OEC questions and evaluation help

[bunnycat]

I didn't want to thread jack someone else thread,so I went ahead and started a new on. After someone asked me what I thought about older diamonds, I started looking around and now feel completely fascinated by them. Unfortunately, it seems everything I spent days and weeks trying to learn to make a good decision about RBC is now out the window on these guys.

I have found a couple that I really think I'd like to look at, and in the other thread it was suggested that your own eyes and instinct are the best for these, as there's no hard and fast rules.

Here are some samples I've seen that I find interesting. All of them have EGL evaluations (and I've read some threads on this. It will not likely be something ever for resale. I just has to be good, clean and sparkly for me.) If I should manage to get my act together and figure these out enough to seriously consider getting one for my ring, should I have it appraised or evaluated in any other way during the return period?

First up:

K VS2, seems nice but has a very thin girdle...Could/would a jeweler refuse to set a stone with a very thin girdle? (The setting it would go in is an antique style 8 prong head). I like it, but could wish for a little more warmth from what I see in the color of the photo.



Then:

L VS1, thin-medium girdle. Seems nice to my untrained eyes, still would like it a little warmer.



And:

K VVS2, it's large (almost 7mm) but listed as poor symmetry. Being so large, and below our budget, could (or even should) I contemplate having it recut and repolished if I went for it? I've read that's a possibility and think that's the only way I'd consider this one. The VVS2 and the seeming to have room to "improve" it is what tempts me.

 

[Christina...]

I'm not an expert, as I've just recently become really fascinated by these beauties as well, but I guess I'm not really thrilled by any of your choices. I'm sure that's where personal preference and seeing them in person comes in though. I've also noticed that it is difficult to get really great pics of older cut stones as well. The pics from OWD leave alot to be desired. jbEG does a great job and I think that EWJ does alright, Lang too, and SS will take additional pics for you if you ask.

What exactly is it that your looking for? Something in the 1 ct range and ideally LM color?

 

[Skippy123]

I like the second one but it is hard to tell w/out more pics

 

[bunnycat]

I'm not an expert, as I've just recently become really fascinated by these beauties as well, but I guess I'm not really thrilled by any of your choices. I'm sure that's where personal preference and seeing them in person comes in though. I've also noticed that it is difficult to get really great pics of older cut stones as well. The pics from OWD leave alot to be desired. jbEG does a great job and I think that EWJ does alright, Lang too, and SS will take additional pics for you if you ask.

What exactly is it that your looking for? Something in the 1 ct range and ideally LM color?

Thanks for the info. Is there any specific reason you dislike them? I'm certainly untrained in this and would appreciate any suggestions or logic you may have for your choices and reasoning.

I am mainly looking for something that has night bright, big chunky flashes, eye clean and a warm color. The ring is going to be yellow gold and the diamond will be sitting in basically a petal-cup, so it will be surrounded pretty much. I'm not as concerned with actual carat weight as I am about measured size. It has to fit in the 6-6.5mm range and from what I've seen, that varies wildly with weight on these.

Skippy- can you tell me what you like about the second one that you don't about the first?

Here is one other. It's an L SI1. Any thoughts? I like it except for the SI1 part.

 

[Christina...]

I think it's because I prefer a strong checkboard pattern, and I may be wrong but I think thats found more in Transitionals than OEC's. I really like a strong faceting pattern and the first and third pic don't appear to have that to me, of course they are not photographed at a great angle either. I do like the most recent pic that you posted of the L SI1. Have you seen an SI1 in person? It sounds like clarity could be a deal breaker for you. Are you looking for a stone that is mind as well as eye clean, or will you be happy if you can't see any inclusions, even if they are there somewhere?

 

[Christina...]

This one is no longer available, but I really love the strong faceting, and the bold flashes of light.

http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/Jewelry/Loose-Diamonds/179-Loose-Old-European-Cut/18854170_9z8hK5#!i=1461206092&k=HSH6rNp

 

[bunnycat]

I think it's because I prefer a strong checkboard pattern, and I may be wrong but I think thats found more in Transitionals than OEC's. I really like a strong faceting pattern and the first and third pic don't appear to have that to me, of course they are not photographed at a great angle either. I do like the most recent pic that you posted of the L SI1. Have you seen an SI1 in person? It sounds like clarity could be a deal breaker for you. Are you looking for a stone that is mind as well as eye clean, or will you be happy if you can't see any inclusions, even if they are there somewhere?

