GIA vs Appraiser! What do you think?

[NoviceNYC]

Well I just got back from getting "my" stone appraised before buying and I have a slight bone of contention about the stone that I would love some guidance in understanding and possibly getting over (if that makes sense). The stone which is a G VS1 by GIA standards got appraised by Dave Wolf as an H. Not even a weak G or high H; a Medium to high H.

I had the rare opportunity to sit with both the appraiser as well as the vendor (who used to work for GIA) and got to listen to both sides but in the end they just disagreed. The appraiser appraised it as an H and GIA will keep it as G. The price difference between the 2 is about $1,500.
One thing that the appraiser hit home over and over again is how absolutely amazing the stone is cut. It is truly brilliant. He was hard pressed to find a stone to equal it to get the replacement value. I would have to make peace with the fact that I may be buying an H. I know H is an amazing stone but one thing to consider is that I just have certain standards that I want from MY stone-G VS1 Amazing cut. Plus the fact that I am paying for a G. On cert I have that but to know it is an H by other standards is hard to understand. I understand everything is subjective but I would really love some different feedback on what people think about this so that I can make my decision.

Stone:
Carat-1.7
Color-G
Clarity-VS1
HCA-.7
Dimentions-7.75-7.78x4.69
Table-55
Depth-60.4
Crown-34.2
Pavillion-40.7
Girdle-Thin-Medium
Polish/Symm-VG/EX (Dave gave EX/EX)
price-$14,262 and not changing

 

[NoviceNYC]

One thing to possibly add...The Internet replacement value on the stone that it was appraised for is $13,900...$300 less than I am paying. (If it were appraised at a G it would have been $15,100)

 

[elmo]

Did you get to see the comparison against the color master stones yourself? If so, what did you think? If not, how were both guys determining color?

 

[Stephan]

This diamond is a winner.
If you can see it's H and it disturbs you, don't buy it.
If you want a true G, don't buy it if it's important.
If you fell in love with the diamond, try to get it at a better price.
GIA certs are better than EGL, but sometimes...

 

[NoviceNYC]

I did get to see the comparison stones. The comparison stones were so tiny in comparison to "my" stone that I could hardly see anything so I chose/choose not to judge with the 2 experts there. I believe that my vender and maybe even GIA grade it by girdle and if the girdle has G or H qualities where Dave was grading it facet by facet.

 

[eyesoftexas]

If you think the stone visually looks great then just buy it!!! Forget about the specs since you know the stone is cut well and if Dave Atlas says it is a great stone then enough said....

 

[moremoremore]

would it make you feel better to take it to another appraiser ? Or to a jeweler and casually ask him or her (for free!) what color it is? Maybe if you hear more people tell you it's a G...than you'll feel better about it. Sounds like an awesome stone in any event and it probably is blinding b/c of the cut!

 

[elmo]

I agree that I'd try to negotiate price if H is still ok with you; maybe it's why this one was less expensive than some of the other stones to begin with. If the seller doesn't agree with Wolf's call maybe you could find someone there in NYC with a SAS2000 to help you make a case.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------

NYC....it's great to have standards, but honestly, the G or H is somewhat arbitrary. You're right....it IS a mental thing you need to get over. (I understand the mental thing, believe me. My mind was SET that I couldn't get a stone lower than F, SI1. I ended up getting over it and bought a STUNNING H, SI2!!!!!!!) Truth is, you could put a G and an H stone right next to one another, and you wouldn't be able to tell which was which.

Bottom line is this: Forget about what it's called on paper. Do you like the look of the stone? If so, then it shouldn't matter whether someone calls it a G or an H......it doesn't change appears just because someone calls it a G or an H. If 5 appraisers right now told you the stone was a G, you'd take it and be thrilled with it. You'd LOVE the way it looks. Do you really think it would then look less beautiful if 10 other appraisers told you next year that it's an H? Of course not.

You said yourself that the appraiser says he'd be really hard-pressed to find an equivalent cut, and that's the MOST important part of any stone. The stone sounds beautiful.

You also recognize that grading is subjective. It's an educated OPINION....not an exact science. Keep in mind that the GIA has several people grading a single stone, so more than one person agreed this was a G. Doesn't mean it couldn't still be a mistake, but just a note.

The only real concern I see is the potential cost difference in G vs. H. (Keep in mind that the vendor bought the stone as a G and therefore paid for a G stone....likely why he won't budge the price.) I'd also note that Dave W. said it was ex/ex, and your price is based on vg/ex, so it's kind of balancing out.

