More websites offering ASETs!

[Gypsy]

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/search?shape=Cushion,Asscher&vp=0


So on many of their cushions this site has ASETs listed. Promising. Wishing they'd expand that to asschers.

Thier cut scores are bogus and they call a bunch of stones "ideal" that aren't. So still a work in progress. But the posted ASETs are great.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I saw that today, too, Gypsy. I am always a little cautious at first about newly posted vendors that have no track record. I guess there are outside sources to check reviews, though. But posting ASETs is good, and it also indicates to me that they want to get some PS business since most of the world doesn't really know to ask for ASETs.

 

[chrono]

Did anyone see how long their review/return policy is? Also note the quote below:
+WHY ARE SOME DIAMONDS FINAL SALE?
Diamonds coming from overseas (mostly India, Israel, Belgium, and Hong Kong) are considered final sale. These are some of the finest cut diamonds in the world, at the best values. They are final sale due to high import/export duties, in addition to the fact that we don't hold inventory. Selling diamonds as final sale allows us to price them as low as possible.

 

[OoohShiny]

Hmmm.

 

[Karl_K]

They are diamcalc images.
There are major wholesalers who offer srn files, gem files, and or DC generated images.
I suspect that's where the images are coming from.

 

[emmebee]

Agreed that any time vendors can offer ASETs up front is a great benefit to consumers!

 

[noscrusir]

I've talked to the people from Enchanted Diamonds before when I was doing my search. They are drop-shippers who hold no inventory and many of their sales are final since they come from overseas. Unfortunately, many of the overseas diamonds do NOT come with ASETs so it's truly a risk. They had some nice looking cushions but I just wasn't comfortable since they were unable to provide an ASET and it was final-sale.

They claimed that they have the largest virtual inventory behind Blue Nile and their prices are pretty competitive. However, their salespeople sounded less-than knowledgeable and I get the impression they were just trying to make a sale. I'd say buy at your own risk. Keep in mind too that reputable vendors like GOG actually offer price-matching and in many cases, can bring in the actual diamond for visual inspection & create a video. This does not apply however to diamonds that are sourced overseas. Nice website though and it at least provides more visual options for consumers!

 

[Rockdiamond]

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/search?shape=Cushion,Asscher&vp=0


So on many of their cushions this site has ASETs listed. Promising. Wishing they'd expand that to asschers.

Thier cut scores are bogus and they call a bunch of stones "ideal" that aren't. So still a work in progress. But the posted ASETs are great.

Interesting Gypsy- so in your opinion as long as a company is showing ASET, their other policies don't matter?
This is not a comment about the seller mentioned, rather a general question.
I think you're taking consumer's eyes away from the ball they should be looking at.

 

[MelisendeDiamonds]

Did anyone see how long their review/return policy is? Also note the quote below:
+WHY ARE SOME DIAMONDS FINAL SALE?
Diamonds coming from overseas (mostly India, Israel, Belgium, and Hong Kong) are considered final sale. These are some of the finest cut diamonds in the world, at the best values. They are final sale due to high import/export duties, in addition to the fact that we don't hold inventory. Selling diamonds as final sale allows us to price them as low as possible.

I would like to know one vendor Pricescope or otherwise who pulls in stones from overseas with no risk or cost to the consumer?
Perhaps there are some that only require a non refundable deposit and it isn't final sale but otherwise I think this is quite a common policy.

Most refuse to call in virtual stones from overseas and those that do will want to lock you in to cover their costs of shipping and insurance.

We have seen a continuing trend of cutting houses providing more information with their offerings, this will continue to be the case and I think more and more this will become mandatory which is great for consumers. It will also make it even harder for B&M only businesses trying to compete with internet offerings.

 

[chrono]

I only recommend purchasing from vendors who offer a generous no questions asked full return/refund on the diamond, regardless of where the diamond is pulled from (in-house or virtual). I cannot in good conscience recommend a diamond to anyone where the sale is final because who knows whether the proposal might not turn out as planned or the diamond isn't the right one or whatever other reason it might be.

