Is this a common SCAM?

[Ryerson]

Hey Everyone!

This is a fantastic forum and website! Really enjoy learning from everyone here! Never thought buying an engagement ring would be SO much work!

I''m curious if I''m being scammed or not.

FIRST, I live in Toronto, Canada and bought a ring last week from an independant jeweler near the Eaton Centre downtown. When I went to pick it up this week the setting was perfect, but the diamond (a princess cut, just over .75) was SO obviously not what I picked out!!! It was SO yellow and had an ENORMOUS black spot/inclusion on it that I without a doubt would have picked up when I looked at it earlier. I refused to take it and lost my deposit of $200!

After not being impressed with what I saw at People''s (big retail jewler inside the Eaton Centre), I went to another independent along Yonge Street and have just ordered another ring. The specs are:

Princess Cut
.70 Carat
SI2
F Colour
GOOD Cut

It is being set in a 19K White Gold setting. Paying $2700 for it. It is certified by Gem Scan.

NOW, I picked this diamond because it VERY gorgeous, I could not see what inclusions (are they always black?). What are my rights if the diamond I pick up next week is obviously not the one I was looking at when I purchased it???? I''m not a diamond grader, but this particular diamond looked MUCH better than a similar one at SI1, which was slightly bigger (.71, it was a little more dull in clarity).

She showed me the Gem Scan certificate and is sending it to be re-certified. So I WILL be getting the diamond above (same specs), but could I have possibly been shown a much more high quality diamond originally? Now when it comes back and it is TRULY an SI2, I can''t complain because that''s what I ordered? Am I making any sense? LOL!

Any help/comments would be greatly appreciated!

THANKS!

Rye!

HELP!

 

[Nicrez]

Hey Rye, welcome to Price Scope!!!

I would go back to this place that scammed you out of the $200 and threaten them for it back. Honestly, why should you have to pay $200 for them to switch stones on you?

That is just lucricrous, you are being too nice! Then again, I do this in NYC, and it's much easier, as we are all mean people...

Unlike our Canadian brethren...

Seriously, put your foot down, say that you will report them to the BBB, or even ask to speak to the highest manager there. Get their company name, or speak to someone in corporate, if they are owned by a larger company.

As for the new ring, there should be little problem with a SI2, if you didn't see any major inclusions. It could be clean, and have WHITE inclusions that are small, or toward the outer edges. Again, I can't tell, but you say it was nice, so it's your eyes that would be most important.

I hae never heard of Gem Scan, honestly, but the Diamond GRading labs that are generally accepted to be the most reliable are GIA, AGS, HRD, EGL and a few others. These are just the most likely to be the most dead-on with color or clarity, and as such can sell at a bit of a premuim over other labs. Even then, you know you are getting an H color or VS1 grade, almost consistantly, compared to others.

Either way, GET YOUR MONEY BACK! DON'T GIVE UP!!! Because if you do, they can do this to someone else, over and over, and people like them will stay in business are harm other people like you! Good luck and let us know what happens!!!

 

[hoorray]

I suppose if it is not too late, you could ask the store to show you how to map the stone to the certificate (inclusion plot, cut specs, color etc.) in order to know that the stone they are showing you matches what you are going to get. The point of certificates is to help you "know and verify that your stone is what they say it is". Even after you own it, you should learn how to identify your stone through a loop.




I also would not buy a stone that did not give you a chance to return it for a full refund within a reasonable period of time. (7 -30 days is the normal range.) That gives you an out if you change your mind, or get an appraisal that tells you something you didn't know.




And, I agree with Nic...go get your $200 back and report them to whatever Canadian athorities exist to monitor shady business practices!

 

[Ryerson]

Thank you for the reply!

Everyone around here seems to have diamonds certified by Gem Scam (www.gemscan.com). I think I read in a previous thread that their reliability is questionable. Another jeweller nearby (there's a big cluster around the Eaton Centre) physically takes you and the diamond TO the GemScan lab and lets you watch them appraise your diamond in front of you. No line up or nothing, makes me wonder how reputable they are!

