EGL vs GIA...
- Thread starter eugchen
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Around these parts, GIA and AGS are the gold standard.
EGL... well it depends. Which EGL are you talking about? I'd have more confidence in EGL USA's grading than any of the other independent labs bearing the EGL name based on horror stories I've googled up. My personal opinion is that overall EGL are looser in grading than GIA and AGS.
I would only buy EGL graded stones if they were priced accordingly. But around where I am in Australia, those stones are priced in a similar fashion to GIA graded stones but usually with a discount. So the average joe is likely to think that they are getting a real bargain. I've heard this exists also in the US as well. Let me give you an example of what happened to me...
I louped one EGL graded H VS2 in a chain store set in white gold almost three years ago when I was looking for a anniversary present for my wife (with her in tow). The colour was off by my estimation at least two grades (the H faced up quite yellow, more akin to a K/L that I had seen on the DCLA colour chart the store had). It was poorly cut as well (did not look very nice once we took it away from the spotlights) which meant more of the body colour came through looking at it set face up. The clarity was utterly atrocious. Two rather sizeable large black crystals under the table and there were reflections on the pavillion facets back up to the viewer. Didn't see the pavillion reflections without the loupe, but I did see those two big black crystals without magnification! I was calling that SI2 or I1 even as a newbie diamond nut back then.
There was another white gold set ring with a GIA graded J SI1 (very good cut grade) sitting in it. The mounted GIA stone was less yellow face up than the mounted EGL stone was. Roughly same carat weight (from memory, they both were around the 0.8ct mark). GIA SI1 looked more like what I had seen at James Allen with their vids for SI1 stones. Thankfully, the feathers and clouds were not under the table - while some feathers were black, some were white near the girdle. Was a couple of small white coloured crystals at the edge of the table where it meets the star and kite facets (didn't know what those facets were called back then!). I do recall the price however: the GIA J SI1 ring was AUD$4999, the EGL H VS2 ring was the same price after being discounted down from AUD$6000 but was told by the salesperson that she could do it for AUD$4500.
The salesperson had a knowing smile on her face when I said that I was favouring the GIA J SI1 in 18kt white gold but would need some time to think about it. There was faux shock on their face when they said "I can't believe you're passing up the H VS2 ring at that price!" We walked away very quickly and went into an independent family-owned B&M store a little bit further down in the shopping mall and found her anniversary present there (still had the heebie jeebies about buying such a big priced item online back then): 18kt white gold cathedral shank 4 split-prong ring setting with a 0.7ct G SI1 GIA XXX sitting in it and we paid around AUD$7800 for it then (which I now know was a little high compared with online prices but at the time, it seemed like the best way to go for us.)
EGL in my books = caveat emptor / buyer beware. I stay away from EGL stones these days but do enjoy louping them in-store every now and then just to see what is being offered at what price point.
EGL... well it depends. Which EGL are you talking about? I'd have more confidence in EGL USA's grading than any of the other independent labs bearing the EGL name based on horror stories I've googled up. My personal opinion is that overall EGL are looser in grading than GIA and AGS.
I would only buy EGL graded stones if they were priced accordingly. But around where I am in Australia, those stones are priced in a similar fashion to GIA graded stones but usually with a discount. So the average joe is likely to think that they are getting a real bargain. I've heard this exists also in the US as well. Let me give you an example of what happened to me...
I louped one EGL graded H VS2 in a chain store set in white gold almost three years ago when I was looking for a anniversary present for my wife (with her in tow). The colour was off by my estimation at least two grades (the H faced up quite yellow, more akin to a K/L that I had seen on the DCLA colour chart the store had). It was poorly cut as well (did not look very nice once we took it away from the spotlights) which meant more of the body colour came through looking at it set face up. The clarity was utterly atrocious. Two rather sizeable large black crystals under the table and there were reflections on the pavillion facets back up to the viewer. Didn't see the pavillion reflections without the loupe, but I did see those two big black crystals without magnification! I was calling that SI2 or I1 even as a newbie diamond nut back then.
