Have You Lived Away from Your SO?

[Sakuracherry]

I am ready to start applying to law schools in the coming fall/winter. I scored really well (top 1%) on the LSAT and want to go to the best law school I can get into. My husband and his mother, who really wanted me to go to law school and talked me out of going to a great art school, do not want to me to go to school outside of NYC. What's worse is that they don't want me to pursue public interest work, which really bothers me. There are two great law schools in NYC and I'll be totally given going to one of them. I don't really like the other for some reason.

I love my husband and want to live with him during law school if possible. However, I feel like I'll regret my choice if I don't apply to schools outside of NYC. I don't know if I'm being selfish,though. My husband is worried that I'll find somebody else.

Does anybody have any experience living apart from his/her SO?

 

[kenny]

Yes, I was abroad for almost a year.

We skyped daily, and that really helped.

 

[MissStepcut]

My husband and I lived apart when I was a 3L and he was a first year associate at an NYC law firm. Also, I had a new baby. It actually wasn't all that bad.

Congratulations on your 17X. Apply to the entire t14 and see what you get in terms of admissions and scholarship offers. You'll need other offers to negotiate with CLS/NYU anyway, so this actual decision is a long way down the road, and it's not like getting into HLS/YLS/SLS is guaranteed.

 

[Sakuracherry]

Kenny,

Skype is great. I use Skype/FaceTime to talk to my mum back home. I hope my husband is ok with the idea.


MissStepcut,

Thank you. I don't really care about CLS actually. I'm interested in Yale, NYU and NU for some reason. I have a pretty bad GPA from 8 years ago when I didn't speak much English. I'll wait and see what happens in the coming winter. How did you manage to study with a baby? That's amazing!

 

[MissStepcut]

If you don't have a good GPA, the top 3 are pretty much definitely out. No mitigating factor short of, I guess, maybe a best selling book, could save you. And as for NYC, unless "bad" means 3.5+, you're probably toast there too.

My husband and I went to Northwestern so I can definitely speak to that! Much more forgiving as to GPAs.

Law school with a baby was also not a big deal. After 1L, it's all downhill.

 

[Sakuracherry]

My classmate got into Yale with a 3.3, so I haven't lost my hope yet. I have a decent GPA from my current school, but did pretty bad in art classes in the community college I attended a few years ago. Northwestern seems like a great school and I enjoyed talking to a few current students/graduates. I'm older than typical law school applicants and have some work experience, so I feel like I'll fit in well at Northwestern.

 

[MissStepcut]

There are rare exceptions, but there is also a mountain of data:

Lawschoolnumbers.com

I have a friend who is a tenure-track professor now, who was excluded from every single T20 school because of ONE bad grade in community college. He ultimately graduated from a school that didn't grant letter grades at all, so for ABA reporting, he "officially" had a 2.0, and not a single top 20 school could stomach that, despite his otherwise sterling credentials (including a PhD from a highly respected institution). Sadly, law school admissions are very mechanical.

That said, getting a high LSAT is the hardest part, and you've done that. If you apply to the entire T14, you'll likely get a couple of acceptances, and possibly some scholarship money to boot. But staying in NYC may not be possible.

 

[Sakuracherry]

My score is close to a 180 and I put myself through college after moving here alone without speaking much English, so I hope some schools forgive some bad grades in the past. Getting into NYU would be great, but I'm really to move as long as my husband is ok with me living far away. Thank you for your advice, MissStepcut!

 

[MissStepcut]

I've spent a lot of time dealing with law school admissions, so it's nice to have a chance to share what I know.

Law schools are very, very, VERY unforgiving when it comes to the numbers. Without looking it up, your classmate's coup of getting into YLS with a sub-3.5 gpa only happens once every few years according to the statistics Yale releases. Even of people who have, for example, done impressive terms of service in the military. I have scads of data to support this, and it paints a grim picture. Depending on your financial situation, you may want to consult someone like Spivey Consulting to help you put together an application that would help you overcome the major weak spot in your application.

 

[Sakuracherry]

I've spoken to Mike before, but I don't think I'll benefit from his service. That was his opinion as well. I'm hoping to get into some good schools, but it's not the end if the world for me even if I don't. I have done my best in the past few years and if law schools don't see me worthy, that's alright. I might try to convince my husband and his mother and pursue an MFA instead.