If you're really that hung up about it, take it to a third appraiser. If he also says it's an H, I'd press the vendor to knock the price down a bit. Emphasize that your insurance coverage will be based on appraisal, and if that says H, then replacement will be an H in the event of loss. (After all, the vendor can say it's a G all he wants, but he has a vested interest in it being a G.)

 

[NoviceNYC]

I don't think it can be a negotiation factor simply because of the "hands" that he got the stone from. He got the stone as a G, the people he got it from deem it a G because GIA says it's a G. And I have no clue about "hands" but he has to give someone money for this stone and I know he gave me a very low price. Even if the newest technology says it's an H, unless GIA changes their mind (which everyone knows they won't) I don't think I have a case to negotiate.
I do have to say that I was able to compare it to a really high G vvs2 (letter B in my original post-https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/criticism-and-praise-please-decision-time.14743/) and I was able to see that this stone was a bit more yellow. But perhaps that stone would be appraised at an F...who knows!?!

 

[baltneu]

NoviceNYC
Well, move over......
I ran into the same situation......
David Wolfe was also the appraisor.
AGS said it was an I, Wolfe said J.
So was kind of upset. I went back to vendor to negotiate price, no go.
They paid for it as an I, they were very nice about it, return it and get full refund or happy to pick another and have it appraised.
I decided to keep it. I loved the stone, and I think the price was good.
But you are right about price diff between color.

Here is another problem you will face when you buy it. I took the appraisal from Dave when the stone was mounted to my SF agent, policy was issued and the Declaration page called it a J. I was furious, because it is a replacement contract. They said they go by the appraisors report not the lab report (GIA or AGS). I would not accept this, so I worked with agent who worked with underwriter to put more "detail" in declaration page about the stone, so they are referencing the AGS report, branded H & A, etc, so in case of loss, I can point to the AGS report and the details for another fine stone, not a mediocre one, hope it never happens.

I must admit it is still in back of my mind I vs. J. Since I am reading this post you put out, it has crossed my mind that Wolfe might be a very tough appraisor, an other appraisor might agree with GIA. Good luck with what ever you do.

 

[elmo]

----------------
On 4/21/2004 3:39:46 PM aljdewey wrote:


it IS a mental thing you need to get over
----------------

A mental thing? For 1.5 VS1 the G-H price difference is $1188 per carat!

(or thereabouts)

 

[NoviceNYC]

Wow baltneu! That makes me feel so much better. Maybe he just has a very good master set of diamonds to compare. It does bother me however that the replacement value is/would be less but like I said but I can always get a second appraisal if it bothers me that much.
Phew! This post made me feel SO much better. Thank you all. Aljdewey had great points and backed up what my boyfriend said. I do love this stone and it is truly amazing and the price, one word, amazing!
As for the price difference in replacement cost and purchasing cost, $300..not too bad god forbid anything happens. It was more of "I want what I am paying for". I just want to know it is a G. I am content with the fact that it is now.
As for cost per carat for appraisal, actually a G VS1 is $9,300 per carat and H VS1 is $7,900, so it is quite significant. I was shocked.

 

[mercerdnky]

We had a similar experience but not as extreme - our GIA H was appraised by D. Wolf as and H/I (split). I didn't think much of it because the diamond is beautiful. I just thought he was a hard grader. This thread, to me, confirms it.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/21/2004 4:59:47 PM NoviceNYC wrote:

It was more of 'I want what I am paying for'. I just want to know it is a G. I am content with the fact that it is now.
As for cost per carat for appraisal, actually a G VS1 is $9,300 per carat and H VS1 is $7,900, so it is quite significant. I was shocked.
----------------

That's the bug-a-boo here. You either suck the potential price dif up; or, return it. I'm surprised that with the dealer right there that Wolf still stuck to his guns.

Yes, for the relatively small visual dif. b/t a G and an H, the price dif. is more substantial. I so remember the other G you were looking at was higher priced.

Do you love it?

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 4/21/2004 4:23:42 PM elmo wrote:

----------------
On 4/21/2004 3:39:46 PM aljdewey wrote:






it IS a mental thing you need to get over
----------------

A mental thing? For 1.5 VS1 the G-H price difference is $1188 per carat!

(or thereabouts)
----------------

Elmo......did you read my entire post or just a piece of it? I acknowledged that there is a price difference, and also noted that the vendor paid for it as a G.

What I was referring to (and you KNOW it) was the "mental" aspect of having an H instead of a G.....and how that flushes with her "standards" of having to have a G, VS.