There was another white gold set ring with a GIA graded J SI1 (very good cut grade) sitting in it. The mounted GIA stone was less yellow face up than the mounted EGL stone was. Roughly same carat weight (from memory, they both were around the 0.8ct mark). GIA SI1 looked more like what I had seen at James Allen with their vids for SI1 stones. Thankfully, the feathers and clouds were not under the table - while some feathers were black, some were white near the girdle. Was a couple of small white coloured crystals at the edge of the table where it meets the star and kite facets (didn't know what those facets were called back then!). I do recall the price however: the GIA J SI1 ring was AUD$4999, the EGL H VS2 ring was the same price after being discounted down from AUD$6000 but was told by the salesperson that she could do it for AUD$4500.
The salesperson had a knowing smile on her face when I said that I was favouring the GIA J SI1 in 18kt white gold but would need some time to think about it. There was faux shock on their face when they said "I can't believe you're passing up the H VS2 ring at that price!" We walked away very quickly and went into an independent family-owned B&M store a little bit further down in the shopping mall and found her anniversary present there (still had the heebie jeebies about buying such a big priced item online back then): 18kt white gold cathedral shank 4 split-prong ring setting with a 0.7ct G SI1 GIA XXX sitting in it and we paid around AUD$7800 for it then (which I now know was a little high compared with online prices but at the time, it seemed like the best way to go for us.)
EGL in my books = caveat emptor / buyer beware. I stay away from EGL stones these days but do enjoy louping them in-store every now and then just to see what is being offered at what price point.
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I have used these three laboratories: GIA, AGS and EGL-USA. My experience with EGL was just fine, in my opinion they graded my diamond very correctly. GIA never failed in accuracy either. My only problem was once with AGS. A triple Ideal diamond was graded VS1 clarity, but it had big black crystal right under the table, well, visible only under 10x loupe, still too big to be VS1. The second issue with the same diamond certificate was the fluorescence. It was graded "negligible" by AGS, in fact the fluorescence was medium to strong blue, even not fine! So, after that experience with high rated laboratory I prefer not to take for granted the good or bad fame of any of the diamond laboratories.
I would rate GIA at the top, but not avoiding EGL-USA.
I would rate GIA at the top, but not avoiding EGL-USA.
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There have been many discussions about this.
There are a few special cases when you might buy an EGL stone, but the short answer is: Don't buy an EGL stone.
EGL, even EGL USA, is essentially a scam. Here's why.
EGL is inconsistent in their grading, and they offer a pre-grading option. That's when you send the stone to be graded, see the results, and can choose to reject the results, not buy the certificate, and just pay a small fee.
All sellers know enough grading to be able to grade their stones. They calculate how much they can sell a GIA stone for, and they calculate the "EGL discount" on their stone. The discount is rising, but I think it's between 2.5 to 3 grades. They send the stone to EGL. If the grading is not soft by at least 3 grades, they reject the certificate, send the stone to GIA, and be done with it. That gives EGL a huge incentive to grade soft.
EGL stones are NEVER a bargain. They just aren't. No matter how many grades you mentally subtract to imagine its GIA grades, you haven't subtracted enough if it still looks like a bargain.
Just don't buy one. There are enough GIA and AGS stones out there that you can get anything you like (unless it's an antique--that's one of the few exceptions).
There are a few special cases when you might buy an EGL stone, but the short answer is: Don't buy an EGL stone.
EGL, even EGL USA, is essentially a scam. Here's why.
EGL is inconsistent in their grading, and they offer a pre-grading option. That's when you send the stone to be graded, see the results, and can choose to reject the results, not buy the certificate, and just pay a small fee.
All sellers know enough grading to be able to grade their stones. They calculate how much they can sell a GIA stone for, and they calculate the "EGL discount" on their stone. The discount is rising, but I think it's between 2.5 to 3 grades. They send the stone to EGL. If the grading is not soft by at least 3 grades, they reject the certificate, send the stone to GIA, and be done with it. That gives EGL a huge incentive to grade soft.