 

[Sky56]

We've had long separations during the time our mothers were dying: I helped nurse my mother while he had to stay home and work 3000 miles away. Recently we had a long separation while his mother died in 2014. She lived 2000 miles away. It didn't really feel "separated" because we were constantly talking to each other on the phone or texting.

 

[Gypsy]

OK.

Here's my advice.
I too scored in the 99th percentile.

And I was told to go to the best RANKED lawschool I could.

So I went to Georgetown. And it was a HUGE mistake.

Now, this is not just my story. But that of many others I have talked to.

Here's my advice for what it is worth.

1) DO NOT go to the highest ranked school you get accepted to, to the exclusion of all else.

* Read up on the rates of clinical depression in law students. They are EXTREMELY high. So are the suicide rates. The BEST thing you can do is NOT isolate yourself from your support system. Do NOT think you will get another one at lawschool. Yes, you will make friends (some very close ones) but they will be going through the same thing you are. And the crazy just feeds itself. You need to keep yourself grounded to the world outside. To keep school/life balance. Or else you WILL suffer. So DO NOT separate yourself from your husband. Frankly, that's just a big mistake. I thank GOD I met my husband my second year. I would NOT have graduated without him.

*Make sure you are VERY conscious of how much tuition AND cost of living is for ANY school you go to. Look at rent, cost of food, transportation, etc. If you best RANKED school is more expensive by more than 10K tuition per year, and?or significantly more in cost of living: DO NOT GO THERE. Go to your second best school! You will graduate and find yourself in a PRISON of debt. AND DO NOT ASSUME YOU WILL GET A 100K job straight out. Look at the unemployment rates for new lawyers. THEY ARE REALLY FREAKING HIGH. I have new graduates try to compete with jobs, desperate for anything they can get, and they ALL lose out to me. They don't even get calls back.

*If you can at all avoid it (and you can), DO NOT GET ANY PRIVATE LOANS. ONLY FEDERAL. Trust me on this. YOU DO NOT want private student loans. They are easier to get than beer at a frat party. DO NOT DO IT. Even if it means going to a lower ranked state school.

*DO read a now out of print book "101 things to do with a law degree". WHY? Because statistically speaking, four years after you graduate you will be DESPERATE for something else to do. Also read this: http://thegirlsguidetolawschool.com/10/law-school-myth-5-getting-a-law-degree-opens-lots-of-doors/

*The summer before your first year: GO TO A PREP COURSE. They have them. Courses that get you prepared for your First Year. Pay for it anyway you can. Beg, borrow steal. Make sure it's a good HARSH one though. Okay?

*Finally. If you do go to a "mucky muck" school. Your first year orientation will be filled with people introducing themselves as "FIRST NAME, NAME OF UNDERGRADUATE". Anyone who introduces themselves that way to you is SCARED and TRYING TO INTIMIDATE YOU. Especially the ones that get to say "FIRST NAME, Harvard." or "First Name, STANFORD" or "FIRST NAME, PRINCETON"... or YALE. Or WHATEVER. DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME ON THESE PEOPLE. You are just as smart as they are. And you are all starting from the EXACT SAME baseline. Their undergraduate colleges DID NOT prepare them any BETTER or WORSE than yours did. Find a nice group of people who introduce themselves NORMALLY, "Hi I'm Sarah" and stick to them. You'll be MUCH happier. Oh, and needless to say, do not introduce yourself as "Sarah, Harvard." Just don't.

Insights and experiences for you.
I went to Georgetown. I could have done to UCLA. Georgetown was ranked 13 in the country. UCLA 17. UCLA's tuition was ONE THIRD of Georgetown's. Cost of living the same. AND Georgetown was NO WHERE near ANYONE I knew. UCLA was right next to family.

DO you think Georgetown is THAT much more impressive than UCLA?

HELL NO.

I could have stayed near a support system, so when I got sick someone could have gotten me soup, or checked in on me (I had a great roomate, but she was buried or also sick). I could have graduated with 1/3 of my debt. And kept it all Federal. And I would have lost NOTHING.