 

[biker2035]

I chatted with this company last night for quite some time and then posted a ASET on a cushion that I am interested in that seems to have led to this discussion. "Joshua", was very friendly, answering the million questions I had and seemed to be very knowledgeable. Some questions did go unanswered, but it was also between 10-11 at night NYC time and we were going through the sites chat screen. HE said that they are brokers and have no stones in house. I used a different search site and the same stone was listed by two other companies as well, they did not have the ASET to go along with it though like this site.

There is a review of them that was quite bad, and then some time later another review by the same company that stated the company had made numerous changes that were very positive. As a consumer I thought it was well written.

http://niceice.com/enchanted-diamonds-cast-spell-nice-ice/

 

[Jonathan_Las-Diamond_Expert]

Hi all! If you'd allow me to chime in here, I believe I can provide clarity and clear up whatever confusion or misunderstanding there seems to be.

I'm Jon Las, one of the founders of https://enchanteddiamonds.com/. I was excited to discover this discussion, as it presents a great opportunity to chat with the people who really matter, you, the diamond buying public, while also letting me share more about Enchanted Diamonds and alleviate any concerns.

Let me hit the main points from the top of the post, I'll try my best to be brief:

Gypsy - You're absolutely right. We've made a concerted effort to prove the largest selection of diamonds with hd videos, ASET, Idealscope, and hearts & arrows images. We think it's a no-brainer to give customers as much information, data, videos, and images as possible. Enchanted Diamonds is committed to giving customers all the information they need to buy confidently. We are working with an increasing number of suppliers who are happy to provide more data, videos, and images of their stones.

We recently entered a partnership with Sarine Technologies. With the Sarine Light (http://youtu.be/AVv86NaJihE?list=UU_d6wz8oJG2_WG-TQ-heAJw) and Sarine Loupe (http://youtu.be/4kewyBg-MA0?list=UUsy9J9jpYg7BMI2XzfdCibQ), customers will be able to view and evaluate diamonds like never before.

Our cut score is not bogus. It was created to give the average customer a score that approximates how a trained gemologist would grade the stone, not to completely replace the way GIA grades diamonds. If you prefer a specific cut of diamond, that's great, you probably have the knowledge necessary to pore over GIA certs to find what you're looking for, and our sales team will help you do that too. But if you're just trying to quickly weed out diamonds that will likely be dull and lifeless, this can be a very helpful tool.

diamondseeker2006 - We're not that new. While Enchanted Diamonds has officially been around for just 3 years, my family and my partner Joshua's family, have been in the diamond and jewelry industry for more than 4 generations. And of course we want PS business, we love interacting with the most educated and discerning buyers, it makes our job much easier (in most cases ).

Chrono - Our return policy is 30-days, no questions asked, and we provide complimentary shipping both ways. As of this post we have 171,648 diamonds available with a 30-day return policy. To find our final sale loose diamonds, one must select the "wholesale" option in search. So these stones marked "Final Sale" are opt-in by customers, and we always make sure any customer who opts in understands this policy clearly.

Karl_K - We rely on our suppliers for the ASET and IdealScope images we display. We try our best to remove any and all instances where we believe the image is a computer representation and not the actual stone.

noscrusir - We NEVER drop-ship. I repeat Enchanted Diamonds NEVER drop ships. This strict policy ensures the quality and authenticity of every item we sell. Every stone is inspected by our in-house gemologist before being shipped to a customer or entering jewelry production.

Like the other retailers mentioned, we too offer a Price Match guarantee (https://enchanteddiamonds.com/price_match). We also offer a Showroom option enabling customers to come to our NYC office for a diamond consultation. Our 30-day return policy also affords customers a worry-free inspection period. We will also send customers as many images and videos as we are able to get out hands on!

Hope this help. Please let me know if you have any further questions, I'm happy to continue this discussion.

