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4.79ct Tiffany Lucida

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Phoenix

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I posted this on Hangout and got no reply thus far. Maybe I am being impatient! Maybe it's in the wrong forum. Anyway, I am reposting this here in the hope someone would be able to chime in and help me out:

************************************************

I'm considering bidding for this and have in mind an upper limit (it's on pages 46-47, item no 345):

http://www.skinnerinc.com/pdf/442_3.pdf?thisID=7426



I've posted a question on Rocky Talky to Nicrez about the mechanics of the bidding process (I think I am going to bid on the telephone). My other questions to you all are:



1) Since I won't be able to see the ring and the stone in person, I'd better have it independently appraised, right? So who in the Boston area would you recommend to do the appraisal, bearing in mind they may have to go to Skinner to do that (I don't think Skinner would send the ring to the appraiser)? or



2) Would a Condition Report and a Valuation report (don't know if the latter exists or not, haven't had a chance to speak to the jewellery people at Skinner) give me sufficient details?



3) If my bid is the winning bid, I am going to ask them to ship it to Chicago for us to pick up later when we visit DH's family. I think there's a storage fee and shipping/ insurance charges. Are there any issues I should be concerned with relating to storage and shipping, insurance?



4) My ring size is about 4 1/4 - 4 1/2. Should mine be the winning bid, I would like to have it re-sized by Tiffany in S'pore or Chicago or Boston, down from its current size 6. Would they able to do it? Would that "spoil" the beauty of the setting?



What other questions should I ask? I already know the estimate range, have already read the GIA report on the internet. Not sure what else to look out for. Am a bit concerned since I've never ever bought anything online, let alone something of this price magnitude.



Thank you.
 

solange

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I have not bought anything at Skinner but I do attend most of the jewelry auctions at Sotheby's and Christie's where we have accounts for many years and know people there who will usually give us honest assessments because they want our business.However, even they are not always reliable.

I have not bought anything of this magnitude in jewelry but I do know that they have experts in the jewelry departments who will discuss the specifics of the item. On a few occasions, certain defects were pointed out to me, such as an eternity band where all the stones were not well matched and a sapphire and diamond ring where a very large center stone sapphire was not of the best color although it looked great to me.

I would imagine that Skinner offers the same service. If you do not have an account there with all your financial credentials on file I doubt that they will let you bid because they have no assurance that you are a serious bidder. If you do not already have an account at Skinner, I would call and find out how to open one before the sale. Also bidding on the phone can be very stressful on such an expensive item unless you are used to doing this. The bidding goes very fast and you do not have a moment to think.

Some galleries will give you a representative who will bid for you from the floor until you reach your maximum bid.There is no extra charge for this service. As to getting someone to come up and appraise it for you, if it is a real bargain he may want to buy it himself or sell you something he has so you would have to be careful of whom you engage.

Also, at all the sales I have attended, they have a special section for jewelers who have items they are interested in pulled for them for close examination. Even if the estimate is low, often items go for far more than their estimates. Our experience with auction galleries is mainly with antique furniture and silver--we are collectors of both--but I am certain that the same pertains to jewelry. Dealers from all over the country come to these sales and it is rare that you get a bargain but on some occasions we have. But this seems to be a heavily advertised sale and a rather low estimate for a desirable item. It will probably get a lot of interest.

If you decide to go ahead with it, good luck but I would be wary of something I have not seen and if by chance it does go for a price below wholesale, you can be sure that a jeweler will grab it up.

I do not know about the policy of having it shipped out of town to save sales tax. I am not sure that they would ship to any but your own address. Auction galleries and some of the top jewelry dealers in Manhattan have gotten caught doing this for celebrities and have paid heavy fines. I believe it is illegal particularly if they knowingly do this.
 

denverappraiser

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Solange gave a good summary of the logistics of how to bid from far away. Contact the auction house in advance about your intentions and they will be happy to accommodate you to make the process work. They do this a lot.

If the gallery ships out of state they are not obligated to collect sales taxes in most cases. This doesn’t mean that taxes aren’t owed and this is the trap that the celebrities and others got into. If the gallery claims to ship out of state when they actually make an in-state delivery then they are in the soup as well. There are other variations where they can be called an ‘accessory’ if they knowingly assist a client in evading taxes. In your case, I think you’re probably safe as long as you are not a Illinois resident but you might want to contact the Illinois tax authorities to be sure. The rule usually has to do with merchandise that is consumed or stored in a particular jurisdiction so the question becomes one of exactly how long is it permitted to be there before it’s considered being ‘stored’ there rather than merely being transshipped on it’s way to Singapore. Owing an extra 8% plus penalties and interest would be a nasty surprise. You will, of course, need to report to Singapore customs when you import it back home.

