ID Jewelry in NYC, while im in LA
- Thread starter eugchen
- Start date
eugchen|1484960700|4117238 said:
Eugchen, While Kenny is blunt he has fairly concisely expressed his point several times. Your response shows that while you say you take on many points, your justification shows really you haven't.. Whether you think highly of Kenny's maturity, the points are extremely valid.
Regarding your points regarding the justification of why you are not being ripped off:
Why not just look at the price of J I1 diamonds GIA and see how much they are compared to what you have.
Let me put this way. Always deal knowing that the merchant knows more about the product than you. IDJ deal with lots of high quality GIA/AGI diamonds with idealcut. Before show casing the diamonds, the seller analysis and asks themselves, how can I make the most money from this? (Hypothetica,l not just for your diamond)
1) will the diamond not acquire excellent cut with GIA/AGS but will with another.
2) will the almost certain I1 diamond clarity with GIA put more people off than an SI1 even from a less reputable appraiser/certification. I1 is a much much cheaper price bracket, best avoid that risk
3) I'll certify it from GIA without inscription and see what I get and then decide.
These diamond EXPERTS that routinely deal with GIA AGS stones, suddenly don't want to certify the stones with GIA/AGS. So I ask you again, what is the reason that they don't? Because it's not economically viable. They may already be GIA graded but would have to be priced cheaper. You are NOT getting a good deal because of convenience of accepting a stone that a vendor can't be bothered to recertify, you are getting an AGI stone because someone much more expert than you in diamonds thought they could earn more than way.
This is not a cracking deal in a pawn shop, this is 20k+ purchase. Don't cut corners, because this is not your field and someone with far more knowledge in diamonds than you (the dealer) has purposefully not accepted your request to recertify.
Things are different with other labs like IGI Mumbai where they can be very popular in other parts of the world. But in your case, Reread the previous posts carefully and you can see how your points of justification to go ahead are completely contradictory to stating 'yes I agree with you'. I certainly don't mind what you buy, neither does Kenny, or anyone else, your money your business after all, but it's a shame not to try explain things fully.
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gm89uk|1484963353|4117273 said:
She?
Oh my.
I had to check.
I just looked down my pants.
Nope, it's still there.
I gave it a workout ... Nope, it still works.
I AM gay but last I checked they still call us He.
Did Trump just change that?
No insult calling me a woman, since men and women are equal.
heididdl|1484964402|4117292 said:
While I see your point isn't directed at me, if the true characteristics of these diamonds were close to what is stated, the vendor would pay a few hundred bucks to certify with GIA and sell at 35k. It is reasonable to find gia I,Si2 Very good cut to excellent cut around the 11k mark (per diamond).
I have lots of respect for IDJ and would have no problem buying a properly certified stone from them, but I'd rather be more informed by buying diamonds just as big for the same price but knowing exactly what I'm getting
"But there has to be a point when you take a step back and allow something to decide to see diamonds as a sparkle in an ear as opposed to buying something that in your opinion isn't good enough because it isn't GIA certified."
you nailed it on the head for me...that is my dilemma. to some, GIA is a must, to others it is not. nothing wrong with either. if my only criteria was to buy some large studs that sparkle on my wifes ear, then maybe i dont need GIA (if i could see them in person first). that is not my only criteria, just saying.
gm89uk---"Don't cut corners, because this is not your field and someone with far more knowledge in diamonds than you (the dealer) has purposefully not accepted your request to recertify."
i was only asking for recert for the diamonds on GIA because members on the post had asked me to request one saying it was only $100. im not upset they rejected the request, just reporting back.
what does not cut corners mean? not getting a GIA diamond? of course a diamond dealer has much more knowledge than me on diamonds. doesnt mean they are all mother theresas in their sales practices. of course they are trying to maximize profits and unload products. IDJ may be an incredible stand up dealer, that is the impression i have gathered, thats what makes my choice so confusing, because they have a great reputation but have been pushing this AGI studs on me. they are the experts but the people on PS are obviously extremely educated consumers in todays world.
