Cushion Cut Help Request w/ Pictures!

[Cushion4Life]

I've recently started "the search" and have used some local vendors to start the process. I have found a stone I like, but I am not sure on the specs. I know everyone says you have to see a cushion in person, but I am a little concerned about the depth and specs.

Any input would be much appreciated.


Cushion Sq. Modified Brilliant
Weight: 2.81 cwt
Color: G
Clarity: VS2

Measurements: 7.97 x 7.73 x 5.54

Cert: EGL USA

Depth: 71.7%
Table: 63%
Crown: 15.7%
Pavilion: 51.2%
Girdle: Medium to Very Thick Faceted

Culet: None

Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Very Good

Fluorescence: Faint

 

[tuffyluvr]

I would be very wary of EGL certs. You should definitely search the forums here to educate yourself on the differences between EGL, GIA and AGS.

I can't tell if it's the setting that it's in, but something looks slightly 'off' about this stone... I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable PS'ers will be able to give you advice on this stone, but definitely start by educating yourself

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

I would be very wary of EGL certs. You should definitely search the forums here to educate yourself on the differences between EGL, GIA and AGS.

I can't tell if it's the setting that it's in, but something looks slightly 'off' about this stone... I'm sure some of the more knowledgeable PS'ers will be able to give you advice on this stone, but definitely start by educating yourself

I agree with this post completely.

 

[Cushion4Life]

Thanks for the replies. I should have clarified about the 'setting'. The actual ring/setting is just one of those temporary holders they have at jewelry stores so you can get a rough idea about what your stone kinda will look like mounted. That's literally just a "dummy ring". The stone is loose.

Does that change any opinions now when evaluating it just for the stone and ignoring the ring aspect?

I've found I can get a 2.5cwt - 3cwt with the specs I want for my budget if it's EGL. GIA stones have carried those "GIA premiums" kicking the size I want over my budget my several thousand, sometimes $5k - $10k more.

Here's the stone completely loose. It's the stone all the way to the RIGHT in both pictures below. Not the best angles....but all I have for right now.

 

[tuffyluvr]

I see that is a temp/dummy setting. I just can't tell if it's the way the prongs are off center, or if the stone itself looks a bit off. It looks sort of wonky and lopsided. Personally, I would rather have a smaller stone with a better cut. I actually turned down a larger EGL diamond for a smaller GIA for my own engagement ring.

EGL grades are soft--often several grades lower than GIA or AGS. Jewlers typically send a stone to be certified by the AGS or GIA first because they are the 'gold standard' in the industry, and demand higher premiums (which is why they are overbudget). If the stone does not get a very good grade from the GIA or AGS they will often send it to the EGL where it will get a higher grade. This makes the stone seem more desireable to consumers and the jeweler can sell it for a higher profit.

Of course, you are the the one spending big bucks on it! If you have seen the stone in person and you adore it, and the number one priority is size, go for it. You know what you like!

 

[thbmok]

I'm still learning about cushions, but FWIW I find the tilt window in the stone in IMG_0305.jpg a little distracting, and am also concerned over the small face up size for its carat weight: 2.81 ct measuring 7.97 x 7.73 mm

For comparison a well cut AVC from GOG at 2.28 ct measures 8.16 x 7.74 mm: http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/8502/

 

[farmer gal]

what is your budget for the stone?

 

[slg47]

actually, EGL often grades softer than GIA or AGS, so an EGL G may be priced lower than a GIA G, but GIA may not grade the stone a G...it may be an H/I/J. so EGL may appear to be offering a 'savings' on stones of the same grade but they are really not the same grade. In fact, these stones often are more expensive than their 'correct' grade.

Since you are looking for a cushion I am going to recommend this video which explains the different appearances that cushions can take. Once you identify what you are looking for then you can compare to what you see in your local stores and/or online.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1O7H8E_MYRM

 

[Cushion4Life]

what is your budget for the stone?

