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Should I upgrade my Infinity diamond? Help!

Raindrop

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
7
Hi all,

This may be a bit premature as I've not seen the possible upgrade yet, but I wanted to canvass opinion amongst you helpful people here. My fiance bought me a beautiful crafted by infinity RB almost a year ago now, it's a 1.16 ct E VS2 set in a tiffany replica 6 claw knife edge ring. We got it through Dr Indira Marchant in London who was wonderful and I've had lots of compliments on the ring over the last year.

Unfortunately DSS set in very quickly, although I do love my ring. I had initially been really worried that anything over a carat would be too big but I was wrong! I ended up kicking myself that I hadn't even looked at a 1.45 ct H SI1 which was actually cheaper, as I thought it would be too big. Unsurprisingly it was snapped up very quickly by someone soon after! So anyway, my ring is due its annual service and out of curiosity I had a look at the infinity inventory and saw a 1.65 ct I colour SI1 no flourescence which immediately got my interest. So we're off to London tomorrow to drop my ring off with Indira for its service but we're also looking at the 1.65 which I'm very excited about! Link hopefully here http://www.fortrez.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity&id=793

Now, we're in the UK where upgrades are not really the done thing and my fiance wouldn't even contemplate the idea last year. He's come around to it but is wondering if we should wait a few years. I am a little sentimental and would really like to have a ring I'm completely happy with before we're married. I can't imagine ever wanting anything much bigger than 1.65 as I think it might be too conspicuous, plus I'm a doctor so it wouldn't really suit my work to have anything much bigger.

The colour is something that concerns me but I guess I won't know how I feel about it until I see the diamond tomorrow. I've been a bit spoiled having an E although I would have been happy with G or H, but I must say I do love the icy whiteness. I wouldn't really have contemplated an I colour before and would have preferred it to have flourescence, however the amazing cut of infinitys and the fact that Tiffanys go down to I colour have swayed me! Plus Paul Sledgers, who has been very helpful and patient answering my fiance's many queries via Indira, has said it's a high I colour. He also says it's completely eye clean. The only other very minor issue is that this is a diamond that was recut from a polished stone Infinity purchased from a cutting house whereas we quite like that Infinity can usually tell you about the history of the stone, from rough to beautiful diamond. I think that's probably a silly thing to worry about though and to our knowledge it has never been preowned which was really the important thing for us.

Apologies this has become much longer than I anticipated! So in a nutshell, would you upgrade? We could wait a few years and maybe get a better colour then, but this could actually save my fiance lots of money if I end up happy with an I colour! Also, I don't know what might be available in a few years and what prices will be like. Thank you if you've read this far!

Ps my ring size is 53 which I think is about 6.5 if that has any bearing.
 

MissGotRocks

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
14,341
Well, it would certainly be an upgrade in size - almost half carat! I guess the real test will be how the color difference affects you. We all have different color thresholds so you'll have to see how you feel about it.

I think the stone itself looks beautiful though - happy hunting! Would the jeweler have any others to choose from as well in case the color bothered you too much?
 

WinkHPD

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
May 3, 2001
Messages
7,516
I for one will be waiting to see what your eyes told you.

The paper is paper, the diamond is the treat for your eyes. When you see the diamond your eyes and your heart rate will tell you whether or not this is the diamond for you!

Please tell Dr. Indira hello from her friend in the States.

Wink
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
58,342
I wouldn't give another thought to the origin of the stone. That really doesn't matter. As Wink says, what matters is whether you love the new stone when you see it. There is going to be a difference between E and I color for sure, and no one but you can be certain what your color tolerance will be. My advice is that if you love it 100%, then do the trade now. If you have any doubts at all, just wait for a G or H. But my advice is to do the trade as soon as possible as diamond prices are rising and you are going to only pay more the longer you wait. Good luck!
 

Raindrop

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
7
Thank you for all your replies! I'm just on the train back from London to Manchester, with a sleeping fiance opposite me after a long day!

