USE THIS ONE! Ask Dad, Mom, both parents or neither?

[sumi]

I think my main problem with this whole topic is that everyone is concentrating so much on asking the future-bride's family. Well, if it's simply a matter of common courtesy, then it should follow that BOTH sets of parents should be consulted.

There's going to be a new member in both the future-groom's family and the future-bride's family. If it really is about starting off on the right foot for a new family member, why would only one family (the future-bride's) be consulted?

 

[tomatoe]

----------------
On 4/18/2004 3:23:27 PM sparklyandsquare
wrote:

I have to run out the door in a minute but wanted to respond to Tomatoe's post:

"I was always under the impression that this was a Western tradition that showed respect to the girl's parents."

In fact, the tradition was not about being repectful but about negotiating a contract. I've included this excerpt from www.digitalhistory.uh.edu:----------------

Thank you so much for addressing this point. It was actually the same with the Chinese culture; they used to pre-arrange marriages for their children from even before the children where born. Often times, pretty girls from poor families were sold to rich families to become just one of the many mistresses to the master of the house.

 

[lislaz]

I think while I am mostly a traditional person, I do not fully agree with the idea of asking for the parents' permission. To each his own, of course. In my own case, I'd like it if my boyfriend spoke to my parents about our future plans, not necessarily asking them for a blessing. I suppose it's a case to case basis and everyone's situation is different. I don't live in the same country as my parents do so it's made communication different.

They don't get to see me (and the bf) as often as we would all like. So conversations between them and my bf are few and far between. The "asking for their blessing" conversation would be a nice thing between my parents and my bf.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/18/2004 4:21:05 PM ChooChoo wrote:

I decide that he is going to enter my family. I don't feel that I need my parents' consent to give him that permission. Just as many other ladies pointed out, my kids are also going to enter the family, and I would certainly hope that my husband wouldn't ask my parents whether it's appropriate for us to have them. Some decisions are just between two people, and I believe that marriage should be one of them.

-

GEEZ, It's not PERMISSION. It is a courtesy & good manners. PERIOD - even if the parents are against it. But then, my husband still opens doors for me. I don't see anything sexist about it. I certainly know I can open my own door. Also, I will open/hold the door for elderly women (gently for an elderly man), someone in a wheel chair, a women/men holding a baby or pushing a strooler. The gesture has never been unwelcome. It's plain common courtsey - simple gestures of someone caring about the other person. It's not all about you (in the collective). A focus all too prevelant in today's world.

Would you just up and get pregnant (on purpose) before discussing it with your husband? The children are an offshoot of the family. Children are part of *your* (husband & wife)family. They are a part, by blood, of the extended family. The analogy has nothing to do with my argument. But, I would tell my parents if we were pregnant. It's common courtesy for them to know what to expect.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/18/2004 6:37:01 PM sumi wrote:

I think my main problem with this whole topic is that everyone is concentrating so much on asking the future-bride's family. Well, if it's simply a matter of common courtesy, then it should follow that BOTH sets of parents should be consulted.

There's going to be a new member in both the future-groom's family and the future-bride's family. If it really is about starting off on the right foot for a new family member, why would only one family (the future-bride's) be consulted?----------------

I knew someone would bring this spin up. And, there is some validity in it. Truth be, for the most part, the son is going to be more a part of the wife's family then the wife will be part of the husband's family. I'm sure there are the exceptions; but, I don't know of any (20 years into marriage).

Again, common courtesy. Prior to our becoming engaged, my family met my husband's family. My husband spoke to his mother (father deceased) prior to the engagement. I thought it was a good idea.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/19/2004 1:37:51 AM fleece wrote:

I think while I am mostly a traditional person, I do not fully agree with the idea of asking for the parents' permission. To each his own, of course. In my own case, I'd like it if my boyfriend spoke to my parents about our future plans, not necessarily asking them for a blessing. ---

How many times do I have to say "the talk" is not about asking PERMISSION. Sure, one would want the parents to bless the marriage; but, one is not ASKING for anything.

All I'm on board with is the common courtesy (and, yes, tradition) for the future son-in-law to give a head's up to the parents. That's it.

And to issue of the marriage contracts of 17c New England. It wasn't to enslave a women. It was PRACTICAL. There was a simple issue of SURVIVAL, even if it be of *family tree*. And, ya know what - I sure would have loved to negotiate a contract that my husband came with some land. I'm sure he would have loved for me to bring a dowery.

I asked my husband about this. He said, without prompting, it's just a courtesy. If my dad said it wasn't a good idea, he'd would have said thank you for your honest comments. That's it. He still would have married me.

Edited to add: my husband was quite disappointed that he could have negotiated a dowery.