If I AM getting the princess stone I selected yesterday and it truly was an SI2, then it's a heck of a value and it looked very beautiful. Could not tell what the inclusions were. She did show me a pre-set diamond (to show me a setting) and it visibly had black inclusions within the diamond that were VERY noticable (kinda like the diamond the first guy gave me instead of the one I selected). I get conflicting answers as to what SI2 is. Some sites/jewelers say the inclusions are barely noticable but others say they are VERY noticeable. My budet was $3000-$3400 CDN, so I was very limited as to what I could get!

I really wish there were some DECENT jewelers downtown. I can't say this has been the best purchasing experience I've ever had. I have enjoyed inspecting and looking at the diamonds though!

Starting to wish I studied gemology and became a jewler now!

Can still become an international diamond thief I guess! LOL!

 

[valeria101]

With the GemScan lab nextdoor, it makes sense that sellers in the area prefer it rather than sending their stone for a month-long vacation at GIA's. Usually, the stones with such certificates get a bit of discount, so that this could compensate for a potentially diverging GIA opinion (since those guys made the standard, literally).

Based on your words, I would say that it was the cutting, not the clarity making one stone appear dull and the other bright

 

[pulp_princess]

I agree that you shouldn't have to pay a $200 deposit if it wasn't the stone that you were shown earlier. Make a fuss, call the managers, call BBB, or whomever, because that's theft, IMHO. That's your girl's gem money! See, Nic, not all Canadians are too nice!

It is a bit tricky, but there are a few places that don't use GemScan. On Bloor, there's Cartier, Tiffany, and Birks. I don't know what Tiffany's affiliations with GIA are, but less than a carat, the diamond comes with a Tiffany certificate which has all the info that GIA gives, plus the insurance letter was signed by someone with GIA certifications. I don't remember seeing princess cuts at Tiffany's, though. They'll probably push a Lucida cut. Birks also has their own grading facility with all the info GIA provides. (I think they told me they had more than GIA, but according to the newer GIA certificates, that's no longer the case.) There's also Martin of USACerted, he's in Thornhill and promises the lowest prices on internet diamonds. I don't believe he uses GemScan either. He's an appraiser.

Cartier is also not a GemScan subscriber but I don't think the branch on Bloor is too well stocked. They'd have to call in stones for you.

Anyone have more to add to the list?

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 5/5/2004 12:44:49 PM pulp_princess wrote:



It is a bit tricky, but there are a few places that don't use GemScan. On Bloor, there's Cartier, Tiffany, and Birks.

There's also Martin of USACerted, [...].

Anyone have more to add to the list?----------------

Well... one ca always shop online, right ?

 

[pulp_princess]

Yes, but he was asking about decent jewellers downtown Toronto.

Although Thornhill isn't really downtown either.

I found an older post by blakeo saying the office is in North York so there must be a Toronto office of USA Certed as well.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/buying-a-diamond-in-toronto-canada-my-experience.8107/

North York is still downtown by subway.

Online, the import taxes take a very significant bite out of $3000-3400 CDN, IMO.

----------------
On 5/5/2004 12:51:17 PM valeria101 wrote:





Well... one ca always shop online, right ?


----------------

 

[Ryerson]

Thank you everyone! Especially Pulp Princess for the Toronto suggestions!

My problem is I waited 3 weeks for the original diamond ring (the one that got switched), and I'm going away with my GF to the destinationw here I'm going to propose to her! SO, I'm in a bit of a time crunch!

Buying online did pass my mind, but I didn't like the idea of not being able to look at the diamonds first hand before I bought one. I'm sure there's ways around that and have heard great things about Martin on here (too bad I didn't find this site earlier! ARGH!

..).

After getting bitten at the first jewellers, I guess I'm jumping the gun when it comes to worrying about this other one. Everything could turn out OK!

As for getting the $200 back...I kinda felt bad because he made the rings from scratch and set it, etc. Now he has to sell it. But than again, WHY am I being nice if he tried to pull a fast one on me?

