SES disparity within families

[Sabine]

I'm just wondering how common it is to have a large disparity in things like education level, income, etc. among different family members.

Both my mom and dad came from families that lived in small towns in rural PA. They got married after my mom finished high school. Neither went to college (actually, my dad dropped out of hs when my grandpa got sick so he could work to support the family, but he has his GED). My mom has 2 siblings. One moved to NC, works in a bank, is morbidly obese, married a man who rebuilds cars so they have classic cars all over their front yard. I stepkid but no kids of her own. The other is also morbidly obese. She got married and moved in with the parents. They have 2 kids, both who did not go to college and still live at home even though they are 27 and 30. The 30 year old got pregnant at 19, her boyfriend became abusive, and she is now a single mother. Neither are married at this point.

But when my mom and dad got married, they moved to an upper class area, and sacrificed a LOT to be able to afford to live in that area so that my brother and I could go to a good school. It made a world of difference. We both went to college (although we had to pay our own way through loans). My brother now lives in NY and works on wallstreet, and married a girl who teaches middle school. I've done some post-grad work, taught high school for a few years, married a guy who just finished medical school (and is also in the Navy) and am currently a SAHM. My mom has since put herself through first a community college and now has a BA.

My dad's siblings did go to college, but 1 lives at home with her mom as a spinster. The other married a man I can really only describe as a red-neck, and harbors racist views. Their kids will probably go to college, but both are still young, and they have grown up in such a racist environment.

I was just thinking about my cousins today. We all came from the same base families, but we seem to be ending up having very different pathways. I have almost nothing in common with my cousins on my mom's side, and my mom no longer has anything in common with her own sisters, so we don't seem much of them.

Dh's family members all have similar SES's, so it just made me wonder how common it is for some siblings to end up on a much different path, and if other families struggle to overcome these differences to stay close.

 

[Indylady]

Hmnn..

This is something that I've thought a lot about. I just graduated college, and I'm already seeing a difference between "successes" of my peers, though we all started in the same place, at the same university, with the same range of options available to us. Some are going to graduate school, some are moving back home, some have a job lined up but most don't. I'm already seeing people fall behind, and seeing others begin to chisel out bright futures. Sorta makes me feel like when I think about it.

 

[Haven]

My parents come from two very different backgrounds.

In terms of SES, both of my parents were raised in the same city at the same level of paycheck-to-paycheck desperation. The differences between their families, however, are enormous. My dad's family is just plain dishonest. I don't think it has anything to do with SES, it's just the type of people they are. My mother's family is dignified and proud. They are just very different people.

I have a very close friend who is in a decidedly different socioeconomic class than we are. She has worked very hard her entire life, never went to college, and supports her family of six the best she can. I was raised with so much privilege compared to her, and I know that many of those differences from our childhoods account for our SES differences today. Our lifestyles are very different, but we have so much in common as people that I actually knew we were going to be fast, close friends the very first time we met. I imagine that the differences you see between yourself and your cousins have more to do with who you are as people than where you come from.

IndyLady--I'm not trying to be argumentative here, so I hope this doesn't come out that way. I just read your response and I have to say that I don't see differences in professional status as being equal to differences in success. My bet would be that some people just value different things.

For example: One of my favorite people on this planet is a guy who works at my local used bookstore. I also think he is one of the most successful people I know. Why? Because he is living his life *exactly* as he pleases. He is really and truly happy, happier than most people I know. He's in his late 40s/early 50s, works in a bookstore, makes t-shirts on the side, travels in all of his time off, extremely well read, and really one of the most interesting people I imagine I will ever have the pleasure of knowing. When I quit my HS job last year because I was miserable, he was one of the few people who really understood my choice, and celebrated it. He travels regularly, always has something put to the side that he can't wait to share with me when I come in, and he is more cultured than I could ever hope to be. I'm sure his old HS peers would balk at him and think him a failure if he showed up at their 30 year reunion wearing one of his irreverent t-shirts, bookstore name tag, his gray hair flopping on top of his head, and that big goofy grin on his face. But really, he's a constant inspiration to me. I wish everyone would make their lives as fulfilling for themselves as he does for himself.

