When Families Go Bad

[Gypsy]

I just couldn't resist the title... But it's not accurate for my post.

I'm a little fluxxomed by the conversation regarding the wedding I had with my mother on Wednesday. While she was in critical condition she was worried about the fact that she would not live to see my wedding... And well, with everything else, it seemed it was time for me to start planning (again) nowthat she's better (though still in the hospital). I thought she'd be happy.

Well, she wasn't unhappy with the wedding thing. But very unhappy with the plans I was forming. If she can't have a big wedding here in California so that she can invite all the people she "absolutely has to invite" she wants us to get married overseas in Hawaii or Mexico. So that she's not embarrassed by the small wedding we were planning that just "will not work and isn't practical. Really honey, no one has even HEARD of a brunch wedding, you made it up, everyone is going to think it's strange."

My mother, a MAJOR reason my weddings to date have cancelled is back to her old self. She's impossible to please. And I MEAN that.

And I'm really hurt. We are paying. I do NOT want to have anyone other than those I care for at my wedding (and I do NOT care for most of those she would attend, all her friends), and do not want to spend a ridiculous amount on a wedding. Plus I don't want to plan a wedding that would be cost prohibitive for John's family to attend, and I want my grandfather who can't fly to attend (which was why I was focusing on CA).

And well, she's being selfish again. I do love her. And I'm going to stick to my guns, but I'll wait till she's out of the hospital before we attack. But John is fed up (8 years of wedding planning this woman has tormentted us with).

How is it possible to love someone so much, and yet be so angry and hurt at them.

Just had to vent. This wedding planning is going to be a nightmare.

And when I said we couldn't afford the wedding she wants, she said, "what's the rush, wait a couple of years."

EIGHT YEARS, I'm not going to want to spend 50K on a wedding in 2 years either. I'm very frustrated.

I think I'm going to plan the wedding, and send her an invitation. Wish it were different.

 

[Kaleigh]

Oh Geez Layla, so sorry she is being such a pill. I think you have to focus on what you want. For heavens sakes, now you have waited 8 years, and there is still no pleasing her. So move on with what you and John want for your wedding. I think at this point you have to accept she will not be happy with the wedding you guys want. It''s your wedding not hers!! I''d keep the details to a minimum, at least until she''s out of the hospital. And when you can, say look Mom, this is what John and I want, hopefully you can accept that and be happy for us. Be firm with her.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 10/19/2007 12:05:24 PM
Author: Kaleigh
Oh Geez Layla, so sorry she is being such a pill. I think you have to focus on what you want. For heavens sakes, now you have waited 8 years, and there is still no pleasing her. So move on with what you and John want for your wedding. I think at this point you have to accept she will not be happy with the wedding you guys want. It''s your wedding not hers!! I''d keep the details to a minimum, at least until she''s out of the hospital. And when you can, say look Mom, this is what John and I want, hopefully you can accept that and be happy for us. Be firm with her.

Big ditto to this, sorry about all this Layla

 

[Maisie]

I can''t help you out as I haven''t been in your position before, but I just wanted to send a hug. I''m sorry you are feeling sad.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 10/19/2007 12:05:24 PM
Author: Kaleigh
Oh Geez Layla, so sorry she is being such a pill. I think you have to focus on what you want. For heavens sakes, now you have waited 8 years, and there is still no pleasing her. So move on with what you and John want for your wedding. I think at this point you have to accept she will not be happy with the wedding you guys want. It's your wedding not hers!! I'd keep the details to a minimum, at least until she's out of the hospital. And when you can, say look Mom, this is what John and I want, hopefully you can accept that and be happy for us. Be firm with her.

She is a pill about this. It's just a never ending saga, this wedding. I will take your advice and wait till she's out of the hospital, but after that, I think I'm just going to have to lay down the law. As for it being my wedding and not hers... trust me, you'd NEVER know it to speak to her. John has asked me if I want him to speak to her, as I've been TRYING to for eight years, and obviously to no effect. As much as I like to keep down potential problems with him and my family (cause they are crazy, case in point) I might just let him try to get through to her. I'm having no appreciable effect.

I love her, but MAN is she a PITA about this.

I'm really sad it has to be this way though. I just wish she'd be happy for me, and try to understand that it's my day, and support me with this. Oh well. After 8 years, I'm surprised it still hurts, but it does.

Thank you Lorelei and Masie. ((HUGSS) are much appreciated.