Also. You want to know the RUDEST surprise?
Studying for the Bar.
This is how it went:
I knew a ton of theory and some practical applications. I went to a top ranked national school.
I was sitting in a class with a bunch of people who went to Rutgers and other NJ and NY state schools. NO WHERE NEAR my school in ranking.
Guess what happened? They knew ONE THOUSAND PERCENT more practical knowledge than I did.
I had to nearly kill myself (not an exaggeration, there were days that I was driving to Bar courses with 1 hour sleep and I easily could have killed myself or someone else. I thank God, I didn't) TO CATCH UP TO THEM.

I have heard this from MANY MANY others. OFTEN State schools that are top ranked IN THEIR STATES (assuming you don't live in Wyoming) are a BETTER CHOICE for graduates who plan to live in that state or area than a NATIONAL great RANKED school.

It is VERY EASY to get bad advice about law school. I was given TRUCK LOADS of it when I was just starting out. I desperately wish someone had told me the above. It would have helped me IMMEASURABLY.

And most of all please remember. LIFE is about LIVING. NOT about work. NOT about what school you go to. It's about being HAPPY. Pick the school that will make you the HAPPIEST person. And you will succeed. Okay?

 

[Gypsy]

Okay so. More advice.

Your husband needs to go to therapy, possibly with you. Worried you will find someone else is NOT a reasonable reason not to support your spouse. He's clearly got an issue with self worth OR he sees a problem in the marriage/relationship you don't see or don't want to see. Also well... his mother is probably a problem too. You need to be honest with him and he with you.

Your husband can move. I know, it's a radical concept, having to leave mommy. But you know... it happens. That's what it means to marry someone. You cleave to THEM. Not mommy.

DO NOT GO TO CORNELL. Research suicide rates. They are SCARY.

Rutgers is a great school. Especially if you plan to practice in the NY metro area. And it is close to NY. Yale is in CT. There are LOTS of good schools CLOSE to NY, that aren't in NY. And again, your husband can compromise too. If he can't... well, maybe he should be worried.

And finally. I've been with my husband for 15 years. NO ONE can get between you, unless there is a gap there already. People don't cheat, or leave their spouses or fall magically in love with OTHER people because the other person is SO GREAT. Doesn't happen. Infidelity, divorce, etc happen because there are problems in the marriage. If your husband is worried about you leaving him, maybe what he is trying to say is that there is a problem in your marriage he is worried about. LISTEN TO HIM. AND BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF. If there is a gap, FIX IT. Go to therapy (CBT therapist, please). Whatever.

Lawschool WILL strain your relationship. NOT because of new people. But because you will be under a TON of stress. And because he will have to support you emotionally. If there are cracks in the foundation of your relationship, then FIX THEM BEFORE LAW SCHOOL HITS.


This is a book for after infidelity. But it was recommended to me as a 'pre-marriage' aide to me. And it is a GREAT book that I think every couple SHOULD read (regardless of infidelity issues). http://www.amazon.com/Not-Just-Friends-Rebuilding-Recovering/dp/0743225503

Please read it AND have your husband read it. It will help you. It's a great book (you can skip sections, just use your judgement.)

 

[missy]

Sakuracherry, I don't want to offer any advice here because I am not sure of the best advice but I do want to offer my heartfelt congratulations on a job well done and wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide. I have no doubt you will succeed in whatever path you choose.

I agree with Gypsy's posts. Do not make a debt for yourself that will take forever to climb out of. Law schools (among other schools) are incredibly expensive these days. You need to take that into account. Quality of life needs to be taken into account as well and I also agree. Support systems are critical.

Personally if I was going to be working hard in school I would want to be with my dh. It is comforting and helpful to have one's loved ones nearby during challenging times. Of course I am speaking from personal POV and not saying everyone should feel this way. Just adding my perspective about this and what factors I would consider.

Law school ranking is quite important but other factors need to be taken into account so if you could reach a happy medium (top school maybe not the very top with more reasonable cost and close to your dh) well that is the best you could do under your circumstances. As noted many times before in many other threads regarding many different situations there is no perfect choice. But there is certainly the best choice you can make under your unique circumstances.

Wishing you all the best and a happy and successful future!!!


