What really is "eye-clean"?

[Lal]

We purchased my engagement ring from a pricescope vendor about a month ago and are extremely happy with its performance. It''s an SI1 and we were told it was "eye-clean".

I haven''t been able to see the inclusion with my eyes...until today. What changed? I am fairly near-sighted and today I decided to look at the diamond without my corrective lenses. When I put the diamond about 4 inches away from my face, I can see the inclusion from the table top. With my lenses, I can''t find it.

From pricescope, there seems to be so many definitions of "eye-clean" out there (depending on distance, what angle you are looking at the diamond, and apparently who''s eyes are looking at it). Is there any consensus on this?

 

[oldminer]

You have the definition right before you. If you cannot see the inclusion without magnification and have normal vision, it is "eye clean". If you need special magnifiers, a dirty stone, or a special technique, then it is not "eye clean".

Of course, sellers are way less likely to see the obvious and cautious buyers are much more able to see the invisible. This is how one haggles over quality and then prices.

You also may have the classic "eye-cleanish" diamond. This is one where all dealers see the marks and no buyers see them right away... Perfect until the sale is finished and you really start looking.

Anyway, you may have an "eye-cleanish" one after all.

 

[glitterata]

Okay, off topic a bit, but here's a question for all you ophthalmologists out there. (Please admire my spelling.)

I read Lal's question and decided to take a look at my diamond without my glasses. I have one nearsighted eye and one very astigmatic eye. With my nearsighted eye, I was able to focus on the stone much closer without my glasses than with them. (I didn't see any inclusions, but I didn't expect to, since it's a VS1.) With my astigmatic eye, I couldn't focus on the stone at all. No surprise there. But when I brought it very close to my astigmatic eye, I saw a reflection of the building out the window--and every detail was as sharp as if I was wearing my glasses. Normally without my glasses, the whole world's a blur. Why was it sharp reflected in my diamond?

Maybe I should have some glasses made out of diamonds.

 

[Brian Knox]

"I haven't been able to see the inclusion with my eyes...until today. What changed?"

Simply cleaning the diamond is likely to make the inclusion "disappear"

This is real common with SI clarity diamonds.

 

[moremoremore]

but dave...what the heck is eye cleanish....isn't an Si1 supposed to always be eye clean to the naked eye (assuming it's not an emerald?) Guess not. Then what's the value of the GIA Si1 grade?

 

[Shay37]

Lal, I used to work for an optometrist. Near sightedness is what happens when the eye without correction magnifies everything. Hence your eyes were "louping" your diamond. Try this experiment. Try to look through a window screen without your glasses. The screen should look huge and make viewing what's on the other side quite difficult.

Shay

 

[Pair0Ducks]

Glitterata, I'm willing to bet you were seeing a reflection of the building in your diamond THROUGH a screen. I don't think it was the diamond at all but rather the screen which made the building clear.

The screen accomplishes what is known as the pinhole test. Have you ever seen a shadow of a tree cast through a screen? It is eerie because the shadow is razor sharp when you are used to seeing blurry edges.

Either that or the diamond accomplished the pinhole itself by being a small facet. The reflected light is very narrow and can enter your eye straight on. When it does this your lens needs to do very little to focus it as it is all directed at one spot on your retina already. Thus your usual defect is "bypassed".

Hope it helps. Interesting phenomenon though.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I tell my customers to make their own judgement about eye clean.

Most people know more about their eyesight than they do about diamonds. If someone says their eyesight is really great then they should not go below SI1 unless it is a dissemniated SI2

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 5/22/2004 5:27:35 PM Shay37 wrote:

Lal, I used to work for an optometrist. Near sightedness is what happens when the eye without correction magnifies everything. Hence your eyes were 'louping' your diamond. Try this experiment. Try to look through a window screen without your glasses. The screen should look huge and make viewing what's on the other side quite difficult.

Shay----------------

Shay, quite fascinating. I thought it was the other way around. As my corrective lenses become corrective, stuff seems smaller & smaller when I put my lenses in. That, coupled w/ some increasing presbyopia (sp?), I can't even see my stone close up. But, w/o my lenses, when i tilt my stone, I definitely see the little cystals.