 

[Mara]

it''s time that your mother realizes that you are not a child anymore and that she cannot control you and john. i have a lot of controlling women in my family as well, and i''m sure i''ll be one as well with my children, it''s in the genes! my mom would run roughshod over me if i allowed it and if i was a softer personality. she was not happy with us having a hawaii wedding as she wanted it to be local for us to invite everyone she wanted us to, aka everyone who she wanted to say ''hey look my daughter is getting married'' to. but yes we were paying for it. so basically i just told them we were researching diff opps and they knew we went to hawaii but were also looking locally, and didn''t spill any of the goods on the hawaii thing until i flat out asked my entire family if they would come if we had the wedding in hawaii when we were all together one night for dinner. with everyone there, what was she going to say? so of course they said yes they''d come. and i told them to keep any $$ they were planning to give and just get themselves there. so that took any responsibility off of them and onto me. it was funny because while my mom was kind of vocal about not being happy about us doing this far away, she would also let spill tidbits about how her coworkers loved the romantic idea of a destination wedding and how she would show them all the pictures of this and that and how excited they all were for her. and then afterwards when i had an album made for her she was proudly showing it off at work and everyone was saying how beautiful it was and how lucky she was etc. so i think while she *said* she wasn''t jazzed about it, inside she was relieved because so much of the pressure was off her as mother of the bride and it turned out lovely so she still could have ''credit''...hahaha. i have event planning experience from my first days in marketing so i am very detail oriented and can basically do it all on my own without much input, which is how i prefer to mostly work for important things. i figure no one can do it better than me hehee.

part of you getting married has to do with you officially forming your own family unit with john. she has to respect that. i would be firm with her and when she starts going off, just say ''mom i appreciate your input but we''ll do what''s best for us, we have waited too long to get to this point and we want it to be what is important to us''. you don''t have to fight with her and it doesn''t have to be negative. also i wouldn''t ''engage'' her...if she starts to come back with rebuttals or the guilt trip, just tell her you love her and that you know she''ll love the outcome. usually when i say stuff like that to my mom, she just says ''oh well fine i guess what i want isnt important'' and i typically say something like ''not when it''s related directly to me and my husband (or then fiance)'' and then remind her that i do respect her opinion but it''s my life.

i think it''s very hard for controlling parents to realize their kids are all grown up and that they don''t have as much ''say'' anymore in their lives and how they live them. i also think many kids let their parents dictate and get all passive aggressive with them far too long and the longer that it goes on, the more entrenched it is for the parents and harder to break them of it.

i know your mom has been very sick and that you probably feel a little guilty not giving her what she wants but trust me, she realizes that. she will use the fact that you might be a little weak from the thought of almost losing her to push to her advantage. so i''d say just put your foot down, remind her it doesn''t mean you don''t love her but that you have to live your life for YOU and your future husband and that is what is important. good luck.

 

[Gypsy]

Mara, that was really insightful and so helpful. You experience and how you handled it all is exactly what I need to do. But your right, as she''s in the hopital, I have guilt, and she is, god love the woman, manipulative enough to take advantage of that. Thank you Mara. Much appreciated.

 

[misysu2]

Date: 10/19/2007 12:33:45 PM
Author: Maisie
I can''t help you out as I haven''t been in your position before, but I just wanted to send a hug. I''m sorry you are feeling sad.

I ditto Maisie.

I''m sorry your mother is giving you a hard time about the wedding planning. Take care of your mom, but take care of your wedding the way you want it. I don''t know your mom, but the happiness on your face at a brunch wedding should be worth it to her when she sees it.

{{big hugs!!}}

 

[Sha]

Uhm...I''m having a BRUNCH WEDDING, so it''s defiintely not made up!

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 10/19/2007 2:00:53 PM
Author: Sha
Uhm...I''m having a BRUNCH WEDDING, so it''s defiintely not made up!

LOL. In the western tradition it is MUCH more historically accurate to have one than an evening wedding actually. Before the twentieth century in England most ceremony''s occurred in the morning followed by a luncheon or brunch type celebration. So no, definitely not made up.

My mother is a snob. ANd her friends are too. They make up rules for correct social behavour and ridicule those who don''t follow them as inferior. It''s her biggest flaw. I can''t tell you the number of other people''s children''s weddings she''s crticisized so she''s afraid that if my wedding devaits from the strictures she''s been preaching for years SHE''ll be ridiculed. And she will be. But her past snobbery was not my fault, and her getting what she''s got coming to her aren''t my problem. Maybe she''ll learn to be less of a snot and keep in mind that weddings are personal events for the bride and groom NOT for the guests and that creativity and personalization aren''t sins. And neither are buffets (oy, the buffet conversation was a BAD one).

 

[door knob solitaire]

On the same line as Missy...

Honey...you have spent every ounce you and John had in the last months. You sweat blood sweat and tears to oversee and get results from a medical staff to take care of your mom. You have done things a daughter should never have had to do. But you did...unselfishly putting all things aside and getting the best care for her you could.

You have taken control. You have the strength to move professionals and staff and change procedures. You are so strong. Your little legs are cast of stone. Firmly planted. With confidence and determination to bulldoze through anything.