(Plus if you stay in NY we can hang out together don't forget! )

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I've spoken to Mike before, but I don't think I'll benefit from his service. That was his opinion as well. I'm hoping to get into some good schools, but it's not the end if the world for me even if I don't. I have done my best in the past few years and if law schools don't see me worthy, that's alright. I might try to convince my husband and his mother and pursue an MFA instead.

What bothers me the most about this whole thing is that you REALLY do not want to go to law school. You really, really need to rethink this. Your husband and his mother certainly have the right to their opinions, but why on earth would you go into something with a high SUICIDE rate (at good schools), of all things, if it is not YOUR dream?????

I do not think it is a good idea at all to leave your husband for three years under any circumstances. Either he moves with you, or you stay within commuting distance to where you live now. Gypsy is also telling you that many people HATE the jobs they'd get after law school. There's no way that this is a good idea if it is not your first love.

Apply for the MFA and live YOUR dream and not your mother-in-law's!!!!!!!!

 

[luv2sparkle]

Gypsy's advice is all so very wise. Listen and follow. You are very lucky to have found someone with her experience to advise you. I wouldn't take that lightly.

Congratulations on all you have accomplished thus far. I am sure you have a great future ahead of you!

DS has some very good points as well that bear some thought....

 

[Calliecake]

I've spoken to Mike before, but I don't think I'll benefit from his service. That was his opinion as well. I'm hoping to get into some good schools, but it's not the end if the world for me even if I don't. I have done my best in the past few years and if law schools don't see me worthy, that's alright. I might try to convince my husband and his mother and pursue an MFA instead.

What bothers me the most about this whole thing is that you REALLY do not want to go to law school. You really, really need to rethink this. Your husband and his mother certainly have the right to their opinions, but why on earth would you go into something with a high SUICIDE rate (at good schools), of all things, if it is not YOUR dream?????

I do not think it is a good idea at all to leave your husband for three years under any circumstances. Either he moves with you, or you stay within commuting distance to where you live now. Gypsy is also telling you that many people HATE the jobs they'd get after law school. There's no way that this is a good idea if it is not your first love.

Apply for the MFA and live YOUR dream and not your mother-in-law's!!!!!!!!

+1 Duamondseeker is giving you excellent advice.

 

[Sky56]

Gypsy, I love it! I went to one of the schools you mentioned...and it was very depressing, that was for sure. A family member attended the same school and graduated two years ago and she came close to suicide, so close that the ambulance was called.

I wish I had gone to a less prestigious and smaller school. To this day, I refuse to donate money to the school; they even hardly heated my dorm, we all had to wear heavy coats inside during the energy crisis in the '70's. I graduated with a degree and a nervous breakdown along with it. lol!

 

[missy]

I've spoken to Mike before, but I don't think I'll benefit from his service. That was his opinion as well. I'm hoping to get into some good schools, but it's not the end if the world for me even if I don't. I have done my best in the past few years and if law schools don't see me worthy, that's alright. I might try to convince my husband and his mother and pursue an MFA instead.

What bothers me the most about this whole thing is that you REALLY do not want to go to law school. You really, really need to rethink this. Your husband and his mother certainly have the right to their opinions, but why on earth would you go into something with a high SUICIDE rate (at good schools), of all things, if it is not YOUR dream?????

I do not think it is a good idea at all to leave your husband for three years under any circumstances. Either he moves with you, or you stay within commuting distance to where you live now. Gypsy is also telling you that many people HATE the jobs they'd get after law school. There's no way that this is a good idea if it is not your first love.

Apply for the MFA and live YOUR dream and not your mother-in-law's!!!!!!!!

+1 Duamondseeker is giving you excellent advice.

I totally missed this part! If this is not your dream or something you really want to do Don't Do It Sakuracherry. Life is hard and you do not want to choose a career or life path that does not call to you or inspire your passion in some way. Please rethink your decision and do not let anyone else (including us) pressure you into doing something your heart is not into. Your MIL and your dh with all due respect are not the boss of you. (((Hugs))) for what I know is a difficult decision but I know you will listen to your heart and make the right one for you. The rest will follow as I am sure your dh wants you to feel fulfilled and happy with whatever career path you choose.

 

[Sakuracherry]

Sky,

I'm sure you and your husband has a healthy and strong relationship.


Gypsy,

Thank you very much for writing those long posts for me. I have talked to some people who graduated from law school and everybody seemed to have different advice/opinions. It is very confusing and I don't really know whom I can trust.

