Yet another request for newbie help

[Jibboo]

Hi all, this is the greatest diamond-help site ever! Thanks to whoever hosts it.

Background: I am looking for an engagement ring. I have come to accept that I just can't afford a GIA or AGS certified diamond in the size, shape and general cut that I am looking. So, thanks to the guidance provided by these forums I began looking at the various EGL's. (I want a F or G, so I have been looking for D or E EGL's.)

Please let me know if I am being naive....but if I were to buy a EGL diamond....can I take it to GIA to be certified? Considering that I intend to use it as an engagement ring..would I even want to? Would it cost alot? If I took it to a GIA certified appraiser, would they be able to certify it a GIA?

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 5/20/2007 9:42:16 PM
Author:Jibboo
Hi all, this is the greatest diamond-help site ever! Thanks to whoever hosts it.


Background: I am looking for an engagement ring. I have come to accept that I just can't afford a GIA or AGS certified diamond in the size, shape and general cut that I am looking. So, thanks to the guidance provided by these forums I began looking at the various EGL's. (I want a F or G, so I have been looking for D or E EGL's.)


Please let me know if I am being naive....but if I were to buy a EGL diamond....can I take it to GIA to be certified? Considering that I intend to use it as an engagement ring..would I even want to? Would it cost alot? If I took it to a GIA certified appraiser, would they be able to certify it a GIA?

Hi and welcome to PS! You are certainly right to be looking at EGL colors a bit higher than you wanted. You can send it to GIA to be certified, but it costs about $500 I think, and unless you plan to sell the ring later, it's not worth it.

Your best bet is to send the stone in question to a certified independent appraiser and they can verify that it is really the color and clarity you want. The biggest issue with EGL is that although there are some savings due to the cert., you could be drastically overpaying for say an E VS2 if what you REALLY got was a G SI1. You would have just been better off buying a G SI1 GIA or AGS stone in the first place. Make sense?

Be aware that if you buy from one of the PS vendors often only in house GIA or AGS certed stones have upgrade policies, something to consider if you ever plan on upgrading.

Could you tell us a bit more about what you're looking for? We would be happy to help try and find some good choices for you.

 

[kcoursolle]

I''d just stick to GIA and AGS, because the cost that you would have saved by buying EGL will be compensated for with the re-certing cost from GIA. GIA and AGS are often one or two color/clarity grades off.

Focus on cut quality. This is number one for what makes a diamond sparkle and look great!

 

[Regular Guy]

Your strategy of buying off cert might work...see updates notes below my signature...but as noted above...the more common approach would be to give to an indep appraiser vs GIA.

It''s hard to game the system. Ideally, you''ll compare your EGL to another option not certed by EGL that costs similar, and be satisfied you''re getting the better deal.

 

[Jibboo]

Thanks neatfreak, kcoursolle and regular guy. I see there has been quite extensive talk about this, so I am trying to explore all of the forums before asking a question you all have seen a few thousand times.

Please allow me to vent.

Essentially the problem is that my gf and I have entirely different opinions. She has always dreamed of a round 2.5+ carats (a girl can dream can't she? Don't worry...this is a flexible demand). I had been saving for a few years, frequently talking with local dealers and checking these websites to see what I'd have to save. But over the last few months, I have seen the prices skyrocket. I don't know if it was just local or not checking with the right places, but I've noticed a spike in prices on round cut, even on the websites.

So now I have a budget in the lower-10's. If I had my choice I'd get her the best possible diamond for the money. All I would want was a premium cut and a D/E/F. Now I am trying to compromise between her wishes and practical shopping. I was hoping a nice equilibrium was to find a low round lower 2 carat, G+, SI2+, with an excellent cut. Cut was my priority, until jewelers consistently were showing me 2.02's/ GIA / H or I / SI2's for upper-10's. With no offense to people with H stones, I was looking for something G+.

I just can't exceed my budget. Then I see these EGL's....2.06 (or something), E and F's, SI1's, excellent cut...all for several thousand dollars less and within my budget....I figured its got to be worth exploring. I just don't want to get ripped off...and I thought if getting the stone GIA appraised....I thought it would help maybe

Ok. I vented. Thanks to those who listen and my heart goes out to anyone else in this plight.