So, we have seen the diamond this morning with Indira, who was as incredibly helpful as last time. And.........I really really liked it but we're not yet sure if 100% certain. I was afraid that I would think it looked yellow as soon as I saw it, but actually the first reaction was about size, as we didn't think that it looked that much bigger than mine. That soon changed though when we put it a setting just to see how it looked next to mine and then I noticed a definite diference in size! The clarity didn't bother me at all as I'm really bad at seeing anything even under the loupe. My fiance could see the inclusions but it didn't really bother him either, they seem to be mainly twinning wisps although there is a feather which seems to end close to the girdle but my fiance couldn't be sure.

Regarding the colour, Indira first showed us a ring where I couldn't see any difference at all from mine and it was actually an H compared to my E. When I first saw the 1.65 I RB I was relieved that it initially looked white to me, but then I could notice a difference when I held it next to my E. I can't say it bothered me that much, although it's a bit annoying that I couldn't see a difference between my E and a H, but could with my E and a I. I'm wondering if H is my sweet spot but then the I is much larger than my E and the H I saw so the colour may have been more visible.

The only other thing was that my fiance didn't think the 1.65 had as much sparkle as my 1.16. I could kind of see what he meant but it's hard to explain as the 1.65 scores 1:1 on the HCA with excellents for everything except spread. I saw what he meant in that when we looked at tbe 2 diamonds, the 1.65 just seemed to look darker than mine, however this was in sunlight. When I held both under the table, the 1.65 certainly didn't lose any of its size like less well cut diamonds do. Maybe it's just because of the size increase?

So, the crucial question- should I upgrade?! Whilst I love my current ring, the size is a constant hang up for me. The 1.65 would solve that, but I can't pretend I wouldn't prefer a higher colour than I. However, I'm fairly sure that I would be fine with the colour as I won't be wearing it next to an E to continually compare like today! So ultimately I think size is more important to me than colour. And new infinity diamonds in this size, up to H colour and eye clean don't come along very often it seems, so it doesn't seem sensible to wait around, when I will probably be fine with I colour! And who knows what will happen with prices rising? This upgrade would cost £3600 including a new crown for the setting. And my fiance is being incredibly generous in that he just wants me to be happy, although I think ideally he would like me to prefer my current one as he's so sensitive to colour and clarity.

Anyway, we have a couple of days to decide so any more opinions are very welcome! And thank you Wink for your wise words; unfortunately I saw your reply after we'd seen Indira but I'll make sure my fiance passes on your greeting when he speaks to her on Monday. I'll also post some pictures of my current diamond when I get home, at my fiance's request!

Thank you for your help
 

dinamit

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
465
Hello Raindrop,

I read your topic with great gusto as I could just imagine you going in and out if Indira's office - she is great isn't she?

How great that you have a fiance who is so involved with your ring. My man wanted me to be happy, but didn't have personal preferences with regard to colour/grade, let alone request that I post ring pictures for opinions!

Having read everything, I get a funny feeling that if you upgrade to the 'I' now, it won't be your 'forever' ring.
Sure you will be happy with the size (and even that might change), but even though there won't be an 'E' to compare to on a daily basis, I bet you will check the Infinity inventory now and again because 'I' is not exactly what your heart wants. The moment you see an 'H' or a 'G' in a desired size, you will want to upgrade.

I would stick it out, unless you (and your fiance) are happy to have another upgrade in a few years' time.
Btw, 1.16 is huuuge by UK standards, as I am sure you know. I will check in a bit later to see that 'E' beauty of yours.

