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New Diamond 'upgrade' what makes it really shine?

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
47
Hello everyone! So, I've done this once before, and have to do it again only better. I bought a stone a while back in Atlanta. It was a 1.26 VS1 E color diamond. I believe it was around 8K. At the time, I didnt know much and got an EGL stone, it looked good in person. They no longer sell EGL stones, but they did offer me an upgrade policy. So, I can get the full price i paid for my diamond back if I get a new one from them.

Obviously, it will make sense to buy from this same place. I am looking to get something that is really nice. I think the 1.25 carat area is fine, but I am looking for a stone that really shines. Currently, I am putting clarity at the top, and I am wondering if this is necessary. I am looking at IF diamonds, E color, Excellent to ideal cut. Price around 13k.

I know there is more to diamonds than simply buying one that all the specs look good. Will the shape affect the brilliance? Is there anything I should look for in particular? Currently looking at one like this:

1.21 Carat Round Brilliant GIA
Color: E Clarity: IF Price: $13,018
Bank Wire Price:$12,627
Item#: 5FF88689
Certificate: GIA Shape: Round Brilliant
Carat: 1.21
Cut: Ideal
Color: E
Clairty: IF
Measurements: 6.88-6.88x4.19 Depth: 60.6
Table: 60
Polish: Very Good
Symmetry: Very Good
Fluorescence: None
 

bunnycat

Ideal_Rock
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Jan 12, 2012
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2,671
You'll probably want to post a link to the Gia report at a minimum. Most people here are going to tell you that IF is overkill on clarity as it is how well cut a stone is that mainly drives light performance as opposed to color and clarity. That's why the cert info helps, so people can see the cut specs. Idealscope images or aset images are very helpful and you can run the numbers from the cert through the Holloway cut advisor tool to help get you started on weeding out potential duds....

Right now I can see it is a 60/60 stone (depth and table percent) which gives a certain look. You also need crown angle, pavilion angle to run the HCA tool.
 

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
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Jan 6, 2017
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47
Wow, I just noticed that the report was issued in 2007

This is the report number

15795977

I looked up that ideal scope online and it says only get it if the price is really good. and oh wow, that same diamond is listed on WhitFlash as well!!! I guess they don't even own the diamond??


one of there more expensive stones shows a date of december 2016 and scores Very Good on that scale. I imagine that first one must not be great if it's been on the shelves for almost 10 years.
 

bunnycat

Ideal_Rock
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cokewithvanilla|1483744219|4113103 said:
Wow, I just noticed that the report was issued in 2007

This is the report number

15795977

I looked up that ideal scope online and it says only get it if the price is really good. and oh wow, that same diamond is listed on WhitFlash as well!!! I guess they don't even own the diamond??


one of there more expensive stones shows a date of december 2016 and scores Very Good on that scale. I imagine that first one must not be great if it's been on the shelves for almost 10 years.

Can you post a link? I suspect it is not an in house stone but virtual inventory. I do not think whitflash would cut a diamond in those specs under their brand.

These are the kind of specs WF would be cutting their branded stones

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3586203.htm

In your search I would worry less about date of report and spend more time combing through the specs. It's a long process (that gets done for you with specialty vendors like Whiteflash and Brian Gavin) but your efforts should be repaid in a better stone. If you get to call finalist stones in to your vendor, maybe purchase a cheap idealscope to check light return. People here and the HCA tool can help you vet possibilities to narrow it down.
 

bunnycat

Ideal_Rock
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cokewithvanilla|1483745737|4113114 said:
this is the link on WF

http://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3659524.htm


I am shopping at solomanbrothers.com as i will get 8k off my purchase, which will make up any difference in price from another site.


Every stone i put in comes back with issues. There was only one that came back good and I cant find it anymore lol. Some of them said something like DO NOT BUY

Rock and hard place.