Why not just have them ship from Boston directly to you in S’pore? Surely Skinners has the wherewithal to arrange this.

Shipping and insurance will be handled by the gallery and you may be able to arrange to have a trusted person in Chicago receive the package at a bank and immediately put it in a safe deposit box there until you are in town and able to retrieve it. The bank will, of course, charge you for the box but it’s usually pretty nominal. Bear in mind that this might qualify as storage for the purposes of the taxman.

This sort of ring rarely has problems being sized but Tiffany keeps pretty good records given the serial number. Ring up your local store and ask them.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

erica k

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the auction is on ebay, too. the seller''s name is ''skinnerinc.''

too bad the photo isn''t very good. a hand shot would be helpful in visualizing the scale. i saw a few lucidas in the 3-4 carat range, and they are massive! i can''t even imagine what a 4.79 would look like.

good luck with your upgrade search!
 

Phoenix

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Date: 9/8/2007 1:25:12 PM
Author: solange
I have not bought anything at Skinner but I do attend most of the jewelry auctions at Sotheby''s and Christie''s where we have accounts for many years and know people there who will usually give us honest assessments because they want our business.However, even they are not always reliable.

I have not bought anything of this magnitude in jewelry but I do know that they have experts in the jewelry departments who will discuss the specifics of the item. On a few occasions, certain defects were pointed out to me, such as an eternity band where all the stones were not well matched and a sapphire and diamond ring where a very large center stone sapphire was not of the best color although it looked great to me.

I would imagine that Skinner offers the same service. If you do not have an account there with all your financial credentials on file I doubt that they will let you bid because they have no assurance that you are a serious bidder. If you do not already have an account at Skinner, I would call and find out how to open one before the sale. Also bidding on the phone can be very stressful on such an expensive item unless you are used to doing this. The bidding goes very fast and you do not have a moment to think.

Some galleries will give you a representative who will bid for you from the floor until you reach your maximum bid.There is no extra charge for this service. As to getting someone to come up and appraise it for you, if it is a real bargain he may want to buy it himself or sell you something he has so you would have to be careful of whom you engage.

Also, at all the sales I have attended, they have a special section for jewelers who have items they are interested in pulled for them for close examination. Even if the estimate is low, often items go for far more than their estimates. Our experience with auction galleries is mainly with antique furniture and silver--we are collectors of both--but I am certain that the same pertains to jewelry. Dealers from all over the country come to these sales and it is rare that you get a bargain but on some occasions we have. But this seems to be a heavily advertised sale and a rather low estimate for a desirable item. It will probably get a lot of interest.

If you decide to go ahead with it, good luck but I would be wary of something I have not seen and if by chance it does go for a price below wholesale, you can be sure that a jeweler will grab it up.

I do not know about the policy of having it shipped out of town to save sales tax. I am not sure that they would ship to any but your own address. Auction galleries and some of the top jewelry dealers in Manhattan have gotten caught doing this for celebrities and have paid heavy fines. I believe it is illegal particularly if they knowingly do this.
Hi Solange,

Thank you so much for your detailed reply and suggestions.

That''s an excellent point about having an account. I was surprised when I registed with them and when I spoke to someone (not the jewellery dept) that no-one there asked me to open an a/c or provide and bank reference (like Christie''s does). I will call them again and ask about this specifically. I do not wish to miss out on this just because I''ve overlooked this, so many thanks.

I will get in touch with one of the gentleman Garry suggested for an appraisal.

I have tried to get in touch with Skinner, the jewellery dept but couldn''t get hold of them. They called me back but missed me too. I will continue to try and ask them specific details about the condition.

You make another excellent point about how "fast and furious" auctions are. I have never personally attended an auction for jewellery - only for real estate, but can imagine how "fast and furious" it can be and I might very well miss out or conversely end up over-bidding if I get carried away, which I might very well do. As for the representative who can bid on one''s behalf, I think Skinner does provide this. I think what you do is put in a multiple bid form. But my concern is that if you give them multiple bid (albeit subject to a ceiling), would they not be inclined to keep bidding on your behalf, thus "egging on" other bidders, which would in turn drive up the final price?

You make another excellent point abt buying something "sight unseen", to speak. I know I''ve not seen it - which is something I normally insist on before buying anything, let alone something of this magnitude. But I do not have an opportunity to go to Boston prior to the sale. Could I not trust the judgement of an indpendent appraiser and the assessment (hopefully honest) of the Skinner jewellery person? I''ve seen various Lucida''s many many times in Singapore and if an appraiser comes back saying there is nothing wrong with the condition, wouldn''t that be sufficient? I''d be interested in hearing about any concerns you may have about buying something like this that you'';ve not seen.