I've really been pondering that question. I think it may depend on the severity and placement of them. I haven't seen the SI1 in person but am considering calling about it. I like the color really well and well, it doesn't LOOK overly included in the photo, but again y'all are right I'd have to see it. It may be more of an issue for me in the RBC where it's all focus, all the time on symmetry and perfection. Whereas, I feel like with these older guys, with all their charm and personality, it's part of the package that somethings going to be a little wacky.

It's kind of like my boyfriend says about older instruments (he plays baroque flute) and how really good old instruments are almost always quirky and have personality, and you have to like that about them. I kind of feel the same way with these OEC and maybe feel like I could cut them a bit of slack in that aspect, as long as I can't see it without a loupe. In fact, if I can't see it without a loupe, I'd probably not want to loupe it myself to know where they are, but perhaps have someone else do it to see what they are, if that makes sense.

I do have a call in to JBEG to see if they can find anything in my specs.

 

[Christina...]

It makes wonderful sense. I purchased a VVS1 because my husband couldn't stand the thought of an inclusion lurking somewhere in there, but I have an asscher and step cuts are a whole other world.

I agree with you though, I like the romantic feel and history of the OEC OMC and ACs. And I don't think that I would require that it be perfect by all standards. Somehow I think that they would lose a lot of their personality that way. I certainly don't think that they are for everyone either. I would ask the vendor to take a good look at it for you and make a judgement on it's eye cleanliness. I would be sure to tell him what your definition of eye clean is too so that there is no confusion. If you decide to order the stone in to have a look for yourself I would be sure of what the return policy is. Is this a well know vendor that your working with?

 

[bunnycat]

It makes wonderful sense. I purchased a VVS1 because my husband couldn't stand the thought of an inclusion lurking somewhere in there, but I have an asscher and step cuts are a whole other world.

I agree with you though, I like the romantic feel and history of the OEC OMC and ACs. And I don't think that I would require that it be perfect by all standards. Somehow I think that they would lose a lot of their personality that way. I certainly don't think that they are for everyone either. I would ask the vendor to take a good look at it for you and make a judgement on it's eye cleanliness. I would be sure to tell him what your definition of eye clean is too so that there is no confusion. If you decide to order the stone in to have a look for yourself I would be sure of what the return policy is. Is this a well know vendor that your working with?

OWD (Adam) and the SI1 isn't available anymore, unfortunately. But he's going to look for some others based on the specs. I'll probably email him again and do what you say about the eye clean-ness.

 

[Christina...]

I've heard other people have had really great luck with Adam. He sometimes has access to inventory that isn't listed yet. I'm sure if you tell him exactly what your looking for, he will do everything that he can to help you. I'll keep my eyes open too. Are you interested in a finished piece at all, or are you only looking for loose? jbEG mentioned to me a couple of weeks ago, that a source she works with has access to a lot of new inventory and gave her dibs on it, so you may want to contact them as well. Erica is fantastic.

 

[bunnycat]

I've heard other people have had really great luck with Adam. He sometimes has access to inventory that isn't listed yet. I'm sure if you tell him exactly what your looking for, he will do everything that he can to help you. I'll keep my eyes open too. Are you interested in a finished piece at all, or are you only looking for loose? jbEG mentioned to me a couple of weeks ago, that a source she works with has access to a lot of new inventory and gave her dibs on it, so you may want to contact them as well. Erica is fantastic.

He's been very helpful and already sent me some info on another stone not posted and will have pics and videos of some to come. And thank you for the info about Erica also.

Mostly I am looking for a loose stone since we have a setting (finally) we can agree on. But I think we better check about those thin girdles and see if there would be any setting problems. I'd hate to blow our budget and then find out they won't set it because of the girdle or the fact that these guys are a little more out of round than their modern counterparts.

