Would you move?

[jetmal]

Hi Everyone,

I am having a moral dilemma here, and I thought I would post to see what others would do in a similair situation. I'm not asking to be judged, and dont want to start any huge forum fights.....

OK, 2 years ago we built a beautiful new home, in a newer subdivision. In th past 2 years, the other lots have filled in with neighbors. Now, these neighbors come from different cultural backgrounds, and live their lives very differently. For instance....they sleep all day, and then let their children ages 2-5 yrs old, run around in the streets at 11 :00 pm, while we are trying to sleep. The husband does not look at or speak to women, and his wife does not come out of the house, even to watch her young kids play outside. She also does not know english.
Another family has old furniture, boxes, and basically junk all over their porch, and driveway...we have a homeowners assoc. but they have done nothing despite all the other neighbors complaints. The get live chickens delivered each week, and they put them in to their house. They are growing tomatos in the front yard....next to the sidewalk to enter their home....big ole tomatoe plants with the big wire cages, right in front!!
The have over 6 cars in the drieway and onto the street each day....I'm not sure how many people live in that house, but I'm guessing at least 10-15.
Again, we are not predujice.....but we are not used to this, and its very different.
And, now right next to us, in the next few weeks we have another family moving in....and we tried to introduce ourselves and say hi, and they were very quiet and short with us. They too show up with 10-15 family memebers, so again, I'm not sure who will be all living there.

The second part to the story has to do with debt. We have our first mortgage. Then we have a line of equity, which is what we used to finish the basement, do all our concrete and landscaping. So, we do have a hefty sized payment each month. This debt bothers my DH. What he would like to do is sell this house, and use the large profit we will make to pay off that home equity loan. Then also using the profit fromt he sale, he'd like to put some money down on an older, less expensive home, and then use the rest of the profits to "fix it up" to our liking.

I am devastated.

I love my home, and it breaks my heart to have to leave it. I picked everything out myself, and it is "us". My hubby can build houses, and I now that he can 100% make an older home look great again....but .....I dont know if I can do it.

The home he is considering was built in the 70's...its a tri-level, and it would need all new flooring, carpeting, a whole kitchen remodel, etc... it has a finished basement, but we would gut it and start over. He likes this home because it is a block away from the kids school. It is in a nice older , established neighborhood, with sidewalks and trees (something our current one does not have).

I agree, its great to not have debt....but I think alot of people have a 1st and 2nd, mortg. and that it is not THAT terrible. Am I wrong??? And, I am worried that we will need more money than he thinks to "fix" this house up...and we will eventually end up right where we are now, only with a lesser house to show for it. Know what I mean?

And yes, I guess I have gotten abit materialistic....I do worry what people will think of us..."they went from that, to THAT!?!"

anyone been in a similair situation????
thanks for listening.
ETA: I should add....my ideal situation would be to live in that older neighborhood, but with a nicer, newer home. which does not exist. all the homes there were built in the 70's....and there are no empty lots either. My DH is not "making" me move or anything like that.....its just what he would prefer to do...but it will be a mutual decision...but there is alittle bit of tension between us right now becuz of the difference on opinions.

 

[Ellen]

Jet, I''ll keep it short and sweet. I know what you''re saying. We have lived in our home 18 years. With 3 kids and me staying home to raise them, it took us this long to basically replace/redecorate everything we wanted to, the way we wanted it. It''s really perfect.

But alas, we are beginning to have neighbor issues too, I''ll leave it at that. My concern is that the issues will grow, and there may come a point where we couldn''t sell our home if we wanted to. Which leaves us wondering if we should move now. Saddening thought...

But the bottom line, for me is, you can change a home, you can''t change a neighborhood.

Just my thoughts. So sorry you''re in this situation.

 

[lizz]

I would move to the neighborhood near your kids'' school. You''ll pay off some debt. You don''t have to fix up the tri-level home all at once. Do it little by little, as you can afford it.

No matter where you move, there will be neighbor issues. Our wonderful neighbors who really are great parked their big, honkin'' motor home in front of our property yesterday and today. It''s annoying, but you have to decide what you can tolerate and what you can''t.

 

[Madam Bijoux]

I would move. Not only because of the neighbors, but also because your next house will be an older house. I live in a well-established "old" town and my house, which is a fixer-upper, was built in 1926. I''ve seen new houses get cracks in the walls after 5 years, and the siding has fallen off. All the contractors I''ve dealt with say they wouldn''t buy a house that was made after the 1970''s because the older houses are more durable and better built. You can''t beat a neighborhood that has friendly, caring neighbors. Being one block away from the kids'' school will save you a lot of time and worry, too.

