly be a rip off anywhere near the current prices, why not take a look if you so wish. It is a bit unusual to see a nice piece with no reserve, but what do I know ? Perhaps this seller figured out some other type of safety net. You can always ask

Just my 0.2.

I should add some disclaimer here: I am very convinced that allot more is worth seeing, buying and wearing than the rarefied best of ruby-emerald-sapphire that is more often talked about as engagement-ring and collectable material. Money doesn't enter the equation... Those perfect bits come from a pool of noble peers that deserve respect for lineage alone, in my opinion. Without their appreciation, allot of magic is lost if one never has the opportunity to see just how very beautiful "imperfection" gets before hitting the inimaginable. Otherwise, "perfect" stuff comes from the oven too - potentially a dime a dozen. Unlike natural pebbles, imperfect cookies get trashed. Those have no bedrock to stand out againt - just quality control.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 1/30/2005 10:32:49 PM
Author: Michael_E
To me that arrest me red is too brash and, although it would be pretty in a collection, I would not wear it.

Brash!? I finally like something brash? I am usually the most ulra-conservative, classic jewelry lover! I wouldn''t set that stone as it is set, but I would most *certainly* wear it!!! I guess that''s why they make vanilla and chocolate!

Deb

 

[Hest88]

Isn''t that "arrest me red" closer to the color of the ideal pigeon''s blood "fire engine red" ruby? It''s actually one of the reasons why I''m not a big ruby fan; I also prefer a less brash appearance.

 

[raddygast]

From the picture that red looks like it has a bit more orange in it than it should. I''ve seen that the pigeon''s blood "definition" often includes a subtle hint of blue (i.e. purplishness) in the red, or that it is straight red, but never heard that a touch of orange is characteristic of it.

But basically, orange enhances "redness" for me psychologically, at least the "fire engine" or "traffic light" varieties. I''ve done a lot of time staring at red traffic lights recently, believe me, and they definitely have some orange in them.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/1/2005 2:167 PM
Author: raddygast

But basically, orange enhances ''redness'' for me psychologically, at least the ''fire engine'' or ''traffic light'' varieties. I''ve done a lot of time staring at red traffic lights recently, believe me, and they definitely have some orange in them.

Not just for you... "flame spinel" is one famous trade name, and very straightforward about what exactly it preises, I think.

Fire is not red-red. Cheap nailpolish is

Perhaps this one is just worthless pub philosophy, but... it seems that some play of color (call it dichroism, zoning, contrast, overtone - and there must be other sources too) adds interest to anything (expensive nailpolish, car paint, collection roses, venetian silk and gemstones... feal free to add to the list). In theory, pure tones may not even exist. I find it surprising that nearly every sort of item to which style, taste and aestetic refinement applies, generates a whole dictionary of color shades.

Would you ask for "red" in this shop ?

 

[Hest88]

Borrowed from Pala, of course, here''s a ruby of the finest color.

 

[pricescope]

Date: 2/1/2005 2:16

7 PM
Author: raddygast
From the picture that red looks like it has a bit more orange in it than it should. I''ve seen that the pigeon''s blood ''definition'' often includes a subtle hint of blue (i.e. purplishness) in the red, or that it is straight red, but never heard that a touch of orange is characteristic of it.

But basically, orange enhances ''redness'' for me psychologically, at least the ''fire engine'' or ''traffic light'' varieties. I''ve done a lot of time staring at red traffic lights recently, believe me, and they definitely have some orange in them.

Guys, I might be mistaken and I don''t want to say anything bad about the stones, however, I''m afraid that one can''t say much by the computer images especially if they were doctored.

 

[Matata]

Date: 2/1/2005 4:33:47 PM
Author: Hest88
Borrowed from Pala, of course, here''s a ruby of the finest color.

It looks like a piece of candy. The Mogok Ruby is the only pic I''ve seen of a ruby I liked and only because it looks as close to a spinel as a ruby can get

 

[raddygast]

In that picture of Alan Caplan''s ruby you can really see the double-refractive effect, or "blurry" quality as Mogok put it.

I do like it, but I think I prefer spinel for its clarity. That said, the poor learn to appreciate what is within their means, don''t they?

Leonid, I''m not sure I understand what you''re getting at with your post. You think those images are doctored, or you think that spinel is ugly?

 

[pricescope]

I think images are doctored.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 2/1/2005 6

2:14 PM
Author: leonid
I think images are doctored.

I agree.
Some more than others but a little too much photoshopin going on for me.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/1/2005 6:2:14 PM
Author: leonid
I think images are doctored.

