Ice vs HCA

[Chino_09]

Newbie to the forum. So the grueling search is still on for an engagement ring. I've been reading how some people would not go below an HCA of 2 on a RB. What are your thoughts on this? I really want the stone to sparkle like hell but I also want a decently sized stone with my budget ($8-$9K). There's a huge price change between colorless and near colorless. I'm just debating on whether to go with a slightly bigger stone with less color and lower HCA or go with a smaller stone (colorless).

I've been working with Terry over at Solomon Brothers (PS Vendor). He has been very helpful and prompt with replies. They have really good prices and we came across a GIA 1.38ct H SI1 Triple-X. The table is very clean for an SI1 and the HCA of 1.3.

Depth: 62.3
Table: 56
Crown: 35.5
Pavilion: 40.6



On the other hand, I went to a brick and mortar shop in downtown LA. I do not have all the numbers on me right now but it was a 1.21 F SI1 Triple-X. Obviously, the stone is smaller, but the color was great. I can really see the ice factor on this one compared to Solomon Brothers. However, the HCA on this was over 3.5.



What do you think is more important: Smaller Colorless Stone with Bad HCA >3 or a Large Near Colorless Stone with Good HCA <2.

Time is on my side right now as I intend on proposing early December. However, I don't want to wait till the last minute. How are the HCA score comparisons. Will a ~1.5 really sparkle that much more compared to a 3 or more? I also want to get the best color so my search parameters this whole time has been E or F SI1 with no/faint fluorescence. I'm looking for over 1.25ct with these specifications but also trying to take into account the HCA as well. I found some nice 1.25-1.3 stones from Ritani in the colorless range but their HCA scores are abysmal.

Any input would be appreciated.

-Chino

 

[alpackie]

Unless you're extremely color-sensitive, the only thing that matters is sparkle. That means cut and carat.

Most people say not to go below a J, though.

By the way, not all cuts are created equal. Ideally you should assess the cut through an IdealScope, or have the vendor get you i-scope images taken.

 

[TC1987]

There may be two reasons why the 2nd diamond looks whiter: Color and make. Click the link for thee thread entitled "cheat sheet for rounds", below, and read the descriptions of what the ranges of crown + pavilion angles + table size do. A shallow diamond more toward 60% table / 60% depth, if cut right, will be very bright (brilliance) but less fire (dispersion.) Stones with tall crown / small table/ greater depth may be more firey but can look "dark." Personal preference is personal preference. Maybe you like one look better than the other. Some people who don't care as much about fire go for a shallower and spready diamond that looks very white & bright.

We've discussed BIC, TIC, and FIC here in the past: brilliant, Tolk, and firey ideal cuts. Maybe look that up.

This text is from the HCA tool, it's under the graph.

Deeper proportioned stones, near the upper part of the red area, have more leakage. Leakage means reduced light return. A limited amount of reduced light return can contribute to a diamonds contrast. Diamonds with a large area of partial leakage table, seen as a pale pink area with an Ideal-Scope, are best set in open backed rings so light can get in the bottom or pavilion of the diamond. It is possible for light entering the pavilion to leak back out the top as firey dispersed colored flashes. Deeper diamonds that have perfect or hearts and arrows grade symmetry, with scores around 2, will often perform far better than diamonds of lesser symmetry.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/preferred-specs-cheat-sheet-for-rounds.88548/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/preferred-specs-cheat-sheet-for-rounds.88548/[/URL]
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/60-60-proportioned-diamond
and read some of the education at niceice.com and goodoldgold.

An H would be white enough for me. Most people start to notice tint in I and by the J range, it's pretty obvious. If you like icy white, then you will have to stick with D & E or whatever colors you thought looked best. But face-up when mounted, H looks white to me.

 

[TC1987]

Also ,beware of the GIA "steep deep" stones, also discussed at length on here. Some of the stones that GIA rates excellent cut are pretty poor. Not all GIA excellent cuts are good performers. AGS is stricter on cut grade.

 

[luvdajules]

Hi OP, I'm gonna try to address your question in your post: "What do you think is more important: Smaller Colorless Stone with Bad HCA >3 or a Large Near Colorless Stone with Good HCA <2. "

Well, although it's good to get the opinion of others and help you shape yours, what matter is what matters to you. We all balance the 5 C's (cut, carat, color, clarity, cost) to our own priorities. However, most of the regular posters and people who actively lurk this forum, would only consider well cut (excellent make) diamonds. Not all GIA triple excellent stones are top makes, that's why we use the HCA tool to reject stones. However, it seems from your post that you were taken with the icy whiteness of the F color you saw at a BM store. This is a great observation. You know that you love the higher colors of the colorless group. How does your intended feel about smaller but higher color versus larger diamond but lower color (near colorless G-J)?