Thank you again for the replies. I am looking to spend between $20,000 - $23,000 for the stone. If this was about 12-18 months ago it wouldn't be a problem for my budget and the specs I want. Unfortunately, what I am finding now is that to get into that 2.5 - 2.99 carat weight and still have (what I consider) acceptable specs, I have to look at EGL diamonds to really even get close.

I have read a lot on EGLs and the 1+ variance in clarity and color in terms of reality vs. certificate.

The small faceup size is a little discouraging to me too, because the depth is already over 70%. Between that and the girdle I am a little worried about the diamond hiding a lot of it's weight where it isn't visually noticeable, a bad thing.

I have looked at probably a dozen different stones and a lot of them have been EGL with a few GIA. I'm trying to stretch the budget because I want a high quality diamond in terms of colorless/near colorless (F or G) and a size of at least 2.5cwt, hopefully higher. I am OK with a VS2 or SI1 (as long as it is eye clean). I haven't been overly impressed with the brilliance/scintillation I have seen in the quality of cuts.

I mentioned in another thread that I bought my ASET even and when used on some of the stones, they game back with predominately white, some green, and little or no red or blue. This leads me to believe I was not using it correctly, but regardless I haven't been blown away with anything I've seen. I have even compiled about 4 pages of research/notes on Cushion Cuts and what to look for and not look for based on some of the GOG videos and internet research. At the end of the day I am not sure if when I look at these stones I am fooling myself by trying to be a "pro-sumer" when I shouldn't be or if some of these stones are actually good quality, even though they are EGL.

 

[CharmyPoo]

My 2 cents .. forget about weeding out diamonds through ASET until step 2. What do I actually mean here? If we think about a RB, they are generally cut the same way. The best have clear hearts and arrows .. the less ideal have less distinct hearts and arrows. For cushions, they look really different depending on the facet pattern because there is a much bigger range and variety. So for me, I would recommend step 1 is to look at the diamond and facet pattern to determine if you like it. If it passes that test, then you can examine with an ASET scope etc.

The diamond pictured above does not have a pleasing facet pattern in my opinion. I would have dismissed it. Add to that, it has a really dark center in most of the photos which indicates to me that it is a poor performer.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Hi Cushion4Life
First and foremost, let me clear up a huge misunderstanding:
EGL graded diamonds are NOT cheaper than GIA graded diamonds. In fact, if there's a premium, it's probably against non GIA graded diamonds.
Worse yet, the buyer might not even realize they paid a premium till they go to sell- then find out an expected EGL "one grade" discrepancy was actually 4 grades- and that the M SI2 they bought ( graded as J/VS2 by EGL) actually cost MORE than a legitimately graded M/SI2
Another part of the premium buyers of EGL graded diamonds face is dealing with a seller willing to sell stones they know are not graded properly. This is a really bad one.
It's very important to choose your seller carefully- if they are hawking misgraded diamonds, it's a horrible pedigree.
Also- it's extremely common for the worst cut diamonds to get sent to EGL.
The finer cut stones are far more often sent to GIA.
The demographic works- someone unconcerned about accurate grading is less interested in a well cut stone.

As far as ASET- it's a scientific device- but the results are really open to interpretation- and to such a great degree, my personal feeling is that photos and videos are far more informative to consumers.
That's not to say you were not looking at some badly cut stones- but from the sound of it the stones were not on the light properly.
Tilt changes everything on an ASET.


There's so much you're asking that falls within the realm of opinion.
Sorry if you've already mentioned this- but are you more looking for a modern looking stone or one with an antique vibe?

 

[Cushion4Life]

I definitely do not like the "crushed ice" look, but other than that I don't understand all the pros vs cons of the different facet patterns.

 

[CharmyPoo]

I definitely do not like the "crushed ice" look, but other than that I don't understand all the pros vs cons of the different facet patterns.

Others may disagree but I truly believe that the facet pattern has the biggest impact on how a cushion looks. If you look at the example pictures in your other thread, you can clearly see the difference between 3 different facet patterns. There are a heck of a lot more than those 3 patterns for cushions. It is hard to say what the pros and cons are because so much of it is personal preference.