 

[february2003bride]

Jet-

I totally understand! 2.5 years ago we moved into our new house. We built it through Centex, picked everything out, it was built for US and we love it. We, fortunately, have great neighbors, great schools, new neighborhood, etc. But our mortgage is feeling like it''s too high for us. When we moved in, we had a 5 year ARM. Just before our 1 year here, we refinanced to a 30 year fixed and our mortgage jumped up over $800.00. Add in 2 car payments, HOA fees, car insurance and utilities plus 3 kids...

We''ve contemplated moving to another state, moving to aother home locally, or building a townhouse in our neighborhood so our kids wouldn''t switch from the wonderful school and their friends. But homes aren''t really selling here anymore and I feel the same as you do- that people would question why we went from a huge single family to a smaller, older single family home or a townhouse.

Also, remember that as people landscape and your HOA plants trees and landscapes, your neighborhood will grow and feel more "homey". A neighborhood near us that is about 6 years old is flourishing with tall trees, full bushes, flowers, etc. Our neighborhood is getting there

I had told DH that it''s time to hop off the fence. We either stay and not discuss it again or start looking to move. We''ve decided to stay. We''re here for the long haul (15+ years) and I''ll be going back to work in about 2-3 years, the cars will be paid off, etc., so it''ll feel better financially soon.

I will say that if we wern''t really good friends with our neighbors and their kids, if the schools were terrible, or the neighborhood was going downhill, we would move. Your home is your home but it''s not worth it if you can''t stand the environment around you.

Good luck!

 

[Ellen]

Date: 8/6/2006 12:21:44 PM
Author: Madam Bijoux

*snipped*

All the contractors I''ve dealt with say they wouldn''t buy a house that was made after the 1970''s because the older houses are more durable and better built.

Interesting, I''ve said the same thing myself.

 

[asscherisme]

I would move. Why have big debt when you don''t love the neighborhood.

We moved last year simply because we outgrew our old house. Meanwhile we had awful neighbors in our old house. I did not realized how much stress they caused us until we were gone. Now it is SO refreshing to not have neighbor stress. Not to say you won''t have them again if you move, but don''t underestimate neighbor stress.

Now our neighbors here are not perfect. And we have a woman on the corner with 7 kids who NEVER watches them. I worry about them being hit by a car or kidnapped or simply hurt. And I''m thankful they are not next door to me.

 

[perry]

If you are looking long term - it is correct that most older houses were built better than the newer ones. Their are exceptions to this so check things out (there are shody built older homes, and a few good built newer ones - but not on the cheap end). Also, some older houses develope problems as well.

I see several issues:

Neighbor issues: At some point all of us deal with this, at which point do you move for resolution? That is a presonal choice, but in most cases an understandable one. However, keep in mind that they can also develop where you move to - unless you move out in the country where you can''t see your neighbors (something I have thought of). I have known people who moved from the "frying pan" into a "fire."

Money issues: In the long term - you will get farther ahead in life by reducing your debt load (even lifestly) and start saving. Target 15% of your income up front (first thing you pay) into retirement savings and you will have the money you need later on for things. An older house, with some renovations, makes a lot of sense. Keep in mind that you do not have to do everything at once - and can extend things out a few years (last year I painted the house, this year its a new boiler, next year... I have about a 10 year plan - the most economical way to do it).

Other issues: Don''t worry about the Joneses. The only people who are really going to be intriqued beyond a simple inquiry as to your houseing change are people who are stuck up. I doubt that you wish to be one of those stuck up people - so why worry about what they think. 10 or 20 years from now those same people will almost certainly be wondereing why you have such a great life and family compared to theirs....

Things to Remember:

1) A well cut small diamond will outshine a larger poorly cut one. The same is true of an house.

2) Life is a journey, not a destination (and you will not age with fullfillment unless you understand that). Have a great journey with your house.

Perry

 

[movie zombie]

i''m with perry.... neighborhoods change all the time.....and, perry, even in the country where you can''t see your neighbor there can be neighbor issues.

movie zombie

 

[ladykemma]

golly, where is suze orman when we need her?

i can only speak to the neighbor issue. five years ago the demographics of my neighborhood changed. I was scared at first but it has turned OK. the only problems are with the juvenile boys, and our 24 hr neighborhood cop watches them constantly. out property values have gone up, not down. i actually like my neighbors more now because they/we all hang out in the front yard in the evenings, and I feel safer knowing the women are home all day and they do keep a sharp watch on the street and on all the kids. I get invited to their functions and i invite to mine.

it feels homey and friendly. when it was all new, no one came out of their house, not even to say hello. The neighborhood is now mostly "up and coming" hispanic, and all the other races mixed in.

i just spent for a 50 year roof so we are here to stay. subject to change if crime goes up, (which it has not.) three cops live on our street. when they put their house up for sale, so will I.

i don't know about you, but our HOA has limits on the numbers of people who can reside in the dwelling. also what landscaping can be done, and cars parked. Is it time to telll he HOA to do thier job!

we have the HOA from heck! god forbid you forget to pull your trash can in.

edited to add: I live debt free and encourage others to do so as well. no mortgage, no credit card debt, no nothing. it was very free-ing to just write out a check for the roof on wednesday.