Here's the setting:

 

[Christina...]

Your setting is beautiful! Great point too, about OEC often times being out of round. I've seen a few that I really liked but felt that I would either have to bezel the stone or a custom halo made to offset any wonkiness and that just sounds like a nightmare to me!

If you are just looking for the look of old cut, but really desire the more perfect specs of a modern cut, there are a couple of vendors that carry modern antique cuts, such as Good old Gold, Leon Mege, Engagement Rings Direct, all with fantastic reputations and willing to go the distance for their customers. It sounds like you've fallen in love with the romantism of a true unique, but take a look.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/7137/

I chose the M to show you because you metioned that you liked the lower color grades in these cuts, and this one is a VS2 so I suspect that there won't be any eye clean issues and it also has a nice spread, so it will give you nice finger coverage.

ETA The AVRs are also cut for superior light performance, so you would be getting a serious blingy ring without all the guess work and headache of ordering and returning...possibly hundreds of times.

 

[bunnycat]

Your setting is beautiful! Great point too, about OEC often times being out of round. I've seen a few that I really liked but felt that I would either have to bezel the stone or a custom halo made to offset any wonkiness and that just sounds like a nightmare to me!

If you are just looking for the look of old cut, but really desire the more perfect specs of a modern cut, there are a couple of vendors that carry modern antique cuts, such as Good old Gold, Leon Mege, Engagement Rings Direct, all with fantastic reputations and willing to go the distance for their customers. It sounds like you've fallen in love with the romantism of a true unique, but take a look.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/7137/

I chose the M to show you because you metioned that you liked the lower color grades in these cuts, and this one is a VS2 so I suspect that there won't be any eye clean issues and it also has a nice spread, so it will give you nice finger coverage.

ETA The AVRs are also cut for superior light performance, so you would be getting a serious blingy ring without all the guess work and headache of ordering and returning...possibly hundreds of times.

MEOW! Christina- thank you for looking. I did see the AVCs on GOG, but didn't know other sites had them too so I will check there also. That one is so pretty, but a little over budget for the stone, unfortunately, unless I can do some wangling with the budget. I'm gonna keep searching though. That warm candlelight color and warm ivory tone is really up my alley.

And I don't have any problem going with a newer vintage style cut like the AVC, I like the idea of actual "antique" but as you say, we're really going to have to do some double checking on the setting first. It may just take some time to find something. Then again, I look at the setting and it cries "RUBY!" to me sometimes too.

 

[Christina...]

Forgot to ask before, was there a particular reason why you needed the stone to be 6-6.5mm? To fit in the head of your setting? Typically the heads can be changed to fit a larger or smaller stone. I'm assuming that the setting that you have decided on is a stock setting? That would put you in the .8-1ct range in a modern round, but as you said before, with a true antique there is A LOT of wiggle room.

 

[Christina...]

Your setting is beautiful! Great point too, about OEC often times being out of round. I've seen a few that I really liked but felt that I would either have to bezel the stone or a custom halo made to offset any wonkiness and that just sounds like a nightmare to me!

If you are just looking for the look of old cut, but really desire the more perfect specs of a modern cut, there are a couple of vendors that carry modern antique cuts, such as Good old Gold, Leon Mege, Engagement Rings Direct, all with fantastic reputations and willing to go the distance for their customers. It sounds like you've fallen in love with the romantism of a true unique, but take a look.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/7137/

I chose the M to show you because you metioned that you liked the lower color grades in these cuts, and this one is a VS2 so I suspect that there won't be any eye clean issues and it also has a nice spread, so it will give you nice finger coverage.

ETA The AVRs are also cut for superior light performance, so you would be getting a serious blingy ring without all the guess work and headache of ordering and returning...possibly hundreds of times.

MEOW! Christina- thank you for looking. I did see the AVCs on GOG, but didn't know other sites had them too so I will check there also. That one is so pretty, but a little over budget for the stone, unfortunately, unless I can do some wangling with the budget. I'm gonna keep searching though. That warm candlelight color and warm ivory tone is really up my alley.