Lets put this in perspective. Now, lets see you are buckling because you have been told there is a bus load of grey hairs that have to be at YOUR WEDDING for someone else?? Where is that strength? Your muscles haven''t given way...they are stronger and have the experience to vocalize what you want! DO IT!

Mom, I am sorry, I have waited 8 years to marry. I have postponed things and I am in a stage in my life where the ceremony is important to me and John...but we are only going to spend X. Spending X means I can only invite a small amount of my personal friends and family. I plan to have it a brunch because I find it a unique time of day. It is my desire to have lollipops sticking out my hair. (making sure you are still reading this).

This is YOUR WEDDING. This is your life. THIS IS YOUR TIME not be guided by others needs wants and desires. You and John are going to commit to live YOUR LIVES together. This is a personal time...not some social event of the decade for all someone else knows to attend. Your guest list is YOUR GUEST LIST.

Grab hold of the fact that you and you alone are strong enough to plan this your way. Yes, involve your mother. You need more time together and this special bonding after what you have been through will be more priceless than jewels to you. You need not invite her associates for years back...so her social life has merit. OK?

One of you loudest cheerleaders...DKS (you should see my pom pons!!

)

 

[decodelighted]

She wouldn't be happy if she got exactly what she wanted. You're right that there's no way to "please" her. Just stop trying. It really is that simple once you decide to stop trying to please her & once you firmly believe that you have no reason to feel guilty for it. You have to believe it yourself though. We'll help you believe it.

As to the "wait a couple more years & save up" HAHAHAHHHAHHHHAHHAAAHAHAHA. "Um, MOOOOOM -- we only want to spend X amount: PERIOD!" You shouldn't mortgage your future for a one day martyrdom miserable event you don't even want. Weddings aren't "investments" -- it's thrown away & not coming back.

You should know by now: you can't buy your mother's love & respect. Close the checkbook. And she might just love you anyway.

 

[surfgirl]

You could always elope Gypsy...I know it sounds like you dont want to do that but I cannot imagine that you''ve postponed your wedding several times, and over EIGHT YEARS no less! That is unimaginable to me. People are right, your mother will not be happy with anything unless she plans it all and it''s "her" wedding. You want "your" wedding so go for it. If I were you, I''d lay down the lay, as Mara suggested, then never talk with her about it until the invites are ready and mailed. She just needs to show up, perferably showered and in a nice dress. That''s all! If you take the wedding discussion away from her, you take the aggravation away from YOU. Good luck.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

I couldn''t agree more with the very intelligent and very insightful ladies here. You have been so caring and compassionate--I think maybe the best role your mother could play is simply a guest at your wedding. Obviously you are entitled to do whatever you want, and this wedding should represent you and John. In some way, I''m sure she gets that, but she can''t seem to keep her opinions to herself. I''ve had a couple of friends who have had to forego having ANY wedding discussion with their mothers in order to keep the relationship in tact. Unfortunately it seems that weddings can be one of the bigger events in your life where you are forced to draw boundaries.

I absolutely love brunch weddings, btw. For a small, romantic wedding I can''t think of anything better!

 

[Mara]

lol surfgirl, ''preferrably showered and in a nice dress''....that got me laughing...and my belly hurts from too much lunch dim sum, so that''s an impressive feat.

 

[sumbride]

Gypsy, honey, it''s TIME TO GET MARRIED!!! And it''s time to do it YOUR way!

Ignore the fact that she is your mother for a second... if she were any one else, would this even be an issue? No!

My MIL was the problem for us... she hassled and hassled, complained and yelled, all while not paying a dime. We just stopped listening to her. We said "we''re going to do it our way" and eventually, though not until half-way through the wedding, she shut up and left us alone. Now, my way happened to be what my mom wanted, but my DH and I agreed that we were ok with it, so we let my mom have a say... but she also paid for it. If at any point we hadn''t wanted to go along with it, we wouldn''t, and we did speak up on a few things. Really the only ones who have a say are the people getting married and the people paying... and since you and John are doing BOTH, then don''t listen to ANYBODY else. I mean that. Diplomacy isn''t working here.

Just send her an invitation. That''s what we ended up doing to MIL. And I don''t regret it for a second. and for the record, she did show up showered and in a nice dress.

 

[Gypsy]

Your posts you've made me realize something.

I went to my mother with this intending this to be a "here's something fun to tell you about so you have something to look forward to" item.

And she interpreted it to be a "Hey mom, here's what I've got, does it meet with your approval." She told me to list research my options and make a list for her, with costs of each option, for her consideration.

So, the whole problem starts with her approach to this. I'm not asking her permission and don't want to discuss options with her. I'm just talking to her about it to entertain her and to bond with her. And she thinks I 'm a kid with a plan for approval by my mom.

Okay. You all are right. Foot is going down. I want a brunch/ lunch wedding. A small one. By the water or in a location I like that's pretty.