Keep the msgs coming!

 

[Daniela]

Ryerson (is that where you went to school?),

Step one: Take a deep breath. Do not rush this purchase. She has to wear this ring forever, so you need to make decisions with a clear head and not spend a lot of money on something that's not as attractive as it could be.

Second thing: You are misunderstanding the import taxes. ALL diamonds are taxed when they come into the country, unless they are of Canadian origin, and these carry a premium anyway so that taxes or no taxes, they are still expensive. The import tax is simply BUILT IN to the price that you're paying on that princess diamond you liked in the store. So don't be fooled.

Third thing: it is cheaper to buy online. I say, run, don't walk, away from these two jewellers you've been working with and go to Martin at USAcerted. Get your girl the beautiful diamond she deserves, do not settle for something less just because you have a time frame. That's just plain silly. Yes, you can view the stone you choose with him in Thornhill, which takes the guesswork out of it.

Now, if you have a problem with buying online (and I seriously suggest that you get over it, because there are so many reputable vendors), then BUY AT TIFF'S OR CARTIER! I'm not kidding. You'll have to buy a VS quality stone, but it will be so much nicer than the crap you find at the mall and elsewhere. Their prices are, believe it or not, very similar to other jewellery stores if you compare the same specs and cut quality. Remember to compare apples to apples.

I'm a Canadian and bought at GOG. If you want to hear more about my experience, feel free to personal message me. My gut feeling is that USAcerted is what is best for you. You made it this far (to Pricescope, that is), so use this forum to help you make the best purchase for you.

Good luck,

Daniela

 

[Bing Chow]

I'm Canadian and I also second the notion of buying online. Even if it costs the same, (it won't) I have an inkling you'll get better service and you will develope a good, professional relationship with these vendors. The magnified photos they provide, showing you where the inclusions are, is enough, let alone the courtesy and pressure-free atmosphere they all seem to provide.

I went to NiceIce and I got the same A+ service that everybody here raves about at their respective vendors.

 

[canuk-gal]

HI:

Daniela, may I take advantage of your offer to communicate (privately) about your experience with GOG--as I am Canadian too (Calgary) and am seriously considering buying online after my F2F experiences here with B&M vendors. I can be reached at [email protected]

cheers

slb

 

[pulp_princess]

If you're on a tight deadline, online vendors can work with you too. I haven't had any experience with Birks, but Tiffany was a PIA! Over six months to size my ring and all the subsequent problems that went with it! Anytime you need to have it serviced, it has to be shipped to the U.S., go through their "QC"

and come back. I would NOT recommend them if you have a deadline, just in case of problems. (I hesitate to recommend them at all, but just to be fair.... and they don't use GemScan.)

I would disagree with online being cheaper for all cases. Tiffany prices were very comparable to online ones when I was looking (in 0.25 ct, D, VVS1 range). There may be a difference for different sizes, but after all the taxes, online was a bit more expensive for *that* particular case.

Superbcert was very good about timing and I didn't even have a deadline! Within a week, my stone was set, shipped, and arrived! Even with a concern about the setting, I had sent it back, it was worked on over the *weekend*(!!!), and arrived back within a week and a half! So even if you have a strict deadline, online vendors can be very understanding. Plus, with some of the vendors, you don't need to guess whether or not the stone will be beautiful. I was sick when I let Tiffany's pick a stone unseen for me and guess what? I didn't like it and sent it back. Martin deals with Superbcerts and he can let you see them in his North York office (at Steeles and something? - I'd have to look it up, if you want it). He'll take care of all the customs work and give you the final price. Please go see him if you have problems with this ring.

Wish you luck and please post pictures!

----------------
On 5/5/2004 3:26:16 PM Ryerson wrote:

Thank you everyone! Especially Pulp Princess for the Toronto suggestions!

My problem is I waited 3 weeks for the original diamond ring (the one that got switched), and I'm going away with my GF to the destinationw here I'm going to propose to her! SO, I'm in a bit of a time crunch!