Re the shipping, if it is illegal, I would absolutely NOT do it. When I asked about shipping to S''pore, the Skinner person said that shipping to an international address is not insured (something about anything above $500 or something ridiculously low like that is not insured). They also said that a 3rd party does the international shipping, not themselves. When I mentioned that we''ll be visiting DH''s family in Chicago later on, they said they''d be more than happy to ship to Chicago to his mom''s address. I will definitely probe further to make sure this is all legitimate. If not, i will certainly not do it. I wonder though if they have a sales tax refund, since we don''t live in the US, and I have a British passport, as I know in the UK or S''pore, tourists can claim for a VAT or GST refund if they carry a non-UK or non-S''pore passport respectively.

Thanks again, Solange.
 

Phoenix

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Date: 9/9/2007 4:04:45 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
I cant help much, but here is a link to appraisers in MA https://www.pricescope.com/appraisers_MA.aspx
That is the section upper right - under resourses tab.

Marty and also Michael Cowing, who posts here and is not listed are I know are both in boston.
Thanks so much, Garry. I will get in touch with these gentlemen.
 

solange

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I wish you the best of luck whatever you decide to do. Skinner has a good reputation but there are no guarantees as to how a rep will bid for you. You can also have a bid placed in the book in which case the auctioneer will bid for you. Sometimes this works better because the auctioneer knows where the bids are going.
Neither way is perfect nor are you guaranteed to get the best price. However, I will not bid on the phone myself because it goes too quickly and I get overwhelmed. My husband does it when we bid on the phone.
Sometimes we have been able to get information over the phone as to whether the estimate is realistic but this is usually from someone we know at the gallery.
You are fortunate to have so many options in your budget and I am sure no matter what you do, you will wind up with a gorgeous ring. I am sure the recommended appraisers would be reliable since they are not in the business of selling jewelry.
 

solange

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Jut wondering as to how you made out with Skinners. Were they able to give you the info you require to make a purchase unseen by you?
I wish you luck whatever you decide to do and am looking forward to the pictures no matter which ring you pick.
With your budget you will have a large choice if Skinner does not work out to your satisfaction.
 

elmo

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Marty Haske looked at something for me there a few years ago - highly recommended. I think he''s spending more time with the engineering / consulting part of his business now though so he may or may not be able to get over there for you on a specific date. That''s a lot of money to spend on a piece without seeing it yourself! Good luck.
 

Phoenix

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Date: 9/9/2007 11:52:27 AM
Author: erica k
the auction is on ebay, too. the seller''s name is ''skinnerinc.''

too bad the photo isn''t very good. a hand shot would be helpful in visualizing the scale. i saw a few lucidas in the 3-4 carat range, and they are massive! i can''t even imagine what a 4.79 would look like.

good luck with your upgrade search!
Hi Erica,

I can''t seem to find it on eBay. Could you possibly help to direct me? Thanks.
 

mrssalvo

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nevermind...DS found it...thanks DS...
 

Phoenix

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Date: 9/9/2007 12:36:19 PM
Author: solange
I wish you the best of luck whatever you decide to do. Skinner has a good reputation but there are no guarantees as to how a rep will bid for you. You can also have a bid placed in the book in which case the auctioneer will bid for you. Sometimes this works better because the auctioneer knows where the bids are going.
Neither way is perfect nor are you guaranteed to get the best price. However, I will not bid on the phone myself because it goes too quickly and I get overwhelmed. My husband does it when we bid on the phone.
Sometimes we have been able to get information over the phone as to whether the estimate is realistic but this is usually from someone we know at the gallery.
You are fortunate to have so many options in your budget and I am sure no matter what you do, you will wind up with a gorgeous ring. I am sure the recommended appraisers would be reliable since they are not in the business of selling jewelry.
Hi Solange,

I am going to place a multiple bid form with Skinner. Spoke to them yesterday and they said that the rep will try and bid as low as possible, but who knows?

As for other logistical details, I''ve more or less sorted them out, with the exception of an independent appraisal which I am going to try and arrange for asap. The Skinner person says that the conndition of this ring is "excellent", no chip nor scratches, only that the setting itself could do with some polishing, but again who knows?

I must say I am very nervous about bidding for something sight unseen....keeping my fingers crossed!
 