as stated before, the choice is spending 21,500 on these AGI stones or 30-35K on GIA stones. the difference is enormous. you cannot say a 21,500 buyer is "Anyone who does not want to be ripped off" per Kenny, vs a 30-35K GIA stone buyer is a smart lad.
but in conclusion after all consideration, i have decided NOT to purchase these AGI stones and continue looking for some GIA stones.
you nailed it on the head for me...that is my dilemma. to some, GIA is a must, to others it is not. nothing wrong with either. if my only criteria was to buy some large studs that sparkle on my wifes ear, then maybe i dont need GIA (if i could see them in person first). that is not my only criteria, just saying.
gm89uk---"Don't cut corners, because this is not your field and someone with far more knowledge in diamonds than you (the dealer) has purposefully not accepted your request to recertify."
i was only asking for recert for the diamonds on GIA because members on the post had asked me to request one saying it was only $100. im not upset they rejected the request, just reporting back.
what does not cut corners mean? not getting a GIA diamond? of course a diamond dealer has much more knowledge than me on diamonds. doesnt mean they are all mother theresas in their sales practices. of course they are trying to maximize profits and unload products. IDJ may be an incredible stand up dealer, that is the impression i have gathered, thats what makes my choice so confusing, because they have a great reputation but have been pushing this AGI studs on me. they are the experts but the people on PS are obviously extremely educated consumers in todays world.
as stated before, the choice is spending 21,500 on these AGI stones or 30-35K on GIA stones. the difference is enormous. you cannot say a 21,500 buyer is "Anyone who does not want to be ripped off" per Kenny, vs a 30-35K GIA stone buyer is a smart lad.
but in conclusion after all consideration, i have decided NOT to purchase these AGI stones and continue looking for some GIA stones.
kenny|1484966063|4117305 said:
overgraded? maybe, but im compensating already for the overgrading...overpriced? how are you justifying that? one is 21.5, one is 30-35K.
newsflash, GIA reports are an OPINION, not Gods words. yes, they are the most reputable on the market, but still an opinion. they tend to be the strictest, so everyone holds them as the "standard".
but as stated before, i have decided to continue looking.
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Hi eugchen 
How about this proposal:
why don't you treat the AGI pair as the "back-up plan" and also have IDJ search for a pair of diamonds with a low HCA (under 2), GIA xxx that fits in the same budget, and ask them to send you one stud from each pair to compare with your own eyes. Then you can keep the one you like and send back the other diamomd in exchange for the match.
How about this proposal:
why don't you treat the AGI pair as the "back-up plan" and also have IDJ search for a pair of diamonds with a low HCA (under 2), GIA xxx that fits in the same budget, and ask them to send you one stud from each pair to compare with your own eyes. Then you can keep the one you like and send back the other diamomd in exchange for the match.
PintoBean|1484967679|4117314 said:Hi eugchen
How about this proposal:
why don't you treat the AGI pair as the "back-up plan" and also have IDJ search for a pair of diamonds with a low HCA (under 2), GIA xxx that fits in the same budget, and ask them to send you one stud from each pair to compare with your own eyes. Then you can keep the one you like and send back the other diamomd in exchange for the match.
not a bad idea...
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eugchen|1484966382|4117310 said:
What if (with accurate GIA grading) that $21.5K dropped to $15K, $10K or even only $5K?
What if they are synthetic diamonds, manufactured in a lab instead of being mined from the earth?
What if it is a clarity-enhanced diamond?
What if it's treated to improve the color?
Before parting with over twenty thousand dollars don't you want to be as sure as possible?
... no way to know without competent grading from GIA or AGS.
A reputable lab report is the ONLY way to be sure of what you're buying.
Don't be gullible.
Protect yourself.
eugchen|1484966084|4117306 said:
I was not slating your knowledge or IDJs customer service. But in this instance I would very strongly ask IDJ why will you not certify via GIA. It's not difficult to do so for them. It may be some logistical nightmare for whatever reason but I, as a buyer would need a very reasonable explanation for why they refuse to send to GIA other wise alarm bells would go off in my head. By cutting corners I mean for one to buy what they think is a great deal through a vendor that will not recertify diamonds with seemingly no explanation. I can only then conclude that the diamonds in question are less likely to sell / less value if they held reputable certification. My assumptions may be wrong, but with a purchase this big I would have to think worst case scenario.
