OMB--Feedback?

[Haven]

Hi, Rocky Talkers! Can you help me?

My jeweler recently brought in a gorgeous antique cushion. I fell in love with it the moment I saw it. I plan to trade in my current engagement ring for the antique cushion, and I just want to run the specs by my trusted PS Rocky Talkers, first. I originally thought it was a J/VS something, but it just came back from GIA with these ratings:

Here they are:
· 2.30ct
· SI-1
· O-P
· Polish: G
· Symm: G
· Depth 62.6
· Table 53%
· Girdle VTN-VTK Faceted
· Culet LGE
· Meas: 8.10x7.92x4.96
· Shape: OMB
· Fluor: MED Blue

I KNOW cushions are impossible to judge by the numbers alone, so as for visual specs I can tell you it's beautiful. I love my current modern cushion, and it pains me to say this, but when I look at them next to each other my current stone just pales in comparison. Literally.

This is what I'm looking for: Assuming these specs are for a visually stunning stone, can you give me a ballpark figure for a reasonable price for this stone? It isn't a recut, it's an antique cushion, and was in someone's family for over a century, if that makes any difference. The stone had an appraisal or maybe even an old cert, I don't remember, that said it was a J/VS1 I believe, so I was surprised to see such different specs come back from GIA. I knew they might be off, but this is a big difference.

What do you think? What's a reasonable asking price for a knockout antique cushion with these specs? Is this even answerable?

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm 99% sure I'm going to trade in for this stone. I just don't feel right doing this without first asking for feedback from my PS family. (Or is it validation that I'm looking for?)

Thanks so much for your help and insight, I really appreciate it!

 

[natascha]

I have no clue regarding prices in that size but found a couple of examples at oldworlddiamonds, will be interesting to hear what the experts say.
http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/inv_details.php?ID=439&SHAPE=OM&PAGE=3 close specs to your diamond, although EGL cert, at $9240

http://www.oldworlddiamonds.com/inv_details.php?ID=1471&SHAPE=OM&PAGE=3 also EGL, worse face up size but an I VS2 for $18515

 

[diamondseeker2006]

How exciting, Haven! My first comment is to say that you need an ironclad return policy because you need to get the very thin girdle checked out to see how much is very thin. I wish you had a picture for us because there is no way to judge a cushion without it! I'd love to see it!!! Diameter looks good for the weight.

Here's a comp for a newly cut antique cushion with basically ideal cut but a little smaller:

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/7801/

 

[yssie]

Ohhhh that creamy buttery colour must be absolutely dreamy in-person Haven - how exciting!!


I do agree with DS, an independent appraisal might be a good investment here - an appraiser could give you a better idea of what a fair trade for such a stone would be, whether there are any concerns or things to watch out for in choosing your setting, etc.


And get us some pics!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Better comp from JBEG: a 2.2 ct. M/N VS OEC $10,995, around 9th pic down. Yours has lower color and clarity so wouldn't pay more than the price for this stone.

http://www.jewelsbyericagrace.com/loose_antique_and_estate_diamonds

Sure does make me want one!

 

[Haven]

Thank you for the feedback, ladies!

Diamondseeker--I really appreciate the links. I've found some, but not many, stones with which to compare my potential stone. Really good feedback about the girdle, too, thank you!

Natascha--Thank you for the links!

Yssie--I cannot tell you how often I drool over your ring.
I like the idea of an independent appraiser.
And yes, it is a gorgeous buttery little thing. The fact that I fell so hard for this stone is making me think that I have a thing for lower colors, in general. Whenever I watch Rhino's videos comparing different colors I always think "I really prefer the J to the F" or something along those lines.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

For hearts and arrows stones, I prefer I color and higher. But for antique stones, I like them ALL! I'd have no problem putting an F color halo around an O-P stone to accentuate the color!

(And speaking of loving Yssie's ring, Yssie, I saw you mention doing something to your ring...so what was it? )

 

[yssie]

Thank you for the feedback, ladies!

Diamondseeker--I really appreciate the links. I've found some, but not many, stones with which to compare my potential stone. Really good feedback about the girdle, too, thank you!

Natascha--Thank you for the links!

Yssie--I cannot tell you how often I drool over your ring.
I like the idea of an independent appraiser.
And yes, it is a gorgeous buttery little thing. The fact that I fell so hard for this stone is making me think that I have a thing for lower colors, in general. Whenever I watch Rhino's videos comparing different colors I always think "I really prefer the J to the F" or something along those lines.