Let me try a couple. Hopefully some of the more diamond whizzes will chime in. This has slight Fluor, which may boost face up color plus a basic aset image on the cert. just click on cert in the listing. And trust me, if you had an ego stone before that said e, it likely was lower.

https://www.solomonbrothers.com/product/diamond/?dmd_sku=993YYYH5
 

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
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Jan 6, 2017
Messages
47
Wow, I color? i would never have through to go that far

seems like ideal specs are

Depth:60
Table:57
Crown:34
Pavilion:40.5

cant seem to get any better results from the online thing. Yours came in with excellent results. Are AGS stones better?


edit: i think i just answered my own question, AGS stone just looked at came up as nasty lol
 

bunnycat

Ideal_Rock
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The ags stone has a more expensive report (with the light return performance).usually that gets done if you expect it to be worth it...

The last stone has potential. I don't know how color sensitive you are. Color and clarity, remember, are not the main drivers of light return...you will need to go see the stone to decide. Or look at GIA g stones so you are comparing things correctly. Does you no good to compare Gia g to egl g.
 

bunnycat

Ideal_Rock
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cokewithvanilla|1483746812|4113123 said:
Wow, I color? i would never have through to go that far

seems like ideal specs are

Depth:60
Table:57
Crown:34
Pavilion:40.5

cant seem to get any better results from the online thing. Yours came in with excellent results. Are AGS stones better?


edit: i think i just answered my own question, AGS stone just looked at came up as nasty lol

Depth 60-62 generally is what you want. It's all a range. Table like 55-57 or 58 if I remember correctly. Crown 34-35. Pavilion I can't recall the range without looking.

Also I narrowed the search waaaaaay down. E-h, vs2-vvs1, 1.7-2.0 carat. Ideal cut stones only.
 

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
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Messages
47
bastetcat|1483748048|4113133 said:
Depth 60-62 generally is what you want. It's all a range. Table like 55-57 or 58 if I remember correctly. Crown 34-35. Pavilion I can't recall the range without looking.

Also I narrowed the search waaaaaay down. E-h, vs2-vvs1, 1.7-2.0 carat. Ideal cut stones only.


Do you think i am looking at stones too small? Should I lower my color/clarity standards for a larger stone? Ideally, I will have to have they get 3-5 stones for me to look at. It doesnt help that i now live in ohio and they are in georgia
 

bunnycat

Ideal_Rock
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cokewithvanilla|1483748838|4113137 said:
bastetcat|1483748048|4113133 said:
Depth 60-62 generally is what you want. It's all a range. Table like 55-57 or 58 if I remember correctly. Crown 34-35. Pavilion I can't recall the range without looking.

Also I narrowed the search waaaaaay down. E-h, vs2-vvs1, 1.7-2.0 carat. Ideal cut stones only.


Do you think i am looking at stones too small? Should I lower my color/clarity standards for a larger stone? Ideally, I will have to have they get 3-5 stones for me to look at. It doesnt help that i now live in ohio and they are in georgia


Those are the questions we all ponder......Only you can answer that and I've been there, done that so I know how you feel. If you can, you might go to a jewelry store and check out GIA/AGS graded stones for consistency, and see what color/clarity you can tolerate. Get the stones away from the bright flashy jewelry store lights over to a window if you can, or under the table. The flashy light make everything sparkle and don't help your search. You can also google search comparison videos on color, cut and so forth to help you out a little. It's a lot of work, but it's worth it. But I'm guessing the advice you'll generally get here on a diamond forum is go as big as you can, and decide what you are willing to sacrifice if you want to go bigger. Color??? Clarity??? Not cut....

I just recently turned in my old super ideal cut I with fluor to trade up to a new stone and had to answer the same question for myself. I love stones with fluor, so I am taking a chance on a much larger stone that is a K with fluorescence here soon. I figure since the stone in my avatar is an very nicely cut Old European uncerted M/N range stone and I have lived with that one for years now maybe I can do K.....I sure hope so, because there's no going back now!

If you didn't have to go with this jeweler, I'd just point you to a place that has done all the work so you don't have to think about it if you don't want to, just know that the work has been done. But that's not where you are and so some work has to be done. If I recall, Soloman brothers can probably do an idealscope image of your finalists (but you might ask to be sure). Just try to weed out stuff before you ask for the finalists here....
 

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
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Messages
47
I really dont think i want to go as low as VS2. I like that it has all the images. Perhaps if I request them on others, they will have them.

The good thing is, I am not in a hurry, so I can take my time.

How did you find that one with the additional images? just kept looking or is there a search for that?
 