We aren't doing a destination thing because my grandfather can't attend, it's too expensive for John's family to expect them to pay to attend, and because we don't want to risk honeymooning with our families.

And her friends and her imagined commitments to them can and will be satisfied by a party she can throw, at her own expense and according to her own plans, after the wedding. I'll show up showered and in a nice dress to that.

 

[neatfreak]

Gypsy, you should do it YOUR way. And send an invite to your mom. And call it a day.

It is time that you get to have YOUR day the way YOU want it!!!!! And you certainly know what you want. It sounds very similar to what we wanted, and I can't tell you how amazing our day was. Even though my MIL gave us some hassle when we first came up with the idea, she ended up having a great day too. And she's getting her wish because we are allowing her to throw us a party in any way she desires, and inviting anyone she wants, this winter. That was our compromise.

 

[Gypsy]

You guys are so great about giving me perspective. DKS, you are correct honey, I have steel legs that turn to spagetti O''s with my mom. She''s a big weakness of mine, and I do let her manipulate me at times, and I''ve gotten a spine with her on so many things... but I guess I didn''t WANT to have to HAVE a spine about this. But, I clearly need one, so I''m off to rummage around in the closet to see what I find. LOL.

Neatfreak, yes, what I want is very similar to your wedding. A few people, lots of happiness and love, and much laughter. Some views, some food, and some memories.

She wants An Event. She''s not getting it. Cause you know what? Even if she was going to shell out the 50K for the wedding of her dreams. *I* wouldn''t want to attend. Too much pomp and ceremony. I''ve been to her idea of the perfect wedding, and it''s so different from mine.

 

[largirl]

I just wanted to chime in and say forget about your mom (just in terms of planning the wedding, of course!). I agree with the others who said do it how you want and if she''s not happy, she can deal with it on her own. Just tell her, "I''m sorry you feel that way mom, but the decision is made and we are not going to change it." Since she''s not paying, especially - there''s not anything she can actually do other than whine at you about what she wants. And really, you don''t have to take it! Nor should you! Just because you don''t listen to her does not mean you don''t love her and want her to heal. And she needs to realize that.

I am speaking from third-party experience. I was the MOH at my best friend''s wedding, and her mom absolutely and totally ruined the entire wedding experience for her. What should have been a year of fun planning and anticipation was instead a year of crying and therapy. The wedding day itself means virtually nothing to her, as she barely enjoyed it (other than getting her amazing husband of course). When we were dress shopping her mother advised her against getting the dress she wanted because, "After all, you ARE going to be the biggest one at your wedding, dear!" She said this to the bride, who is maybe a size 12. She took over planning of the entire thing and my poor friend tolerated it because she thought her mother would enjoy it and feel loved - guess what? Five years later she''s still trying to run her life and they are nearing estrangement. She believes that if she had just put her foot down, she would have had a wonderful wedding experience and best case scenario her mother would have backed off - worst case scenario she wouldn''t be any worse off than she is now!

 

[aljdewey]

Layla, can I make a suggestion?

I think you''d find more peace if you stopped trying to provide your mom with ''validation'' behind your choices. As an attorney, I''m sure you''re conditioned to think "well, if I provide enough evidence to support why my choices are sound, a reasonable person would have to agree." Great theory, but no. Manipulative mothers *aren''t* what I''d deem ''reasonable person'' material, so it''s the wrong approach.

If you say "we aren''t doing this because we cannot afford it", that paves the way for her to tell you how you can afford it (change this or that and you''ll be able to afford it).
If you say "no, we didn''t make up a brunch wedding", she''s just going to insist how she''s never heard of it before.
If you say, "this is why I want California", she''s going to try to change the why.

Instead of giving her rationalization for your choices, I''d recommend a different approach. "I''m choosing this because it''s what I want." The reason you aren''t doing a big wedding isn''t because you can''t afford it.....it''s because you don''t want it.

You don''t NEED to justify, validate, or demonstrate the sound reasoning behind your choices. You need to be gently firm and just say "this is what we want, and this is what we''re doing."
If she squawks, you need to get comfortable with a stock, repeatable answer......"It''s nice that you''re trying to help with suggestions, but we''ve already decided on X, and I''m sticking with that."

I agree with others on this: even if you wanted to do every little thing she wanted, she''d still find some inane little thing to find fault with.

You are an adult, and you are making a choice to marry John. HE is your primary family, and you need to prioritize what''s important to you/him above all others. That means mom too.

You can love her without bending to her every desire.

 

[AmberGretchen]

Layla honey, you''ve gotten some stellar advice and it sounds like you will be doing a wonderful job of putting it to work.