 

[lizz]

Now what about these chickens? Aren't there city ordinances against keeping them?

 

[msdarlinjoy]

Hi Jetmal ~

First let me say ... "I feel for you!"

I do understand what your feeling.

I myself grew up in a multi-cultural family, and we too lived in an area that was multi-cultural. Some of the families were "Leave it to Beaver" and some were like "Ozzy from hell"! There were some multi-cultural families that were wonderful and you felt safe going over to their home''s to play, and there were some that were not. We learned at a very early age who you associated with, and who you didn''t & why. It doesn''t feel very good knowing that your "neighborhood" is surrounded by people who sometimes "don''t care" about much. My parents finally had enough, and we moved to Oregon, from San Diego.

What I have seen and learned over the years of my life is that it doesn''t matter what color you are, what religion you are, what your orientation is ... my goodness, there is "trash" in every social class and all you have to do is "look" and you will see it. There are some area''s that are better than others.

Personally, I know how awesome it would be to live in a "brand new" development, where all the houses looked a certain way, and very appealing to the eye, and everything was new! However, I wouldn''t want it if it meant that I had a huge expensive mortgage. I like having the financial freedom knowing that I have leway, a little elbow room to do things that I like, and not have to worry about how am I going to pay for this unexpected bill or that unpredicted emergency.

I currently live in a home that is about 50 yrs old. It was always taken care of, and over the years I always seem to find something that I fix and make newer and more "me". My home is in an older, nicer established neighborhood that had the best schools in the district. That was very important to me in the beginning because I knew someday, I would have kids and want them to be surrounded by others who "cared" about life, and how to live life respectfully, etc. My kids now will be 15 and starting High School. All their friends have parents that think like I do for the most part, responsible, compasionate, etc...

Now, I don''t live in the most expensive part of my neighborhood, however, it is still nice, and the people here, are social and generally speaking, have all their antenae''s hooked on properly and pointing in a respectable upwards direction. It really is a wonderful feeling when you "can" casually talk to your neighbors when going to get the mail, get the trash can, watering your flowers, or seeing eachother at the store and briefly chatting about how little Jr. is doing in school. It is this kind of atmosphere that security and trust are established, and friendships can develop and blossom.

I had to make a decision, and the decision that I made was, that I would much rather live in a neighborhood that "cared" about eachother ... invite neighbors over for BBQ''s or offer a pitcher of Lemonade over the fence when we saw them working hard on their backyard. I just thought that I could make my "older" house "seem" newer by remodeling, and that way I could make it "me" and have the wonderful neighborhood relationship that I desired for myself and my family.

The other thing that I do like is that I do not have an astronomical mortgage payment, and I do have the flexibility of doing or buying things that some of my other friends do not have because they are a slave to their house payment.

I think it might help if you sat down and did a pro/con list of your neighborhood that you presently live in versus the older more established neighborhood that your husband is thinking about ... you might more clearly see what issues or characteristics are more important to you versus others. This might help you be more comfotable either staying where you are at, or being more open and comfortable with the thought of moving.

I have always thought that the next time I moved, I would take the time to knock on each persons door (try to aim for about 8 people surrounding the house I was interested in), and introduce myself as a "perspective buyer", and ask them what they liked and disliked about their neighborhood. If they could change anything, what would they change and why. A friend of mine did this at her mother''s request, and she learned far more about the neighborhood than she wanted, but it did give her a very clear picture of what happens when your not just randomly driving by.

Gosh, I hope things get better for you ... take care and keep us updated.

Have a wonderful day!

 

[msdarlinjoy]

Date: 8/6/2006 5:42:46 PM
Author: lizz
Now what about these chickens? Aren''t there city ordinances against keeping them?

Hi Lizz ~

You would be very surprised about city ordinances!

Ok, in my city, did you know that your neighbor can have 3 dogs, as many cats as they want, and you can have as many geese as you want, the list goes on!