 

[MelisendeDiamonds]

I only recommend purchasing from vendors who offer a generous no questions asked full return/refund on the diamond, regardless of where the diamond is pulled from (in-house or virtual). I cannot in good conscience recommend a diamond to anyone where the sale is final because who knows whether the proposal might not turn out as planned or the diamond isn't the right one or whatever other reason it might be.

Than you would recommend no pricescope vendors if the stone originates from an overseas supplier like an Israeli or Indian supplier. In other words you would never recommend a virtual stone from overseas.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that this company is being transparent about overseas virtual stones as opposed to many other vendors who will list overseas stones but when the customer asks for them to be called in they discourage the choice and suggest alternatives. If the customer persists they must either pay in full non refundable or prior to calling in the stone pay a non refundable deposit.

 

[Rockdiamond]

HI Jonathan,
Welcome to PS!!
About the cut grade- is it your statement that one can assess cut accurately based solely on a GIA report?

 

[Jonathan_Las-Diamond_Expert]

Rockdiamond , thank you for the warm greeting!

No, I don't think one can assess cut accurately based solely on a GIA report. I think it's a good start and a great way to narrow your search at the onset. I think for most diamonds buyers, you should ONLY be looking at GIA Excellent stones. In certain circumstances we will be more lenient on Polish or Symmetry in the VG range (primarily fancy shapes).

I can't in good faith recommend any diamond below Excellent. We primarily focus on GIA stones, as it's the most reliable, however, we also find AGS to be accurate for ideal cut stones, and have been impressed by the recent improvements by HRD in Europe. We can not recommend EGL (both USA and International) or IGI, as we've seen some really upsetting discrepancies with each.

The reason I don't think a GIA report is enough is due to the wide range of proportions and variety one can find within a single GIA cut grade. Not all GIA triple Ex's are created equally. The difference in physical appearance of the top 1% of GIA triple Ex diamonds versus the bottom 1% of GIA triple Ex's can be significant. We believe diamond buyers need to understand this.

Our cut score aims to help you further refine and narrow your search. It also serves to help differentiate between diamonds that on paper (Laboratory Certificate) appear the same.

We follow a simple rule at Enchanted Diamonds: IT'S ALL IN THE MAKE

The make, or the cut, is EVERYTHING. That's what our cut score is about.

 

[Rockdiamond]

You're welcome Jonathan- it's a "tough room" but I think you'll find it very informative and fun.

Let me give you my perspective- and how I think consumers would be advised here on PS.
Any site offering a cut grade on Fancy Shaped diamonds is leading consumers to believe there is such a thing.
Aside from AGSL, there is no cut grade for Fancy Shapes.
SO- if someone comes on PS and mentioned that they saw an "excellent cut grade" cushion, there would be a lot of questions.
A common myth which is dispelled here frequently is the confusing of Polish /Symmetry grades on the GIA report for a cut grade.

Therefore the best advice to give a diamond shopper is that anyone claiming a cut grade for a fancy shaped diamond is providing an arbitrary ( meaningless) cut grade.
For this reason, knowledgeable shoppers will ignore cut grades not based on a GIA or AGSL report.
This is most likely the reasoning behind Gypsy's comment.

Just my .02cents

 

[Gypsy]

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/search?shape=Cushion,Asscher&vp=0


So on many of their cushions this site has ASETs listed. Promising. Wishing they'd expand that to asschers.

Thier cut scores are bogus and they call a bunch of stones "ideal" that aren't. So still a work in progress. But the posted ASETs are great.

Interesting Gypsy- so in your opinion as long as a company is showing ASET, their other policies don't matter?
This is not a comment about the seller mentioned, rather a general question.
I think you're taking consumer's eyes away from the ball they should be looking at.

Wow. Way to put words in my mouth. I have never said or even implied it.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Welcome, Jonathan! Very nice to meet you! I don't usually recommend drop shippers for diamonds, but I am very encouraged by one who offers magnified photos of stones and ASETs or Idealscope images. Thanks for clarifying the return policy as well. I think that is fine as long as it is clear which diamonds are excluded.