 

[kcoursolle]

I''d get something along these lines: http://www.jamesallen.com/diamond.asp?cid=130&item=1027537 A really well-cut stone that is just shy of 2 carats. It''s a good compromise between size and quality.

A J color still faces up very white and will be comparable to an H or an I EGL stone. Cut quality is the most important thing to consider. This is what will make a diamond sparkle and look amazing more than anything.

 

[icadieux]

Here is the fee chart from the GIA web page. There is about a 15 day turnaround time to receive a report. An independent appraiser would be much faster.

 

[Regular Guy]

Something like this is what she asked for...right?

Date: 5/20/2007 10:30:10 PM
Author: Jibboo

Essentially the problem is that my gf and I have entirely different opinions. She has always dreamed of a round 2.5+ carats (a girl can dream can't she? Don't worry...this is a flexible demand). I had been saving for a few years, frequently talking with local dealers and checking these websites to see what I'd have to save. But over the last few months, I have seen the prices skyrocket. I don't know if it was just local or not checking with the right places, but I've noticed a spike in prices on round cut, even on the websites.

For you...this one's 14,985 for a wire price, with F SI 1.

Both are found on the Price stats option under prices, above, and are scored under 1A for cut...helping to assure you of a more premium cut than it might otherwise be.

The issues of using EGL remain...but with options like these, you can, for example, enlist WF's help to determine whether they are genuine and keepers or not. Also, you could have a back up in house option in mind to swap for either, if you like.

Note, though, they have a 10 day return policy. They'll help to tell you what the real clarity & color are. But, sending it to GIA for their independent confirmation really won't work, if you want to use that to decide if you'll return it. Other vendors, of course, will have a longer return window, so even these same diamonds may work with them...if that's what you want. But, as above, using an independent appraiser is usually sufficient...or...in the case of WF...just using them.

Regards,

 

[Jibboo]

Thanks again everyone. Armed with better information, I contacted a few jewelers this morning and I found a diamond in my price range. If anyone could please take a moment and tell me if this looks good (unfortunately, I don''t have all of the information):

GIA
2.02
E
SI2
Cut Grade: Excellent
Depth: 65.9
Table: 55
7.80-7.83x5.13
No Cutlet
No/Faint Flouresence
VG Polish and Symmetry

Thanks to your advise, I told them I wanted the best cut possible and this is within my price range. (lower 10''s). Any thoughts?

 

[JulieN]

eww, no. the cut on that is so crappy, it's like a well-cut 1.7 ct.

 

[Lorelei]

Date: 5/21/2007 9:48:04 AM
Author: Jibboo
Thanks again everyone. Armed with better information, I contacted a few jewelers this morning and I found a diamond in my price range. If anyone could please take a moment and tell me if this looks good (unfortunately, I don''t have all of the information):

GIA
2.02
E
SI2
Cut Grade: Excellent
Depth: 65.9
Table: 55
7.80-7.83x5.13
No Cutlet
No/Faint Flouresence
VG Polish and Symmetry

Thanks to your advise, I told them I wanted the best cut possible and this is within my price range. (lower 10''s). Any thoughts?

Depth too much at almost 66%....

 

[Jibboo]

I''m confused....

So, cut takes priority.

But, if GIA says its got an excellent cut, why does the depth make any difference? What is the ideal depth? What else should I be looking for in terms of cut?

I just want something that will shine when my gf looks at it!

I guess what I am asking is, if I have no intention of selling the stone, does it really matter what the depth is so long as it shines bright and nicely? Or are you basically saying that, even with an excellent cut, it wont shine nicely because of the depth?

I can''t help but wonder how many people purchase diamonds everyday completely naive about what they are buying. This site is great...but sooo much information to absorb.

Sincerely,
A person who is confused.