 

[Nicrez]

You know, some cultures, like Asian cultures actually have dowries paid to the WOMEN"S side, or so my Chinese friend told me. Her parents didn't ask her fiance for anything, as it is modern times, but he still asked, and even asked their permision before proposing to her, and they are both 29 yrs old.

As I see it, everyone does what they feel comfortable with, but in the end, I was raised to believe that out of respect to the parents who raised their daughters to be good people, you generally like to tell them "hey, I am planning on asking, I wanted to let you know, and perhaps if you can offer your blessing or advice, i would gladly listen."

It's not offensive, because at this point, the woman SHOULD know it's sort of coming (maybe not the DAY, but generally), and if having her parents involved in her life is offensive, then her fiance should know that, and most likely their lack of involvement is evident in their relationship already...

Just like words, actions are meant according to what we give them meaning to be. If a blessing is considered archaic and rude, then so is the word "fudge" to some people, as is "using a material item to base a promise for life, as is a woman chosing her ring style, shape, etc...

We all choose what we assign deeper meaning, and I for one will never find offense with anyone willing to include and show their resepct and defference to anyone who spent so much time, energy effort, love and money to raise the person I LOVE and want to spend the rest of my life with. It IS greatly in part due to them, that my fiance is who he is.

Had I proposed to my guy, I would have asked his parents for a blessing, and I am a girl. To me, it's a respect and a courtesy I would one day LOVE to see in the person who marries my daughter or son, whomever does the asking!

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/19/2004 12:49:30 PM Nicrez wrote:

It's not offensive, because at this point, the woman SHOULD know it's sort of coming (maybe not the DAY, but generally), --

Which is an interesting point. I wonder how many people are asked out of the blue. Don't most discuss their relationship course?

 

[Nicrez]

I personally discussed with my fiance that we needed more time to work out the "issues' of family (mine and his), children, investing, shared expenses, How to raise our children, where to live...

We ended up talking about all that BEFORE he popped the question, and we decided to get married in 2006 so we could work all that out better before we "took the plunge forever". As I see it, if we didn't talk about all that, I would have never said yes. Honestly. Also we lived together first, to get a feel for joining our lives and habits. Hey, we are still working out the kinks on who does dishes, and laundry and when...

But my friend never discussed such things with her fiance and said yes, because she desperately wanted to marry and was all wrapped up in the moment of his question. All the wedding momentum carried them easily through the process... She asked me a few weeks before she walked down the aisle if she should do it, and that she had doubts, but the "whole thing was already in progress and paid for." Now she is divorced a year later. I just didn't want that to be us.

 

[lislaz]

How many times do I have to say 'the talk' is not about asking PERMISSION. Sure, one would want the parents to bless the marriage; but, one is not ASKING for anything.

I respect your opinion and was of course only responding to the original post which gave the options of "asking for permission/blessing." Everything is a case to case basis, there is no one right answer for anyone and I hope that no matter how the couple ends up there...a happy ending is what we all strive for.

At least that's how I'm seeing it for me!

And what was that about a dowry? heeheehee...

 

[sparklyandsquare]

Fire&Ice-

First, I will agree with your earlier comment that we probably won't agree on any of this. But I'm frustrating by the fact that while I understand why some people are completely comfortable with this tradition and would expect their b.f. to follow it, you make no effort to accept that some people choose not to further certain traditions they feel have sexist or racist roots/symbolism.

You act as though we should just "suck it up"--that somehow it's okay that a guy follow this tradition because the parents expect it...even if it makes his g.f. uncomfortable. If he wants to marry this woman, his concern should be that the two of them are on the same page, not doing things he knows might upset her to "earn points" with the parents. You may think it's about respect and maybe it is: in order to "give respect" to the parents he's disrespecting his g.f.'s feelings. Which is more important?

Several times you mention that it's not "all about you." Maybe not, but it *is* 99% about you and your fiancee--not the parents. Of the couples I know that have any type of problems with their family/in-laws, it seems the family being *too* close and intruding on the husband/wife relationship is much more prevalent than families not approving of the spouse. I know couples that have parents who drop by anytime and pretty much just walk into the house. Couples where the parents feel they can change wedding plans (whether or not they're paying for the wedding).

One couple I know started out like this...he asked the father because it was polite. They let the parents stop by whenever because they're family and it would be rude to tell them to call first--besides it didn't seem like *that* big a deal. Now the (grand)parents are telling the couples' kids things about religion that the couple doesn't believe. This is obviously not okay & of course they have to address it. But if they had established some boundaries from the get-go, I don't think it would have gotten to this point.