 

[aljdewey]

----------------
On 4/21/2004 4:59:47 PM NoviceNYC wrote:





Maybe he just has a very good master set of diamonds to compare----------------

Actually, if his master set differs in ANY way from standard master sets, that's *not* a plus for you. It's hard to imagine his master set is better than those of GIA/AGS.

Considering how many people have chimed in to say that Dave Wolf graded their stone lower......I'd tend to think this is a "Dave" issue and *not* an issue of your stone being an H. Sounds like he's a bit maniacal on the grading all the way around.

 

[baltneu]

After reading all of these post and my own experience I would not use Wolfe again. His appraisal has caused me lots of extra work with my insurance carrier. I do not get paid for beating up my P & C agent, a big waste of my time.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Perhaps you might consider sending the stone to Marty Haske of Adamas Laboratory in Massachusetts.

His SAS-2000 spectrophotometer would produce a spectrum result that nobody could argue with (including GIA). It would show clearly where on the color spectrum the diamond falls.

An example can be seen at:

http://www.gis.net/~adamas/sas2000.html

You could tell the vendor if it graphs out a "G", you'll take it at the price offered. Alternatively, if it graphs out an "H", you'll take it with the appropriate discount. Otherwise, no sale.

Marty might not charge that much for just a color grade. Tell him I referred you. Perhaps the vendor will cover the cost, or split it with you.

 

[elmo]

Sounds like a great idea, Marty's one of the best...he went out of his way to help us out a few months ago.

 

[WinkHPD]

Just my opinion, but GIA sets the standards for using their grading system. If they, with their color master stones say that it is a G, then by GIA standards it is a G.

Is it possible that the stone got a lucky cert? Yes. Will the seller take a lower price? Not likely. With the current margins in the diamond trade there is not room for the vendor who sold you the stone to give a discount. He will have paid his supplier for the stone as a G and his supplier will not give you a discount based on the word of an independant appraiser, no matter how good that appraiser is. In most internet based sales, if the vendor were to adjust the price to that proposed by your appraiser, then the vendor will be delivering the stone at below his cost, not a good way to stay in business.

As a jeweler, I question a replacement cost appraisal that is given at internet markup values so tightly that the appraised value is less than the price paid, especially when the stone is accompanied by a GIA Diamond Grading Report. I agree that to appraise it at full traditional retail is to incur needlessly high premiums to a buyer who uses the internet, but I think to appraise it so close to the actual wholesale cost might also guarantee that you are under insured by the next 5% price increase at the wholesale level. (Cautionary note, I have not gone to the time to look up the actual wholesale cost on this stone but am assuming an internet purchase since this forum is not highly populated with people paying full retail. Please forgive me if this is a flawed assumption.)

Granted, idealy you should reappraise your jewelry every year, but in our busy lives, who really does.

Also, in the GIA course work they state that a difference of up to one full color grade is a matter of opinion. I know it is tempting to want to measure and provide exact statements of fact in all matters, but with diamonds, it really does come down to the eye of the beholder. I wish you well with your decision, but I know how the market will treat your stone so long as it is accompanied by your GIA Diamond Grading Report.

At the same time I can empathise with your appraiser. I was once working with a client on a three carat plus stone. I guaranteed him the stone would "cert" at a J - VS1 or better. I really thought the color was a solid J and the stone was borderline VVS2, just to the high side of the border in my opinion and he agreed to buy the stone at my price if the stone did indeed come back with those grades from GIA. Imagine my shock when the stone came back with the expected VVS2 clarity and an amazing to me, H color. (My client of course declined the offer of paying me what that stone was now worth, although I would have had to reduce my selling price if the oposite had been true.)

I do not know how that stone could have possibly graded an H and I sold it with my opinion of the color on the sales receipt so that I could never be liable should the stone someday get a new Diamond Grading Report that stated it to be the J I thought it should be. At the same time, I know how this stone will be treated by the trade should it ever reenter the market. It will be bought and sold as an H, it does not matter what Wink Jones in Boise thinks.

Wink

 

[elmo]

----------------
On 4/22/2004 9:23:23 AM Wink wrote:

I know how this stone will be treated by the trade should it ever reenter the market. It will be bought and sold as an H, it does not matter what Wink Jones in Boise thinks.
----------------

This is true if someone is buying the paper and not looking at the stone. If someone sends you an H on memo for me Wink and you think it's a J, I'd certainly hope you and the supplier would work on the price for me or you'd send it back.

 

[fire&ice]

NYNovice - curious what your current thinking is?