And I don't have any problem going with a newer vintage style cut like the AVC, I like the idea of actual "antique" but as you say, we're really going to have to do some double checking on the setting first. It may just take some time to find something. Then again, I look at the setting and it cries "RUBY!" to me sometimes too.

Leon and ERD I believe only have the cushion version of this cut and they all have their own branded name. The AVC and AVRs are specific to GOG. So, if your heart is set on a round then you may be out of luck with a new cut? But, truly I can't say that for sure. If I was as brave and good at it as DreamerD and Gypsy I would go on the ebay hunt for a stone for you, but that's just a scary world for me based on my knowledge. I'd bet that if you paged them and asked for their help specifically they would be more that happy to help you. They have been around for a long time and really know their stuff, as do many others here.

 

[Christina...]

This actually may work nicely for you, it's the perfect size and looks like a beauty. You could have the stone removed from the setting and have it set in the one you've chosen....

http://www.langantiques.com/products/item/10-1-4566

 

[audball]

Your setting is beautiful! Great point too, about OEC often times being out of round. I've seen a few that I really liked but felt that I would either have to bezel the stone or a custom halo made to offset any wonkiness and that just sounds like a nightmare to me!

If you are just looking for the look of old cut, but really desire the more perfect specs of a modern cut, there are a couple of vendors that carry modern antique cuts, such as Good old Gold, Leon Mege, Engagement Rings Direct, all with fantastic reputations and willing to go the distance for their customers. It sounds like you've fallen in love with the romantism of a true unique, but take a look.

http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/7137/

I chose the M to show you because you metioned that you liked the lower color grades in these cuts, and this one is a VS2 so I suspect that there won't be any eye clean issues and it also has a nice spread, so it will give you nice finger coverage.

ETA The AVRs are also cut for superior light performance, so you would be getting a serious blingy ring without all the guess work and headache of ordering and returning...possibly hundreds of times.

MEOW! Christina- thank you for looking. I did see the AVCs on GOG, but didn't know other sites had them too so I will check there also. That one is so pretty, but a little over budget for the stone, unfortunately, unless I can do some wangling with the budget. I'm gonna keep searching though. That warm candlelight color and warm ivory tone is really up my alley.

And I don't have any problem going with a newer vintage style cut like the AVC, I like the idea of actual "antique" but as you say, we're really going to have to do some double checking on the setting first. It may just take some time to find something. Then again, I look at the setting and it cries "RUBY!" to me sometimes too.

Leon and ERD I believe only have the cushion version of this cut and they all have their own branded name. The AVC and AVRs are specific to GOG. So, if your heart is set on a round then you may be out of luck with a new cut? But, truly I can't say that for sure. If I was as brave and good at it as DreamerD and Gypsy I would go on the ebay hunt for a stone for you, but that's just a scary world for me based on my knowledge. I'd bet that if you paged them and asked for their help specifically they would be more that happy to help you. They have been around for a long time and really know their stuff, as do many others here.

I'm going to have to ditto this. We have a couple serious ebay fiends and I've got to say, Gypsy is amazing! I have seen her find some seriously wonderful things. DreamerD I have also seen find some great deals on ebay.

 

[marymm]

OP - for what it is worth, I've seen that L-VS1 stone in person - I went and looked at it twice - my funds went in a different direction but if I could afford it, I'd buy it now - I keep it bookmarked and visit it every so often - it is a creamy vanilla color, with a pretty and symmetrical facet pattern and lovely proportions - very clean.

eta - there's a video on this - you should be able to find it via google I think

 

[Christina...]

What is the ct wieght on the L VS1? can you post a link?

 

[bunnycat]

What is the ct wieght on the L VS1? can you post a link?

yes please- do you have a link for it?

Christina- that is certainly an option of getting a ring with a nice stone and taking it out to use and that one seems nice from the photo. Size is just about right too. I guess I can check on their return policy.