Re: analogies
------------------------------------
Would you just up and get pregnant (on purpose) before discussing it with your husband?  The children are an offshoot of the family.  Children are part of *your* (husband & wife)family.  They are a part, by blood, of the extended family. The analogy has nothing to do with my argument.  But, I would tell my parents if we were pregnant.  It's common courtesy for them to know what to expect. 
------------------------------------
In this example you're getting pregnant first and telling your parents *after* the fact...exactly what you say you shouldn't do when deciding to get married. You say the analogy has nothing to do with your argument, but I don't understand the difference. How is deciding to have a baby any more or less "life-changing" than deciding to get married. And if the man talking to the women's father about getting married *before* talking to her is just good communication, why wouldn't it be "good communication" for the husband to talk to the father-in-law before deciding with the woman to have children? Most couples consider this a personal decision that they make together and then inform their family of. I expect the same process when my b.f. and I get engaged.
And as analogies go: you imply that not asking your parents before getting engaged is the same as not talking to your husband before getting pregnant because both are "bringing someone into the family." As an adult, my parents are in no way *responsible* for me (or a husband i would bring into the family). A husband and wife *are* equally responsible for a child brought into the relationship, so of course purposefully getting pregnant without asking your husband is a MUCH bigger deal and incredibly disrespectful.

Anyhow, enough of this rant...I generally can only check the boards once a day so I end up responding to all the issues at once.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/20/2004 1:23:09 AM sparklyandsquare wrote:

Fire&Ice-

------------------------------------
How is deciding to have a baby any more or less 'life-changing' than deciding to get married.

Having a baby is *way* way* more life changing. It's not in the same league - not even close. That maybe the disconnect as to why I do not see the analogy

Just as you feel that I think one should suck it up. I feel like you are trying to change my viewpoint that I don't see it as sexist. I don't. That's my opinion. Just because you think it is, doesn't mean I have to acknowledge it as fact.

In the end, if a man doesn't know his wife to be enough to know whether it's appropriate or not, then they should get to know each other a little more.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/20/2004 12:10:52 AM fleece wrote:

How many times do I have to say 'the talk' is not about asking PERMISSION. Sure, one would want the parents to bless the marriage; but, one is not ASKING for anything.

I respect your opinion and was of course only responding to the original post which gave the options of 'asking for permission/blessing.' Everything is a case to case basis, there is no one right answer for anyone and I hope that no matter how the couple ends up there...a happy ending is what we all strive for.

At least that's how I'm seeing it for me!

And what was that about a dowry? heeheehee...
----------------

Fleece, I didn't mean to single you out. It's just that the anti-talk people always call it "asking for permission".

And, yes, you are right. My husband is still waiting for his dowry.

 

[Nicrez]

----------------
On 4/20/2004 1:23:09 AM sparklyandsquare wrote:

you make no effort to accept that some people choose not to further certain traditions they feel have sexist or racist roots/symbolism.

Just want to add that each person chooses how to interpret things, just as we all assign different levels of comfort using some words, like "stupid" or "8itch". I personally don't like the word stupid. I was taught that is the height of rudeness and meanness to use it, but my friend uses that to refer to everything, including waiting in line, and even asking questions. At the use of the word, I get offended, she never does. We assign our own meanings to things all the time. As such, I find this a tradition and not a slavery/sexist thing. My same friend finds opening doors for her sexist. I find her "stupid".

You act as though we should just 'suck it up'--that somehow it's okay that a guy follow this tradition because the parents expect it...even if it makes his g.f. uncomfortable. If he wants to marry this woman, his concern should be that the two of them are on the same page, not doing things he knows might upset her to 'earn points' with the parents. You may think it's about respect and maybe it is: in order to 'give respect' to the parents he's disrespecting his g.f.'s feelings. Which is more important?

I don't think anyone says that this should be done at the expense of the relationship. Obviously, he is not marrying HER FAMILY, but her. Perfect example is the fact that my family wouldn't give their blessing, so we did it anyway, although my fiance WANTED to get the blessing, as he was always taught. And, he didn't even ask me for a dowry, much less my parents!

Several times you mention that it's not 'all about you.' Maybe not, but it *is* 99% about you and your fiancee--not the parents. Of the couples I know that have any type of problems with their family/in-laws, it seems the family being *too* close and intruding on the husband/wife relationship is much more prevalent than families not approving of the spouse. I know couples that have parents who drop by anytime and pretty much just walk into the house. Couples where the parents feel they can change wedding plans (whether or not they're paying for the wedding).

And for most people who ARE close to their family. It Isn't about you, not even 99%. No one lives in a vaccuum. Parents, children, neightbors, friends, cowrokers all play a part in our lives. Like introducing yourselves to your neighbors when you are new and just moved in, is a similar sort of thing. you don't NEED to, it just depends on your intended level of interaction with those around you and your willingness to communicate. Parents, however, are MUCH more important and substanial in our lives than most neighbors...and as such I think warrant that respect and effort.