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
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58,342
I'd never even consider an IF stone because there are more important things that CAN be seen that are more important. CUT is number one. I'll post the numbers below to look for. Color is second, but since you are looking at E-F color, you are fine on that. Clarity, VS1 is ideal to me for someone who wants a stone that is clean with a 10x loupe. I don't care to pay for higher than that because you can't see the difference.

These are measurements to help you stay in ideal cut territory with a GIA excellent cut stone. (Choose excellent cut, polish, and symmetry.)

table: 54-58

depth: 60-62.3

crown angle: 34-35.0 (up to 35.5 crown angle can sometimes work with a 40.6 pav angle)

pavilion angle: 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41.0 if the crown angle is close to 34)
 

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
47
Thanks for the reply. I will definitely start my search with Cut first, followed by color. That one stone that was cut almost perfect (according to that cut thing), was IF and G in color... only $10000 as well. I think that one will be on my list.

I will start looking in the D-F range... I really find it hard to tell the difference between D and F though

I received a reply from the store, and they are telling me that the stone has to be in their inventory for me to use the upgrade policy on it. That's gonna limit my options greatly, id imagine.

Edit: you mentioned that you cannot see the difference on VS1 or better stones. How can inclusions not affect light in some manner? even if not clearly seen, they have to affect reflection and so on. On the VS1 stone that I have, I swear if you look at it right, you can see something amiss. Its clear and sparkly and all that, but sometimes, not all the time, I can see something... dunno what.
 

gm89uk

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
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It is almost certainly not an inclusion you are seeing, most likely cut related, lack of symmetry etc. I will add to DS that most VS2s are also eye clean and not perceivable to the naked eye, as well as many SI1s. You need to visit a reputable vendor that deals with H&A stones and do a blind test comparing various clarities. Not all clarities are equal, vs2 =/= vs2. Do more research, shop smart and save money, or reprioritise your budget towards cut and carat (while keeping colour as low as possible as you're comfortable with, which sounds possibly an F).

Thankfully you have time, but don't base your next purchase on a hunch that you may have seen something in one vs1 stone.
 

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
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Messages
47
Interestingly enough, when I told the salesperson that I was only looking to spend 10-12k TOTAL (including the upgrade diamond), the emails stopped. He asked me if I meant to add 12K... I really didn't think for a 1.25ct diamond 20k was reasonable, and i told him so.

We shall see how this goes.

I should be able to get something nice for 10-12, correct?
 

bmfang

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
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1,852
cokewithvanilla|1484104391|4114242 said:
Interestingly enough, when I told the salesperson that I was only looking to spend 10-12k TOTAL (including the upgrade diamond), the emails stopped. He asked me if I meant to add 12K... I really didn't think for a 1.25ct diamond 20k was reasonable, and i told him so.

We shall see how this goes.

I should be able to get something nice for 10-12, correct?

There are plenty of beautiful stones at BGD, James Allen and Whiteflash for 10-12@. Most of them should be around the 1.25ct mark or higher.
 

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
Joined
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Messages
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bmfang|1484107347|4114258 said:
There are plenty of beautiful stones at BGD, James Allen and Whiteflash for 10-12@. Most of them should be around the 1.25ct mark or higher.


Yes, but at any of those place 10-12 grand will be 10-12 grand. At the particular place, 10-12 will be 2-4, since I will get 8k back on my upgrade.

So, I just got them on the phone and they said the closest thing they have in the store (which is a requirement for upgrade) is a 1.26Ct VS2 Very good cut in F color. The HCA thing simply rejects the stone as crap... and its 12000, which is more than the nearly perfect stone they have online (1.26, IF, G, HCA gives almost perfect cut). Funny thing about that is, i paid much less for basically the same stone. And if you price a similar stone online (at their website), it's about $2600 dollars cheaper. I am starting to think they are a bit shady.