I just wanted to chime in with one more thought. I know that I struggled a lot with issues like this when I was planning my wedding, and one thing became very clear to me as the wedding weekend came around. That was that even though lots of people in my life (my mom, my stepmom, my MIL) had strong opinions about how our wedding "should" be, and were not shy about expressing them, we mostly did things our own way, and most of them were able to GET PAST IT, and be TRULY HAPPY for us and enjoy the celebration of our love and marriage that the wedding was intended to be. Those that couldn''t, it was painful, but it was really just a reflection of deeper issues that had been there all along.

I really think that your mother loves you and that she needs to figure out a way to put on her big girl pants and accept that your wedding isn''t about her. Just keep trying to phrase things as "this is what I want, and [perhaps more importantly], this is what WILL MAKE ME AND JOHN HAPPY." Because that''s a lot harder to argue with - she can try to tell you that she knows better than you do what will make you happy, but any reasonable person will see that argument doesn''t hold a lot of water. If she truly can''t set aside her own desires and focus on you, then that speaks to a larger and deeper issue, but one that you have very little control over.

Best of luck with your plans and with dealing with your mom - I''m sure its very hard to put your foot down in this situation but I have every confidence that if you can deal with the hospital and the doctors the way you did, you can and will do this.

 

[Gypsy]

Aljd... Your post really REALLY struck home. I am used to using logic and strong arguements to win points, and do depend on having a ''reasonable'' person as my audience. But you are absolutely right. That''s EXACTLY -- practically VERBATIM-- how these conversations go with my mom. I say X she says Y. She is manipulative, and I''m going to print out your post and keep it with me to remind me of your advice. "This is what I want and what will make me happy, and I don''t have to justify it" is going to be my mantra. No arguing just a very firm position. I can do it, you all are absolutely right. I will have to highlight and underline "It''s nice that you''re trying to help with suggestions, but we''ve already decided on X, and I''m sticking with that." too.

Amber honey, thank you for your thoughtful post. I do believe that when we get closer to the wedding she''ll just be happy. And if she''s not, well, I''ll have to come to terms with the fact that its her problem not mine. But for the time being, I''m working on my own behaviour modification. I think I had to realize that I wasn''t being selfish in wanting my wedding to be the way John and I want it. Which is what my mom was implying.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 10/21/2007 5:49:53 PM
Author: Gypsy
Aljd... Your post really REALLY struck home. I am used to using logic and strong arguements to win points, and do depend on having a ''reasonable'' person as my audience. But you are absolutely right. That''s EXACTLY -- practically VERBATIM-- how these conversations go with my mom. I say X she says Y. She is manipulative, and I''m going to print out your post and keep it with me to remind me of your advice. ''This is what I want and what will make me happy, and I don''t have to justify it'' is going to be my mantra. No arguing just a very firm position. I can do it, you all are absolutely right. I will have to highlight and underline ''It''s nice that you''re trying to help with suggestions, but we''ve already decided on X, and I''m sticking with that.'' too.

You go girl! I love that mantra. That''s what we did with my MIL and it ended up going perfectly. I just got off the phone with her and she''s still in her old slightly manipulative ways, but we didn''t let it get to us on our day, we did things our way, and now she wants to TAKE CREDIT for the way we did things!

But the day was great and we got what we wanted and that is what is important!!

We''ll be here rooting for you!!!

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 10/21/2007 5:49:53 PM
Author: Gypsy
Aljd... Your post really REALLY struck home. I am used to using logic and strong arguements to win points, and do depend on having a ''reasonable'' person as my audience. But you are absolutely right. That''s EXACTLY -- practically VERBATIM-- how these conversations go with my mom. I say X she says Y. She is manipulative, and I''m going to print out your post and keep it with me to remind me of your advice. ''This is what I want and what will make me happy, and I don''t have to justify it'' is going to be my mantra. No arguing just a very firm position. I can do it, you all are absolutely right. I will have to highlight and underline ''It''s nice that you''re trying to help with suggestions, but we''ve already decided on X, and I''m sticking with that.'' too.

Amber honey, thank you for your thoughtful post. I do believe that when we get closer to the wedding she''ll just be happy. And if she''s not, well, I''ll have to come to terms with the fact that its her problem not mine. But for the time being, I''m working on my own behaviour modification. I think I had to realize that I wasn''t being selfish in wanting my wedding to be the way John and I want it. Which is what my mom was implying.

Layla, I''m glad, glad, SO GLAD it helped.

A few footnotes you may want to print out with that......

1. Here''s another phrase I think you should master (for use when she''s pressing for what she thinks you should do/choose): "I know we have different opinions on this. I''m going to go this way with it, and I hope you''ll respect and accept my choice."

2. There is a VERY fine line between ''unselfish'' and ''doormat". In planning one''s own wedding, unselfish should mean being willing to *consider* others in your decision making. It most assuredly does not mean placing a higher priority on their wants than on yours, and it doesn''t mean sacrificing what''s truly important to you.