If I were to pay the full sticker price, I'd rather go to a higher ranked school. However, I understand what you are saying about loans. Maybe you'll think I'm stupid, but I've been working full time while attending college and have saved a lot of money. If I go to any of the law schools in NYC, I'll graduate without debt. If I decide to go to school outside of NYC, maybe I'll have to take some loans, but I don't think I'll move out of NYC unless I receive a generous scholarship offer.

As for the location issue, I had never ever paid attention to that until I read your post. Since I don't have any family here in the States, I probably shouldn't live too far away from my husband. Maybe Philly or DC will work, but I cannot move across the country. One of the managers at work graduated from Cornell long time ago and be keeps telling me about "that bridge his classmate jumped off from". I think Ithaca is a beautiful town, though.

I need to talk to my husband more about his fears. He says he jus doesn't want to live alone.

 

[Sakuracherry]

missy,

Thank you. I really don't know how I feel about living away from my husband. Of course, I'd like to live with him, but I don't want to limit my options. He has a great job and his work pays for his tuition, so it's impossible for him to move out of NYC. What makes me worried is that the support system issue Gypsy mentioned. Now I remember how I suffered alone as an international student. Having my husband support me by my side would be ideal.

We can still hang out even if I move out of NYC, my heart belongs go the big apple


DS,

Thank you. You have a really good point. I wish I had supportive people around me. They made me decline the half scholarship offer from a great art school and I'm stillupset about that. However, it's not like I really don't want to go to law school. Taking a class with this amazing professor who works for ACLU has completely changed my view. I come from an outcast in my country and suffered quite a lot back home and here in the U.S as a domestic worker. If there is something I can do to make things better for the underprivileged and the underserved, I would like to so that. My MIL wants me to be a corporate lawyer, but there is no way I will be one. My BIL who went to law school is very supportive and keeps telling her to keep her mouth shut. He worked as a DA for a while following graduation and loved it, but now he's miserable working long hours at a small private firm.

 

[Sakuracherry]

luv2sparkle and Calliecake,

You are right. I need to make sure that I choose a career that makes me happy. Thank you.

 

[Sky56]

My brother is a lawyer. He graduated top of his class at an Ivy League law school. He didn't want to be a corporate lawyer either. Follow your dreams like he did. He went into a very unique niche field where he makes less income but totally loves his work. He works for a minority group that mainly is in rural areas and represents them in Washington, DC and at their specific locales.

 

[missy]

I agree with Sky. There are many different opportunities being an attorney. My dh is an attorney (and has an MBA as well) but he is also in a niche field and he loves his work with a passion. He really does and that is what makes him so excellent in his field.

No matter your decision though I would try finding a school not too far away from your dh because of 1. how your dh feels and that is important as you guys are a team and 2. what you wrote about your support system so you feel it is important as well though I get you don't want to sacrifice your dream of where you want to go.

There are great schools in this area so I cannot imagine you not finding one that will meet your needs once you decide for sure what those needs are. You might have to sacrifice your #1 choice but that's the way life works sometimes. You have the benefit of having a loving spouse which many students that might be able to pick their #1 school because they are unencumbered might not have. So while there are limitations because you are married there are also countless benefits.

And in any case you might just be able to find your dream school right here once you decide what/where you want to be in your career. Wishing you lots and lots of good luck in your decision!

 

[Indylady]

Hi Sakura!

If you want to do public interest work, take LRAP and IBR into consideration, and see how/if your marriage will affect loan repayments. I have several friends from top law schools that have a lot of debt, but are working in public interest jobs and will not be paying back any of their loans provided they spend 10 years working in the public interest field. One of them, though, will be not be getting married during this time period because it will have a negative effect on her loan repayments--I don't know how affects her loans, though, or else I would elaborate. This varies school by school. Many of the more expensive and higher ranked schools have their own internal fellowships that are used to fund summer public interest work and even 2-3 months of post grad public interest work, and will also help pay off student debt. If you chose to go the public interest route, it may be beneficial to chose the best law school that still fits your other needs. After 10 years, PSLF should eliminate the rest of your loans http://www.top-law-schools.com/public-service-loan-forgiveness.html.. Its up to you, though, to determine how you feel about taking on a 10 year commitment to public interest work. The type of qualifying work is definitely broad, so you should certainly be able to find something that you like to fit under that umbrella, but I really don't know what happens to the loan repayment plan if a situations arises in which you find it necessary to leave work.