Phoenix

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Date: 9/10/2007 5:17:39 PM
Author: elmo
Marty Haske looked at something for me there a few years ago - highly recommended. I think he's spending more time with the engineering / consulting part of his business now though so he may or may not be able to get over there for you on a specific date. That's a lot of money to spend on a piece without seeing it yourself! Good luck.
Thanks, Elmo.
 

decodelighted

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Mssalvo ... did you see this??? You''re about a 4 1/2 right???
 

diamondseeker2006

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You''re welcome! The ring looks outstanding! I think it is a terrific opportunity to get a significant Tiffany piece at a nice price! Good luck!
 

mrssalvo

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Date: 9/11/2007 10:32:52 PM
Author: decodelighted
Mssalvo ... did you see this??? You''re about a 4 1/2 right???

I didn''t see that one deco..i''m a 3 1/2 / 4 but it looks like it could be sized down a bit....hmmmmm...
 

Phoenix

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Date: 9/11/2007 10:38:56 PM
Author: mrssalvo


Date: 9/11/2007 10:32:52 PM
Author: decodelighted
Mssalvo ... did you see this??? You're about a 4 1/2 right???

I didn't see that one deco..i'm a 3 1/2 / 4 but it looks like it could be sized down a bit....hmmmmm...
That's very pretty!

My DH made me SWEAR that after this purchase, there will be no more - no diamonds, no gold, no gemstones, nothing!! not even a dime on anything!
7.gif
 

BigDiamonds

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Good luck and please report back!

I looked through that catalogue the other day and I''m curious about how accurate those estimates are. A few seemed really low, but I have no idea what price diamonds get at auction compared to buying new.
 

Skippy123

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erica k

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boy, you all sure are fast!

skippy--that asscher with half-moon and baguette cut side stones is beyond amazing! i like that the profits are going to a charitable organization, but that''s a hefty price tag!

can''t wait to hear how the auction goes. i wish i were back home in boston so i could go to the preview.
 

fleur-de-lis

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I know I''m one of the lone pear-lovers on here, but you gotta respect the D IF 4 carat+ wonder by Harry Winston they have on auction... can someone send my fiance an anonymous link on my behalf?
31.gif


http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/2675-Platinum-and-Diamond-Solitaire-Harry-Winston-pr_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28221QQihZ009QQitemZ190150542674QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Thanks for posting the link, DS, there''s some GREAT eyecandy up for auction!

Lien, if you can make it work, I think that Lucida is one amazing rock!
 

mrssalvo

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and that HW is just my size......
 

diamondseeker2006

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Yes, it is some major eye-candy alright! But it goes to show, it would be crazy to buy those pieces new.

MrsS...hey, that''ll solve all your problems!
36.gif
 

solange

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Lien,
If you have established a good rapport with the rep from Skinner,he/she may be able to tell you, when it is closer to the date of the sale, whether your bid is realistic. You can also, at most galleries, give permission to the person who is bidding for you to go up one jump in price against a competitive bidder. You might not want to lose it by a few thousand dollars. If you do this, be sure you ascertain what the bidding increments are before you give permission to do this.
Although it would be unethical for the rep to tell you what the actual bids in the book are, it is to the gallery's advantage to give you an idea of whether your bid is in the ball park. If you are aware that the bidding is going far higher than you want to spend, it might not pay to go to the expense of sending up an appraiser.
Also, keeping in touch with the rep will give assurance that you are a serous bidder ready to go ahead with an expensive purchase and are a good potential client for the future.
The ring sounds great and I do not think a gallery like Skinner would lie about condition.
 

Phoenix

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Date: 9/11/2007 11:06:54 PM
Author: Skippy123
Lien,
Did you see the 5 carat asscher here http://www.skinnerinc.com/pdf/442_5.pdf?thisID=17298 It is item no. 662. It is an E color VVS1; and dang gorgeous. Not sure if you saw it.
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27.gif
Did I see it, ha ha?! That''s a joke, right, Skippy?!
9.gif


The HW, the Asscher and the Lucida are the first three that caught my eyes!! I am salivating as I type this, LOL!
 

Phoenix

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Date: 9/12/2007 4:15:07 PM
Author: fleur-de-lis
I know I''m one of the lone pear-lovers on here, but you gotta respect the D IF 4 carat+ wonder by Harry Winston they have on auction... can someone send my fiance an anonymous link on my behalf?
31.gif


http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/2675-Platinum-and-Diamond-Solitaire-Harry-Winston-pr_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28221QQihZ009QQitemZ190150542674QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Thanks for posting the link, DS, there''s some GREAT eyecandy up for auction!

Lien, if you can make it work, I think that Lucida is one amazing rock!
That HW is to die for!!
30.gif
30.gif


I hope I get it, fleur-de-lis!
36.gif
 
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