Good luck deciding!
 

suchende

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
1,002
I wouldn't upgrade, especially not before the wedding or any anniversaries. Just my 2¢.
 

valchiria

Shiny_Rock
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
129
I think that the next year you will want another upgrade for the color :)
 

Amys Bling

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
11,025
You really need to see the stone in person to see how big a part color plays for your tastes... only you can judge. My concern is that DSS always sets in... so keep that in mind. I think no matter what, people always get used to looking at their diamond size on their hand and then it becomes normal to your eyes and then you inevitable think it looks small.... it is a viscious cycle :naughty:

Really judge your color preference in all lighting types and assess if color is worth sacraficing for size- for some, they really crave lower colors and love the bigger size.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
I happen to wear a size 6.5. I happened to upgrade from a 1.16ct to a 1.67ct last year. I happened to go from a G color to a J color to get my upgrade. I don't regret it one little bit :devil: Yes, you can see more color *compared to your E*. But you won't be wearing both on your hand now will you?

Here is a photo. The size difference is very noticable in daily wear once set. And the color is a non-issue utterly and completely.

Your fiance's comment on the "less sparkle" in the larger stone makes me think the stones may differ in lgf ratio, or possible he is just noticing the larger bolder flashes of a bigger stone. The optics are just different.

So I say dooooo it!

FWIW I obsessed endlessly abou the color of my diamond prior to buying it too. Now a year later I am 100% happy.

116vs167.jpg
 

bright ice

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
4,327
I say go for it. I think you will be surprised how the I looks in such a super cut stone!!
 

Raindrop

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
7
Hi all, thank you very much for the helpful replies!

Dinamit- I take it you've got a diamond from Indira as well, yes she is great and her office is so nice in such a beautiful building! And I love the lighting in the lift, it's so sparkle inducing!

Dreamer_D- It was really helpful to hear about your experience and I'm so pleased you're happy with your upgrade. Your ring looks gorgeous, very big and I couldn't believe it was a J, so white!! I was really interested in what you said about the lgf ratio perhaps having an effect on the 'sparkliness' perception as I don't know much about this. I kind of had just focused on the aspects that the HCA looks at ie table, depth, crown and pavilion, and as infinity have such well cut diamonds I assumed they would all look the same. After a bit more reading I can see that the star and lgf may affect the balance of fire, brightness and scintillation.

So I'd be grateful for any input from you clever people on the difference I should expect between my 1.16 and the 1.65. The 1.65 has both higher star and LGF than the 1.16. I've posted the numbers below and the images.

Current diamond

http://www.highperformancediamonds.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity&id=246
(Bought from Dr Indira Marchant but can't find link)

1.16 E VS2
6.76-6.79x4.17
table 55.2
depth 61.6
crown 34.4
pavilion 40.8
star 50
LGF 75
HCA score 1.2 with excellent light return, fire and scintillation, and very good spread

Current 1.16 arrows



Current 1.16 hearts



Current 1.16 ASET



Current 1.16 Idealscope



Ok it won't let me add more than 4 attachments so I'll put the details of the possible upgrade in the next post

Arrows 1.16.jpg

Hearts 1.16.jpg

ASET 1.16.jpg

Idealscope 1.16.jpg
 

Raindrop

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
7
Possible Upgrade diamond

http://www.fortrez.com/index.php?page=view-id-diamond-infinity&id=793

1.65 I SI1 (twinning wisps, feathers, crystals)
7.59-7.62x4.67
table 56.2
depth 61.5
crown 34.7
pavilion 40.7
star 53
LGF 78
HCA score 1.1 with excellent light return, fire and scintillation and very good spread

Upgrade 1.65 arrows- these do seem a little thinner to me than my current diamond



Upgrade 1.65 hearts- I can see that there are splits visible in the Vs of the hearts whereas there are none in my current one. Also, there looks like a bigger separation between the hearts and the arrowheads



Upgrade 1.65 ASET



Upgrade 1.65 Idealscope




So I'd be very grateful for any input please into what the difference in 'look' may be in the 1.65 compared to my 1.16. As I said I think they both look sparkly but my fiance thought the bigger one was less sparkly and looked kind of darker, but that was in direct light although not too bright. Thank you!

1.65 arrows.jpg

1.65 hearts.jpg

1.65 ASET.jpg

1.65 Idealscope.jpg
 

Raindrop

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
7
Almost forgot- I said I would post some photos of my current diamond so here they are! My fiance took them yesterday as he thought we may not see it again if we get the upgrade. I have to say, although it's definitely sparkly when I wear it I was pretty impressed by the photos!