Yes IDJ have raving reviews and they are known to be upfront and honest providing reflector images and high service at excellent value.
Personally what I would do is simply talk to them about the concerns highlighted here and see what they say, you never know unless you ask and I'm sure they'd be happy to guide you appropriately. IDJ simply may not be aware of all this discussion and all it needs is a simple conversation
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Agree completely. Diamond buyers have different wants and purposes. IDJ is serving a wide array of clients.gm89uk|1484995543|4117389 said:
In this case the only obstacle to moving forward are some reasonable gemological questions. So get them answered. AGI graded the diamonds. No problem, but for a purchase of $20K it's practical to have your own expert examine them too.
I'll use Neil Beaty as an example, since he's a long-time contributor here, and is often used in 3rd party verification in situations like this. He's also a judicial expert in court cases involving diamonds and gemstones and one of fewer than 20 ICGAs in the world. In short, a top authority: http://americangemregistry.com/
See if IDJ will send the diamonds to Neil. Hire him for a pre-purchase consultation ($95). As your authority he'll report to you all gemological details, including how he believes GIA would grade color, clarity and cut. There will be a lot of supplemental info the lab doesn't normally provide, too. If agreeable to IDJ you'll likely need to split or cover shipping costs, another $60 each way.
Result: For an investment of less than 1% of the potential-purchase all doubt is removed. You go forward and make a great deal with confidence, negotiate a bit more or look at something else. Whatever happens, you're fully informed.
This is becoming more relevant for diamonds that didn't go to a major lab. Most smaller labs don't have the expensive detection capabilities to answer this decisively. I would add that part of Neil's service is screening for type IIa (potentially synthetic) which is prudent in this day and age.kenny|1484988355|4117376 said:
You can stipulate your own appraiser of course, but he may not be know to IDJ. And all of this would be subject to their policies, in any case. Hope it's helpful.
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"I talked to the owner about these diamonds, and he said as he is looking at them now, if he were to grade them as GIA criteria, they would be H-I, SI2-I1, excellent cut. he even sent me photos of them from an iphone and they look ok. not great, but ok. by the way, price on these is $21,500. "
This seems to be the heart of your question.
The seller, who you apparently count as reliable, says flat out that the grade from AGI is incorrect. That said, why are they in any way relevant? Let’s go with his grading:
1.90-2.10ct, SI2-I1, H-I, ex with GIA paperwork produces over 1600 offers in the database here ranging in price from under $9000 to over $23000 per stone. Add even the possibility of J color and the possibility of VG cut and that bottom drops to under $6k.
That’s a big range. GIA charges $99-$169 per stone to answer this question depending on the actual weight and the details of what sort of report type is ordered. This is a $20,000 variation, and it begs a question that has come up several times above: Why has this not already been done?
I'm going to guess you know or at least suspect the answer. The seller obviously does since that's who would have done it (Note: IDJ may just be a broker here and it may not be possible for them to send them in. Consignment deals are common in this industry and someone else may be making this call).
This seems to be the heart of your question.
The seller, who you apparently count as reliable, says flat out that the grade from AGI is incorrect. That said, why are they in any way relevant? Let’s go with his grading:
1.90-2.10ct, SI2-I1, H-I, ex with GIA paperwork produces over 1600 offers in the database here ranging in price from under $9000 to over $23000 per stone. Add even the possibility of J color and the possibility of VG cut and that bottom drops to under $6k.
That’s a big range. GIA charges $99-$169 per stone to answer this question depending on the actual weight and the details of what sort of report type is ordered. This is a $20,000 variation, and it begs a question that has come up several times above: Why has this not already been done?
I'm going to guess you know or at least suspect the answer. The seller obviously does since that's who would have done it (Note: IDJ may just be a broker here and it may not be possible for them to send them in. Consignment deals are common in this industry and someone else may be making this call).
to be clear, i have decided to pass on these diamonds, but i would like to address everyones questions in case this happens to anyone else in the future...