Your neighbor can work on their car in the garage and make as much racket as they wish; grinding ... sanding ... hammering ... just as long as they aren''t doing it as a side business!

They do have ordinances re: health, like you can''t have garbage bags just laying around, even if it is just grass clippings. You can''t leave your car parked in a spot for 30 days without it being moved.

Some of the "city" ordinances are logical, and others seem way out there!

I am sure that these live chickens are being delivered to be butcherd and then put in the freezer. I would hope that they aren''t trying to raise them in the house, but you never know these days!

We used to live in San Diego, and there was a family that would barter his carpenter skills for chickens, and one day a pig came ... their freezer from what I was told was always full of some kind of meat to feed the family.

Have a great day!

 

[ladykemma]

also regarding the chickens-- there are some religions where they have to be butchered a certain way or can''t eat them . kosher, middle eastern (word? starts with an H)

if they don''t have the special market nearby, may have to do it themselves.

 

[JulieN]

halal

 

[hlmr]

Yes, I would move, and quickly. Sounds like there are more pros than cons to moving.

Good luck and I hope things work out for the best for you!

 

[jetmal]

thanks everyone for your replies! It really helps to read everyone''s perspectives.
keep em coming!

 

[codex57]

If your HOA doesn''t enforce the rules, the rules can become uneneforceable. If you really want to give the HOA thing a try, I''d pay a lawyer to write some stern letter to the HOA and tell them to start enforcing the rules.

However, I''m with the others. I''d move. The neighbors are a small part of it, but the main thing is the money. Sure, lots of people may have 2nd mortgages, but it doesn''t mean it''s necessarily a smart thing. It''s like credit card debt. Lots of people have it, but it doesn''t mean it''s smart. I''d really crunch the numbers and if it''s a pretty big difference, I''d move. The being 1 block from the kids'' school is a big plus to me.

This is your home. You gotta be happy living there. I know you love how your house looks now, but you can replicate that. Your neighbors are something you can''t just rip up and throw out. So far, it doesn''t sound like your HOA is gonna do anything to help you in that regards and pretty soon, they''re going to be toothless.

 

[movie zombie]

yep, its the $$$ thing, imo. just because others live debt ridden doesn''t mean i want to.

movie zombie

 

[ocbride2007]

You should live in a place that makes you happy, but I think that you really need to weigh the pros and cons of each option, as others have suggested, to find what truly makes you and your entire family happy.

On another note - if I''m not mistaken, homeowner association rules are actually legal covenants that are tied to the land. If the association is not responding to your complaints, it''s likely your legal right to enforce these guidelines, since the violation of them influences the value of your house (I am sure most new buyers would be put off if they knew there were live chickens down the street). So you could always do the bit of threatening legal action, or just gently inform them that you know your rights, and maybe they''ll work a bit harder to correct it. I am sure there are other neighbors who are upset by these violations, and the last thing they would want is for someone to file a lawsuit. I''m not completely clear on the laws.. but I know these rules are often tied up in the law, so you may as well use that to your advantage.

On the other hand... ever seen that X-Files episode where the homeowners association conjures up a monster that crawls out of the ground to kill violating homeowners? Maybe you could call up one of those to scare em into submission

Good luck with whatever you decide!!

 

[cpster]

I would move. It really sounds like you aren''t comfortable with how the neighborhood is evolving. It doen''s really matter if the neighbors are from different cultural backgrounds, you would still be bothered by what''s going on even if they were from the same race as you.

You could try the HOA route before moving if you really like the place.

 

[jetmal]

Hi everyone,

thanks for all the comments. well, we are still trying to figure out what to do. I guess I am coming around to the idea of moving alittle more than before.

PROS
- it would feel alittle "freeing" to have the extra money monthly. (about $800 extra)
- it would be great for my kids to walk around the block to get to school instead of having to take the school bus(although they love the bus!)
- I would enjoy the sidewalks and huge trees that line the street
- hopefully better neighbors ( if we do put in an offer,I WILL go door to door meeting people and asking how they like the neighborhood, etc...)
- I would be a block away from each of my two friends...our hubbies are firefighters so they are gone at work ALOT, so we all hang out alot and help each other out....
- I really like remodeling projects, picking out new stuff, etc....
- DH said we would have plenty of $ for the remodel project, PLUS an inground pool (something we''ve been dreaming about for a long time!)
- taxes will about about $2k less a year


CONS
- ok, what if the neighborhood ends up being just as crummy as this one, I would be so ticked off...example, "I could have stayed in my beautiful new home, and had this crap to deal with, instead, here I am in this old house, etc"
- maybe living too close to the school is NOT a good thing????
- what if DH and I can''t redo this house into something we love as much as this current home? plus, its a tri-level.....I''m not sure how I feel about tri''s.
- The biggest con I think is that we have to LIVE through the remodel process. Messy, and inconvenient with kids for sure!
- it will be so disorganized for awhile..til the remodel and addition are done....DH will also need to build a shed asap...the current home has a 3 car garage, which houses all our kids crap...the older home only has a 2 car...no way are we going to be able to fit all our junk in there...DH will have to park his car on the street for awhile.
- just letting go of tghe sentimental attachment to this house is goig to be hard for me...not for DH...he could care less.

so, what do you guys think about my PROS/CONS list? am I missing anything???