3. If the difference between selfish and unselfish is "do it my way" or "do it your way".....then gal, THIS is the one day you are ENTITLED to be ''selfish''. Selfish isn''t always a bad trait......it''s actually quite useful for those who aren''t used to EVER putting themselves first. Honey, if you don''t take of you, no one else will. Believe me on that.

4. When pressed for a reason behind your choice, your default answer should be "because that''s what I want and what''s important to me." No justifying, no arguing. "I''ve given my choices much thought, and I hope you''ll honor and respect them."

I KNOW you can do it.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 10/22/2007 1:04:48 PM
Author: aljdewey

Date: 10/21/2007 5:49:53 PM
Author: Gypsy
Aljd... Your post really REALLY struck home. I am used to using logic and strong arguements to win points, and do depend on having a ''reasonable'' person as my audience. But you are absolutely right. That''s EXACTLY -- practically VERBATIM-- how these conversations go with my mom. I say X she says Y. She is manipulative, and I''m going to print out your post and keep it with me to remind me of your advice. ''This is what I want and what will make me happy, and I don''t have to justify it'' is going to be my mantra. No arguing just a very firm position. I can do it, you all are absolutely right. I will have to highlight and underline ''It''s nice that you''re trying to help with suggestions, but we''ve already decided on X, and I''m sticking with that.'' too.

Amber honey, thank you for your thoughtful post. I do believe that when we get closer to the wedding she''ll just be happy. And if she''s not, well, I''ll have to come to terms with the fact that its her problem not mine. But for the time being, I''m working on my own behaviour modification. I think I had to realize that I wasn''t being selfish in wanting my wedding to be the way John and I want it. Which is what my mom was implying.

Layla, I''m glad, glad, SO GLAD it helped.

A few footnotes you may want to print out with that......

1. Here''s another phrase I think you should master (for use when she''s pressing for what she thinks you should do/choose): ''I know we have different opinions on this. I''m going to go this way with it, and I hope you''ll respect and accept my choice.''

2. There is a VERY fine line between ''unselfish'' and ''doormat''. In planning one''s own wedding, unselfish should mean being willing to *consider* others in your decision making. It most assuredly does not mean placing a higher priority on their wants than on yours, and it doesn''t mean sacrificing what''s truly important to you.

3. If the difference between selfish and unselfish is ''do it my way'' or ''do it your way''.....then gal, THIS is the one day you are ENTITLED to be ''selfish''. Selfish isn''t always a bad trait......it''s actually quite useful for those who aren''t used to EVER putting themselves first. Honey, if you don''t take of you, no one else will. Believe me on that.

4. When pressed for a reason behind your choice, your default answer should be ''because that''s what I want and what''s important to me.'' No justifying, no arguing. ''I''ve given my choices much thought, and I hope you''ll honor and respect them.''

I KNOW you can do it.

*Hitting print button while thoughtfully considering where to get this laminated"

Thank you Aljd and neatfreak (lol on the MIL taking credit).

You really have a good bead on this Aljd, one would think you knew my mother. LOL. She''s a PITA she really is. But it''s nice to have her back.

It''s even nicer to have good friends like you all helping me deal with her, cause I''m outa my depth on my own.

laminate, laminate, laminate.

 

[monarch64]

Date: 10/19/2007 2:38:18 PM
Author: decodelighted
She wouldn''t be happy if she got exactly what she wanted. You''re right that there''s no way to ''please'' her. Just stop trying. It really is that simple once you decide to stop trying to please her & once you firmly believe that you have no reason to feel guilty for it. You have to believe it yourself though. We''ll help you believe it.

As to the ''wait a couple more years & save up'' HAHAHAHHHAHHHHAHHAAAHAHAHA. ''Um, MOOOOOM -- we only want to spend X amount: PERIOD!'' You shouldn''t mortgage your future for a one day martyrdom miserable event you don''t even want. Weddings aren''t ''investments'' -- it''s thrown away & not coming back.

You should know by now: you can''t buy your mother''s love & respect. Close the checkbook. And she might just love you anyway.

Once again the Deco has said exactly what I was thinking with her sage and blunt advice. Layla, we all know how much you love your mom and want to make her happy, but really, even if you have the wedding of HER dreams she will still take issue with some part or parts of it and never let you live them down because in the end SOMETHING will happen that displeases her and will make her think she looks bad in front of her friends.

So when does it end? Do you and John have the wedding you two can afford and that will make you both happy? Or do you allow your mother to control all of the wedding planning and spend $50k on it only to hear about how it wasn''t as perfect as it could''ve been for her no matter what? Come on woman, show your mom that strength that we''ve all been witness to and that you KNOW darn well you have inside and have a wedding of you and John, not you and John and your mother. She will still love you, she has no choice, you are her daughter no matter what. She can say horrible things to you, or feel horrible that her friends will look down upon her, or whatever, but that is her prob, not yours and John''s. She can disown you even, but that still doesn''t change the fact that you are her flesh and blood, and that you and John are happy about YOUR wedding.