Yes, there are some size constraints on the stock head. There's a charge (though not a huge one) for changing it. But I also am figuring on the yellow gold I'll be going with not contributing to the diamonds apparent size so don't really want to dip below 6mm if possible (part of the allure of this ring for me is the contrast between the head and the very delicate band) and I will almost bet finding something larger than 6.5 will be over budget, though I certainly don't mind paying the extra charge if they need to size up if we did find something nice.

Anyone else have any opinions on the stone in the ring Christina so kindly posted?

The other good news is I think there is one store in town that I remember seeing some loose OEC, so I may run down tomorrow and take a look and will photograph any likely contenders.

 

[bunnycat]

OP - for what it is worth, I've seen that L-VS1 stone in person - I went and looked at it twice - my funds went in a different direction but if I could afford it, I'd buy it now - I keep it bookmarked and visit it every so often - it is a creamy vanilla color, with a pretty and symmetrical facet pattern and lovely proportions - very clean.

eta - there's a video on this - you should be able to find it via google I think

thanks for that. I think I can probably find it. That one is unfortunately a little small diameter-wise (I think ct weight was in the .8 range), but it's good to know that it also looked good in person and makes me feel a little better about the things I see. I think it is a lovely looking stone from the picture.

The one above it is closer to the size I need, but I can't tell if the slightly "flat" look it has is from the photo angle, or the stone itself.

I'm kind of starting to think of these a little like colored stones. I'm not worrying too much about carat weight; they swing all over the place for size. I've found a .79 that was the right size, most of the ones the right size are in the .85-.98 range and a couple over 1.0.

 

[athenaworth]

You should go over to the preloved jewels section. There may be so e very good OEC's over there, or you could do a WTB thread.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

Do you want me to post some suggestions? Tell me budget and desired specs.

 

[bunnycat]

Do you want me to post some suggestions? Tell me budget and desired specs.

I'd love some suggestions from you and would be very thankful!

Right now, budget is around $3K for the stone. We know we want to have handmade wedding bands so we already have some of he budget allocated to that. The setting I posted for the ering is 8 pronged, and is a sort of petal cup shape, so the diamond will be fairly surrounded on all sides. The specs on the stock head are for a 6-6.5mm stone and I feel like if I go below 6mm on the actual dimensions, some of the charm may be lost of the contrast between stone and band. It's also going to be yellow gold, and I don't know how that will affect the visuals either.

I do have this diamond on hold at GOG. It's so close! .81 M VS2 AVR





More later- have to run out now....

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

First offf, you save money buying on ebay. BUT there are caveats. You must accept the possibility of buying and returning a few diamonds before you find "the one". Two, you cannot trust pictures or what the vendors say about the stones, so there is mystery involved in buying (see again point 1). Three, there is the chance of having to make a dispute with ebay if you don't get what you want and the seller is a jerk. It is much more complicated than simply ordering that lovely AVR You don't get an upgrade policy. And with real antiques the cuts are quirky and won't be perfect. So it is not for everyone. That AVR will be beautiful, will have no issues of leakage or obtruction that even the best antique have to some degree, and it is a sure thing! So consider it strongly!

Also consider calling OWD for some more options. They also are much safer than ebay.

That said, I like this one. It looks lovely. I believe Gypsy also loves the look of this stone. It sold about 10 days ago for $2700. I would ask the vendor why it was returned, or if the buyer just did not pay (my guess). This setting is lovely too, IMO, and could be used or sold.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130642945015

**Note: I am not responsible for any negative outcomes if you buy this stone Buyer beware, proceed with all appropriate caution.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

This actually may work nicely for you, it's the perfect size and looks like a beauty. You could have the stone removed from the setting and have it set in the one you've chosen....

http://www.langantiques.com/products/item/10-1-4566

It looks like a nice transitional, notice the larger table and shallower crown, the super small culet? They call it a "european cut" which basically means a later example of these old cuts, maybe cut in the 20s or 30s or later. If you want a stone like that, it is a good option and Lang's are very reliable by all accounts. It is a very different look optically than an OEC.