I can only ask you probing questions for your consideration and share my own experience. I did get a chance to view IRL a smaller G super ideal diamond with a much larger J color diamond that was not a super ideal but AGS0 (both in budget, smaller stone about 12% more). Since I was picking out my own diamond, I chose the much larger J. Larger size means larger facets, so out sparkled the smaller G super ideal. My husband and I didn't see a ton of difference in color (as Jonathan from GOG would say "no big whoop") in normal and dim lighting conditions. Both diamonds reacted similarly to various lighting changes. Maybe we're not as color sensitive or more motivated to get our dream size, not sure. I'm not sure if others have this experience before and what they chose, but that was my/our experience.

Don't forget, you can find a middle ground by finding the biggest, well cut G eye clean Si1/Si2. Sometimes, if you are working with a vendor like SB, they can find a near eye clean option where the inclusion is prongable. But I say this not knowing the priorities of the intended wearer. Now that I have my diamond set and wearing for a couple of months, all people notice is the size and sparkle and that its white, not noticeably tinted. In my market, I think it's rare to see colorless stones, people tend to favor size here. Since joining PS, I'm better at noticing color on others and in my circle, have seen rather large (3 ct+) in the K/L/M range. Although they are slightly warm at times, they are still beautiful and sparkle well.

Good luck, you are on the right track and asking good questions. Keep us posted on your search!

 

[Chino_09]

Thank you for all the replies, everyone. The info has been great. I actually went to another BM store yesterday. I told the salesperson what I was looking for and she showed me over a dozen of diamonds. One stood out because of it's size. For the past couple of months, I've been looking for a 1.25ct. The one I was shown was a 1.5ct F SI1 (H&A). It was the cleanest SI1 I ever seen. I took a close look at it with a 10X loupe and the table was completely clean. The only imperfections were on the sides which prongs could cover.

I really do like this diamond because of the size and wow factor. I calculated the HCA and it came out to a 2.8. Can I get your opinion on this stone? Everything is Excellent except the cut which is graded as Very Good. Please note the laboratory is EGL USA, not GIA. The shop told me that EGL USA is a lot more strict than parent EGL. I did some research on this lab with respect to how they compare with GIA and they typically grade 1 color grade softer and 1 clarity grade stricter than GIA. So I'm assuming I'm looking at a F/G VS2 when it comes to GIA standards. Below is a link that PS did on lab comparisons. This was done back in 2004 and from what I read on other sights, EGL USA has been aligning themselves more with GIA grading over the years.

http://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond-grading/clarity-and-color

This article just came out yesterday to EGL USA/GIA comparison.
http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/egl-usa-stricter-than-gia-in-test-case-1948843.htm

Here is the picture of the stone I saw. Sorry for the quality, my phone camera isn't the best.


Depth: 64
Table: 55
Crown: 37
Pavilion: 40.5

Now to the nitty gritty. The price is very competitive for this 1.5ct. Aside from the price, the carat size and how clean it is for SI1 are other positives that appeal to me. The only things that worry me are the percentages, especially the crown and depth. Can you all tell me your opinion on these specs? I read that ideal depth % is 58 - 63; so this falls a bit outside that range. The crown angle is a concern as well as most people I see (and even sales people I have talked to in the past) look for 33-35. Nonetheless, the specs say light return is excellent, and fire/scintillation is very good.

Bracing myself for your opinions now. Lol. Thanks again everyone!!

 

[RockyRacoon]

Thank you for all the replies, everyone. The info has been great. I actually went to another BM store yesterday. I told the salesperson what I was looking for and she showed me over a dozen of diamonds. One stood out because of it's size. For the past couple of months, I've been looking for a 1.25ct. The one I was shown was a 1.5ct F SI1 (H&A). It was the cleanest SI1 I ever seen. I took a close look at it with a 10X loupe and the table was completely clean. The only imperfections were on the sides which prongs could cover.

I really do like this diamond because of the size and wow factor. I calculated the HCA and it came out to a 2.8. Can I get your opinion on this stone? Everything is Excellent except the cut which is graded as Very Good. Please note the laboratory is EGL USA, not GIA. The shop told me that EGL USA is a lot more strict than parent EGL. I did some research on this lab with respect to how they compare with GIA and they typically grade 1 color grade softer and 1 clarity grade stricter than GIA. So I'm assuming I'm looking at a F/G VS2 when it comes to GIA standards. Below is a link that PS did on lab comparisons. This was done back in 2004 and from what I read on other sights, EGL USA has been aligning themselves more with GIA grading over the years.

http://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamond-grading/clarity-and-color

This article just came out yesterday to EGL USA/GIA comparison.
http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/egl-usa-stricter-than-gia-in-test-case-1948843.htm

Here is the picture of the stone I saw. Sorry for the quality, my phone camera isn't the best.