 

[Indylady]

Haven, I didn't mean that one has to have a job that pays x or be in field y to be successful. What I am saying, though, is that post grad "drive" isn't the same in everyone, even if its not a career focused drive but a drive to do what you want.

ETA: I should have realized that the thread is called "SES Disparity" so success could easily be taken as "SES success". I apologize for the confusion!

 

[kenny]

The other married a man I can really only describe as a red-neck, and harbors racist views.

Huh?

 

[Haven]

Haven, I didn't mean that one has to have a job that pays x or be in field y to be successful. What I am saying, though, is that post grad "drive" isn't the same in everyone, even if its not a career focused drive but a drive to do what you want.

I know, Indy. I do think it's an interesting point, though, and I don't think you would be alone if you *did* define success according to professional achievement. When you wrote "I'm already seeing people fall behind, and seeing others begin to chisel out bright futures" that reminded me of my friend from the bookstore, who would definitely look like one of those who "fell behind" to you.

I really like all of your posts, Indy, so I didn't want to come across as sounding argumentative. I just thought it was a good entry point for a related, interesting discussion.

 

[ksinger]

And here's another question just to add a bit more...what exactly IS a different SES than your parents? Is it education? Money? If so how much more or less, and what exactly constitutes a "class" in America.

Hubs and I discuss this bunches, and we both agree, that we ourselves are tricky to categorize in that department. He contends that most people do NOT rise above their birth class, that jumping a genuine class level is extremely difficult. But I've never really hammered down what exact criteria he is using.

Anyone care for a definition-fest?

 

[Indylady]

Defining success, especially with respect to SES, is definitely an interesting discussion as well, and one that my SO and I have had recently as well. (ETA: That's probably why I had it on my mind.) We have different schools of thought on the subject, but they work together in a yin-yang sort of way. Ksinger- I'll take a def-fest!

ETA again: After doing a little re-reading, I do realize that my comment came out judgmental. It isn't my place to decide who's "behind" and who's "in front". I apologize!

 

[Haven]

Now that is an interesting question, ksinger. I don't know the answer. However, I did have a similar discussion with colleagues once and we decided that one's professional autonomy is related to one's SES.

As for money, I'd say it has something to do with whether you actually have to keep on working in order to maintain your lifestyle. If your lifestyle depends on you (or your spouse, or both) working, then you're definitely a part of the big ole middle class. Or lower.

I agree with your husband, for what it's worth. Whatever class is, jumping a class is definitely extremely difficult.

 

[Kaleigh]

What does SES stand for ?? I get the jist of all of this, but want to know before I reply.

 

[Indylady]

Socio-economic status!

 

[Upgradable]

I am cautiously going to make the comment that success and socio-economic standing are incomparable measures, especially as experiences and age increases. I can say that as I've gotten older (older than early 20's) I've found personal satisfaction and success have much less to do with monitary and traditional education achievement than with personal satisfaction and finding ways of furthering ones own situation.

When I was young and asked what was the ideal I sought, I immediately responded, "intellectual success." I always knew I was going to go to college and receive a degree. I was an excellent student with many corresponding awards and accolades. But as curcumstances had it, my first year of college presented me with situations I never anticipated. Particulars aside, it took me 4 years to complete my associate degree, eight to complete my BS. And, by the time I earned my Masters' degree (ninteen years after HS grad) my idea of success had significantly changed!

In 1999 (the year I received my MEd) I achieved my career goal and was the director of a college program and I realized that the traditonal "achievement heirarchy" I had been raised with was a bunch of bullhonkey! What is really important is a tenuous balance between finanacial stability, family time, and personal satisfaction. This has absolutely nothing to do with $$, or education, but only individual maturity and willingness to be honest with yourself and the people you love.

I think this revelation may have something to do with the fact that I have an 18 year old son with Down syndrome, and now realize that health (as opposed to intellectual achievement) and happiness are the most imporant things things in life. This is my opinion only, and you get exactly what you pay for.

 

[Indylady]

Uppy, I'll plus one that definition of success. (I'm talking about your third paragraph)

 

[Haven]

I really enjoyed reading your post, Uppy.