1 - This pattern is going to give you big bold flashes of lights similar to older cuts.
2 - This is the most common pattern for cushion brilliants. For me, I can always see that X pattern in the diamond which I don't like but many have no issues with it.
3/4 - This is similar to what you will find in a round diamond and is also similar to the plot for the square H&A. I love this plot for a modern looking cushion as I find that it sparkles more and doesn't have that X pattern which I don't like.

When I first started down the cushion path, my hubby put a diamond with pattern 2 on hold. I saw it and thought it was nice. Then, I was shown a diamond with pattern 3 and I was blown away. It was literally night and day for me. Over time, I developed a liking for bigger and bolder patterns which is why I ended up getting a cushion with pattern 1. Note that all the diamonds I spoke about above were within the table and depth ranges I mentioned previously.

This is a horrible picture of the diamonds (not cleaned and bad lighting) but you can see how different they look. The middle diamond is plot pattern 3 and the one to the right is plot pattern 1. The middle diamond looks a heck of a lot better in real life and the leakage (dark spots) is less evident. The right diamond is an Augsut Vintage Cushion and is bright ALL the time - you will never see dark spots and this is also indicated by the ASET image which is partically all red.


Another picture of the middle diamond. In this one, it looks a lot brighter because of where the light is coming from and how it is reflected (described in detail in your other thread). The ASET would show the same effect as per green, blue or white for the dark areas.


Another picture of the right diamond. Even at this funky angle with indoor lighting .. notice how bright it is.


I also believe table size and crown/pavillion angles play a huge role (not unlike other diamonds). As an example, the large table on TheGreatTwizz's diamond makes it look very very different than one with a smaller table.

Of course, the other Cs come into play - color, clarity, cost.

The above does not cover modified cushion brilliants. I will have to dig up photos to show you how different they look. I don't have many examples as I personally don't like them and didn't spend a lot of time saving photos or links.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Just saw this in the other thread .. this is what plot pattern 2 looks like. You can see the prominent X I described.

 

[Cushion4Life]

Thank you Rock Diamond and CharmyPoo all your help between this thread and the other one is awesome.

I am taking it all in and digesting it. Can you give me a specific opinion on the below/attached diamond?
I trust the person representing the stone, who says it is great, I am just looking for other opinions as you've proven not only knowledgeable, but helpful.

CushyPoo - This has a GIA Facet Plot 1, based on your key from the other thread.





Cushion Brilliant
Measurements 8.16 x 7.73 x 5.09

2.4cwt
Color: H
Clarity: VS2

Polish: VG
Symmetry: Good
Florescence: None

Table: 58%
Depth: 65.8%
Girdle: Slightly Thick to Very Thick (faceted)
Culet: Medim

 

[TheGreatTwizz]

Looks like a great antique style stone. is that an ACB cushion from ERD?

 

[Cushion4Life]

Yes, how did you know?

So you like the look of it via ASET and in general? There is a video too of it spinning.

 

[CharmyPoo]

It isn't hard to tell it is an ERD stone because they can never get their ASET image right. Hehehe.

Honestly, a nice stone but not a great stone in my opinion. The facet pattern is really nice but I am concerned about darkness on the table. Again, can't be sure because of the ASET setup and also darkness can be the way photo is taken. Can you link the video?

 

[Cushion4Life]

Here's the video...

What do you think?


http://www.youtube.com/user/xristoserd2011?feature=mhee#p/u/9/GVKknO5Udy4

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

I hate how in videos like that they spin 360, we don't care about the back of the stone! A better video would have the diamond resting on someone's hand and moving back and forth in a normal viewing position.

It looks like it will be better than the first you proposed in both cut and value. I suggest you see it in person to decide how you feel. Take it into different lighting and in particular, see if the center under the table looks dark or lifeless in some lighting, and in particular when you look at the diamond from less than full arm's length.

 

[Cushion4Life]

DreamerD - Are you concerned about how the center looks under the table because there is a medium culet? Or for a more general reason?