This is the stone they were talking about

https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=6107637724
 

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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instead of trying to work with these people, would it be easier to just sell the set I have? I paid around 2200 for the setting/band and 7 something for the diamond. I could post specifics later when i find the certificates. Do these things even hold 50% of their value? I made the mistake of getting an EGL stone, so perhaps I am screwed anyway. If i compensate for the EGL rating (removing 1 grade and 2 color levels), stones appear to be priced around the 7-8k range.
 

bunnycat

Ideal_Rock
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cokewithvanilla|1484599535|4115788 said:
instead of trying to work with these people, would it be easier to just sell the set I have? I paid around 2200 for the setting/band and 7 something for the diamond. I could post specifics later when i find the certificates. Do these things even hold 50% of their value? I made the mistake of getting an EGL stone, so perhaps I am screwed anyway. If i compensate for the EGL rating (removing 1 grade and 2 color levels), stones appear to be priced around the 7-8k range.

It couldn't hurt to try selling it on your own. If you do, I suggest looking through the how to photograph your diamond thread. That will really help. Don't use flash. Use bright, natural, diffused light and simple neutral backdrop. Flowers help...

If that's a no go, maybe consignment?

Have you gone to the top of the food chain there to find out if they can get a nicer cut stone in in recommended specs in store?

I also recommend highly going to somewhere that has Gia or ags graded stones to assess your actual color clarity tolerance for correctly graded and nicely cut stones. It may be lower than you think. For instance, the stone in my avatar is a K (super ideal branded cut)
 

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
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I will go out and check some stones if i can. Mostly there are just Jared type big box stores around here. I will try to see if there is anyone else over there i can talk to. So far, they are just making me feel like they are shady. The prices they are quoting me are outrageous.

The guy finally emailed me back saying that he knows of a 1.4 if/f stone that's cut very nice for 18500... and an si1/f with a good cut for 12500... I mean they literally have a 1.26/g/if/ideal cut scoring .5 on HCA in their virtual inventory for 10700! Why on earth would I pay 8000 dollars for .1mm and 1 color grade, assuming it will be anything as nice a cut as the 1.26
 

bunnycat

Ideal_Rock
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cokewithvanilla|1484614680|4115845 said:
I will go out and check some stones if i can. Mostly there are just Jared type big box stores around here. I will try to see if there is anyone else over there i can talk to. So far, they are just making me feel like they are shady. The prices they are quoting me are outrageous.

The guy finally emailed me back saying that he knows of a 1.4 if/f stone that's cut very nice for 18500... and an si1/f with a good cut for 12500... I mean they literally have a 1.26/g/if/ideal cut scoring .5 on HCA in their virtual inventory for 10700! Why on earth would I pay 8000 dollars for .1mm and 1 color grade, assuming it will be anything as nice a cut as the 1.26

Surely they get in more stones? If it were me, I'd be asking what the process was. I mean, if you have a virtual inventory site....surely that means if someone buys one you can call it in?

The reason I am suggesting go really really look at diamonds somewhere for color and clarity and I'm going to say an independent place may serve you better than a chain though jaredsmay have Gia stones, I don't know...is that maybe they have something in their store better cut but lower color and you wouldn't want to miss that if you had an option for something like a decent cut h or I. It will be easier for you to find Gia stones to view in stores, I think, because they are the biggest.

I'd also review them. I know I wouldn't steer anyone towards them after this mess.
 

WinkHPD

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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bunnycat|1484615406|4115851 said:
go really really look at diamonds somewhere for color and clarity

This is fantastic advice. I strongly encourage you to do just that!

Find a local seller carrying a known line of well cut diamonds, graded by GIA or AGSL. Examine these in the VS to SI grades, as well as near colorless colors. Why? Because it is the cut quality that drives the beauty and performance of the diamond, not color or clarity. Precise angles and fine tuning the geometry of a diamond are how vivid brightness, intense bursts of fire and active sparkle are created, even when the diamond is far away from the intense showroom lights that make even dull diamonds look pretty good.

Take a poorly cut D-Flawless diamond out of those klieg lights, and it too will look dull and lifeless.

Worst case, you sill look at those "lesser" color and clarity diamonds and know that you can not make them mind clean, no matter how beautiful they are. Best case, you may realize you could have a bigger and better looking diamond for less money, all because of the incredible cutting.

Regardless, it will be a fun excursion, an adventure even, and your knowledge of diamonds will have grown as well as your knowledge of what you like.

Wink
 

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
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Messages
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I am really going to try to find time to look. I havent looked at diamonds in years.