Depth: 64
Table: 55
Crown: 37
Pavilion: 40.5

Now to the nitty gritty. The price is very competitive for this 1.5ct. Aside from the price, the carat size and how clean it is for SI1 are other positives that appeal to me. The only things that worry me are the percentages, especially the crown and depth. Can you all tell me your opinion on these specs? I read that ideal depth % is 58 - 63; so this falls a bit outside that range. The crown angle is a concern as well as most people I see (and even sales people I have talked to in the past) look for 33-35. Nonetheless, the specs say light return is excellent, and fire/scintillation is very good.

Bracing myself for your opinions now. Lol. Thanks again everyone!!

Keep looking. Avoid those EGL stones (ALL OF THEM - not just the international ones), since this is a one-time only purchase and you want to know that you got what you paid for.

Also - be aware that buying at a B&M store will involve paying sales tax. In California, that's almost 10%.

You might be better served purchasing GIA or AGS stones from an out-of-state company that provides all of the light-analysis that you need (examples: Good Old Gold, Whiteflash, BGD, and HPD) and putting that extra $1k tax savings into the stone.

Best of luck!

 

[HappyNewLife]

I'll let Gypsy and other experienced posters link you to why EGL is no bueno, but I would keep looking. I'd never buy an EGL or IGI graded diamond. In jewelry store lighting, all diamonds look sparkly and bright. That is one super deep diamond and you can do better, IMHO.

 

[luvdajules]

Hi OP, there will be many coming along to steer you away from any EGL certed stone and for good reason. However, I'm in the minority and would have probably considered an EGL for the right set of specs and price. Having said that, this stone falls too much outside of generally excepted excellent make cuts, depth is way too deep and the 37 for a crown angle but it is slightly offset by the PA). The HCA tells you all of this, however it's still under 3 (which is in it's favor). Remember an EGL VG cut is not a GIA VG cut, and it's generally excepted here that that's not even good enough. You need to sift through the GIA triple Xs. If you still want to proceed, get an even better deal and have it appraised by a third party appraiser during the return window. If no return window, no sale. Keep in mind, with a depth of 64%, your face up size in diameter is not taking advantage of the extra carat weight. So a 1.5 ct can still face up like a 1.3 ct.

I think you can find better with your budget. But again, you didn't mention the price of this EGL stone, just that it's competitive. Like I said, if you do proceed with this one, push for a harder deal...vendors are unloading EGL diamonds like bad stock after RapNet banned them from inventories just recently.

 

[Chino_09]

It looks like the consensus is to avoid EGL USA. Has anyone had recent experience with them? I know EGL, especially IS, has given the EGL lab name as a whole a bad rap, but I'm trying to keep an open mind and get the most bang for my buck.

The 1.5ct is indeed deep. @luvdajules really made a great point about how the stone would face up as a ~1.3ct and I wouldn't be taking full advantage of the carat weight due to the depth. The first thing that raised a flag was the VG cut. I did, however, go on GIA and used their charts; everything came back with VG on the three (Table/Crown/Pavilion) charts. When at the BM store, I asked them to put a GIA triple-ex next to it for comparison. Hands-down, the GIA Triple-Ex outperformed the EGL USA 1.5ct. The 1.5 wasn't piss poor though; it had good light return and sizzled in natural sunlight too.

The price quoted to me for the 1.5ct F SI1 H&A was $9,800. It's still over my price range but not by much; the carat weight was really what drew me in along with the clean table. I'm not trying to defend it, the cut was indeed subpar to GIA triple-ex and probably wouldn't perform well in all lighting due to it's depth.

Would I be better served taking forgetting about the 1.5ct and looking at this B2C 1.3ct F SI1 Triple-Ex (GIA)? It has an HCA of 1.7 and basically is identical in price to the 1.5ct EGL USA. My girlfriend would probably love the fact of having a 1.5ct, but I at the same time wouldn't want to short-change her by giving her a low quality stone. Wish I could have the best of both worlds and get a 1.5 Triple-Ex, but my budget can only afford one or the other. Haha. Here's the B2C stone, everyone. There is a small crystal on the table but that's about it. Is the size difference even noticeable between a 1.5 and 1.3?

http://www.b2cjewels.com/dd-5042868...m_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pricescope.com

http://images.b2cjewels.com/Images//Certificate//5042868.pdf

Thanks!!

 

[HappyNewLife]

if you happen to know the dimensions of the EGL 1.5 carat, you could compare it to the B2C diamond. Something tells me, the ideal cut 1.3 will be just as large in spread as the 1.5 steep EGL.