 

[glitterata]

----------------
On 5/22/2004 5:40:32 PM Pair0Ducks wrote:

Glitterata, I'm willing to bet you were seeing a reflection of the building in your diamond THROUGH a screen. I don't think it was the diamond at all but rather the screen which made the building clear.


The screen accomplishes what is known as the pinhole test. Have you ever seen a shadow of a tree cast through a screen? It is eerie because the shadow is razor sharp when you are used to seeing blurry edges.


Either that or the diamond accomplished the pinhole itself by being a small facet. The reflected light is very narrow and can enter your eye straight on. When it does this your lens needs to do very little to focus it as it is all directed at one spot on your retina already. Thus your usual defect is 'bypassed'.


Hope it helps. Interesting phenomenon though.----------------

PairODucks,

Nope, no screen. It must be explanation #2--reflection off a small facet. I just spent a facinating few minutes looking at things through pinholes. It seems to work better with the astigmatic eye than with the nearsighted one. Very entertaining--thank you!

 

[Lal]

----------------
On 5/22/2004 5:27:35 PM Shay37 wrote:

Lal, I used to work for an optometrist. Near sightedness is what happens when the eye without correction magnifies everything. Hence your eyes were 'louping' your diamond. Try this experiment. Try to look through a window screen without your glasses. The screen should look huge and make viewing what's on the other side quite difficult.

Shay----------------

Ok, so if my near-sighted eyes are acting like magnifiers then I can see "better" when I place the object closer to my eye than someone with normal vision? So..although I can see the inclusion close up, someone with normal vision should not?

 

[aljdewey]

A missing element of the "eyeclean" you are asking about.....eyeclean typically means that you won't see inclusions with the naked eye when viewing it from the top down AND when viewing from a normal viewing distance.




People tend to forget that if your eyeball is almost *touching* the diamond.....that's *not* normal viewing distance.

Normal viewing distance is about 10-12 inches away.

 

[WinkHPD]

----------------
On 5/22/2004 5:25:01 PM moremoremore wrote:

but dave...what the heck is eye cleanish....isn't an Si1 supposed to always be eye clean to the naked eye (assuming it's not an emerald?) Guess not. Then what's the value of the GIA Si1 grade?----------------

This is a common misconception about GIA grading, that the grade somehow has something to do with eye visibility.

GIA has repeatedly made statements that the grades have to do with the quantity, the size and the locations of the inclusions as seen under 10x mgnification. That having been said, usually you will not see inclusions in the SI stones, but it is definately possible to do so. I have seen GIA stones, particularly larger stones where it was easily possible to see inclusions on the edges of VS2 stones.

As for eye cleanish, it is a great descriptive term. This is a stone that has eye visible inclusions that are very hard to find or to see under normal conditions. Many I1 stones are eye cleanish and they can be tremendous bargains for someone on a tight budget.

Wink

 

[oldminer]

Wink: I agree that a stone with "difficult" to see inclusions has the potential to be a superb stone for some buyers. Eye-clean and Eye-cleanish are very much dealer terms and not related to GIA clarity grading terminology.
While these terms can be used fairly with customers, many mis-use these terms to trick less than observant buyers. This is why I warn consumers about being careful. Dealers know what they are doing and consumers generally can be tricked if they are not very observant and cautious.

We all love impulsive buyers and being impulsive from time to time is enjoyable. When buying a very expensive diamond, one should put their impulsive nature away for a short time and learn the product instead.

There is nothing inherently wrong with describing a diamond as eye-clean or eye-cleanish when that is actually the exact case.

 

[moremoremore]

Oye. Holy misconception. I'm quite nervous now about the si1 I bought (don't have it yet)...That really stinks...this is a good thread..I think a lot of us out there (ok, me) thought that a GIA si1 meant that you really can't ever see it face up...

