Are you an expert? (looks like a good deal to me!) 1.92C, I, VS1, Ideal cut.

[wildnat04]

Hey everyone. I registered solely so I could post this.

I''ve been scouring these forums, and they are certainly a sight for sore eyes after my long and exhausting search through the mysterious underworld of diamond buying. I am in search of a diamond engagement ring for a forthcoming proposal.

It seems everyone is big on the vendors associated with PS. I found this diamond on Blue Nile and reserved it. I could find no others on any other sites that caught my eye like this one.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamonds_details.asp?__fun_frm=i&pid=LD01099143&filter_id=0

Could anyone give some general observations on the value and quality based on the GIA report and price? When I spoke to a representative on the phone, they said they had no available Sarin reports or other such supplemental things.

Thank you in advance for any help you can give. You do not know how much you''d be helping me out!

Oh, and I think my priorities are "sparkle" (brilliance, fire, etc), followed by size.

 

[boston_jeff]

Date: 7/7/2007 12:55:19 AM
Author:wildnat04


Could anyone give some general observations on the value and quality based on the GIA report and price? When I spoke to a representative on the phone, they said they had no available Sarin reports or other such supplemental things.


Thank you in advance for any help you can give. You do not know how much you''d be helping me out!


Oh, and I think my priorities are ''sparkle'' (brilliance, fire, etc), followed by size.

Very hard to help without those "supplemental" things, or at the least photographs, but for what it''s worth HCA really likes it (HCA=1 and is an AGS0 candidate).

The I color is the only thing that would concern me-- it is likely not a problem (I color in a well-cut RB is usually OK), but without being able to see it for myself I would be nervous.

 

[snlee]

It gets an HCA score of 1, which is good. But it would be hard for me to buy this diamond without any other images.

Have you considered going down in clarity? Personally, I think VS1 is overkill. You could get a larger ideal cut diamond for around the same price.

Have you seen these from WF?

2.16 ct J VS2 Round Ideal Cut, around $16,488 after 3% bank wire/PS discount

2.288 ct J SI2 A Cut Above H&A, around $15,934 after 5% bank wire/PS discount

A well cut J, which these are, can face up very white! If you're interested, I'd check with WF if they are eye clean.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

I say keep looking, but it def looks like one that might be worth bringing home or having sent to somewhere that you can view it (if BN could offer you this service somehow).

I did a search and almost fell for a good looking JA diamond, until I realized it had a pretty funky pav angle. I can''t imagine paying 16k with only the GIA report, though, unless you have a bunch of money. I am not really sure what the idea is to leave that is the sole source of information, but it just seems pretty wild to me.

You should keep looking online and locally though, and I will run some searches for fun, see if I can find a minimal decrease in size and appreciable increase in color! that might make it worth it and then you could get more information before the purchase!

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

I am not an expert

but it looks like a very nice find price wise and quality wise, if you are comfortable with an I color and if you have alot of faith in the BN returns, then it might be a great deal. I myself made a return to BN that went smoothly, but I also didn''t entrust them with 16,000 dollars! I personally think you should take a few weeks at least, or even a few days, and call Angara and James Allen and others, but I noticed those two had alot of the diamonds I will mention in a molment.

I imagine it would be really nice to get over the 2ct mark, just so she can have a diamond that is "over two cts" instead of "a little under 2 cts"

Some of the diamond selections they have at those two are a good bit over 2ct in your price range, and some just a tad over 2 ct, but all of them about .22-.6mm larger, which should be a moderate to fairly noticeable increase (though in this size I imagine that the diamonds closer to 2ct don''t have much of a visual increase, I haven''t had the opportunity to inspect many 2cts, to say the least), so of course the larger face up size is nice and goes hand in hand with the ct.


The real issue though is that to hit that mark is going to take some hunting, but if you find some then you can get alot more information on light performance, appearance, and accuracy of the lab report via In-house Gemologist''s analysis and another Sarin Analysis just to confirm the dimensions within a particular margin of error---after all, any lab can make a mistake.

but In order to break that 2ct barrier it looks like you will have to drop down to SI1. This might be a difficult barrier mentally but the fact is that some SI1''s will be completely eye clean from all angles. In this case, imagining it in my mind at least, hitting over the 2ct mark is better for the mind than having a mostly loupe clean inclusion like the VS1. Thus I think it would behoove you to call angara and have them email you a bunch of certs on some I SI1''s and have them help you select some that might be eye clean from all angles. Do the same thing for James Allen, though you can actually view all the certs at James Allen without calling, I think you probably should. JA had some that looked really promising at first, but on looking at the magnified images it looks like there are either feathers along the girdle that are PROBABLY visible to the naked eye from the side, or some black inclusions under the table that are probably visible to the naked eye. However, they have several there also that might be totally eyeclean, so you should def find out before committing to this one. Will your gf care more about not having invisible inclusions that can fairly easily be seen with a loupe or having a larger diamond that is over 2cts?


