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Appraisers who also know about historical goldsmithing?

faerowan

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 19, 2015
Messages
2
Hi!

My boyfriend (now fiance) just proposed (hurray!).

He bought a beautiful early-mid 20s ring in the diamond district with a ton of unusual filagree work. It also has some unusual features.

a) mixed metal - the top of the setting looks like it is unmarked 18k white gold, in what we think is a mixture for that period that looks like the chemical composition would probably only have been made by Belais Brothers. The shank and band, however, are 14k yellow gold. The band is marked 14k gold

b) mixed patterns - The top is much more distinctly machine age patterned in its filagree work. The shank has a different filagree pattern than the top, full of floral loops that look like they could be late art nouveau. The band is a third pattern -wheat sheaves. The white gold top portion is a pattern set that looks likes something Belais Brothers would make.

c) No makers marker whatsoever anywhere, or even sentimental engravings.

d) Odd stone choice - the piece actually still has its original stone in it - an old mine cut that is unusually white. He suspected it might be an indian stone too, or a really early S. Africa stone.

The person we bought from suspected it this is an original unmarked custom Belais Brothers with a much older band and an old family stone. Alternatively, there were a limited number of other white gold manufactures during the period with different chemical compositions than Belais Bros. However, he didn't know. he did give an appraisal, but I suspect getting a second/third opinion is a good idea.

If it is a real Belais piece that is unmarked, the value is much higher. Even giving a named craftperson would help set a better value on the piece given that it really can't be recreated (even if I 3d scan it to try). That sort of complex filagree work by hand without CAD/Lasers is rarely done today, so the labor value to recreate would be extremely high if I can find someone at all.

who would be a good appraiser for the setting as much as the stone? Most of the people here reviewing appraisers talk about the diamond/colored stones. While I am interested in an appraisal, it isn't the highest priority per say for me in the appraisal scheme of things. Having someone familiar with Belais's books/catalogs/receipts might be more useful - as well as most of the major competitors that were not Tiffany's in the US (and possibly abroad as well, since there were more unmarked Jewelers there.) A lot more people have probably seen old stones than seen the inside of Belais's books/good examples of if/when they made unmarked pieces. I'm looking for that person.

I'm NYC based

See My Kinda Bad Pics if you need to think about this (particular the side. I may come back and retake a picture)

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denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
9,051
As you point out, estimated reproduction cost isn’t the question at hand. You want to know what an item like that would go for in the open market, right? Given that you just bought it in the open market, you already have a price for the best comp ever... That very item. Most appraisers rather actively avoid speculation on things like manufacturer, country of origins and the like and, when we do it, label it with phrases like ‘hypothetical assumption’. That’s surely not what you’re looking for. You’ve said that the seller already gave you documentation on it containing the above data, and it presumably includes his theories on the manufacturer, country of origin of the stones and so on. That leaves me a bit confused on what you’re looking for out of a new appraisal. Confirmation that what he told you is correct, or at least plausible?

Belias was proud of their alloy to be sure, but I know of no non-destructive tests that will give you the recipe of what was used and even if you had that, it wouldn’t mean it was made by Belias. Style is not sufficient to declare a manufacturer.

(FWIW, I'm probably not the appraiser you're looking for)
 

Circe

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Messages
8,087
Fae, I suspect you might be looking for a jewelry historian rather than a straight-up appraiser. It sounds like it's as much wanting to know the history of your ring as its value, yes?
 

faerowan

Rough_Rock
Joined
Aug 19, 2015
Messages
2
denverappraiser|1440011649|3916451 said:
As you point out, estimated reproduction cost isn’t the question at hand. You want to know what an item like that would go for in the open market, right? Given that you just bought it in the open market, you already have a price for the best comp ever... That very item. Most appraisers rather actively avoid speculation on things like manufacturer, country of origins and the like and, when we do it, label it with phrases like ‘hypothetical assumption’. That’s surely not what you’re looking for. You’ve said that the seller already gave you documentation on it containing the above data, and it presumably includes his theories on the manufacturer, country of origin of the stones and so on. That leaves me a bit confused on what you’re looking for out of a new appraisal. Confirmation that what he told you is correct, or at least plausible?

Belias was proud of their alloy to be sure, but I know of no non-destructive tests that will give you the recipe of what was used and even if you had that, it wouldn’t mean it was made by Belias. Style is not sufficient to declare a manufacturer.

Totally - though I disagree about getting knowledge about manufacturing from other sources. Those other sources can have real value in the market if one were to arbitrage. (not that I am.)

And the short answer: best quality confirmation and as many details as possible about the ring.

denverappraiser|1440011649|3916451 said:
(FWIW, I'm probably not the appraiser you're looking for)

That's ok! :angel:

Circe|1440011965|3916457 said:
Fae, I suspect you might be looking for a jewelry historian rather than a straight-up appraiser. It sounds like it's as much wanting to know the history of your ring as its value, yes?

Yup. Or at least someone who can explain the weirdness. (not in a bad way weirdness, just, weirdness). All the speculation is speculation - learning why the craft decisions were made either is or is not impactive on the value, but definitely gives a better idea of what the ring actually is (beyond a ring). I'm also going to just be surprised about if vintage/antique pieces should be seen by historians more often - understanding craft in various periods is a good thing!
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Sep 3, 2000
Messages
6,642
The diamond in the center looks perfectly round and not at all cushion shaped like an old mine cut. It looks Old European cut period and the dating of the mounting in the 20's is possibly right. A lot of rings similar to this had platinum tops on 14kt yellow gold shank and underbezels. How was the 18K white gold determined? If it was tested with an electronic tester it is likely a test which is incorrect. The electronic testers often send a mixed message when platinum on yellow gold is tested due to a combination of user error and the device possibly not reading one metal, but both and "averaging" to an extent.

How can you be sure the center diamond in the original? The bright cut surrounding the beads holding in the diamond is very broad. In the times where diamonds were not so costly, the tendency was to use a plate closer to the diameter of the diamond. How was the originality of the diamond determined?

The lack of any trademark is all there is. It would be speculation that it was made by a particular maker, even if it seemed identical to one with a trademark. Copies of popular, beautiful, branded items were common 100 years ago just as they are today. Pursuing the plan to really know much more likely won't be overly productive. When a 'name" is important, then it must be on the item to make any difference that might exist. When it isn't there, that is the end of the road for any "added value".
 

Sphene

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
666
I am not an expert but just enjoy looking at copious amounts of rings - to me this looks late 60's/70's style so very intrigued to follow your journey of discovery - good luck
 
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