 

[WinkHPD]

----------------
On 5/23/2004 9:23:57 AM oldminer wrote:

Wink: I agree that a stone with 'difficult' to see inclusions has the potential to be a superb stone for some buyers. Eye-clean and Eye-cleanish are very much dealer terms and not related to GIA clarity grading terminology.

While these terms can be used fairly with customers, many mis-use these terms to trick less than observant buyers. This is why I warn consumers about being careful. Dealers know what they are doing and consumers generally can be tricked if they are not very observant and cautious.


We all love impulsive buyers and being impulsive from time to time is enjoyable. When buying a very expensive diamond, one should put their impulsive nature away for a short time and learn the product instead.


There is nothing inherently wrong with describing a diamond as eye-clean or eye-cleanish when that is actually the exact case.----------------

Dave,

I am in complete accord with you about that. When I sell such a stone it is always with a look through the scope first to show the client where the inclusion is (assuming an in house client of course) then letting them look with the unaided eye. I just sold an incredible GIA papered 1.03ct F-I1 H&A cut stone for less than $3,000. My client was exstatic, and yes, she was there with him. She prefered it over a smaller .75ct stone for the same money because it was "SO BEAUTIFUL and SOOO BIG!" Even after I showed them the stone in the microscope, they could not see the colorless inclusions with the eye.

Wink

 

[moremoremore]

if vendors what people to be able to take a very good like while in the stores, they should get rid of those horrible overhead lights...and some chairs would be nice too...lol

It's hard to really take a good look at a diamond when the lights are glaring from above and you can't sit!

 

[WinkHPD]

You'ld love my place then. Small office on the second floor of a downtown Boise office building. We sit and pass gems back and forth across the desk and look through the microscope. I am definitely not your every day walk in jeweler.

Wink

P.S. Here is a shot from Christmas a couple of years ago. Envelopes on the wall are jobs waiting for findings. The stones are in different envelopes in the safe, but keeping an envelope on the wall keeps it from getting out of site, out of mind. No time to worry about how your office looks during Christmas.

 

[moremoremore]

LOL....those envelopes are making me drool...Actually, I think that that would be a very comfortable place to view diamonds and also, the lighting looks perfect so as to get a good look at a stone!

 

[WinkHPD]

Thanks. When clients come in I push paper off to one side or the other and bring the microscope up from under the desk. You can see the camera stand in the background, and I can put your ring/stones in it and show them to you live at up to about 30x then click for a picture if you like. We have a lot of fun there and if you have the time we play with what ever happens to be in the safe at the time. I do not even own a display case, every thing is taken lovingly out of the safe and restored there when we are done.

For lighting we have fluorescent lights and incandescent lights in the office, both of which can be individually turned on and off. Then we go into the hall for dim lights, and out onto the street for natural daylight. There is a wonderful big old tree for shade and then of course if you have your dark glasses we can step into the direct sun.

I always encourage my clients, whether here or on the net, to look at their stones in MANY different kinds of light. When you can stand facing into the corner and your stone is still gathering the little light left and glowing at you, then you know it is ready to wear out into the real world. If you look at your stone in many lights, then you will not buy something that will having you singing the "It Looked Better In The Store" blues.

Wink

 

[Shay37]

Lal, that should be a fair statement. If you have to take your glasses off, and put the diamond up to your eye to see your inclusion, (four inches away) then most people from a normal viewing distance won't be able to see your inclusion either. Remember, you're always your own worst critic. Most people will simply see a really beautiful diamond.

Shay

 

[valeria101]

Wow Mr. Jones

I always considered as a pleasant perk to be taken out of the designer-ish store into the jeweler's "back office" for a chat and a hands-on approach to beautiful things... It sounds like this is the default treatment for all your customers

However, this wasn't what I wanted to post on this thread (prior to the picture!). It sounds amazing to me why anyone would not trust THEIR vision for judging wether a diamond is "eye clean". Some sellers would just say "inclusions do not detract"... Isn't this phrase "eye clean" an invitation for the buyer to judge? GIA's clarity grades are great for pricing, and so-so for buying, especially if one is not into "buying rarity" but diamonds.


After this thread it may be clear what exactly teh "consensus" is about

Good enough Lal?