Equal Specifications and Looks

[slimer]

I am in the market for a 1 carat round diamond. I already have the engagement setting, which is a Memoire. I am from the Boston area and from what I am seeing, Long''s, Kay''s jewelers etc that what I want is about $8500. On the internet a diamond with those $8500 specs are running for about $6000.

My question is... (2) diamonds with equal specifications will they look about the same (fire and sparkle) to the wearer glancing down on their finger?


BTW that $8500 price tag will get you a ... H, VS2, EX/EX, No Flr., with good dimensions on the depth and table, .96 weight.


Any comments or links to nice loose diamond sellers are appreciated.
Pete

 

[JohnQuixote]

Hello Pete,

Welcome to PriceScope.

The answer to your query could be lengthy

I will give a condensed version:

Cut is the component that has the greatest effect on a diamond''s appearance. The assessed color, clarity, polish and symmetry of a stone is important – along with knowing which lab or appraiser provided that assessment – but the actual proportions (particularly depth%, table% and crown and pavilion angles) will tell more about how a stone will perform than any other analytic data.

Example: A diamond of extremely good cut can appear to have a much higher color than a diamond of the same color grade with an average cut.

Therefore, the short answer to your question is no.

Based on the specs you gave I suggest that further research into cut proportions will yield great value for your money. The gem you have cited may have acceptable cut proportions, but if it does not you will discover that with knowledge gained here, and may proceed accordingly.

Hope this is helpful and, again, welcome!

Best,

 

[valeria101]

Date: 11/10/2004 11

9:37 PM
Author:slimer

My question is... (2) diamonds with equal specifications will they look about the same (fire and sparkle) to the wearer glancing down on their finger?

Depends on what those specifications are With table, depth, polish and symmetry ... No.

 

[slimer]

Many thanks to all that have replied... I am learning there is no rhythm or reason to diamond selection versus cost. That is… using the tools available like cut advisor and ideal scope, diamonds exhibiting great pictures (ideal scope) or numbers (cut advisor) do not always reflect higher prices (carat to carat and everything else equal in comparison like color, polish and clarity etc..) and visa versa.

In example… cut advisor might indicate "excellent" in all 4 categories, but ideal scope shows a less than excellent picture for the same diamond and visa versa. My visit to WhiteFlash only showed a small percentage of diamonds with actual numbers to crunch or pictures to view. I am not picking on WhiteFlash as they show more information about a diamond than most sites. If sites are unwilling to at least provide numbers to crunch how can a person make a logical choice? Also, to drop 8 grand on a 1 carat diamond, sight unseen, at a web site seems a bit risky, using measuring tools that are inconsistent, also is not very appealing.

Maybe it is just the engineer in me, but if you have tools that are suppose to correctly measure an object, should not those tools should measure with some degree of repeatability with each other? Is this diamond business all just a gimmick or did the boat sail without me?


Pete

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 11/14/2004 12:49:24 AM
Author: slimer

Many thanks to all that have replied... I am learning there is no rhythm or reason to diamond selection versus cost. That is… using the tools available like cut advisor and ideal scope, diamonds exhibiting great pictures (ideal scope) or numbers (cut advisor) do not always reflect higher prices (carat to carat and everything else equal in comparison like color, polish and clarity etc..) and visa versa.

In example… cut advisor might indicate ''excellent'' in all 4 categories, but ideal scope shows a less than excellent picture for the same diamond and visa versa. My visit to WhiteFlash only showed a small percentage of diamonds with actual numbers to crunch or pictures to view. I am not picking on WhiteFlash as they show more information about a diamond than most sites. If sites are unwilling to at least provide numbers to crunch how can a person make a logical choice? Also, to drop 8 grand on a 1 carat diamond, sight unseen, at a web site seems a bit risky, using measuring tools that are inconsistent, also is not very appealing.



Maybe it is just the engineer in me, but if you have tools that are suppose to correctly measure an object, should not those tools should measure with some degree of repeatability with each other? Is this diamond business all just a gimmick or did the boat sail without me?




Pete

Hello again Pete.

The boat is not sailing without you, but the tides can surely be confusing

There is no easy answer. Every diamond is subject to both analytic and aesthetic measure. The analytic details of craftsmanship and proportions may be measured indirectly, on paper. However, the aesthetics of optical performance can only be measured directly in the eyes of the viewer. A very basic example of aesthetic difference would be the difference between an "ideally" proportioned diamond with lower girdle facet lengths under 75% (much fire) or one with lgf lengths greater than 80% (much white light return). Each stone could receive an "ideal" rating. Each stone could have an excellent Ideal Scope footprint but in "real life" their appearance would be different in the eyes of the beholder.

Many of the regulars here who are not in the trade have remained involved because (as you have observed) the complexities of analytic (paper) versus aesthetic (live performance) can be juxtapposed only to a degree, and it is engaging to discuss and analyze those complexities. Personal taste is always the final measure.

My suggestion: If you find several "candidate" diamonds fitting your specifications on paper, post the details and let the consumers here comment on them. They are wise and, on the whole, yield objective information. The sarin reports, ideal scope images and HCA numbers - when in unison - are terrific for narrowing the field to a few final candidates.

Then: Always have a trusted vendor and/or independent appraiser look at your final candidates to verify both the statistics and the visual performance. Reputable vendors will have a guaranteed examination & return period to ensure you of getting the stone you judge best suited to your standards and taste.