After some more back and forth, they say that they have a stone that they think will be perfect. HCA under 1, 1.36/if/g. He has not told me the price, but says he is negotiating for it as it is not his stone. They will be unable to give me full value on my stone. He says I will have to send it to them and they will pay a fair price for it. He tells me the 1.26 stone i was looking at has been sold, even though its still on their online inventory.

If I had my guess, it is probably this stone:

https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=2247179306


Comes in at .7 on the hca instead of the .5 i was looking at. All other specs the same except .1ct larger, 1.5k more in price... not too bad. Everything comes up as Excellent except Spread at very good.

He says that if i choose to proceed, he will bring the stone in and take images, etc. At the price point of 12k, what do you think of this stone? Also, I am sure that if I like the stone, they will want me to proceed immediately, meaning they will not have my stone in hand. If this is the case, and I have already made the purchase, they will have one up on me with negotiation. They say they make very little money on their diamonds... who knows how true that is.
 

bunnycat

Ideal_Rock
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Messages
2,671
cokewithvanilla|1484706629|4116131 said:
I am really going to try to find time to look. I havent looked at diamonds in years.

After some more back and forth, they say that they have a stone that they think will be perfect. HCA under 1, 1.36/if/g. He has not told me the price, but says he is negotiating for it as it is not his stone. They will be unable to give me full value on my stone. He says I will have to send it to them and they will pay a fair price for it. He tells me the 1.26 stone i was looking at has been sold, even though its still on their online inventory.

If I had my guess, it is probably this stone:

https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=2247179306


Comes in at .7 on the hca instead of the .5 i was looking at. All other specs the same except .1ct larger, 1.5k more in price... not too bad. Everything comes up as Excellent except Spread at very good.

He says that if i choose to proceed, he will bring the stone in and take images, etc. At the price point of 12k, what do you think of this stone? Also, I am sure that if I like the stone, they will want me to proceed immediately, meaning they will not have my stone in hand. If this is the case, and I have already made the purchase, they will have one up on me with negotiation. They say they make very little money on their diamonds... who knows how true that is.

I wish I knew what to say. What is the return policy if you buy the new one and don't like what they offer you on your stone? Because this is basically a new purchase at this point and if you are going to have to pay full whack, I wouldn't go there, I'd go elsewhere and I'd want a serious return policy too if you do decide to try buying the new stone on the hope they give you enough for the old one. Or, why not wait until something that IS theirs comes in so you have full value. It sounds like they are just trying to get out of the upgrade policy they had to me, honestly....

So what happens if say this stone is 12K (guessing) and they only offer you 4K for your stone? (they didn't say fair price to whom....) You still have to come up with 8K then. If you are having to outlay that kind of cash, would it be better to start again from scratch?

Do you have any paperwork from the time of the original purchase that outlines the upgrade policy?

Just a note though- .7 is not worse than .5 on the HCA. Anything under a score of 2 is all the same.
 

cokewithvanilla

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I did not know that thing about the two. thought the closer to 0, the better. Yes, it seems to me that they are trying to get out of the upgrade. But when I was talking to him, he said there is more 'padding' in the stones they own... meaning to say they overcharge. so, if this stone is online price, and a good price, then whats the difference in vendors? If I could sell my stone outright and get the same price as he would give, i would do that instead.

I dont know, either way, looking for a diamond is difficult. I remember last time, it seems like everyone is just trying to screw you
 

cokewithvanilla

Rough_Rock
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I did not know that thing about the two. thought the closer to 0, the better. Yes, it seems to me that they are trying to get out of the upgrade. But when I was talking to him, he said there is more 'padding' in the stones they own... meaning to say they overcharge. so, if this stone is online price, and a good price, then whats the difference in vendors? If I could sell my stone outright and get the same price as he would give, i would do that instead.

I dont know, either way, looking for a diamond is difficult. I remember last time, it seems like everyone is just trying to screw you
 

ringo865

Ideal_Rock
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So, really, hurry up and buy this stone and then later, after you're locked in, they will tell you how much your trade in is worth? NO.

Also IF clarity will be more $ than VS. You can get more size, it is an "upgrade" after all, by lowering the clarity. GIA VS will most usually be eye-clean. I say sell your stone outright and buy online. Pricescopers can help you find a beautiful diamond without all the high pressure BS.
 
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