Other than that, looks like a great deal if only you could get a little more info before paying 16,000 dollars! I just can''t imagine paying out that kind of money without seeing it, I guess that means one day I will end up stuck at a local store huh!

 

[Lorelei]

This BN diamond may look very nice, we prefer to have Idealscope Images in conjunction with the numbers which BN don't provide at this moment, however they do have a great return policy if the diamond arrives and it doesn't sing to you!

ETA - by the way, I am not an expert; this is mainly a consumer forum although we do have many experts here generally in the trade, you can identify them by the signature at the bottom of their posts

 

[phoenixgirl]

What I like about BlueNile is that almost all of their stones have reports that you can look at. While a few of the vendors specializing in H&A stones have sarin reports, etc., most online vendors just list the basic stats of the stone. With the new GIA reports and AGS reports you get the crown and pavilion angles, which is what the sarin would give you anyway.

That said, if you''re looking for I VS1 under 2 carats, this is a great stone. You can purchase with confidence. However, I''d probably go down to VS2 to bump myself over the magic 2 carat mark:
http://www.bluenile.com/diamonds_details.asp?__fun_frm=i&pid=LD01070234&filter_id=0

But only you know what your priorities are. If you want VS1 for peace of mind, go for it!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I like VS1, but I prefer G or H color. The other concern I have is that Blue Nile does not have a trade-up policy. Later on, if you wish you had gotten a G or H or even E!, you can exchange at the full value of what you paid if you go with a vendor like Good Old Gold or WhiteFlash. That and the fact that the latter also have the extra evaluations on the stones is the reason we bought from them.

Here are a couple to compare:

http://www.whiteflash.com/round_ideal_cut/Round-Ideal-Cut-cut-diamond-283314.htm (1.71 G VS1, $16,606 with wire and PS discount)

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/2372/ (1.72 I VS2, $13,085)

 

[Ellen]

Date: 7/7/2007 9:16:04 AM
Author: phoenixgirl
What I like about BlueNile is that almost all of their stones have reports that you can look at. While a few of the vendors specializing in H&A stones have sarin reports, etc., most online vendors just list the basic stats of the stone. With the new GIA reports and AGS reports you get the crown and pavilion angles, which is what the sarin would give you anyway.

That said, if you''re looking for I VS1 under 2 carats, this is a great stone. You can purchase with confidence. However, I''d probably go down to VS2 to bump myself over the magic 2 carat mark:
http://www.bluenile.com/diamonds_details.asp?__fun_frm=i&pid=LD01070234&filter_id=0

But only you know what your priorities are. If you want VS1 for peace of mind, go for it!

The Sarin gives you the lowest to highest numbers on an angle, besides the average. A GIA report only gives the average, and rounds them at that. So a GIA report will only tell you part of the story (and even that isn''t exact), so you do need a Sarin to tell you the rest on a GIA report.

I will echo, on a purchase of this size, I would have to have more info too. You have been given some great choices in this thread!

 

[Independent Gal]

I would say, order the diamond and look at it with your own two eyes and under different lighting. If you like it, keep it. You''ll only be out a few bucks for shipping if you don''t like it!

This works best if you''ve looked at a lot of other diamonds, of course, so you have some basis for comparison. You could take it in to a jeweler, if you haven''t, and ask to see some of their stones to compare.

I have bought from Blue Nile and was extremely satisfied with both the stone and the service.

 

[wildnat04]

WOW. Thanks everyone. I consider each and everyone my very own personal Ralph Nader. (That''s a good thing). After weighing all of the good advice on this thread, I opted to:

* Make the jump up to 2.00 carat because price didn''t seem prohibitive (previously, I had read an article saying you should go just under "magic weights" for good deals),
* Make the dip down to SI1 to a diamond that BN has assured me is "eyeclean," according to a consumer-requested jeweler inspection about one week ago,
* Keep the I color but delve into the world of Medium Blue Fluorescence, and
* Keep the rest of the ideal stats, plus an Excellent HCA Score.

And bonus: It is 2K less.

Here is the diamond I now have on hold, and it looks like I''ll buy by Monday to bring it home, inspect, and appriase.

http://www.bluenile.com/diamonds_details.asp?__fun_frm=i&pid=LD01094165&filter_id=0

Thanks again for your wise words.