1. when i asked IDJ about paying for GIA grading myself, and that it should not be a large fee, they response was that they are selling these excellent beautiful pair of diamonds as is, take it or leave it. their specific quote was, if you want GIA grading, i can get it for you, but you will pay significantly more. he was trying to convince me that if i dont like them, i can easily send them back. im not it will be that easy.
2. Kenny "What if (with accurate GIA grading) that $21.5K dropped to $15K, $10K or even only $5K?
What if they are synthetic diamonds, manufactured in a lab instead of being mined from the earth?
What if it is a clarity-enhanced diamond?
What if it's treated to improve the color?"
i was planning on getting my hands on the diamonds and taking to a reputable grader in town to see what they thought of the diamond. if not satisfied, then i would send back. but again, ultimately decided didnt want to deal with the hassle of returning them if possible.
based on the reputation of IDJ, im pretty confident he isnt selling me "synthetic diamond". im pretty sure the clarity and color are overstated, being an SI1 and G. but even if you get GIA grading diamonds, you NEVER really know if the papers match the diamond unless you have them in your hand and know what you are looking for under a loupe.
i guess you are looking at it like the diamond could be a literal rock that is worth $500, so why take the risk and pay $21,500. i see that, but dont think thats likely of course. to me, the probable scenario is that they are really I1-I2 diamonds, I-J color under GIA ratings. if you search for 4.18 ctw in those parameters with GIA, they are still 24-28K. that was the only reason i was considering these along with IDJ great reputation.
we all know these jewelers thrive on good reputations and not effing the customer. same with rolex dealers, pateks, APs, etc.
1. when i asked IDJ about paying for GIA grading myself, and that it should not be a large fee, they response was that they are selling these excellent beautiful pair of diamonds as is, take it or leave it. their specific quote was, if you want GIA grading, i can get it for you, but you will pay significantly more. he was trying to convince me that if i dont like them, i can easily send them back. im not it will be that easy.
2. Kenny "What if (with accurate GIA grading) that $21.5K dropped to $15K, $10K or even only $5K?
What if they are synthetic diamonds, manufactured in a lab instead of being mined from the earth?
What if it is a clarity-enhanced diamond?
What if it's treated to improve the color?"
i was planning on getting my hands on the diamonds and taking to a reputable grader in town to see what they thought of the diamond. if not satisfied, then i would send back. but again, ultimately decided didnt want to deal with the hassle of returning them if possible.
based on the reputation of IDJ, im pretty confident he isnt selling me "synthetic diamond". im pretty sure the clarity and color are overstated, being an SI1 and G. but even if you get GIA grading diamonds, you NEVER really know if the papers match the diamond unless you have them in your hand and know what you are looking for under a loupe.
i guess you are looking at it like the diamond could be a literal rock that is worth $500, so why take the risk and pay $21,500. i see that, but dont think thats likely of course. to me, the probable scenario is that they are really I1-I2 diamonds, I-J color under GIA ratings. if you search for 4.18 ctw in those parameters with GIA, they are still 24-28K. that was the only reason i was considering these along with IDJ great reputation.
we all know these jewelers thrive on good reputations and not effing the customer. same with rolex dealers, pateks, APs, etc.
denverappraiser--hello, he didnt say the AGI was incorrect, he said GIA is just much more strict in general. GIA is just an opinion afterall, just like AGI is. of course GIA is the gold standard in the industry in todays world, i dont deny that. just clarifying.
also you said this "Add even the possibility of J color and the possibility of VG cut and that bottom drops to under $6k." so it sounds like at worst case scenario, i would pay $25K (4.18 carats x 6000), right? and this dealer is selling to me for 21.5K. this is why ive been considering it. is it too good to be true? possibly, thats why im passing.
"Why has this not already been done? " are you implying that any stone that is NOT GIA graded is a fraud or scam? tons of stones are graded, or graded with a more unknown grading agency, or graded in house. i have traditionally dealt with a diamond store in dallas, very reputable, and many of their diamonds are graded in house, thereby being cheaper. some people have to have GIA papers, some dont.
also you said this "Add even the possibility of J color and the possibility of VG cut and that bottom drops to under $6k." so it sounds like at worst case scenario, i would pay $25K (4.18 carats x 6000), right? and this dealer is selling to me for 21.5K. this is why ive been considering it. is it too good to be true? possibly, thats why im passing.