1.16-E-VS2-web.jpg

likes-the-cactus-web.jpg
 

Rachela99

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
1
I say go for it! Now I'm no expert on the images so can't help you there, but I imagine that in such well cut diamonds differences will be very subtle. Although the clever people here may know a bit more about lgf etc.

It seems that you'll be less bothered about the colour than you are currently about the size, and ERs in the UK do seem to be getting bigger!! Your current stone looks absolutely amazing and I'm sure the upgrade would too, just bigger!

Good luck!!
 

kelpie

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 8, 2008
Messages
2,362
I got all my upgrading done before the wedding. I told my husband I'll be sentimental about the rings we were married with. I'm now extremely satisfied. If you don't mind the color (I bet you'll like the J) I think it's a great idea to do it before the wedding and it is going to look far larger.
 

risingsun

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
5,549
If you think that the larger stone looks darker, sparkles less, and are not sure about the color, I would say to wait until a better fit comes along. I have noticed the difference among some of the stones I have gotten, then upgraded. It wasn't quite good enough until I found the stone that was right for me. I have found my sweet spot to be an AGS0, H&A, G VS2. Which ever way it goes, enjoy your diamond!
 

Raindrop

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
7
kelpie said:
I got all my upgrading done before the wedding. I told my husband I'll be sentimental about the rings we were married with. I'm now extremely satisfied. If you don't mind the color (I bet you'll like the J) I think it's a great idea to do it before the wedding and it is going to look far larger.


Yes, that's exactly how I feel!! But it seems more usual to upgrade after the wedding!
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
The diamonds are pretty similar by the numbers! Larger diamonds have larger virtual facets, so just by virtue of size alone they will have a *different* optical appearance than smaller diamonds. In bright sunlight, well cut stones do go dark. Can you go visit the diamond again and look at it in a wider range of lighting environments?

Alternativly, increase your budget and wait for something else to come up!
 

Lula

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
4,615
I've owned four Infnity diamonds (through upgrades) -- a .53 J color, a 1.01 M color, a 1.01 I color and my current G color which is .77 carats. So much smaller than the 1.67 you're looking at, but I can tell you that the Infinity stones I've seen tend to have a consistent look to them. So I don't think you're seeing differences in cut between the two stones. What are you seeing? Well, it could be a couple things --

You may be seeing differences in color (some stones have a more silver-grey tint to them, some a more brown tint, and some a more yellow tint -- yet they can all be the same color grade). You are used to an E color, which is a very white stone. So the darkness you may see in the larger stone may be just the slight body color of the I color. Your eye may be seeing this as "darkness."

Or i t may be due to the physical properties of the rough the stone was cut from -- there's been some discussion on PS lately about diamond "transparency," which seems to be a quality independent of color grade (I don't really understand it that well, but yssie may be able to explain it).

And, as Dreamer mentioned, it is tough to compare diamonds of such different sizes -- diamonds above a certain size (@ 1. 5 carats) simply have a different look to them in terms of sparkle and scintillation. But this can be true in smaller size stones, too. As I mentioned, I've owned Infinity diamonds in the .50 to 1.00 carat range, and there are differences in the nature of the sparkle and scintillation between my under 1 carat Infinity diamonds and my 1.00 carat Infinity stones that I believe are purely due to the size differences.

Finally, it may just be the lighting you were seeing the stone in; your eyesight; your preferences -- everyone sees things a little differently.

So my advice is, you really need to consider the 1.67 stone on its own merits -- it just will not be the same as your current stone. So you must love it as it is, like risingsun notes, or you will be looking at upgrading again (which is not necessarily a bad thing, but may not be something you want to do).
 