 

[snlee]

The table is a bit larger than I like but other than that it looks great. It sure gets a great HCA score! 1.1 with ex, ex, ex, ex! It's hard to get a ex on spread but great because your diamond will look larger than a 2 carat! It's a good idea to look at it with your own two eyes and under different lighting to see if you love it.

 

[Ellen]

It has potential, but that''s about all one can say. What struck me is the price, pretty cheap. Not sure why, mabe the flo, although that seems a pretty big discount. Or the cut...

Just for comparison sake.


http://www.whiteflash.com/hearts_arrows/A-Cut-Above-H-A-cut-diamond-68015.htm

http://204.17.89.15/diamond/3049/

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Hey, it is an amazing deal to be sure.

But before you buy I would recommend having them specifically check it from the side. I know I get irritating saying that as it is generally about one or two little dots that would be difficult to see. However, in this case there are a number of crystals and needles under the table, which if black may all be reflecting around in the pavilion so that it looks like the diamond is LOADED with dirt from a profile shot, even though you can''t see them from the face up position.

or it may be totally eye clean from all angles, but with a fair number of inclusions under the table, I just want to reiterate to make sure you specify that IF it is a concern for you, with with an Ering I think it should be.

Also, I would recommend taking some time to search out LGF numbers and 34degree crown angles. I don''t know enough myself to say anything but I know that the 85 star with 34 crown angle and a 14% crown height is an unfamiliar combination to me. I haven''t seen it in many of the diamonds I have been looking through, and I have looked through a number just for fun. It might be worth it to do some research on it before purchasing .

Also, I don''t think you should put too much faith in medium blue fluo, if you are unhappy with an I color. I will have to hunt for the link later but I remember finding some announcement by GIA where they discussed their finding on fluo and determined that medium and lower will have an inconsequential effect on color and appearance of the diamond. But it has been a while and many readings since then, so I may be forgetting something.

But if it doesn''t look HORRIBLE from the side this looks from here to be an incredible.

 

[wildnat04]

Was just told by BN that they cannot do an "eyeclean check" from the side on SI1 diamonds, because, due to its clarity, it likely WILL have visible inclusions from a profile view. If I wanted a profile-clean diamond, I''d likely need to go VS2 or higher.

Tell me more about the "dirtiness" that could result from the side. It seems a bit concerning.

Also, the diamond has an 85% LGF. This seems to be be a matter of personal preference. Thoughts?

Oh, and I just ordered a loupe from amazon.com. This gemology stuff is a bit addictive.

 

[kcoursolle]

The stone appears to be well cut. The price is also very reasonable. The major downside of BN is that they don''t have an upgrade policy while many other ps verndors do. They also provide less information, but with an excellent return policy this is less of an issue.

Personally, I would go down in clarity to the VS2/SI1 range and either go up in color to an H, save money, or go bigger.

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Thats the problem with BN. But tell them that you want them to look at it from the side and give you a good idea of what it looks like. I mean they want to tell you in a 14,000 dollar purchase that they won't look at the side for you and tell you how it looks? that just pisses me off you know?

Sure, in a 2ct SI1 it is unlikely it will be totally eye clean from the side, but it might be difficult to see them, there might be only 1 or two small inclusions noticeable or the vast majority of inclusions under the table may be white and essentially a non-issue and when put in a six prong even she would probably never notice.

OR the crystals under the tabe may be reflecting in the stone and make it look like it is full of dirt that can never be washed off. So honestly, its just crazy to not help out a little more and be more obliging in a purchase this size you know? I would def call them back an ask for a better explanation of the color of the inclusions and appearance of the inclusions from different angles and if they are reflecting, while being polite of course. Not necessarily checking for "eye cleanliness" but to have a better understanding of what it is going to look like. You can always buy it and check it out--which is obviously what they are pushing for--but really, they should be able to do that much.

However, I ran another search based on non-ideals and I found alot of even cheaper than this non-ideal cut H SI'1 in the 13k range.

Got to this link:

Here for the search

on the left hand side you see the search engine?

Change the ct range from 2ct-2.6 cts

Leave clarity and color alone first--you can change it later as you want.

Then for depth % enter 60% for minimum, 62.3% for maximum.

for table leave 53% minimum and enter 59% for maximum (that is really a bit larger than "ideal" max but so is the one at BN, and if it is getting you a cleaner stone of higher color...and it is only 1% point higher than the one you are looking for and you get better service, then it shouldn't matter)

Then run the search.