Buying online did pass my mind, but I didn't like the idea of not being able to look at the diamonds first hand before I bought one. I'm sure there's ways around that and have heard great things about Martin on here (too bad I didn't find this site earlier! ARGH!

..).

After getting bitten at the first jewellers, I guess I'm jumping the gun when it comes to worrying about this other one. Everything could turn out OK!

As for getting the $200 back...I kinda felt bad because he made the rings from scratch and set it, etc. Now he has to sell it. But than again, WHY am I being nice if he tried to pull a fast one on me?

Keep the msgs coming!

----------------

 

[Daniela]

Canuk-gal,

I welcome any and all questions from inquiring Canadians! PM me if you like.

Daniela

 

[Ryerson]

Thanks again Pulp Princess!

I will definetly post a picture of the ring after I pick it up this week (maybe Wednesday). This second vendor had some good reviews on here and some other sites I found through Google, so expecting a beautiful setting with the diamond I chose in it!

A female friend told me before I set out searching for diamonds that I should expect to spend $5000 CDN for something of quality. Wishing I listened to her!

Even though it's almost double my budget, I now understand it's well worth it. Had a look at Tiffany's and Cartier, GORGEOUS rings!

Take Care!

Rye

 

[pulp_princess]

----------------
On 5/8/2004 4:31:19 PM Ryerson wrote:

Thanks again Pulp Princess!

A female friend told me before I set out searching for diamonds that I should expect to spend $5000 CDN for something of quality. Wishing I listened to her!----------------

Happy to help where I can.

I have to disagree with your female friend though. You don't have to spend $5 K to find a nice quality stone. Just a quick search on the Pricescope search gives:

0.76 F SI1 $1964 ($2721 CDN) Dirt Cheap Diamonds
0.76 F SI1 $1998 ($2768 CDN) USA Certed

There are many other options too, these were just close to your specs. The last one, for example, even with 25% added on for taxes (OUCH!) still comes to $3460 CDN. And don't feel like you have to spend a certain sum. Spend whatever you're comfortable with. I'm sure she'll love it!

 

[Bing Chow]

Pulp Princess:

How did you figure a 50% import tax? When I bought mine, I paid only GST/PST, no excise tax. There continues to be confusion over this matter. I'd like to figure it out in case I want to buy another stone in the future.

 

[pulp_princess]

----------------
On 5/8/2004 9:03:48 PM Bing Chow wrote:

Pulp Princess:

How did you figure a 50% import tax? When I bought mine, I paid only GST/PST, no excise tax. There continues to be confusion over this matter. I'd like to figure it out in case I want to buy another stone in the future.----------------

Oh, sorry about that. Glad you pointed that out!

I meant to say 25% tax (8% PST, 7% GST, 10% luxury tax), then I added 25% (give or take a bit) for the exchange rate to get to the total in CDN. I forgot I already used a conversion rate and added it again! Thanks for letting me know I need some sleep too.

Off to edit a few numbers in that post beforehand now....

 

[Mikey]

Just picked it up yesterday... sorry about the blurry pics

Carat: 0.74
Cut: Ideal
Color: E
Clarity: SI2 (Toronto independent jeweler says it looks more like SI1)
Measurement: 5.85 - 5.81 x 3.59mm
Crown 35.1
Pavilion 40.8
Table 55.9%
Depth 61.6%
Bottom Line: $4150 CAN (approx. $3050 USD)
GemScan certified platinum engagement ring (included)

After reading today's thread I noticed how T.O. jewelers and Gemscan appraisal have been getting the bad rap. My experience have been positive (so far). The jeweler on Yonge street was very reputable having been in business for 16 years. Having done my homework I could not find a better price elsewhere. But what made me choose to buy from this small store near Eglinton Ave was that the owner was patient enough to answer all my questions. For about a month and a half, we were looking at stones that were in my budget until I finally made up my mind.

Do you think Martin @USAcerted can beat that price?