I hate being blunt or sounding harsh here, but I''ve come to care about you and your well-being as well as your mother''s...perhaps you will be the first person to stand up to her and lead your own life, maybe she will just have to come to terms with that and that may be a very good thing for her. everything happens for a reason.

 

[diamondfan]

Gypsy, I realize that your mom has been ill and that you might feel guilty being firm, but this is about your life. It has nothing to do with loving her or how you feel about her. And you can respect her views and fears about things without making them your own.

You and John have been engaged longer than most marriages last. ENOUGH, do what YOU BOTH want. First, if you do not go to her and tell her things, she cannot comment and get upset. I realize where you were coming from but you know who you are dealing with, so accept it. This is about your lives, merging them after a long time. You have been and are a patient and loving and caring daughter. You do NOT have to give in to her. As others have said, to end this, simply make the plans you want to and then send her an invite. And if she brings it up, nicely but firmly change the topic. EACH and every time. She cannot converse about it without your help. Just tell her, thanks, mom, it is all under control. Second, since she has been so ill and nearly died, you might gently point out to her that there are more important things than other people''s opinions of your wedding. It sounds like she is one who likes to critique, and you are now the bearer of all of that in her mind. I do not know Persian culture that well, though I grew up in Beverly Hills so I had many Iranian friends. Sadly, I also know a lot of snobs. I can be a bit of a snob in terms of how people treat others, manners, etc. but not about what others choose to do for special events. I might have an opinion or dislike something, but as a guest it really has nothing to do with me. And, I know that I have the freedom to do things the way I want to when it is my turn for an event. So, just keep telling your mother that in the scheme of it all, after 8 years, what really matters is this great guy you are marrying and to leave all of the details to you...after all, she raised you, so she should trust your judgement, no?

 

[Gypsy]

Thank you Monnie and Diamondfan.

When I was on the east coast it was a LOT easier to stand up to her. And even THEN the wedding was a problem. So I''ll be honest, the thought of this wedding gives me a raw tearing feeling in the pit of my stomach. But all of the posts in this thread have really helped with that, a lot. And so has John.I think you all are right, confrontation isn''t the way to go about this. Although it''s my preferred way to resolve issues, this one isn''t an issue that''s responded well to head on negotiating. So I have to accept that negotiation might just fail with this.

Some history and reflection to follow:

When we booked the Mark Hopkins, without telling her, my mom was very hurt. Then, out of guilt I included her in the detials of the planning and she turned controlling... there is a conversation about filet mignon that will live on in infamy in John''s and my memory... not to mention the ''naked chair'' debacle *shudder*. And I want to avoid all of that.

I''m a good planner. I''m good with getting a value for the money I spend. And I''m very competent at designing, envisioning, negotiting and structuring events. All skills I have learned from my mother and my family, as in my family every occasion seems to be a three ring circus with caterers and florists... etc. So she should trust me. I trust myself to be able to come up with something that makes me happy, within budget.

I''m not the daughter my mom wants in terms of being social, and I realized some time ago that I won''t be. And my mom and I, when I first moved back to CA, had a long discussion about my boundaries regarding dinner parties and events and my compelled attendance of the same. And she did FINALLY get the clue that she has to respect the fact that dinner parties twice a week are not my idea of fun, and that I won''t be at her beck and call to attend the stupid things.

I think this is an extension of that... she kept saying that it was a once in a lifetime event and that didn''t I want it to be fabulous? But well, my mom is superficial, god love her, so for her fabulous is big, and splashy, and OBVIOUSLY expensive... awe-inspiring... with people talking about the event at every wedding there after and drawing comparisions. And that''s what she wanted in a son-in-law too... a drop dead gorgeous multi-millionaire that would make her friend''s son in laws pale in comparision. Life is a bit fo a competition for my mom. (DF you should recognize that from the Beverly Hills persians you knew).

I dropped out of the race a long time ago, which was a bit hard for me as I felt I was an odd duck, and that there was something wrong with me. But the truth of the matter is I prefer sincerity to the appearance of the same. I prefer intimate events over huge fabulous ones, and I prefer my John, with all his bread winning flaws, to any of the (many) rich handsome men my family has introduced me to.

But my mom doesn''t see the connection... she doesn''t see how it''s all related. She doesn''t see how BECAUSE I am more introverted, how because I prefer intimate friendships and a smaller number of close friends to a large number of acquiantances, how because I value sincerity over appearances (all things she knows, but well, can''t help trying to change about me) ... I want a small intimate SINCERE wedding focused on what is most important to ME... John and myself. The hiccup for her is that she keeps thinking I''m HER, and that therefore, I would want what she wants.