 

[yssie]

Thank you for posting that Uppy.

 

[decodelighted]

I'm SUPER fascinated as to how a person's WEIGHT is a factor in their Socio-Economic Status. Hmmmm? Do go on.

 

[Upgradable]

You know, I reread my posts and think I sound like some pompous, self-important twat!

What I really would love to do is sit down with some of you and talk about life (and all its detritus) over a bottle of wine!

 

[Upgradable]

I'm SUPER fascinated as to how a person's WEIGHT is a factor in their Socio-Economic Status. Hmmmm? Do go on.

The more I weigh, the less importance I put upon externally measurable criteria. Oh, and never underestimate the satisfaction to be found in a package of Mint Milanos!

 

[packrat]

haha Uppy said twat.

I don't think you sound pompous. You're about the last person I would ever link to that description!

 

[decodelighted]

I'm SUPER fascinated as to how a person's WEIGHT is a factor in their Socio-Economic Status. Hmmmm? Do go on.

The more I weigh, the less importance I put upon externally measurable criteria. Oh, and never underestimate the satisfaction to be found in a package of Mint Milanos!

I sure hope Sabine can afford to be in a gated community that keeps out the fatties. Sometimes we manage to earn enough to buy them big houses.

 

[packrat]

I'm SUPER fascinated as to how a person's WEIGHT is a factor in their Socio-Economic Status. Hmmmm? Do go on.

The more I weigh, the less importance I put upon externally measurable criteria. Oh, and never underestimate the satisfaction to be found in a package of Mint Milanos!

Wait, aren't those like Girl Scout Thin Mints? Hmmm..I think they might be the pompous version. I, of course, can only partake of the Thin Mints. I'm a humble kinda gal.

bwhahaha love you

 

[Upgradable]

I'm SUPER fascinated as to how a person's WEIGHT is a factor in their Socio-Economic Status. Hmmmm? Do go on.

The more I weigh, the less importance I put upon externally measurable criteria. Oh, and never underestimate the satisfaction to be found in a package of Mint Milanos!

Wait, aren't those like Girl Scout Thin Mints? Hmmm..I think they might be the pompous version. I, of course, can only partake of the Thin Mints. I'm a humble kinda gal.

bwhahaha love you

Well then, by definition, that puts you in a lower socio-economic status. Or you can get more mint for your moola. Okay, maybe that puts you a step ahead?

 

[PinkTower]

I'm SUPER fascinated as to how a person's WEIGHT is a factor in their Socio-Economic Status. Hmmmm? Do go on.

There are articles and books written about this. Many lower income people must eat poor diets in inner cities. The fresh fruits and vegetables are too expensive to purchase. Often, they are not available to those with limited transportation. Fast food is often quite inexpensive, and many people feed their children that way because it is what they can afford. This is especially true when you realize the cash outlay is only a little at a time, meal to meal.

 

[FrekeChild]

Hmmm...

My paternal great grandfather was a president of a bank, and if the Great Depression had not happened, I would likely be a celebutante instead of being awesome, like I am now. He was also an attorney.

My grandfather lost everything else that wasn't lost in the GD. He was also an attorney. He made some really bad investments and he ended up not being able to find a job. His wife told my dad and uncle that they had three career choices: doctor, lawyer, or priest.

My uncle chose doctor. He is a phd and a professor at our local university in the medical school. He made some poor financial choices, went through his retirement and is still working well into his 70s.

My dad chose lawyer. He is 1 year and 1 month from practicing law for 50 years. He works because he wants to, he has more than enough money to retire and leave a sizeable inheritance for all three of his children. He married my mom, who had a BA in english who worked for the VA and later was a SAHM.

I have an associate's degree in culinary arts, and a bachelors in psychology. I work in a law firm. I married a phd student. He will likely either work for the federal government or be a professor.

My brother is a college basketball coach. He has a MA in communications. He married an aerobic instructor/math teacher with a MA in math. They have 5 children.

My other brother is a high school basketball coach/athletic director/history teacher. He has a BA in communications. He married a woman with a MA in english who teaches english. They have three children.