 

[CharmyPoo]

It beats the first diamond you are looking at by miles and miles. It looks like a nice diamond - it isn't going to be perfect but this is probably one of the best you can find given your requirements.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Throwing out another option. No better around the table than your current stone. It is probably also too yellow for you but there is charm and appeal in a true old stone.

http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/Jewelry/Loose-Diamonds/224ct-Antique-Cushion-Cut/20826208_tDvbmh#!i=1653226997&k=9QfBbvF

 

[Cushion4Life]

I've found GOG to be priced really high compared to most other vendors. I'm not saying that it might not be for a reason, but by their pricing it seems I'd be lucky to get a 2.0ct diamond for my budget. They don't seem to have tons of options from what I have seen and what they do have is pricey.

Why do you guys say it looks dark under the table? You mean that black circler outline on the ASET? How will that effect how the stone looks?

 

[CharmyPoo]

You see the cross? It is dark most of the time.

Honestly, to fully avoid that you will need to get the AVC which is going to be much more expensive and you won't be able to get the size you want. The diamond here is good so don't worry and go for it - if you can see it in person and decide .. even better.

 

[Cushion4Life]

Throwing out another option. No better around the table than your current stone. It is probably also too yellow for you but there is charm and appeal in a true old stone.

http://jewelsbyericagrace.smugmug.com/Jewelry/Loose-Diamonds/224ct-Antique-Cushion-Cut/20826208_tDvbmh#!i=1653226997&k=9QfBbvF

It is out of my color range...beautiful stone though. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Cushion4Life]

You see the cross? It is dark most of the time.

Honestly, to fully avoid that you will need to get the AVC which is going to be much more expensive and you won't be able to get the size you want. The diamond here is good so don't worry and go for it - if you can see it in person and decide .. even better.

The AVC just seems really highly priced. For what you give up in clarity and/or cwt to get that great "cut", I'm not sure I can justify if personally. Beautiful diamonds though.



What is the cross you are referring to on the ASET image? I think I know what you mean, but not 100% sure.

I haven't pulled the trigger on anything yet, because I would rather the diamond be a little bigger in cwt, but I am considering it still for sure. I cannot see it in person beforehand. I'd have to order it and then maybe return it.


What are your thoughts on having these "sight unseen" diamonds sent directly to a 3rd party appraiser for their thoughts before purchase? Any value in doing that?

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

DreamerD - Are you concerned about how the center looks under the table because there is a medium culet? Or for a more general reason?

No the culet is not important, but under the table on antique cushions and other old style cuts that really only have four pavilions mains in that area (i.e., fewer facets) seems to be an area that is often dark and lifeless accross lighting conditions. Light does not reflect from that area properly sometimes. Contrast is fine, but those four main facets should light up and go dark as you move your hand. You don't want them to all go dark at the same time. You also don't want the stone to go dark and dead when you look at it closer to your face. As Chrmy says, a AVC may be among the only type of antique style cushion that *never* goes dark in those central pavilion mains. I had one for awhile and they are amazing, no doubt. And that is why they cost more. But you can find other cushions that look good, but you need to look at it accross different type of lighting to make sure.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

Do you see how the red circles in the attached picture each encircles a triagular facet? Those four facets are called "pavilion mains" and they form a cross, called a maltese cross. Thos four facets are the crux of this discussion. In a really well cut cushion, those four facets will flash "on and off" as the stone moves. In a well cut stone, only one at a time (basically) will be "dark", and they will all flash on and off as your hand moves. In a less well cut stone, those four facets will stay dark all the time at worst, or onle one will "light up" at a time. So we are saying that you want to see this stone in person and examine how it looks in that table area to make sure the facets are not overl dark and lifeless.

You can have an appraiser see it before you see it, sure. But i think YOU need to see it to know if you like how it looks above anything else.

 

[CharmyPoo]

Honestly, if you are buying it from ERD - I don't see a benefit for going for appraisal prior to your purchase. Most appraisers are just going to validate the specs. I hate to say this but very few will give you the critical analysis that we are giving you here. This is unless you find one who is a total cut nut and has all the high tech equipment. I found Richard Sherwood to be very very helpful but he is MIA