Y'know, I think having a noticeably tinted stone makes you realize just how much a ring really is a package deal (or me, anyway!). When stone and setting suit each other and the setting is well thought out and nicely made - you can really tell, and the ring is an incredible piece no matter what style the person actually chose, but a unique stone in a half-hearted setting is just that much more noticeable..!

Really can't wait to see what you decide on for this one, it sounds delicious!

 

[Haven]

I agree, Yssie! I'll be needing some serious PS help to design the setting if we buy this diamond.

I say *if* because now that I've seen more comparable diamonds I'm not so sure this is going to be a fair trade for us. We paid 12K for my 2.01 ct G SI1 modern cushion in 2007, and that's the stone we'll be trading in for this stone, PLUS an additional $3,000. That no longer sounds like a sound deal with the certified specs on the stone.

I originally thought this new stone was a J VS1 or VS2, which makes a big difference. I looked up stones with those specs and 15K seemed to be a fair amount. My jeweler bought the new stone from a private owner who had what must have been an old appraisal of the stone with the J/VS specs on it. I really *love* this stone, and the stats DO NOT CHANGE how much I love it, but the rational part of me doesn't want to completely overpay for the stone just because I love it so.

I'm really bummed. I was on such a high for a while daydreaming about this trade, but I don't want to overpay and I'm just upset about the whole thing.

 

[Sheherizaad]

I can't speak to whether or not the antique aspect makes it more expensive. However, I think your original was too expensive (granted it was a high year).

The cushion my fiance got me is 2.35, rectangular, VG/G, I, strong flourescense, VS2 was $13,800. When appraised, it looked like a G to the appraiser (the flourescence canceled out some of the yellow in the I grade). Very eye clean and clear and insignificant inclusions on the GIA report.

 

[DontSellTelltheTruth]

Hi, Rocky Talkers! Can you help me?

My jeweler recently brought in a gorgeous antique cushion. I fell in love with it the moment I saw it. I plan to trade in my current engagement ring for the antique cushion, and I just want to run the specs by my trusted PS Rocky Talkers, first. I originally thought it was a J/VS something, but it just came back from GIA with these ratings:

Here they are:
· 2.30ct
· SI-1
· O-P
· Polish: G
· Symm: G
· Depth 62.6
· Table 53%
· Girdle VTN-VTK Faceted
· Culet LGE
· Meas: 8.10x7.92x4.96
· Shape: OMB
· Fluor: MED Blue

I KNOW cushions are impossible to judge by the numbers alone, so as for visual specs I can tell you it's beautiful. I love my current modern cushion, and it pains me to say this, but when I look at them next to each other my current stone just pales in comparison. Literally.

This is what I'm looking for: Assuming these specs are for a visually stunning stone, can you give me a ballpark figure for a reasonable price for this stone? It isn't a recut, it's an antique cushion, and was in someone's family for over a century, if that makes any difference. The stone had an appraisal or maybe even an old cert, I don't remember, that said it was a J/VS1 I believe, so I was surprised to see such different specs come back from GIA. I knew they might be off, but this is a big difference.

What do you think? What's a reasonable asking price for a knockout antique cushion with these specs? Is this even answerable?

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm 99% sure I'm going to trade in for this stone. I just don't feel right doing this without first asking for feedback from my PS family. (Or is it validation that I'm looking for?)

Thanks so much for your help and insight, I really appreciate it!

So much depends on the cut of your original and the new one. Can you photograph them both side by side.
Can you post the GIA certs for both?

 

[Haven]

I can't speak to whether or not the antique aspect makes it more expensive. However, I think your original was too expensive (granted it was a high year).

The cushion my fiance got me is 2.35, rectangular, VG/G, I, strong flourescense, VS2 was $13,800. When appraised, it looked like a G to the appraiser (the flourescence canceled out some of the yellow in the I grade). Very eye clean and clear and insignificant inclusions on the GIA report.

I wasn't asking if I paid too much for my original stone.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

It sounds like to me that an even trade with no extra money involved would be the only possibility considering the new stats. The antique stone isn't worth $15,000 from the comps we've seen.

I would love to see pictures of both.

 

[missy]

Haven,
Is your jeweler willing to negotiate perhaps now that the stone came back with a different grade from GIA? Maybe he would be willing to reconsider his offer to you based on this new information?