 

[bunnycat]

First offf, you save money buying on ebay. BUT there are caveats. You must accept the possibility of buying and returning a few diamonds before you find "the one". Two, you cannot trust pictures or what the vendors say about the stones, so there is mystery involved in buying (see again point 1). Three, there is the chance of having to make a dispute with ebay if you don't get what you want and the seller is a jerk. It is much more complicated than simply ordering that lovely AVR You don't get an upgrade policy. And with real antiques the cuts are quirky and won't be perfect. So it is not for everyone. That AVR will be beautiful, will have no issues of leakage or obtruction that even the best antique have to some degree, and it is a sure thing! So consider it strongly!

Also consider calling OWD for some more options. They also are much safer than ebay.

That said, I like this one. It looks lovely. I believe Gypsy also loves the look of this stone. It sold about 10 days ago for $2700. I would ask the vendor why it was returned, or if the buyer just did not pay (my guess). This setting is lovely too, IMO, and could be used or sold.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130642945015

**Note: I am not responsible for any negative outcomes if you buy this stone Buyer beware, proceed with all appropriate caution.

Hmmm- that's intruiguing. They are listed in Austin, and that is where I live. I wonder what the possibilities of a viewing would be?
It does look quite pretty and does have a bit of a different look than the Lang's stone. I know bf will be dubious of anything with no certificates, and I would also need to find out what steps I ought to take if I should get a ring to remove the stone (but it sure is a pretty setting too!) regarding appraisals and so forth, mostly for quality and stability of the stone.

Again- I want to thank all of you for your help on this (slightly obsessive) diamond quest.

I did go to the store that had some loose diamonds, and they did have an OMC and 2 OECs, but the guy was quite, um, shall we say, not appreciative of my questions and when I asked if I could photograph it, well, he was positively unfriendly from that point on. Not a pleasant experience.

I don't know why I almost always get the feel when I go in to look at diamonds, that they just want you to pick one and then pay and go away. Questions don't seem to be received well.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

Old cuts on ebay don't have lab reports as a general rule. It sounds like you should stick to retail avenues

 

[bunnycat]

Old cuts on ebay don't have lab reports as a general rule. It sounds like you should stick to retail avenues

yeah- you're probably right. If it weren't for an ering, it'd be a better consideration and we just don't know enough not to potentially screw up. But we're going to get the AVR in to look at. It looks like it will be lovely. I'm sure we'll get a couple of others to look at too, probably a RBC and maybe a OEC.

thanks again!

Hopefully I can get my mind off this by tomorrow and get some work done!

 

[Christina...]

Old cuts on ebay don't have lab reports as a general rule. It sounds like you should stick to retail avenues

yeah- you're probably right. If it weren't for an ering, it'd be a better consideration and we just don't know enough not to potentially screw up. But we're going to get the AVR in to look at. It looks like it will be lovely. I'm sure we'll get a couple of others to look at too, probably a RBC and maybe a OEC.

thanks again!

Hopefully I can get my mind off this by tomorrow and get some work done!

Good luck with that! I bet your mind won't be off it until it's on your ring finger, and then you won't get any work done because you'll be drooling over it all day.

I agree with Dreamer and you said it as well, I think that for this particular purchase you may be MUCH happier going the retail route. Its such a special purchase that you don't want someone to go mucking it up on you.

Great choice from GOG, they have a fantastic reputation and all the AVRs that I"ve seen have been stunning, and it takes a lot of the guess work out of trying to purchase a great OEC....however IMO they still don't have that OEC charm. But I also prefer the checkerboard faceting to a floral or snowflake pattern, but thats just a matter of preferance.

OH.... This response is typical for some BMs unfortunately. I don't think that they like to see a well informed consumer come in and start asking intelligent questions that are difficult for them to answer. I've been apalled at the lack of knowledge from some of the sales people that I have come across. I've left more than a couple stores rolling my eyes at some of the information that they have tried to pass off on me. OTOH I've met some wonderful knoweledgable people as well that have a lot of passion for what they do and would be happy to talk cut color and clarity with you all day long. So, they are out there, but sometimes it feels like they are as hard to find as the perfect diamond is. If you ask a salesperson a question and they can't answer it to your satisfaction, or referr you to someone that can, it's time to walk and find another retailer.