Raindrop

Rough_Rock
Joined
Apr 1, 2011
Messages
7
Thanks Dreamer_D and Lula for your replies. I think it seems it's probably the larger size that makes it perform differently, as you say. Out of interest though, how would the differences in the star and lgf affect the look? Would it make more of a difference if both stones were the same size? I'm getting a bit confused about how the star and lgf affect the balance of brightness, fire and scintillation.

Also, what's the significance in the thinner arrows, the splits in the hearts and the bigger gap between the hearts and arrrowheads in the 1.65?

Thanks
 

Lula

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 5, 2009
Messages
4,615
Raindrop|1301950931|2887680 said:
Thanks Dreamer_D and Lula for your replies. I think it seems it's probably the larger size that makes it perform differently, as you say. Out of interest though, how would the differences in the star and lgf affect the look? Would it make more of a difference if both stones were the same size? I'm getting a bit confused about how the star and lgf affect the balance of brightness, fire and scintillation.

Also, what's the significance in the thinner arrows, the splits in the hearts and the bigger gap between the hearts and arrrowheads in the 1.65?

Thanks

The arrows in the larger stone are thinner due to the slightly longer lgfs (78). Your current stone has thicker arrows and lgfs of 75. Longer lgfs translate not only into thinner arrows, but also a larger "gap" in the hearts images and a tiny cleft in the top of the heart. Longer lgfs often mean that the stone will have more smaller flashes of color and white sparkle off the arrows. Thicker arrows often mean broader flashes of color and white sparkle. Even though the difference between 75 and 78 lgf is rather small, it could be noticeable to your eyes.

Here is a link to an article by Good Old Gold that explains the minor facets (stars and lgfs). http://www.goodoldgold.com/Articles/MinorFacets/

If you are able to see the stone in person again (which I would advise), Indira will be able to talk to you in more detail about the details of each stone's particular cut parameters, and how they may influence the stone's appearance. Again, I'm not sure the stones' lgfs are different enough to influence what you are seeing in real life -- I would guess the stones' size and color differences have more of an impact, but that's just a guess on my part.

The nice thing about working with a small company like Infinity is both Paul and his vendors know their inventory very well, so they can answer detailed questions about each of their stones. But, one thing to remember, is your eyes should decide -- you've lived with the 1 carat E for about a year now, and you know how it looks in a variety of lighting conditions. The 1.67 I color stone will be different -- not "worse" or "better" than your current stone because they are both well-cut -- but different.

And be prepared, if you do decide to upgrade, you may go through a period of "mourning" for your former stone. It's happened to me each time -- weird as it sounds!

I just noticed that the 1 carat I color I1 clarity Infinity I traded in for my current .77 G VS1 has been sold (!) and I felt a little twinge of sadness when I saw that, so think about how you'll feel to say goodbye to your current stone...gemstones do have a lot of sentimentality attached to them, and I think it's wise to consider those feelings, too.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
Lula is correct about the effect that lgf has on appearance, BUT in this case with them being so close, only 3% difference, I suspect that far more of the difference in optical appearance that you might be detecting would be due to the difference in ct weight rather than lgf per se. The carat weight means larger virtual facets changing the appearance of the stone. And I think this would have much more of an effect than lgf at the differences you have between these stones. That is my guess. I find that my own 1.67ct, in some lighting, definitely looks "darker" in that is had bloder almost chunkier facet patterning (contrast) compared to my smaller diamond(s). The eye just cannot discern as well the difference between light and dark in smaller stones. You get larger stones, larger facets (both real and virtual) and then the eye can easily see that some are lit up and some are dark, and it creates a chunkier look, in my experience.

If anything, the lgf ratio would suggest that the LARGER stone you are looking at would appear brighter with more pin flash, and the smaller stone more chunky. But, since you observation was the opposite, that leads me to think it has nothing to do with the lgf ratio at all and more to do with the gross carat weight or else some other aspect of lighting, diamond color, or even cleanliness of the diamond (dirtt diamonds look different that really clean ones).

You need to see it again and assess it on its own merits, not in comparison to your present stone. And yup, it will look different! But mostly because it is bigger.
 
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