 

[Sheherizaad]

I wasn't commenting on your original stone just for the sake of commenting and I apologize if it came off like that. In my own awkward way, I was trying to allude to the idea that you shouldn't be using your original stone for a basis on this antique cushion because it seemed kind of high- so for you to pay an add'l 3k on top of that seems like too much you know? Especially in light of considering how much your original stone has appreciated in the last three years....

 

[Haven]

DontSellTheTruth--So, is there a chance that this new cushion MIGHT BE worth it? This gives me hope!

I don't have a great picture of the new cushion, the only one I have was hastily photographed at the jewelers before it went off for certification. In person, they are so very different. My current cushion is a modified brilliant, the unpopular crushed ice look that PSers really dislike. (I love it, by the way. I just fell in love with the new one, and I'm ready for a change.)

The new one has chunky, clear fascinating. I wish I had a good picture, because this one just makes it look awful. The cert for the new stone isn't even in yet, GIA just sent the preliminary results about an hour before I posted here in this thread.

Diamondseeker--That's what I'm currently thinking, much to my despair--that the only deal even worth considering would be an even trade of my stone alone for the new stone alone. As if that is going to happen. The conundrum is that I adore our jeweler, I don't want to work with anyone else, and of course, I can't work with anyone else if I want to trade my ring in, anyway.

At this point I'm thinking that we'll just save up some more cash for the next couple of months and if I still want a vintagey cushion I'll just buy a new stone and keep my original stone. I don't need two diamond solitaire rings, though, so that's not the ideal option.

Here's the best comparison I can make with the only picture I have of the new stone. Ironic that my G looks so warm (I was in an orange room when I took the picture) and the O/P looks so white! Now I really believe I'm a warm stone girl--this is my favorite pic of my current stone, and it doesn't even look warm IRL. Oy.

 

[Sheherizaad]

The only reason I commented as well was because I know when I was in the market for a cushion, every piece of information (even if it was about antique cushions) helped me make a better decision because I had the experience of others to guide me (and still guide me for that matter...)

Again, it was never meant to be offensive.

Good luck in your search.

 

[Haven]

I wasn't commenting on your original stone just for the sake of commenting and I apologize if it came off like that. In my own awkward way, I was trying to allude to the idea that you shouldn't be using your original stone for a basis on this antique cushion because it seemed kind of high- so for you to pay an add'l 3k on top of that seems like too much you know? Especially in light of considering how much your original stone has appreciated in the last three years....

I see what you're saying.
The thing is this: Since we paid 12K for that original stone, our jeweler gives us a 12K credit toward whatever stone we want to buy on upgrade when we trade it in. SO, even if I did overpay (which I don't believe I did, I was a PSer back then) we're still getting the 12K credit toward the new purchase.

I wish jewelers gave you credit for stone appreciation over the years on a trade-in--do you know jewelers that do that? I've never heard of that in an upgrade policy.

ETA: I just read your next response. I wasn't offended by your original comment. However, I also didn't want it to derail this thread into a discussion about the value of my original stone. That isn't my concern right now. I'm concerned with this new stone and trying to be as rational as I can possibly be about the situation. (Which is hard--I love this new stone and I don't want to be rational about it, darn it. And we have the cash to pay for the upgrade and a part of me just wants to be a moron and overpay for it so I can have it in my grubby little paws. Or, on my grubby little hand, for that matter. There. I said it. Please--talk me off the ledge, everyone.)

 

[Sheherizaad]

I've never had a sizeable diamond prior to this so I wish I knew the answer. I've had a lot of experience in 21/22K gold and know that it doesn't start to make a profit for at least 5 years (depending on markets etc)...

Shouldn't trade in depend on the number of years you've had it? I can't possibly imagine having bought my ring today thinking that 20 years from now it's going to only be traded for the same value?

 

[Sheherizaad]

There's also something to be said for you want what you want when you want it. We do it when we buy something more expensive at a drug store because we don't want to treck across town where we know something is a couple of dollars cheaper. It's about a culmination of factors: time, expense, effort, innate feelings, etc.

The question is what's your litmus test? 3k for all of those factors? If so, then get it. If not, then what do you to do console a broken heart?

 

[Haven]

Thank you, Sheherizaad.