"Why has this not already been done? " are you implying that any stone that is NOT GIA graded is a fraud or scam? tons of stones are graded, or graded with a more unknown grading agency, or graded in house. i have traditionally dealt with a diamond store in dallas, very reputable, and many of their diamonds are graded in house, thereby being cheaper. some people have to have GIA papers, some dont.
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"if he were to grade them as GIA criteria, they would be H-I, SI2-I1"
Isn't GIA criteria the definition of what you're calling 'right'? That's definitely the standard being discussed here. I've never seen the stones at all so I"m not calling him right or wrong but he gave an opinion of what he thought GIA would call them and it differs importantly from what AGI said.
That was net prices I looked up, not prices per carat. To be fair, the bottom is closer to $7k, not $6k.
For example:
https://www.pricescope.com/diamonds/round/2_03-carat-j-color-i1-clarity-753431
FWIW, 4 carat total weight almost always means one slightly under and one slightly over 2 carats, NOT 2=2.00 each. The reason for this will be obvious if you play with the pricing grids. There is a considerable per carat price bump at >2.00 and the next one is at >3.00. This often will be the case even with 'matched' pairs as much as 4.50ctw.
Any stone being sold by a dealer for over about $5000 without credible paperwork is a red flag. There's a reason. Labs are chosen, and they're chosen strategically. The higher the price the more important this becomes. Perhaps I should rephrase the question. If a dealer can convert a $10,000 stone into a $20,000 stone by paying a few hundred bucks and waiting a month for GIA, why would they NOT do this?
Isn't GIA criteria the definition of what you're calling 'right'? That's definitely the standard being discussed here. I've never seen the stones at all so I"m not calling him right or wrong but he gave an opinion of what he thought GIA would call them and it differs importantly from what AGI said.
That was net prices I looked up, not prices per carat. To be fair, the bottom is closer to $7k, not $6k.
For example:
https://www.pricescope.com/diamonds/round/2_03-carat-j-color-i1-clarity-753431
FWIW, 4 carat total weight almost always means one slightly under and one slightly over 2 carats, NOT 2=2.00 each. The reason for this will be obvious if you play with the pricing grids. There is a considerable per carat price bump at >2.00 and the next one is at >3.00. This often will be the case even with 'matched' pairs as much as 4.50ctw.
Any stone being sold by a dealer for over about $5000 without credible paperwork is a red flag. There's a reason. Labs are chosen, and they're chosen strategically. The higher the price the more important this becomes. Perhaps I should rephrase the question. If a dealer can convert a $10,000 stone into a $20,000 stone by paying a few hundred bucks and waiting a month for GIA, why would they NOT do this?
nyquestioner
Shiny_Rock
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"when i asked IDJ about paying for GIA grading myself, and that it should not be a large fee, they response was that they are selling these excellent beautiful pair of diamonds as is, take it or leave it. their specific quote was, if you want GIA grading, i can get it for you, but you will pay significantly more. he was trying to convince me that if i dont like them, i can easily send them back."
This is the kind of shadiness that gives diamond district shops a bad name. I have heard good things on this board about this vendor, but I am wondering how anyone can recommend this vendor after hearing about these kinds of underhanded tactics.
I think it's obvious to everyone (including hopefully at this point the OP) that since the diamond business is in fact a business, diamonds will get graded wherever it is most profitable--that means that the dealer expects that if graded by GIA or AGS, these diamonds would be priced at less than the current price. Otherwise it would certainly be worthwhile to spend $100 on GIA grading if they could then sell for 5k more.
This is the kind of shadiness that gives diamond district shops a bad name. I have heard good things on this board about this vendor, but I am wondering how anyone can recommend this vendor after hearing about these kinds of underhanded tactics.
I think it's obvious to everyone (including hopefully at this point the OP) that since the diamond business is in fact a business, diamonds will get graded wherever it is most profitable--that means that the dealer expects that if graded by GIA or AGS, these diamonds would be priced at less than the current price. Otherwise it would certainly be worthwhile to spend $100 on GIA grading if they could then sell for 5k more.