 

[Lorelei]

Depth of almost 66% in a round diamond will probably make the diamond face up smaller than it should be, therefore you are paying for weight which you might not benefit from. Just see J did the maths, it will look more like a 1.7 ct, when you are paying for 2 cts you want a diamond which looks like it is 2 cts! Depth depends on opinion, but many look for 59.5 to max 62.6 but these numbers are subject to individual preferences. Crown and pavillion angles and how they work together dictate the light path and how much light is returned to your eyes ( sparkle)

To answer your thought about the uneductated diamond buyer, there are many out there.

 

[chrono]

Date: 5/21/2007 10:05:34 AM
Author: Jibboo
I''m confused....

So, cut takes priority.

But, if GIA says its got an excellent cut, why does the depth make any difference? What is the ideal depth? What else should I be looking for in terms of cut?

I just want something that will shine when my gf looks at it!

I guess what I am asking is, if I have no intention of selling the stone, does it really matter what the depth is so long as it shines bright and nicely? Or are you basically saying that, even with an excellent cut, it wont shine nicely because of the depth?

I can''t help but wonder how many people purchase diamonds everyday completely naive about what they are buying. This site is great...but sooo much information to absorb.

Sincerely,
A person who is confused.

Yes, cut takes priority over everything if you want the stone to sparkle.
The depth makes a difference - it is part of the equation in the cut factor. A deep stone means it will face up small. Yes, you are paying for a 2 carat diamond but because it is very deep, it will look like a 1.7 carat diamond. It will also probably not sparkle quite as well. It doesn''t matter if you are keeping or intending to upgrade later.

 

[Regular Guy]

This chart might help. Also, the data it is based on is what these options I drew the above from is taken from...

 

[peridot83]

I'm basically seconding what everyone already said

The reason we have such strong feelings is because size is a big concern for you. GIA "excellent" doesn't take into account the individual preferences of any consumer. They are just trying to say this is more sparkly than most stones on the market (which is why more here trust AGS more - it's less subjective and more by the numbers).

Since you are concerned about size, the most important size factor is the DIAMETER of the stone, in this case 7.8 . Carat weight can help ensure a diameter of a certain size but it's no guarantee. (It's kinda like trying to predict someone's height based on their weight).

In this case, the carat weight number is failing you. Why? Because a lot of the weight of the diamond is stuck in the depth, NOT in the diameter or face. (the part you see). You can find a diamond where a lot more of the weight of the diamond is used to increase the diameter of the stone.

I feel you're going to feel a lot of frustrations by trying to get "around" the system. Jewelers are smart and know their markets. The reason this diamond is cheaper, is that if it was sold in the store, people would be like "that's no 2 carat diamond! it's as big as my sister's 1.7" and would refuse to buy it for the price of a 2 ct.

You may strike gold eventually, so I don't want to discourage you, but it would take A LOT of searching and education to do so.

 

[Gypsy]

Is there a reason behind your G+ color requirement?


As other''s have pointed out: And EGL G would easily be a GIA or AGS I or J.

In addition, as you are looking at round brilliants a ''ideal'' I will look WHITER and brighter than a crappy cut G.

If I were you I would consider going to your local Hearts on Fire dealer and ask them to show you lower color HOF stones next to ''regular'' cut stones. I think you will be surprised and pleased to find out that if you stick with a premium cut stone you can drop down in color.

 

[Jibboo]

I can''t thank you all enough. If you all think I am frustrated and stressed now, you should have seen me before I found your site. I have visited all of the links you have suggested and I am beyond appreciative.

I wanted to try to stay I or above colorwise. I saw some H''s that to me looked white and "sparkly", and the jewelers were asking in the neighborhood of $20,000. (GIA certified). That was out of my price range, so I kept on with the search. The diamond dealers I met with on 47th Street had some amazing H colored rocks that were less than $20,000 but still out of my price range. It is now a few months later and I have been watching the prices continue to soar and I am seeing a whole slew of "H''s" that are....how shall I say this politely....very very yellow. Yellow to the naked eye, yellow reflections off the light. I mean very yellow. (I have nothing against yellow stones....but these were remarkably yellow). So yellow, I had difficulty believing they were H, especially when compared to other H''s I''ve seen.

I don''t know what causes one H stone to appear less yellow than others, so I figured I''d play it safe and only look G+.