As far as Gemscan the only way to test how reputable they is by taking it to EGL Canada and see if the appraisal is the same. Looking at the links on the Gemscan website, GIA and other US Appraisals are also listed so perhaps they follow the same standards.

 

[Mikey]

here's another one...it sparkles like crazy

 

[Mikey]

One more tip...get it laser inscribed with the Gemscan# on the Girdle for your protection so that future switches can be prevented.

take care

 

[pulp_princess]

----------------
On 5/9/2004 11:27:31 AM Mikey wrote:


After reading today's thread I noticed how T.O. jewelers and Gemscan appraisal have been getting the bad rap. My experience have been positive (so far). The jeweler on Yonge street was very reputable having been in business for 16 years. Having done my homework I could not find a better price elsewhere. But what made me choose to buy from this small store near Eglinton Ave was that the owner was patient enough to answer all my questions. For about a month and a half, we were looking at stones that were in my budget until I finally made up my mind.

Do you think Martin @USAcerted can beat that price?

As far as Gemscan the only way to test how reputable they is by taking it to EGL Canada and see if the appraisal is the same. Looking at the links on the Gemscan website, GIA and other US Appraisals are also listed so perhaps they follow the same standards.----------------

I think Gemscan suffers from a lack of reputation. They have a clean slate to start from, but they are also used by Peoples, Mappins, and the other mall jewellers as well as the local B&Ms. Since the mall jewellers are the only ones with a reputation that uses them, some of that opinion probably transfers over to Gemscan, unfortunately. Plus, if jewellers are switching stones, which may have happened in Ryerson's case (accidentally or otherwise), that doesn't help either.

They have a Sarin machine, I hear, but most jewellers don't use this service because of the extra charge. On the website, it also states that each appraiser is a graduate gemmologist from GIA.

If you found a good jeweller in Toronto, it might help to share the name of the store, so others could shop there too!

Congratulations on your purchase!

As to whether Martin can beat that price, you can run the price search and see. The cost of the diamonds here don't include the setting.

 

[Ryerson]

Hello Diamond Friends!

YET ANOTHER TWIST IN MY SAD STORY:

I spoke with the jeweller today that is making the 2nd ring for me. He received the grading report back from GemScan and it turns out the diamond I chose did not match the certificate I saw. It was a MUCH more high quality diamond (remember, I commented it looked absolutely brilliant, could not see any inclusions even though it was a SI2, etc).

Anyways, to compensate me for the mistake, they have ordered and begun setting a stone that is .02 carats bigger (.72 now) and 1 grade better in colour (from F to E).

SO...should I expect to see many VERY visible inclusions now, even without a scope?

Ryerson!

 

[Daniela]

Ryerson, my God, just walk away from this one. They are not being honest with you, and don't deserve your business. Walk away! This is absolutely ridiculous.

If you're worried about wanting to buy something in the TO area, then use USAcerted or something. Or let us help you find something else. This is just unacceptable, but it doesn't have to be this way!

Daniela

 

[pulp_princess]

So where is the diamond that matches the certificate?!!? Does this one have a certificate? Did you see it? That makes me uncomfortable that they're setting an SI2 without letting you see it first.

I've had two experiences where I let a jeweller choose a stone for me and one set the stone before I saw it. That stone didn't work out, but the situation did. I hope it works out for you. You did say this jeweller had a few good reviews, so maybe it will. Keep hoping, and if this doesn't work out, you can try one of the other suggested vendors. I've got my fingers crossed for you.

 

[Ryerson]

Thanks people!

Unfortunetly I'm going overseas Monday night and wanted the ring before I left (should have had it by now!!).

I'll probably end up buying the ring in Europe if it doesn't work out Monday. Actually, its apparently available today, if I get a chance I'll swing down today.

I too am surprised they didn't ask me to look at the stone before they set it. If it's a piece of crap, I'll definetly post ALL their contact info here as well as the other jerk I dealt with before.

Too bad I didn't buy that original diamond on the spot!! >

I had a feeling it was a lot better than the certificate said. Gotta listen to your gut!

Will keep you all posted,

Ryerson