I am the youngest of my father's children. I am also the most financially stable (probably has something to do with not having kids) BUT they are 18 and 20 years older than I am. My uncle's children (4) all have college degrees, with one being a cardiologist, another being a vice president of a local company (with a masters), another having an MA in special education, and the last being a former professional ballerina who is pursuing a graduate degree. We are overall a very educated family.

On my maternal side? Out of ten children, I think that 4 have college degrees, including my mom. My mom's parents did not have any kind of degrees. My grandfather worked for the railroad. Just about everyone in my generation is college educated.


Meanwhile, my husband is the first person in his family (both sides) to graduate with a college degree. And obviously the first person in his family to get a graduate degree. Most of his family has graduated high school or gotten their GEDs, but pretty much stopped there. The only people in his family to pursue college seriously are his aunt (bachelors) and his sister, who is currently pursuing a degree.


Interesting to think about...

 

[packrat]

I'm SUPER fascinated as to how a person's WEIGHT is a factor in their Socio-Economic Status. Hmmmm? Do go on.

The more I weigh, the less importance I put upon externally measurable criteria. Oh, and never underestimate the satisfaction to be found in a package of Mint Milanos!

Wait, aren't those like Girl Scout Thin Mints? Hmmm..I think they might be the pompous version. I, of course, can only partake of the Thin Mints. I'm a humble kinda gal.

bwhahaha love you

Well then, by definition, that puts you in a lower socio-economic status. Or you can get more mint for your moola. Okay, maybe that puts you a step ahead?

Yeah, we're not so much in the Milano class, we're the GS class but..I think I get to eat more cookies than you. Waitt..crap, that just means I'll be one of the fatties! Crimey sakes I tell ya, I can't win for losing!

 

[ksinger]

My parents come from two very different backgrounds.

In terms of SES, both of my parents were raised in the same city at the same level of paycheck-to-paycheck desperation. The differences between their families, however, are enormous. My dad's family is just plain dishonest. I don't think it has anything to do with SES, it's just the type of people they are. My mother's family is dignified and proud. They are just very different people.

I have a very close friend who is in a decidedly different socioeconomic class than we are. She has worked very hard her entire life, never went to college, and supports her family of six the best she can. I was raised with so much privilege compared to her, and I know that many of those differences from our childhoods account for our SES differences today. Our lifestyles are very different, but we have so much in common as people that I actually knew we were going to be fast, close friends the very first time we met. I imagine that the differences you see between yourself and your cousins have more to do with who you are as people than where you come from.

IndyLady--I'm not trying to be argumentative here, so I hope this doesn't come out that way. I just read your response and I have to say that I don't see differences in professional status as being equal to differences in success. My bet would be that some people just value different things.

For example: One of my favorite people on this planet is a guy who works at my local used bookstore. I also think he is one of the most successful people I know. Why? Because he is living his life *exactly* as he pleases. He is really and truly happy, happier than most people I know. He's in his late 40s/early 50s, works in a bookstore, makes t-shirts on the side, travels in all of his time off, extremely well read, and really one of the most interesting people I imagine I will ever have the pleasure of knowing. When I quit my HS job last year because I was miserable, he was one of the few people who really understood my choice, and celebrated it. He travels regularly, always has something put to the side that he can't wait to share with me when I come in, and he is more cultured than I could ever hope to be. I'm sure his old HS peers would balk at him and think him a failure if he showed up at their 30 year reunion wearing one of his irreverent t-shirts, bookstore name tag, his gray hair flopping on top of his head, and that big goofy grin on his face. But really, he's a constant inspiration to me. I wish everyone would make their lives as fulfilling for themselves as he does for himself.

The real question for this guy, and all of us, is if he broke a leg for a month, how well could he survive? I don't know what bookstores pay in your neck of the woods, but around here they generally require a second job to make ends meet. Methinks your cultured bookstore/T-shirt guy likely has inherited money. Not doubting your assessment of him, he sounds delightful, truly. But travel and culture are not cheap, nor are they the usual pastimes of choice for people coming from truly low SES backgrounds. Anything can happen of course, but my spidey-sense is telling me there is more to his story than just dropping out of the grind. One of the most fun jobs I had was a bookstore job, but who can DO anything on that pay? I had to get real, like most of slogging middle-classers.