 

[NoviceNYC]

Thank you all for your help. The SAS-2000 is a very good option but at this point economically (Dave is not inexpensive) and psychologically I am just going to let this rest as a misnomer. I asked the vender if perhaps he knows someone that has a SAS-2000 for peace of mind, if not I am prepared to let it rest. He has been absolutely incredible with me and he has gone SO above and beyond in every way. He has offered to get a second appraisal done for me as well from a gentleman that is well regarded in the business (forgot his name-oopps

). I paid for an opinion and I did get it. I didn't love it but I did get it. I am getting another simply because for insurance purposes and peace of mind. After that the stone should be on its way to get set so I am SO happy about that.
I am SO happy with the stone. It is just stunning. I really couldn't just leave it even though the whole H thing bothers the heck out of me. I think with everything I have learned on this forum I have done really well. Does knowing my stone looks more like an H make me happy, no, but I think I did really well learning about the big C from being here and it paid off in a huge way. I got a sparkler. I have almost spent as much on the appraisal (VERY CLOSE) as I am in the appraised price difference between the color grades. I know it isn't Friday but I have to say it....Dave even said that Tiffany's would take this stone in a heart beat. It is exactly what they would buy.

I'll let everyone know how the second appraisal goes and if we can get it on a SAS-2000. Thank you so much again.

 

[solange]

>This subject is very interesting to me because I had a stone from Whiteflash sent to David Wolf for appraisal. Lesley had told me that the cutter thought the GIA might have been generous with the color grade and she asked if I wanted to take a chance and have it sent to them since it might not be exactly what I was looking for. I think manufacturers tend to be more candid with vendors who are actually going to see the stone rather than having it drop shipped because they are more likely to get it back if it does not live up to expectations.
Brian at Whiteflash looked at the stone and thought it was great looking so I asked them to send it to David Wolf. I went to his office to see the stone last week. It is over 4 carats so color is a major issue in a stone with this much surface.

In my case, David not only agreed with the GIA as to color but felt it was on the high side rather than the low. His megascope analysis was nearly identical to Whiteflash's Sarin and he appraised it as an AGS 0 cut. He said he could not say a single negative thing about this stone and that it is beautiful. I felt reassured that I was getting what I was paying for as to specifications.

I agree that he is high priced ($210 for a partial appraisal, another $200 if I wanted a replacement value--he charges by the carat). I guess he charges 5th Avenue prices.
I am happy to have an appraiser who does not just blindly go along with what the GIA report says or tell you what you want to hear. In a stone of this size, one shade lower would make a significant difference in value and I paid to get his expert opinion as to color and other specs and not just a rubber stamp of the GIA report.

 

[aljdewey]

Solange, I'd love to read what you write......can't you select a font that doesn't require a microscope?

 

[NoviceNYC]

I never said that there was anything wrong with Dave Wolf and his appraisal style. I would recommend him again. I respect the man for keeping to his guns and calling it as he saw it. I just said for insurance purposes I need a second opinion. Dave was terrific. He did his own evaluation of the stone and rated it better in polish and where the actual inclusions were (he felt one inclusion plotted by gia near the table was actually a reflection of the actual inclusion to the side by the girdle). On paper (minus the color) the stone looked great under his appraisal. Again, I paid for an opinion and I got it. Obviously it is on the low end of a G (close to H). But for the reasons I've already stated I am paying for a G and my ideal stone is a G and the experts at GIA also say G..he says H...an opinion that I respect and paid for. He is very good at what he does, picky and good.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/22/2004 1:57:56 PM aljdewey wrote:


Solange, I'd love to read what you write......can't you select a font that doesn't require a microscope?

----------------

I thought it was *my* eyes! Yeah, I have a real hard time reading as well.

 

[solange]

----------------
On 4/22/2004 3:11:56 PM fire&ice wrote:

----------------
On 4/22/2004 1:57:56 PM aljdewey wrote:








Solange, I'd love to read what you write......can't you select a font that doesn't require a microscope?

----------------

I thought it was *my* eyes! Yeah, I have a real hard time reading as well.
----------------

I do not know what font to select. I have tried several and do not get what I want. Any suggestions?

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/22/2004 7:44:08 PM solange wrote:

----------------
On 4/22/2004 3:11:56 PM fire&ice wrote:

----------------
On 4/22/2004 1:57:56 PM aljdewey wrote:





Solange, I'd love to read what you write......can't you select a font that doesn't require a microscope?

----------------

I thought it was *my* eyes! Yeah, I have a real hard time reading as well.
----------------

I do not know what font to select. I have tried several and do not get what I want. Any suggestions?
----------------

Hey There!

I can read it now!