I am open to anything.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 5/21/2007 12:07:41 PM
Author: Jibboo
I can''t thank you all enough. If you all think I am frustrated and stressed now, you should have seen me before I found your site. I have visited all of the links you have suggested and I am beyond appreciative.

I wanted to try to stay I or above colorwise. I saw some H''s that to me looked white and ''sparkly'', and the jewelers were asking in the neighborhood of $20,000. (GIA certified). That was out of my price range, so I kept on with the search. The diamond dealers I met with on 47th Street had some amazing H colored rocks that were less than $20,000 but still out of my price range. It is now a few months later and I have been watching the prices continue to soar and I am seeing a whole slew of ''H''s'' that are....how shall I say this politely....very very yellow. Yellow to the naked eye, yellow reflections off the light. I mean very yellow. (I have nothing against yellow stones....but these were remarkably yellow). So yellow, I had difficulty believing they were H, especially when compared to other H''s I''ve seen.

I don''t know what causes one H stone to appear less yellow than others, so I figured I''d play it safe and only look G+.

I am open to anything.

That''s an easy question to answer!

The bad cut is what makes those H''s appear yellow!!
Stick to ideals, super ideals, and excellents and I think you''ll be pleased!


Now... I''ll let the round experts take over.

 

[peridot83]

Were these Hs you looked at GIA certified? Cause they shouldn't look yellow until J or K, and I'm color sensitive. They may look "warm" from the sides....but... have you seen this? (which totally exaggerates differences since in white back ground, upside down, compared to a D, in a lab grading environment)

http://www.goodoldgold.com/4Cs/Color/NearColorless/


I assure you we're not all drinking the kool-aid when it comes to GIA & AGS, they just have strict gradings of their color ratings and therefore no well cut diamond from them should look yellow until about J or K to even the most color sensitive.

That doesn't necessarily mean you should jump down to a I....it's just something to think about ....

Another idea...have you been to Tiffany's? They are obviously out of your price range, but they are really strict on their color grading for a B & M. You could ask to look at some 1ct stones of different colors to see what your true sensitivity is (make sure to look in natural light not just store light).

 

[Gypsy]

Hi Peridot! It''s the cut quality not the lab. I''ve seen ACA I''s at GTG''s that are REALLY REALLY white. And I''ve seen some H''s in maul stores that are just flat out yellow. Heck, I''ve seen yellow G''s and F''s!

 

[Jibboo]

None of the jewelers or diamond dealers I have met with have showed me anything above a "very good" cut. They have all said "excellent" or in the case of AGS, "ideal", are out of my price range....but then again, that was only after I said I wanted nothing below a "G".

 

[peridot83]

I would go see if any jewelers have AGS0 stones in above 1 carat in a few color ranges. You can see pricescope friendly jewelers through a resources search up top. If someone does, that woul be a great way to gauge your color sensitivity. If it's a "G" with AGS0 stones, frankly I'd only look at D EGL graded stones or give up on EGL altogether.

Gypsy: Oh, hmm somehow I am now confused! If we're talking bout GIA & AGS being strict on their color grading system (which I assume they look at the diamond upside down compared to a D).

I'm aware that in a badly cut stone, the "warmth" you see from the sides may be more apparent face-up in a badly cut stone. However,can a stone be cut so badly that the color that on it's face is even stronger than on the sides, therefore messing up the GIA/AGS color grade. And making it completely irrelevant?

I.e. can a stone be colorless through the sides and have strong color when viewed face up?

 

[Regular Guy]

...and while you're at it...

- would you consider buying on-line.
- regardless...I'm supporting your original idea. The options shown on the chart I showed below are virtually available...even from your local guy. EGL does not have to mean badly cut. Read above.

 

[neatfreak]

Date: 5/21/2007 12:36:32 PM
Author: Jibboo
None of the jewelers or diamond dealers I have met with have showed me anything above a 'very good' cut. They have all said 'excellent' or in the case of AGS, 'ideal', are out of my price range....but then again, that was only after I said I wanted nothing below a 'G'.