Here is a guide:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/tls-guide-to-lrap.html

 

[Gypsy]

First, I agree with Diamondseeker, Law School is not something you do without 100% commitment. Second, if you do it, and decide after a year is is wrong for you: DROP OUT. It's the RIGHT CHOICE. I am happy you have money saved up. Have you thought about an MBA instead?

Second, please read this blog: http://thegirlsguidetolawschool.com/10/law-school-myth-5-getting-a-law-degree-opens-lots-of-doors/ Read all the "Myths" this woman has a good head of her shoulders.

Third, I understand you are getting conflicting advice. That's difficult. That's why I told you to do some research yourself. About student loans. About depression and suicide. To look up unemployment rates for new lawyers. So do the research and come up with your own perspective on what you find out. OKAY?

You will not get in to Yale with a 3.3. Regardless of what your classmate did. Maybe they were a legacy or something.

I had a 3.5 and scored in the 99th percentile. Georgetown was where I got accepted. Georgetown is a decent school. But there is George Washington in DC as well.

Also my roomate did this, and you could do. She went to Georgetown for her first year, got the best grades she could and then re-applied to Yale and got in and transferred as a 2L.

IF after your first year in law school you decide that you are in the right place, then that is an option you have.

 

[rosetta]

I know nothing about law school, but I lived apart from my husband for two years as part of our medical training. We did see each other most weekends but not all as either him or I was on call for some of them. I do NOT recommend living apart from your spouse. It was stressful, expensive and frankly, I'm not going to get those lonely nights back.

 

[Sakuracherry]

Sky,

Your brother is very smart. Some people seem to make a mistake going into a field they have no interest in.


missy,

How my husband feels about the decision I am making is very important to me. There is no school ranked between NYU and Fordham in NYC, which makes things difficult. Your husband has both an MBA and a JD? That's amazing! It would be nice to enjoy a career and be excellent in the field. I think that's one of the things I really really want. We will see what happens once I hear back from all the schools and make the important decision together.


IndyLady,

Thank you very much! I've checked the policies of a few schools on my list and some seem to have an excellent program. I probably won't benefit from LRAP or IBA as I'm probably not going take loans. Even if I do, most programs seem to look at your spouse's income. I wish I could take advantage of it. I shouldn't have worked much during undergrad.


Gypsy,

I'll be pretty damned if I don't get into any good school with a 3.6+ and a 176. I don't think I'm interested in getting an MBA. I had no idea how my classmate got into Yale, but if you look at their website, you can see that they take people with a 3.1 or something. Yale is out of my reach and I'll have like 0.00001% of getting in. I'll just throw an application anyway just because how the dean talked about an immigrant who scored a 174 and she was really impressed with it. My first choice is NYU. Being able to stay with my husband and graduate without debt would be amazing.

As for advice, it's really, really difficult. Like you said, I need to do more research and make the final decision myself. There are so many things I regret not doing in my life just because people talked me out of those things.

Transferring is an option, but I don't really want to think about it right now. So many people are unemployed after graduation even if they went to a good school, which really scares me. I'm going to read the blog you linked tonight. Thank you.

 

[Gypsy]

Good school with a 3.6 and 99th percentile just depends on your definition of "good school". Don't just use ranking for determining what you consider a good school. Use common sense too. I know you'll get into a good school. I was just saying that Yale, etc. might be a bit out of touch. If it's not... well, that's something that is great, but even then the chances of a scholarship are unlikely, so that leaves you with HUGE tuition bills and loans. So, like I said, use common sense and remember this is a STOP on the road of life, not the road itself. So don't sacrifice too much for it.

 

[Sakuracherry]

rosetta,

Being a resident is really tough. How often have you talked to your husband while you lived away from him?

Gypsy,

I don't really know how to judge schools and determine which one is a good match for me. Even if I don't get into any one the top 14 schools, there are some good regional schools. I need to consider, school rank, scholarships, location, employment and make the decision.
I'm having a big headache already. Thank you again for your help.