And even if they wouldn''t be... It is so darn hard to just give up looking at any picture at all and wait for the perfect technology. Hard to justify, as well, I think.


I am not trying to argue pro or against anything. The pictures are there, life would be dull without. What do you think is proper use of such visual clues ?

What could be done to show the color and shape of tiny, colored , intricately shaped prisms on a computer screen ? Seriously

Perhaps the rendition is not exact, but... how about obtaining the correct absorbtion spectrum black on white ? It is no easier to mentally convert numbers into color than to guess just how optimistic the photographer was about redear foolhadiness.

Whatever the sellers cited on this thread did with their photo display does have some correspondent in reality. It must be in their best interest to insulate clients from screen-shock.

 

[Hest88]

How about this one? This is another Pala and it''s a spinel that their description claims is among the top 2% of red spinels in terms of color. If their spinel picts are as good as their demantoid picts it should be fairly true to life. Definitely less fire engine, with more black to it:

 

[raddygast]

There''s one thing that I''ve noticed about pala -- all their pics look fantastic. And that leads me to suspicion. I''m not saying they are doctoring, but I think they use "optimal" photography techniques. They put the stone on a light (white?) background and bombard it with really intense direct lighting; that''s my guess. Why? All their gems appear very bright and saturated. A couple I inquired about and heard back that they were slightly too dark in tone, or that stone A was a full tone grade brighter than stone B (whereas on the screen they appeared identical).

As for the "bit of black" in that spinel, I think it''s one of the reasons I like spinel (or at least brilliant-faceted spinel, which mine is not). I love the alternation between intense red/pink/orange and black, the closer to red the better. Rubies don''t get as much extinction -- not sure about why, but I think it''s a combination of rutile silk, general includedness, and perhaps the double-refraction or something. But they seem less "clear".

I have to look into that spinel though -- the top 2% one. Where did you find it?

 

[Hest88]

Raddy, it''s here: http://www.palagems.com/php/db_search.php?action=gemdetail&inventory_number=1726

With my two demantoids, they really looked amazingly close to their pictures--though, yes, if under intense lighting conditions. I wonder if dems are just easier to photograph.

 

[Mikey7]

The info on the spinels has been a great help. You guys really do a good job for us newbies. Now that I''ve buttered you up L please give me a little more help. I recently found a large spinel that to my untrained eye was very nice. But since the dealer was asking 75,000 baht for it I was not willing to bet on it with my limited knowlege. If I go back and look again can you tell me what telltale signs to look for that would indicate it was either fake or doctored? I cant run tests there so its gamble on the visuals.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 2/2/2005 10:59:16 PM
Author: Mikey7
The info on the spinels has been a great help. You guys really do a good job for us newbies. Now that I've buttered you up L please give me a little more help. I recently found a large spinel that to my untrained eye was very nice. But since the dealer was asking 75,000 baht for it I was not willing to bet on it with my limited knowlege. If I go back and look again can you tell me what telltale signs to look for that would indicate it was either fake or doctored? I cant run tests there so its gamble on the visuals.

Hi, I am a consumer who makes frequent mistakes, so take this with a grain of salt:

I do not believe that spinels can be heat treated to enhance color. (I am fairly sure about this one.) If you cannot tell a spinel from a piece of red glass, however, only buy one from someone whom you trust and/or have it independently appraised.

Deborah

 

[elmo]

Date: 2/2/2005 10:59:16 PM
Author: Mikey7
If I go back and look again can you tell me what telltale signs to look for that would indicate it was either fake or doctored?

Mike - your profile says you''re in Thailand? Maybe talk with the person who posts here as Mogok about having AIGS in Bangkok look at it for you. I''d be more concerned whether it''s synthetic spinel than glass .

 

[valeria101]

Date: 2/2/2005 10:59:16 PM
Author: Mikey7
I recently found a large spinel that to my untrained eye was very nice. But since the dealer was asking 75,000 baht for it I was not willing to bet on it with my limited knowlege. If I go back and look again can you tell me what telltale signs to look for that would indicate it was either fake or doctored? I cant run tests there so its gamble on the visuals.

If looking is a gamble... immagine what good a text descriptions could do !

Surely you must have checked optics and inlcusions already. Beyond that, I do not know of any one shot test.

I can''t imagine why the seller would refuse to make any arrangements at all for certification, if you commit on the sale conditional on results. Negotiating such a thing might be quite tricky, but not impossible. The price would probably go up...

Have you tried any such approach already ?