Hubs mentioned that most of his kids come from homes where missing a paycheck is nigh unto complete ruin. He and I, who are NOT rich by any standard I can think of, appear VERY well-off to his kids. Just a comment on perspective I guess.....

Oh, and I can tell ya, there are many of his 30 year highschool friends who would be actually jealous, trust me. They've spend that 30 years accumulating money and/or prestige, assured that it would make them happy. And Of course, even at 30 years, outward appearance of success usually takes precedence over happiness, which has always had a pretty low status. We try to convince ourselves we're happy with our choices, but many times something inside reminds us on some level, that we really aren't....

 

[Haven]

ksinger--It's funny, because when I shared that bit about my bookstore friend I thought to myself "I wonder how long it will take for someone to pop in and say "NOT POSSIBLE! I bet the REAL story is x/y/z." That tends to be a popular response whenever people hear a story about someone being very happy without much money/status/etc.

On a more important note, would someone PLEASE pass the Mint Milanos? I'll take ten, please. I don't care what that makes me, I love those things.

ETA: Shameless plug for the book Vagabonding by Rolf Potts. Great travel book.

 

[Upgradable]

I'll be he has enough money put away to cover a month's worth of medical bills plus the lack of income. Don't even get me started on how much personal money we could put away if we saved our monthly insurance premiums instead of paying the insurance company. I feel strongly that insurance is nothing more than subsidized racketering! Let's have RICO take a close look at them!

 

[Haven]

Uppy--I hear ya. I cannot wait to be back on group health insurance in August. Not that it won't cost us anything, but it will definitely be less than what we're paying for individual coverage.

Living on one's own, without a mortgage or car payments or many of the other expenses people tend to tie themselves down with, is less costly than we tend to imagine. My budget from back in my post-college days was so small it's almost impossible to imagine now that I once lived within it. But I did.

 

[ksinger]

ksinger--It's funny, because when I shared that bit about my bookstore friend I thought to myself "I wonder how long it will take for someone to pop in and say "NOT POSSIBLE! I bet the REAL story is x/y/z." That tends to be a popular response whenever people hear a story about someone being very happy without much money/status/etc.

On a more important note, would someone PLEASE pass the Mint Milanos? I'll take ten, please. I don't care what that makes me, I love those things.

ETA: Shameless plug for the book Vagabonding by Rolf Potts. Great travel book.

That is NOT why I had doubts. I absolutely think you can be happy without much money. But your DESCRIPTION did not describe the typical activites and/or interests of a person without money, nor, as I mentioned and as you should know quite well, is travel typically cheap, and you imply that he travels often. He SOUNDS college educated. People who continue reading voraciously after highschool TEND to be formally educated beyond highschool. He sounds like he came from money, or at least had a solidly middle class family that encouraged education, which took a reasonable amount of money even back when he would have been in school. (Same time I was in college by the sound of it). Even back then, you didn't pay off student loans without adequate income, or in lieu of that, some sort of help, like living at home for a while. Maybe he got a faboo education and then bailed on the student loans. Many people did that back then. The fact is YOU don't know his true financial situation either. He COULD be the person he appears to be and then again not.

Maybe he's a true anomaly. Maybe he's always been relatively poor and quite content. Maybe he had totally natural inclinations to, as you say, "refinement". But if he is suggesting books that appeal to YOU, he likely is not a simple person with a simple story.
The fact is YOU don't know his true financial situation either. He COULD be the person he appears to be and then again not.

I have an uncle who sounds similar in a lot of ways: has lived life his own way, reads a lot, vagabonded around in his younger years, etc. Even lucked into a being given a family residence that he never ever would have been able to afford on what he's made over the years. But he's never been QUUUIIIIITE as carefree as you describe this guy, and now, at 60, even though he's in decent health and fit for his age, he's staring down having to do physical type labor until his simply cannot anymore. Not a truly happy propspect. I worry about him....