Finally - if you would like more information from any vendor here please call and visit "live." I believe you will find the professionals and regulars of the PriceScope community helpful and willing to provide whatever you need to feel secure about purchasing via this medium.

Best,

 

[Rhino]

I''d ditto that Sir John,

It would be a little easier to assess visuals via paper *IF* all Sarin/OGI''s included all the minor facet details (such as lower girdles) on their reports (as well as variances). Most of the basic models out there don''t do it.

 

[Richard Sherwood]

In example… cut advisor might indicate 'excellent' in all 4 categories, but ideal scope shows a less than excellent picture for the same diamond and visa versa

Maybe it is just the engineer in me, but if you have tools that are suppose to correctly measure an object, should not those tools should measure with some degree of repeatability with each other?

Pete, some of the instruments will produce numbers which indicate the possible visual performance of a diamond, while others show the actual visual performance.

Instruments such as OGI or Sarin machines will give you numbers to crunch which should weed out the majority of poor performers and tell you if it is possible whether or not that particular diamond could be a winner. The numbers produced used in conjunction with the HCA (Holloway Cut Advisor), & AGS or AGA Cut Class Rankings will steer you in the right direction.

Instruments such as Idealscope, Brilliancescope and Isee2 will show you actual images that allow you to visually estimate the perfomance of a diamond.

One set of instruments from one camp does not necessarily replace the other. For example, if you find a diamond with a great Idealscope image, then you will want to take a close look at its "numbers" to make sure the technical aspects of the cut are on target (such as a girdle being thick enough to withstand setting).

By using lab reports to stay within the color and clarity you want, along with intelligent use of the theoretical and empirical predictors listed above, you should be able to narrow your search down to one or two diamonds which you can use the final and ultimate quality instrument on.....your eyes.

The extra time and effort you spend learning these things will save you thousands of dollars. Let's say it takes you two weeks before it "comes together" in your mind, and you save two thousand dollars. That's a thousand dollars extra a week you made with a minimal investment (an hour or two a night studying for two weeks).

Not only that, but you will have moved from the ranks of the uninformed to the ranks of an astute diamond aficionado, possibly developing a pleasurable lifelong appreciation for fine diamonds and gems.

 

[orbaya]

If you are in the Boston area, I recommend going to the Jewelry Exchange in Downtown Crossing. It is 7 floors of jewelry stores and you can get some great prices in there. Check it out!

 

[slimer]

I plan on going into the Jewelry Exchange Building either this week or next. Thanks everyone for their input... I now could surmise that diamond hunting is between judging fine art and mechanical design. I''m in trouble now , at least with the fine art part of it. Everyone here is very helpfull and I appreciate that very much

http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=7265267 Choice 1

http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=7320197 Choice 2

http://www.dirtcheapdiamonds.com/diamond_detail.cfm?did=7265265 Choice 3

https://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-821283.htm# Choice 4

https://www.whiteflash.com/round/Round-cut-diamond-821104.htm# Choice 5

What I am really looking for in a diamond is fire. If anyone gets a chance and wants to review and critic my 5 selections I would appreciate it. I will no doubt pick one of these stones IF I cannot get satisfaction at the Jewelry Building in Boston. I am enjoying this "looking for the perfect stone" very much... maybe too much so as I would like to loop and ideal scope the engagement rings on the fingers of my friends.

I am hanging around the H color range because frankly I cannot really see much difference between a F and J. I can see the difference looking sideways at the stone, but not top down. I want my clarity to be in the VS1/VS2 range. I have seen some pretty stones that are SI1, but looking through the loop it looks like someone was skating across the table. Mind you these were brand name jewelry dealers at the local mall. I only want to pay a price that is fair. I found it odd that in the mall all diamonds were either in the $4000 or $8000 range for around a carat... nothing in between.


Pete

 

[valeria101]

Fire... well, so do I

Too bad none of these tools measure or predict it very well. At some point, I was pretty convinced that H&A cuts with rather wide and prominent star patterns (much like 8* s look under the ''scope) are the more fiery of the ideals. This means that your choice #1 and #3 are fine and #2 is out of the race. I could not see the Idealscope image of the first Whiteflash stone, and the EGL cert of the second does not contain such info anyway.

There is a rather unusual breed called "fiery ideal cuts": these are the deeper cut H&As with less than tops light return but lots of fire - not to many around.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 11/14/2004 1:55:12 AM
Author: Rhino

I''d ditto that Sir John,

It would be a little easier to assess visuals via paper *IF* all Sarin/OGI''s included all the minor facet details (such as lower girdles) on their reports (as well as variances). Most of the basic models out there don''t do it.

RhinoKnight,
Agreed, especially in this circumstance:
Slimer, if you are looking for a great fire in the stone you will want to lean towards shorter lower girdle facet %. These result in thicker pavilion mains (the mirrors which drive light return) and allow for greater dispersion and colored light return from the diamond. As we have noted, it''s difficult to get that degree of detail from some vendors.
Also, an advisory: If an abundance of fire is the direction you wish to go, stay away from "Brilliance Scope" data. It is our overall position that the device is not relevant or accurate in the first place, but the reports it produces are especially misleading when evaluating diamonds designed for fire, since it rewards thin pavilion mains and overages of white light return.

Best,