My mom, frequently doesn''t see me for who I am... and when she does, she can''t help trying to change what she sees. Not because she DOESN''T love me, but because she DOES love me and she''s convinced I''ll be so much happier if I change and become the person she wants me to be.

It''s all very screwed up, honestly.

I haven''t at all talked to her about the wedding since that converstation, and she hasn''t brought it up, thankfully, which is giving me time to speak to you all and to get my head straight before it comes up again. All of your thoughts and your encouragement have been very helpful.

I do think, in my heart of hearts, that before I can feel comfortable with the stonewalling, and the planning in silence, then sending her an invitation, which I am afraid will foster ill will... I''m might try one more talk because just typing all this out here made me realize a couple of things.

When I DO talk to my mom and we discuss how different I am from her, and how different my expectations are for certain things, she does see reason usually-- or at least she has in the past. It just usually takes me forcing her to really see ME, as opposed to anything else. So, as naive as it may seem, I still have a little hope that she''ll come around, if I explain it to her like this (I can hear all of you banging your heads against the wall). I want to tell her: this is what I want, and I want you to accept it as it makes me happy.

And if she doesn''t see reason on this, at least I''ll have tried eveything I know how, and can move on to plan B) which is planning it and send her an invitation with a clear conscience. I don''t know if I can do that just now.

Maybe not though. I can see the futility of it all just typing it... I''ll have to talk to John and see what he thinks. If I should have another conversation with her, if the subject comes up... or not. He''s very good at judging these things-- and I''m not so much because I''m still torn. Thank you all for your sage advice.

You''ve made me realize I''m not being unreasonable, and that she IS being manipulative, and that I don''t have to feel guilty for wanting my wedding to be enjoyable for ME. Monnie, I care about you too, and I don''t want you to think that I haven''t stood up to her. She REALLY REALLY disliked John for the longest time and tried to sabatoge things between us, and I really fought for years about that, and about other things. I think it''s just the stupid sentimentality of the wedding, this fairytale idea I have that my mom and I will be happily pouring over color swatches and so forth that I have to ditch. DF-- you are absolutely right, we have been together for longer than many couples have been married, and ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. We are, come heck or highwater, getting married in 2008.

And I''m really leaning toward a May wedding, in my mind. And we WILL go to Carmel the week before thankgiving and scope out places we consider as possibilities for our small wedding-- regardless of what mom what think of them. I won''t cave on the small wedding, I absolutely do NOT want a large wedding. So either she sees reason, and sees ME... or she doesn''t and then-- if she brings it up, I WILL nicely but firmly change the topic....

Either way, we''ll get our wedding-- our way.

 

[cara]

Carmel... the Highlands Inn? OK that would be the stunning setting your mother was looking for and a smaller setting that you were looking for but what I meant to write was...

So I read this book on dealing with difficult parents, and even though it was mainly designed for difficult elderly parents, there was a lot in it that helped me in dealing with my late middle-aged parents, when they got divorced recently and showed a lot of uglier/less ideal sides of themselves to me.

One is that you have to recognize the patterns of interactions you have with your parents and take active steps to avoid disturbing/upsetting conversations.

For me this was really hard, because I''d always respected and been able to talk with my parents about many things, but I realized that I had to actively step back from certain topics and NOT let them talk about certain things, even if I really wanted the information or the conversation. If every conversation on the topic left me upset and miserable for weeks, I had to actively take steps to avoid those topics and set limits with my parents on what we could discuss.

The other is that you have to be OK with not meeting unreasonable demands, even if it means letting your parent down and them being deeply disappointed. Father wants me to stop talking to mother? Not OK. Mother wants you to have her idea of a fabulous wedding and anything else is an insult to her? Also not OK.

So my advice is really similar to aljdeweys and others, about not justifying your choices or expecting your mother''s approval, but I''ll just state it a little differently:

First is not to expect your mother to be different from herself. And while you may, may be able to convince her that you are an introvert and the wedding that is appropriate for you is a small brunch affair, please look at her history of behavior around your wedding planning to evaluate how likely that is. You should expect your mother to be your mother, and for her to want a fabulous affair and to manipulate and guilt you to get her way and make you miserable otherwise, as that seems to be her history?

Second is to take active steps to avoid upsetting discussions. Its really hard for a girl not to have her mother behind her while planning a wedding, but you might not. If your mother stays true to her form, you need to NOT seek her approval for anything, as that just draws her in and gives her the right to object to your preferences. Along with that is obviously not telling her details or justifying your actions, as then she can argue the merits with you.

The last is the hardest. You need to realize that your desire for your own less flashy wedding with John is quite reasonable, and that you are a good person in going ahead with your own plans, even if your mother is made miserable by it and claims you have ruined and shamed her. And while it is horrible to say, at some point you need to be OK with a mother acting miserable and shamed, knowing that she is doing it to herself by having unreasonable expectations and that you are not a bad daughter for having your own style of wedding.