You make a good point about upgrades after many years, but I don't know enough about different upgrade policies to speculate. If I wasn't so obsessed with my current conundrum I would go investigate, though, because that is a really good point.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Haven, if I understand you correctly, the $3000 plus your diamond was the deal when everyone thought the antique stone was J VS, right? Well they cannot possibly think you would pay $3000 extra once they see the cert says O-P color???? I feel like with the price your old stone would bring now, they'd still be getting the better deal with an even trade from a financial standpoint. However, I understand the temptation to pay extra just because you love the new stone.

And I have to say, it is exactly the shape antique cushion that I love! So hold on to the hope you can get it, but they HAVE to come down on the price with the color and clarity going down every significantly.

(No vendors that I know of allow more than the original purchase price for trade-ins. There does come a point where it just isn't financially wise to trade in a stone that has been owned for years. In those cases, I think people should just reset the original stone and buy a new one if it's current value is worth far more than they originally paid.)

 

[Haven]

Haven,
Is your jeweler willing to negotiate perhaps now that the stone came back with a different grade from GIA? Maybe he would be willing to reconsider his offer to you based on this new information?

Nope!
We emailed about it and he said he priced it based on what he paid for it and not the grade. We've been working together for years, and this is the first time I've been thrown off by something he said, because I don't understand that logic, and I can't imagine that he really overpaid for a stone from a private buyer, I mean--come on!

I know everyone on PS is big on purchasing stones via the Internet, but I will admit that I really like having a local jeweler. I spend a lot of time talking to our jeweler, he calls me when he has awesome new projects and I go in and we talk about them and get all excited about them together. He shows me the amazing (HUGE!) stones he gets in, even if I have no other reason to go in to the store, because he knows how much I love jewelry.

In addition to that, I'll admit that I like the customer service that we get with a local jeweler. I have very simple tastes other than my small diamond obsession, so this whole diamond venture is really the only material luxury in my otherwise normal life. I like going in to the store and handing over my rings for a good clean, or getting a stone replaced for free because I knocked it out of my eternity band AGAIN, those sorts of things. I know this must sound very silly to some PSers, but it's just something I really like about the whole jewelry experience.

That being said, I'm very surprised at how this is all going down. I'm surprised that he was so off on the color, and that he isn't willing to change the price now that the specs game back so different. My GUESS is that he knows he can get what he's asking for the stone from some other buyer. We live in one of those areas where people will pay large premiums for things without thinking twice about it.

 

[Sheherizaad]

Haven, if I understand you correctly, the $3000 plus your diamond was the deal when everyone thought the antique stone was J VS, right? Well they cannot possibly think you would pay $3000 extra once they see the cert says O-P color???? I feel like with the price your old stone would bring now, they'd still be getting the better deal with an even trade from a financial standpoint. However, I understand the temptation to pay extra just because you love the new stone.

And I have to say, it is exactly the shape antique cushion that I love! So hold on to the hope you can get it, but they HAVE to come down on the price with the color and clarity going down every significantly.

(No vendors that I know of allow more than the original purchase price for trade-ins. There does come a point where it just isn't financially wise to trade in a stone that has been owned for years. In those cases, I think people should just reset the original stone and buy a new one if it's current value is worth far more than they originally paid.)

Oh my God- so are you saying that if I pay 2k today, that at best I will never get more than 2k back- ever? What if I sold it to someone else (and not my original vendor)? Please say it isn't so!!

 

[Haven]

diamondseeker--Yes! You understand correctly. I share your confusion.

I don't want to make my jeweler sound like the bad guy, he's not. He's wonderful. I adore him and his entire operation. He was strangely laid back about the antique stone, and by that I mean he wasn't surprised that it didn't have a cert when he bought it, and I don't think he was planning on certifying it until DH and I asked him to do so. My hunch is that he thinks the stone speaks for itself and needs no specs to back it up, and perhaps there are people who buy that way, but I'm just not used to that. The truth is that it really does speak for itself. It puts other stones to shame. The market value of this stone is so far off from my perceived value of it, and that's why I'm having such a hard time just letting go and saying "This is not a good deal. Thank you, but no thank you."

Gah. I'm rambling. Excuse me. I was so upset about this that I neglected our dinner, which is now a smoking heap of horrbleness in the kitchen, and my poor husband is now eating fried eggs and toast for dinner.