 

[Chino_09]

EGL/BM 1.5 F SI1 (H&A): 7.21 x 7.15 x 4.62

GIA/B2C 1.31 F SI1 (Triple-Ex): 7.02 x 7.04 x 4.31

 

[Chino_09]

EGL USA/BM 1.5 F SI1 (H&A): 7.21 x 7.15 x 4.62

GIA/B2C 1.31 F SI1 (Triple-Ex): 7.02 x 7.04 x 4.31

 

[alpackie]

 

[luvdajules]

Hi OP, the B2c stone you found I think is a good one for consideration, quite lucky to find an F with those specs in budget! Call them and hold it and ask for Idealscope or ASET info. verify inclusion (eye clean to your liking). Good job.

 

[Chino_09]

Thanks for the visual @alpackie! That is a great tool right there. You completely erased the deep 1.5 EGL USA from my memory.

Worked with Raymond over at B2C today. The 1.31 F SI1 is available and he confirmed that it is eye clean. He also sent me this picture. Very clean but you can see the cloud at 4 o'clock on the table under high magnification.



I emailed Terry at Solomon Brothers about this same stone as well and he said that the best he could do was to price match. In addition, White Flash has the stone but it does not appear they price match. Is there any added benefit if I go with either B2C or Solomon Brothers? Ie Who has the better customer service. B2C said that I can reserve the stone and I would not have to pay for it immediately. What is the allotted time they give for reservations before payment/cancellation is required? They also said that I cannot perform an Ideal Scope or ASET done until it is purchased. I think I want to see one or two more BM shops but don't want to lose out on this 1.31 at the same time.

 

[luvdajules]

Hi OP, I'm not good enough to see the cloud at 4 oclock, but it might make the diamond "sleepy" in that area, not as sparkly. This prolly why its the only F available with the specs in budget...really I tried on a couple sites and only got as close as G Si1/si2 60/60 type (60/60 stones are nice because they are very bright and spready for weight, so a 1.3 ct 60/60 will face up like a 1.5 ct.).

Anyway, keep it on hold at b2c and look some more, ask for their gemologist to share their thoughts on it if they can...if you do go ahead and buy, I would buy from b2c as they have some sort of upgrade policy whereas SB does not. Look up the upgrade policy, I believe it's pretty good for future reference. I think it might be worth a shot to be able to evaluate it in hand and take to appraiser. If it's too sleepy on that one side, then return it. Does b2c have a setting you like?

 

[tyty333]

That cloud is very small and should not affect the brilliance of the stone but for assurance, ask the b2c folks.

 

[Chino_09]

Ok. I now have the 1.31ct F SI 1 on hold with B2C. Their partner has it at the moment but it will be shipped to B2C for inspection once purchased. The parter described the stone as follows:

"According to the update received from our diamond partner it has a bright white face up with excellent luster and brilliance due to which it sparkles with immense brilliance and offers a great value for money."

I don't have a setting picked out yet. Looking for a solitaire cathedral setting at the moment and will visit one last BM shop tomorrow. I'll let you know how everything shapes up. Thanks for your help, everyone. I would have been another sucker if I didn't use PS as a resource!!!

 

[Chino_09]

The search is over! Hallelujah!!

Ended up demolishing my budget and will have to get used to Ramen noodles for awhile. Nonetheless, I'm satisfied with the specs. There's a couple pinpoints on the table, but I can live with that. I searched Blue Nile, JA, SB, B2C and WF and didn't find anything remotely close to this this price and HCA score for the specs listed.

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamo...-1,3-Carat-E-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-KLFHJD

GIA 1.30 E VS2 (Triple Ex) - HCA: 1.8
Table: 57
Depth: 61.6
Crown: 36
Pavilion: 40.6
No Fluorescence

I should have the stone with idealscope and have it mounted this weekend. Will post pics then. Thanks for your help, everyone!!

 

[blingbuyer]

The search is over! Hallelujah!!

Ended up demolishing my budget and will have to get used to Ramen noodles for awhile. Nonetheless, I'm satisfied with the specs. There's a couple pinpoints on the table, but I can live with that. I searched Blue Nile, JA, SB, B2C and WF and didn't find anything remotely close to this this price and HCA score for the specs listed.

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamo...-1,3-Carat-E-Color-VS2-Clarity-Diamond-KLFHJD

GIA 1.30 E VS2 (Triple Ex) - HCA: 1.8
Table: 57
Depth: 61.6
Crown: 36
Pavilion: 40.6
No Fluorescence

I should have the stone with idealscope and have it mounted this weekend. Will post pics then. Thanks for your help, everyone!!

looks like a nice selection. Did you decide on a setting as of yet?

 

[Chino_09]

Going with a 18k white gold petite cathedral solitaire setting with 6-prongs.