 

[jetmal]

oops, see above post please

 

[divergrrl]

Jet--

Move... 2nd mortgages will drain you. YOu can never get the principal down fast enough & pay lots of interest.

Neighbors will get worse

Your new neighborhood sounds lovely

Living close to school is awesome

Living close to friends is awesome

Remodeling is a process that actually makes your investment better.


DO IT!!

jeannine

(I have a 102 yr old home & just did a 2.5 year remodel & 1600sq ft addition, with an infant & it was fine)

 

[perry]

About all of that extra stuff - that you think you would need a shed for...

Stuff accumulates to fill the available space.

Years ago I went from a house to having my stuff in storage for 3 years, and then into an appartment.

I managed to do just fine getting rid of tons of "stuff." Garage sales, neighbors, St Vincent de Paul all work.

Now after living in a house again I am looking at my pile of "stuff" in the basement and closets and am seriously thinking of going on a "stuff" reduction campaign.

The moral of the story is that you do not need a shed. What you and your husband need to do is decide what is important to keep for the future - and what can go elsewhere.

As far as remodeling. A few projects are a mess (kitchen); but past that - just do it one room or project at a time for many years. Lots of people do that - and the kids learn something from it too (like not needing everything "now" - and how a multiyear fix up of a house works).


Perry

 

[Mara]

I would move...

I can tell how sad you will be to leave the home you guys had built to your specs and you adore, but with the neighborhood going to the chickens (literally)...do you really want to continue to stay there? Neighbor issues can be so taxing because you feel like that's your home, you have rights, they feel like that's their home, they have rights etc. Esp if HOA is not enforcing anything at all. What are you paying dues for? Plus you could have an issue if the chickens or tomatoes or 10-20 people in each house thing becomes such a problem that you can't sell the house even if you have to. Seems like the warning signs are there now. And the idea of selling the house to pay the equity and go into the other house with more peace of mind can be huge for a family...I'd love the idea of getting rid of the 2nd mortgage and getting a pool? Love it!

Also, the new house being a block from the kids school sounds like a huge plus. You said your husband could turn this old house into something amazing, sure it's not NEW (and I know how you feel because I love new construction over old...I would almost always choose a new house in an old neighborhood over something old with character just because if it's built well new, it will be such lower maintenance), but your husband can make it all yours with all the remodeling he will do. Plus an old established neighborhood is fabulous...you will probably have neighbors who have more of a sense of real community than what you have now. Great neighbors can be priceless. I would definitely check into the neighborhood and meet the neighbors, can you ask the people who are selling what they thought of the neighborhood? We live near to some really old established huge tree lined streets with lovely houses and we love to walk there at night, everyone is so friendly to us.

Plus this next move wouldn't be your LAST right? You could always move again in the future when the kids are grown and it's time to retire or something, and buy some land you can build the dream house on with no neighbors around! hehe.

 

[Allisonfaye]

I would definately move...BUT..do you HAVE to move to that neighborhood? Is there another alternative?

 

[Allisonfaye]

Also, I don''t know how long you have lived in the current place (maybe you said) but have you checked property values? Sounds like the negative influences (not talking about race here) such as the unsightly plants and messes might depress property values.

 

[CaptAubrey]

I''m with the "movers." There are neighbor issues and Neighbor Issues, and it sounds like you have the latter.

You can try playing hardball with the HOA, the city (it sounds like they may be violating occupancy limits), and the INS, but it''s going to be expensive and time-consuming. Plus, if you think you have unpleasant neighbors now, wait until they realize you''re trying to make trouble for them. Remember that everyone out there thinks they''re perfectly normal, and once the fur starts to fly, they are going to view you as the problem neighbor--and it sounds like you''re badly outnumbered. Do you want to wake up to find your tires slashed or four-letter-words spelled out in your yard with Round-Up? Or worse?

I''ve lived a lot of different places, and I think the likelihood of ending up in a new neighborhood that''s as bad as this one sounds is pretty slim.