 

[Gypsy]

Jonathan, thank you for the clarifications. But I am going to disagree with your defense of your cut grading system. I will take back "bogus" if it offends but I will replace it with 'misleading', at best, at least as it pertains to cushions. I am not going to go and critique it with respect to each shape I don't have the time or patience. But as cushions are hard to find, and I did already look through your cushions, based on your cut system and WOW did I see a ton of poorly performing stones and badly faceted stones in the 95% and up range. And I mean some serious dogs.

Lab reports tell you nothing helpful with fancies when it comes to cut. That depends on faceting and performance. So I do not see how any stone with an ASET as bad as those below: gets anything in the 95-100% range. That's why I called it bogus at first, and why I am amending it to misleading now. THESE stones get a 100% from your in house grading system.
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Cushion/GIA-Certified-1,0-Carat-I-Color-SI1-Clarity-Diamond-TMXWBE
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Cushion/GIA-Certified-1,92-Carat-J-Color-SI1-Clarity-Diamond-JJDP9M
Someone would think these would be a great performers... when clearly they both have a lot of leakage under the table and the faceting leave a lot of be desired. I could give it both of them 70%-75%.
Here's another 100%:
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Cushion/GIA-Certified-1,52-Carat-D-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-9Y9MW1 This one is better than the last. But I'd still only give it an 85% MAYBE a 90% considering the faceting plot but a 100%! Nope.
Here's a 96: https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Cushion/GIA-Certified-3,01-Carat-F-Color-VS1-Clarity-Diamond-S5TEV1 Leakage galore under the table. REALLY? This gets a 96?

I tried to find ONE stone I would actually recommend someone buy with your in house grading system that had an ASET and sticking to 95% and better and COULD NOT. The only way I was able to find stone that were good performers is by using my eyes to pick out faceting that was even and attractive and pictures that showed even brightness.

That lead me to this stone (the FIRST stone I found that had promise): https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Cushion/GIA-Certified-5,51-Carat-I-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-3R7Z6U It's a beauty. I would give this one a 97% personally.
AND YET! It only receives 93.7% by whatever formula you are using.



So WHATEVER your system is, as I said with respect to cushions it gets an F, frankly. So I would recommend you go back to the drawing board and actually USE the tools you have (ASETs) and have your gemologists LOOK at the stones and assign grades based on that, instead of by whatever formula is being used now.

And I also object to the use of the word "ideal" as misleading in your cut grading as well. The only stones that are "ideal" are AGS0 stones. Anything with an excellent better be a GIA Ex. And since GIA ONLY grades rounds for cut and NOT cushions and so forth... Excellent, especially by formula is MISLEADING for fancies.

JA used to also grade their fancies for cut based on their in house formulas. That too was a total mess. On recommendation of this forum, and exactly for the reason that it is misleading, they stopped doing so.

B2C also has an in house cut grading system for fancies. It is also frankly inaccurate. Great stones get rated Very Good, and poor stones get graded excellent there. I would also advise them to stop grading their fancies for cut because they do not do a good job of it.

So you see this is not a problem unique to you, or one that we have not seen before. I suggest that instead of getting defensive you take the constructive criticism offered and make changes so when posters, like me, go to recommend stones from your site we don't have to say "ignore the in house grading system, it's useless." because frankly that's what I would have to do now. And I would be justified, as I have explained WHY I feel this way above.

Okay?

 

[Gypsy]

More examples.
This stone for some unknown reason gets only a 72.5%:
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Cushion/GIA-Certified-3,01-Carat-I-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-MCNCDN
I am going to bet that if you got an ASET it would show that this stone is much better than ANY Of the 100% stones I posted above. Please post an ASET.

This stone gets an 86: https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Cushion/GIA-Certified-3,01-Carat-G-Color-SI1-Clarity-Diamond-AN2CUU It will have some leakage/obstruction under the table, sure. But I am also going to bet this one is going to out perform your 100%'s above if you get an ASET.