 

[Haven]

Haven, if I understand you correctly, the $3000 plus your diamond was the deal when everyone thought the antique stone was J VS, right? Well they cannot possibly think you would pay $3000 extra once they see the cert says O-P color???? I feel like with the price your old stone would bring now, they'd still be getting the better deal with an even trade from a financial standpoint. However, I understand the temptation to pay extra just because you love the new stone.

And I have to say, it is exactly the shape antique cushion that I love! So hold on to the hope you can get it, but they HAVE to come down on the price with the color and clarity going down every significantly.

(No vendors that I know of allow more than the original purchase price for trade-ins. There does come a point where it just isn't financially wise to trade in a stone that has been owned for years. In those cases, I think people should just reset the original stone and buy a new one if it's current value is worth far more than they originally paid.)

Oh my God- so are you saying that if I pay 2k today, that at best I will never get more than 2k back- ever? What if I sold it to someone else (and not my original vendor)? Please say it isn't so!!

I'm no expert on upgrade policies, but I do believe that is the case. I haven't heard about anything different in the threads.
I think the general idea is that it is difficult to ever recoup what you paid for your stone if you sell it privately or to another jewelry, but I could be wrong.
It's a good thing we buy diamonds because we love them, and not because we're looking for a good investment.

 

[Sheherizaad]

I honestly went into this thinking it was a good investment! Ugh...if I bought 22kt gold, in ten years I'd be making double!!!

Dagnabit... but diamonds sparkle so...

 

[LGK]

Okay. On one hand $12K trade in plus additional $3K seems pretty darn high. However, finding the exact color, cut, shape and so forth that you want in an antique stone can be worth paying for. And since you're able to see that yes, it's amazing, and you have a trade in with this jeweler? Honestly, just do it. And screw worrying about if it was a deal or not.

But only if you're over the moon about it and it seems perfect. I mean yes, you might find something else out there that is close to as perfect, that is a bit cheaper, but you'd have to lay out $11K (or whatever) out of pocket for it- and so how does that help? It's not like you have an upgrade policy with JbEG or whomever, y'know?

So on one hand, I do think the jeweler is making out like a bandit here, but on the other hand, you're not too likely to be thinking about the $3K you spent on it years down the road, you'll be enjoying the beautiful stone on your hand. So, though it is pricey, it isn't a bad plan IMO really. It is lovely, and probably faces much whiter than O/P. (Victor Canera got my OEC in the mail, which is M colored, and he thought it faced up like a G; antique cuts frequently look way, way whiter than their certs suggest.)

Also I keep reminding myself prices have gone up considerably recently, so it's possible that this price isn't that out of line compared to what we'll be seeing from other retailers with antique pieces, like OWD etc.

Good luck Haven! It's beautiful!

 

[iheartscience]

If you love it that much I think the extra $3k is worth it. And I can see why you love it-it's GORGEOUS and it is bigger than your old one! But I'm not that rational when it comes to fun purchases! (I swear I'm good about big stuff like cars and houses!)

Plus in my opinion there are a lot of old cuts available but not all of them really speak to me...if this one speaks to you I would just think of it as "only" $3k and go for it.

 

[LALove]

Hi Haven- 1st of all, I think that's a really gorgeous stone. I think the price is a bit high - It's not a killer deal but I don't think it's a total rip off either.

For comparison-- here's a gorgeous antique OMC - 2.48 carat, K, VSI and face up of 8.33mm/8.10mm for $13k:
http://oldworlddiamonds.com/inv_details.php?ID=1058&SHAPE=OM&PAGE=4

However, I'd like to make 2 points for you to consider:

Keep in mind that prices at B&M shops are normally (not always but most of the time) a bit higher than online retailer prices for the same or similar stone (more overhead)- and comparing online prices to B&M shop prices isn't comparing apples to apples. What I mean is, purchasing a stone from Blue Nile (for example) may save you some money, but you're not going to get the same "perks" that you mentioned you like above that you'd get by having a trusted local jeweler with a B&M shop.

Also- if you tried to sell your current stone on your own or trade it in to another jeweler, you'd probably only recover about half, at best, of the original cost. (I sold my first e-ring and lost a bit over 50% of what I paid.) So, let's say you sold your current ring and made 6k profit. If you applied that $6k to the above diamond I linked, you'd still have to fork over $7k for it...

I'd keep those 2 factors in mind when making the decision to trade in for that lovely cushion.

Maybe you can see if your jeweler can find a similar cushion for $12k- ie an even trade in?