For sparkle, you really really need to get the best cut you can.

Remember that each grading lab has their own definitions of what an ideal or vg cut is...and so does every jeweler! Just because they TELL you that it is a vg cut doesn't mean it really is.

Get the depth, table, crown and pavillion angles, either from a cert or a SARIN on any stones you are considering. Bring those numbers back here and use some of the tools under the "tools" button above to analyze the TRUE cut of your stone.

But really? An H, I and sometimes even an J in a RB is NOT going to look noticeably yellow to most eyes and especially not when set. Keep that in mind.

Since CUT is what will make that diamond really shine, and a good cut can hide color better than anything, I would drop down the color at least a few grades before I sacraficed on cut AT ALL.

 

[Gypsy]

Date: 5/21/2007 12:36:45 PM
Author: peridot83
I would go see if any jewelers have AGS0 stones in above 1 carat in a few color ranges. You can see pricescope friendly jewelers through a resources search up top. If someone does, that woul be a great way to gauge your color sensitivity. If it''s a ''G'' with AGS0 stones, frankly I''d only look at D EGL graded stones or give up on EGL altogether.

Gypsy: Oh, hmm somehow I am now confused! If we''re talking bout GIA & AGS being strict on their color grading system (which I assume they look at the diamond upside down compared to a D).

I''m aware that in a badly cut stone, the ''warmth'' you see from the sides may be more apparent face-up in a badly cut stone. However,can a stone be cut so badly that the color that on it''s face is even stronger than on the sides, therefore messing up the GIA/AGS color grade. And making it completely irrelevant?

I.e. can a stone be colorless through the sides and have strong color when viewed face up?

Good question... I don''t know the answer to that. Maybe one of the experts or vendors can chime in to help you.

 

[Jibboo]

Ok, this is just to see if I understand this:

GIA stone
2.22 Carats
SI2
E
Depth: 62.3
Table: 58
Sym/Pol: VG
no/faint flouresence
8.23 x 8.37 x 5.17
Excellent cut

Now, if I get everyone correctly, this is a fairly good diamond. The depth is at the upper end of the spectrum, but within reasonable range. The diamond''s surface is 8.23, which is pretty good.

Now, lets say this was an EGL stone, would it be fair to assume that this is more of an F-G/SI3-I1?

 

[JulieN]

Date: 5/21/2007 2:59:17 PM
Author: Jibboo
Ok, this is just to see if I understand this:

GIA stone
2.22 Carats
SI2
E
Depth: 62.3
Table: 58
Sym/Pol: VG
no/faint flouresence
8.23 x 8.37 x 5.17
Excellent cut

Now, if I get everyone correctly, this is a fairly good diamond. The depth is at the upper end of the spectrum, but within reasonable range. The diamond''s surface is 8.23, which is pretty good.

Now, lets say this was an EGL stone, would it be fair to assume that this is more of an F-G/SI3-I1?

It might be a good diamond. Or average. Depth is at the cutoff, but the table may be a bit on the large side to support that much depth-you need the angles. Average diameter is actually 8.3

 

[kcoursolle]

Date: 5/21/2007 2:59:17 PM
Author: Jibboo
Ok, this is just to see if I understand this:

GIA stone
2.22 Carats
SI2
E
Depth: 62.3
Table: 58
Sym/Pol: VG
no/faint flouresence
8.23 x 8.37 x 5.17
Excellent cut

Now, if I get everyone correctly, this is a fairly good diamond. The depth is at the upper end of the spectrum, but within reasonable range. The diamond''s surface is 8.23, which is pretty good.

Now, lets say this was an EGL stone, would it be fair to assume that this is more of an F-G/SI3-I1?

You are on the right track! I am a little pickier about cut and like stones with depths of 60-62, tables from 54-57. Also, you really need crown and pavillion angles to see if the stone is well cut. I like crown and pavillion angles from 34-34/40-41.

 

[ladykemma]

for a 10k budget i would get the best stone i could, in a plain tiffany holder, with a vendor who has a tradeup policy.

2.5 carats ain''t gonna happen. you lady will love you if you buy within your means.