And this stone is FANTASTIC!!! I WOULD give it a 100%:
https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/Cushion/GIA-Certified-2,16-Carat-E-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-9U9K32
And it gets a WHOPPING 93%.



See. Misleading at best.

 

[WinkHPD]

I had a nice talk about your company with Todd Gray from NiceIce.com a few days ago. He told me that he gave your company a horrible review and that he was then asked for suggestions and that many, if not most, of them were implemented and that now he was able to recommend diamonds from your site.

Todd can be abrasive to those who are not, in his opinion, playing nicely with others. That he is now comfortable recommending you speaks loudly about your willingness to learn the Internet game and to play nicely with others.

I suspect that it will take a little while for people here to get to know you, but I also suspect that you will do well with the attitude you have shown to Todd and your willingness to enter into the discussion here. I have not personally made time to go to your site yet, but I promise, I will.

Welcome aboard the PriceScope train. It has been for some time, and I suspect that it will continue to be the best educational diamond forum on the planet. I hope you will come to play often and share the benefits of your several generations of diamond knowledge. You can expect some lively conversations and will need a thick skin at times, but this place is addictive to us diamond lovers.

Wink

 

[Karl_K]

Karl_K - We rely on our suppliers for the ASET and IdealScope images we display. We try our best to remove any and all instances where we believe the image is a computer representation and not the actual stone.

I checked about 20 cushions and did not find one with an actual ASET image.
They were all computer generated.

edit: just checked 10 rounds all computer generated ASET images as well as h&a images for those that had them.

 

[Gypsy]

Karl_K - We rely on our suppliers for the ASET and IdealScope images we display. We try our best to remove any and all instances where we believe the image is a computer representation and not the actual stone.

I checked about 20 cushions and did not find one with an actual ASET image.
They were all computer generated.

edit: just checked 10 rounds all computer generated ASET images as well as h&a images for those that had them.

Some, not all, of the cushions I posted do have actual, not generated, ASETs.

 

[Karl_K]

Karl_K - We rely on our suppliers for the ASET and IdealScope images we display. We try our best to remove any and all instances where we believe the image is a computer representation and not the actual stone.

I checked about 20 cushions and did not find one with an actual ASET image.
They were all computer generated.

edit: just checked 10 rounds all computer generated ASET images as well as h&a images for those that had them.

Some, not all, of the cushions I posted do have actual, not generated, ASETs.

ok thanks, I didn't check your links I just clicked on random stones on the website.
The fact remains that a large amount of them have computer generated rather than real images.

 

[Gypsy]

Karl_K - We rely on our suppliers for the ASET and IdealScope images we display. We try our best to remove any and all instances where we believe the image is a computer representation and not the actual stone.

I checked about 20 cushions and did not find one with an actual ASET image.
They were all computer generated.

edit: just checked 10 rounds all computer generated ASET images as well as h&a images for those that had them.

Some, not all, of the cushions I posted do have actual, not generated, ASETs.

ok thanks, I didn't check your links I just clicked on random stones on the website.
The fact remains that a large amount of them have computer generated rather than real images.

Totally agree. But so are B2C's. It's better than nothing. But yes, actual ASETs (especially ones with white backgrounds) would be the most helpful.

 

[chrono]

Welcome, Jonathan! Very nice to meet you! I don't usually recommend drop shippers for diamonds, but I am very encouraged by one who offers magnified photos of stones and ASETs or Idealscope images. Thanks for clarifying the return policy as well. I think that is fine as long as it is clear which diamonds are excluded.

Absolutely. I'm with DS in that I welcome vendors who offer pictures of the actual diamond, together with ASET or IS images. Thank you also for clarifying the return policy and making it clear which diamonds are excluded from returns.

 

[MelisendeDiamonds]

Our cut score is not bogus.

Jonathan welcome to Pricecope, it would be nice to see more active new trademembers here, I hope you stick around there aren't very many of us and I'm sure by now you have figured out why.

The cut score for round brilliants "might" have some merit(not as much as GIAL though) but if it is proportion based the utility would still be severely limited.