EGL stones are NEVER a bargain. They just aren't. No matter how many grades you mentally subtract to imagine its GIA grades, you haven't subtracted enough if it still looks like a bargain.
Just don't buy one. There are enough GIA and AGS stones out there that you can get anything you like (unless it's an antique--that's one of the few exceptions).
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bmfang|1484282981|4114956 said:
I think we're already in agreement- but to be even more clear- it is not about "around here" referring to Pricescope.
It's around here referring to the diamond business as a whole.
Dealers ALL know that EGL grading means nothing.
If a seller is telling you EGL is ok, the seller is giving you all the info you need.
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eugchen|1484278646|4114938 said:
Here is the reason I'd not consider buying a diamond graded by EGL.
Since you can't trust EGL's grades you can't know the fair price.
Sellers exploit this unknown by getting away with often charging MORE for an EGL diamond than they could charge if the same diamond had a GIA report with the worse (but accurate) grades.
I consider this fraud.
I won't support it.
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EGL-USA's cut grading system is a joke. There is no in depth explanation on how they assess cut grade.
EGL-USA's clarity/color grading is highly inconsistent.
Their research page is pathetic. http://www.eglusa.com/research/
This lab is fake, unethical and non-scientific. Any grade report such lab means nothing.
EGL-USA's clarity/color grading is highly inconsistent.
Their research page is pathetic. http://www.eglusa.com/research/
This lab is fake, unethical and non-scientific. Any grade report such lab means nothing.
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flyingpig|1484332070|4115070 said:
So far as I know, they haven't told anyone that a sim is a real diamond. That's more than I can say for a lot of those "back of the store" labs, but that's about all the good that can be said about them.
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Good point ChristineRose
There's aspects of an EGL report that might be of value, depending on who's looking at it.
Just today I need a lower priced 2ct Cushion for a client.
I have a buddy who has some cheaper stones- all have EGL USA reports.
I won't use the grades off the reports to represent the diamonds- but the measurements are fine- as well as the fact EGL would catch synthetic or non diamonds.
I have the advantage of being able to grade the diamonds myself.
One of the stones here was graded H/SI2 by EGL USA.
I'm quite sure GIA will grade the diamond J ( possible I) I1 clarity.
There's virtually no chance GIA would grade this SI2. The difference in price between GIA graded SI2 and I1 is very substantial.
None of this means it's a "bad" stone. I love properly graded I1 stones like this one, as long as the price is right.
The locations and makeup of the imperfections makes it an eye clean stone- but that's not the point.
In the hands of a seller who does not know how to grade, or care, it would be offered as an SI2 which is priced 30% less than a GIA graded SI2. The less principled seller will use this to prove that GIA is expensive.
Bad for consumers.....
There's aspects of an EGL report that might be of value, depending on who's looking at it.
Just today I need a lower priced 2ct Cushion for a client.
I have a buddy who has some cheaper stones- all have EGL USA reports.
I won't use the grades off the reports to represent the diamonds- but the measurements are fine- as well as the fact EGL would catch synthetic or non diamonds.
I have the advantage of being able to grade the diamonds myself.
One of the stones here was graded H/SI2 by EGL USA.
I'm quite sure GIA will grade the diamond J ( possible I) I1 clarity.
There's virtually no chance GIA would grade this SI2. The difference in price between GIA graded SI2 and I1 is very substantial.
None of this means it's a "bad" stone. I love properly graded I1 stones like this one, as long as the price is right.
The locations and makeup of the imperfections makes it an eye clean stone- but that's not the point.
In the hands of a seller who does not know how to grade, or care, it would be offered as an SI2 which is priced 30% less than a GIA graded SI2. The less principled seller will use this to prove that GIA is expensive.
Bad for consumers.....
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Rockdiamond|1484329042|4115063 said:
Hearty agreement here Rockdiamond!
The sad part is that even though larger numbers of consumers are getting savvy by educating themselves, there are still vast numbers of consumers who really couldn't give a **** to research such a significant purchase themselves. And they are the perfect customer for jewellers who sell EGL graded stones.
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