Yekutiel
Shiny_Rock
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Good evening my friends ,
So many questions and so many concerns. There is a reason that any diamond you may be interested in is priced the way it is for a reason. If you seek GIA certified diamonds they will be priced a certain range and if you will find relatively the same specs graded by a different lab they would be priced differently by being less. The reason is many laboratories don’t have the same strict grading standards. That being said it doesn’t mean you aren’t getting your money’s worth. In regards to this 4.18ctw pair of diamond studs is from our preset collection which aren’t GIA certified and nor are they sold as GIA Condition certified diamonds. Therefore… they are less expensive. They do however have a third party appraisal and lab report from the AGI. Which we are not in any way affiliated with AGI. They are a separate company that appraises jewelry. Do I agree with their grading standards… sometimes yes and sometimes no, like any jeweler and gemologist is entitled to their opinion. For grading diamonds is subjective. A classic example is even the GIA doesn’t label there certs by certificate number rather it states “Report number” which indicates to me it’s their personal opinion and not a fact. I have seen times that even GIA missed the mark on color and clarity and I’m sure all the experts on this forum would agree.
EUGCHEN you do have a full 30 Day return window for a full refund if they don’t meet your expectations or standards. I know you would like to stay in a certain price range but realistically don’t expect to get GIA standards for an AGI price. Honestly, If you have concerns and doubts don’t take the risk and invest in non-certified diamonds only buy diamonds certified by the GIA or AGS and make sure they have great proportions.
Good Luck.
So many questions and so many concerns. There is a reason that any diamond you may be interested in is priced the way it is for a reason. If you seek GIA certified diamonds they will be priced a certain range and if you will find relatively the same specs graded by a different lab they would be priced differently by being less. The reason is many laboratories don’t have the same strict grading standards. That being said it doesn’t mean you aren’t getting your money’s worth. In regards to this 4.18ctw pair of diamond studs is from our preset collection which aren’t GIA certified and nor are they sold as GIA Condition certified diamonds. Therefore… they are less expensive. They do however have a third party appraisal and lab report from the AGI. Which we are not in any way affiliated with AGI. They are a separate company that appraises jewelry. Do I agree with their grading standards… sometimes yes and sometimes no, like any jeweler and gemologist is entitled to their opinion. For grading diamonds is subjective. A classic example is even the GIA doesn’t label there certs by certificate number rather it states “Report number” which indicates to me it’s their personal opinion and not a fact. I have seen times that even GIA missed the mark on color and clarity and I’m sure all the experts on this forum would agree.
EUGCHEN you do have a full 30 Day return window for a full refund if they don’t meet your expectations or standards. I know you would like to stay in a certain price range but realistically don’t expect to get GIA standards for an AGI price. Honestly, If you have concerns and doubts don’t take the risk and invest in non-certified diamonds only buy diamonds certified by the GIA or AGS and make sure they have great proportions.
Good Luck.
" Honestly, If you have concerns and doubts don’t take the risk and invest in non-certified diamonds only buy diamonds certified by the GIA or AGS and make sure they have great proportions. "
yep, that is what i decided to do.
i guess the point of many on this thread Yekutiel is why cant you pay $100 for GIA grading and immediately upsell this pair for more....can you do this? because wont these diamonds be worth much more with GIA papers? i dont know the answer, that is why im asking you.
thank you
yep, that is what i decided to do.
i guess the point of many on this thread Yekutiel is why cant you pay $100 for GIA grading and immediately upsell this pair for more....can you do this? because wont these diamonds be worth much more with GIA papers? i dont know the answer, that is why im asking you.
thank you
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eugchen|1485192749|4118574 said:
The GIA grades (the true grades) will be SO much lower that he'd have to charge a lower price for the same diamonds if sold with the GIA report.
Many here have tried to tell you this.
Unfortunately many vendors sell some or all diamonds this way, without grading reports from legit labs like AGS and GIA.
Putting them on the spot to explain why they do this on a public forum is like putting them in front of a firing squad for their crime.
But it will be fun to watch them try to dance around the bullets.
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Kenny...... can you define "public hair" for me? Washed & combed or what?
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