The cut score for fancy cuts has no merit whatsoever if it is only proportion based. There is simply not enough information on a grading report to be able to report a score that has any value.


I am not familiar with Sarine Light, could you please provide some more information on how they determine a performance score.
There is nothing I have found in their marketing material or videos that provides anything meaningful or specific on how they determine their metrics. I would assume it is based on a non contact scan much like AGSL's cut grading. But from that point onwards I have no idea and I suspect it is not well explained or been critically peer reviewed.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Jonathan,
Wow. This is like starting the morning in Nursery school and by lunch you're in high school- you're getting a very quick education

About the cut grade- there's really no way around it. ANY site that offers cut grading NOT based on AGSL or GIA will get a beating here- and they should because it's very easy to view this as misleading information to the consumer.
Honestly I can't see any other way to view that issue.


I think your pictures and videos are informative and helpful to consumers.
As we can see, people who do not understand aset will trash stones they have never seen.
This will be an issue for you regardless of how you take ASET.
The issue, as I see it is this.

**edited by moderator. NO bashing members, veiled or openly**

But please stay around!!

 

[Gypsy]

Our cut score is not bogus.

The cut score for fancy cuts has no merit whatsoever if it is only proportion based. There is simply not enough information on a grading report to be able to report a score that has any value.

I agree.

I think maybe the best solution is that instead of using a misleading "ideal" or "excellent" label for fancies, you can do a 'hand selected' or 'in house approved' category based on non-proportion based criteria such as ASET, gemologist inspection, megascope (and post all of those, including gemologists notes). And adding a tab or link that explains the in house criteria that needs to be met to get that label, is the best way to go. But it needs to be clear these are IN HOUSE criteria established by you, and the criteria for the standard needs to be spelled out.

So you could do " BD Select" and/or "BD Preferred" designations for example. And that way people will know that certain stones are better than others, and you avoid the misleading labels of excellent and ideal for fancies, or the proportion based cut score you current have that is, as stated above, without merit. Blue Nile for example has a "signature" line, and those have different policies, are guaranteed eyeclean (which is fantastic) and are better performers. And I believe their signature line stone also have GCAL reports to back up their 'signature' status. That sort of model is what I am recommending because it works to help consumers, it is clear that it is an in house label based on their own standards, and they even charge more for that line because of the extra information and checking.



I think it is admirable to want to assist your customers in what is a difficult decision. But I do think there is a better way to do that, rather than the way you are doing things now.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Our cut score is not bogus.

The cut score for fancy cuts has no merit whatsoever if it is only proportion based. There is simply not enough information on a grading report to be able to report a score that has any value.

I agree.

I think maybe the best solution is that instead of using a misleading "ideal" or "excellent" label for fancies, you can do a 'hand selected' or 'in house approved' category based on non-proportion based criteria such as ASET, gemologist inspection, megascope (and post all of those, including gemologists notes). And adding a tab or link that explains the in house criteria that needs to be met to get that label, is the best way to go. But it needs to be clear these are IN HOUSE criteria established by you, and the criteria for the standard needs to be spelled out.

So you could do " BD Select" and/or "BD Preferred" designations for example. And that way people will know that certain stones are better than others, and you avoid the misleading labels of excellent and ideal for fancies, or the proportion based cut score you current have that is, as stated above, without merit. Blue Nile for example has a "signature" line, and those have different policies, are guaranteed eyeclean (which is fantastic) and are better performers. And I believe their signature line stone also have GCAL reports to back up their 'signature' status. That sort of model is what I am recommending because it works to help consumers, it is clear that it is an in house label based on their own standards, and they even charge more for that line because of the extra information and checking.



I think it is admirable to want to assist your customers in what is a difficult decision. But I do think there is a better way to do that, rather than the way you are doing things now.

I fully agree with Gypsy. I had not explored the cushions until I clicked on her links here. Her suggestion is far more helpful. Other vendors have a two or three tier in-house grading scale to identify the best stones and then the others just need to have no designation.