After the search is run you see the row with prices? click on the blue "Price" at the top of the row and it will organize the diamonds from cheapest to highest prices. In that way you can sort through them more easily using budget as your most limiting quality. Change color to I later and see if you find anything. Some of them have to have the reports requested but you will find a lot of good options, cheaper to equal price, higher color, comparable cut quality and better service. I'll take a minute to check them out before I go back to looking for a good deal on noise canceling headphones!(I think I might just hold out on that purchase until I get to Japan and hope their Audio Technica's are a bit cheaper than here!

)

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Here are a few I found with very good or better symmetry and polish, the below prices are based on PS discount which for some businesses such as WF require a money wire transfer for and others such as JA do not require a money wire transfer.

Also, as others have mentioned, you might want to consider upgrade policies and how you feel about that. I don't know all the details but WF supposedly has some good upgrade policies and JA has at least a limited upgrade policy:



13,009 From WF I SI1

13,064 WF I SI1

13,150 JA ISI1, this one has a thick girdle, which might be the reason why it isn't excellent

13.7 I VS2--don't miss that, VS2 for less money at WF with a potentially excellent cut It also looks like this diamond is available for other vendors so you would have your choice. It is listed for 13.8 with JA who does not require a money wire transfer and should be able to get IS images and other data free of charge, I think WF charges you if they recommend it and you don't buy it right?



13.9 JA H SI1

14.3 JA H SI1 This one has a grading report and if the inclusion under the table is white it may very well be very eye clean.

14.3 WF ES I VS2 Strong fluo this one has a report and the plot looks very possible, but I noticed the crown angle is very steep and the pavilion angle a bit shallow, but WF will def help and give IS images, etc.


14.5 for 2.19cts WF Expert Selection I SI1 The plot on this one looks very promising as well, but again I noticed some unusual angles that might cause a problem, but DEF worth looking in to.

14.9 WF I SI1 2.17 ct

There are, as you will see when you search for yourself, alot more than this to choose from.
and remember, these are not ACA's, but they are a def good place to start looking for TOTALLY eye clean, and almost totally eye clean diamonds, and then have the angles, light performance, and so on inspected a little more carefully. I of course did not go through and inspect angles but rather just took a little bit of time to pick out a few of the H-I VS2-SI1 groupings to be looked at that seemed based on first appearances to be well cut. I hope it helps. It was fun anyway. There might be better optoins, so keep doing searches with different parameters, run searches with similar cut % with G color SI1, H VS2, limiting the searches and see what you find. Then once you narrow down a few totally eyeclean, or almost totally eyeclean stones inspect angles more throughly, view any IS images available and get help from the reps at the website, then once it is down to 2 or 3 hold them and put it up here for us to comment!

But I say there are alot of good options, no need to stick with BN if they don't want to help.

Also remember that some stones may be available to more than one vendor (if it is not an In-house diamond), so see what the others have to offer in way of prices and information as well.

 

[phoenixgirl]

I think it sounds like a wonderful stone, inclusions cooperating. I/SI1 is my personal sweetspot for beauty and savings. I even went below that for my earrings and pendant (K SI2 sizes 0.37 and 0.52), but I''m looking for an I SI1 stone for a pendant for my mom.

That WF stone is just not comparable price-wise because it''s a branded H&A stone. Your stone could very well have arrows (my pendant did, which I ordered blind), but since it''s not being sold as an H&A and doesn''t have the name-recognition of A Cut Above, it doesn''t command the same price. I wouldn''t let it concern you.

Let us know what you think when you see it!

 

[WorkingHardforSmallRewards]

Date: 7/7/2007 11:52:04 AM
Author: wildnat04

* Keep the I color but delve into the world of Medium Blue Fluorescence, and

As to the medium Blue fluo, here is one of the articles I read:

Be aware, it is an Adobe document, you know how those can be...

in the conclusions of the article it is written:

"One interesting aspect of this study was that the nontrade observers could not make meaningful distinctions. For this group, which would be considered most representative of
the jewelry-buying public, fluorescence had no overall effect on color appearance or transparency. For the experienced observers, we found that, in general, the strength of fluorescence had no widely perceptible effect on the color appearance of diamonds
viewed table-down (as is typical in laboratory and trade grading). In the table-up position (as is commonly encountered in jewelry), diamonds described as strongly or very strongly fluorescent were, on average, reported as having a better color appearance than less fluorescent stones. In this study, blue fluorescence was found to have even
less effect on transparency. These observations confirm GIA GTL’s experience grading millions of diamonds over the decades."

Note that they do not mention medium blue as having any affect. I haven't been able to relocate it now but I have also read a transcript of an announcement from a GIA representative at some particular conference, the details of which I do not recall, where he said that medium and below fluo has no visible affect on color in natural lighting circumstances. Most likely he was referring to this study though.