One couple I know started out like this...he asked the father because it was polite. They let the parents stop by whenever because they're family and it would be rude to tell them to call first--besides it didn't seem like *that* big a deal. Now the (grand)parents are telling the couples' kids things about religion that the couple doesn't believe. This is obviously not okay & of course they have to address it. But if they had established some boundaries from the get-go, I don't think it would have gotten to this point.

This example right here is only about someone who doesn't know how to set boundaries. Like I said, my brother never asked ANYONE for ideas, permission to marry. Not even my dad, who happens to be the world's biggest butt-in-ski (sp?). Yet, even without the blessing from either parents, they still managed to tell them how to live their life. My brother promptly put his foot down, and set barriers that my parents now respect. It's about knowing your limits, COMMUNICATING them, and not letting it get personal. Parents will always be on autopilot, when it comes to parenting. They need to be reminded there are new pilots at the wheel. And both hubby and wife need to have the SAME stance on that, or issues happen. This has NOTHING to do with a blessing, but coincidence.

I think most people have the tendancy to make things greater than they are. This is not a talk that will kill your independance, nor will it throw you back into the slavery/dowry era. It is only a communication tool for those who will soon be in your lives, and also shows them that you respect their opinions and beliefs for having raised the person you are marrying. If you don't respect them or how they raised your loved one, you don't need a blessing. Sadly, there are bad parents out there, and we don't always need a blessing. Hopefully, we appreciate a parent's life long job, and can accurately express that in a time when it's most joyful and exciting. But it IS a case-by-case issue, I just don't want this labeled as sexist, like opening doors and pulling out chairs. Manners are not sexist.

----------------

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/20/2004 1:23:09 AM sparklyandsquare wrote:

Fire&Ice-

you make no effort to accept that some people choose not to further certain traditions they feel have sexist or racist roots/symbolism.

--

I wrote quite a bit that was erased. I am PS software challenged. But, I agree with everything Nicrez say & in a more eloquent way then I expessed.

But, I have to ask, why do I have to accept that I find this sexist? I don't. And, racist? Where is that argument?

And, life is just that. It's never about you or your relationship 99%. One has to be true to oneself; but, I've learned through 20 years of marriage that I learn to pick my battles - be it with my spouse, parents, friends, siblings - any relationship.

 

[sparklyandsquare]

-----
And, racist? Where is that argument?

-----
I'm not making any argument that this specific tradition is racist. I was saying that people choose to abandon many things that were once "tradition" or "good manners" because they no longer fit into modern concepts of equality, whether it be gender-based equality, race-based equality, etc. This would obviously be a tradition I believe doesn't fit into my life based on my ideals of gender-based equality, not race.

 

[sumi]

----------------
On 4/20/2004 11:16:05 AM fire&ice wrote:

----------------


But, I have to ask, why do I have to accept that I find this sexist? I don't. And, racist? Where is that argument?

----------------

I think sparklysquare was asking that you understand how she feels about this issue. She's not asking you to agree with her, but to understand that not everyone shares your same thoughts. I got the impression that she was just asking that you respect her point of view.


There is no ONE right answer. We all have to do what is right for us and our own situations. We're not going to change each other's minds, but we should be able understand that we don't have to all share the same values.

 

[sparklyandsquare]

__________
I think sparklysquare was asking that you understand how she feels about this issue. She's not asking you to agree with her, but to understand that not everyone shares your same thoughts. I got the impression that she was just asking that you respect her point of view.
__________

Exactly. I'm not trying to get anyone to change their mind and think it's sexist. I'm not trying to get a couple that WANTS to follow the tradition not to do so. All I'm asking is that Fire&Ice respect that fact that some people do not want to follow the tradition for various reasons. If there *weren't* historical evidence of this tradition being linked with gender inequality, I could understand her saying she can't understand how people think this is sexist. But whether she chooses to care how the practice started, history does matter to some people and is a valid reason for some couples not to follow the tradition.

Also please do not assume that couples who do not follow this tradition 1) hate their family 2) haven't been taught manners 3) don't care about anyone but themselves. To me, words MEAN something and you should not take part in a tradition you don't believe in. For instance, in wedding ceremonies some women say they will "love, honor and obey" their husband. For me, that's unthinkable. Nothing wrong with them, nothing wrong with me...just different strokes for different folks.

 

[Nicrez]

Fair enough. I don't make a judgement on what you do, say or won't do or say. Your life. Enjoy it.

I wanted to explain how others may see this tradition, not just for you, but for the several people who pop this post up and think, "is it really sexist? Should I still do it?"

Me, I WILL "love honor and obey" my hubby, as he will "love honor and obey" me...

It's a slight subjugation, and in my opinion, there MUST be some on both parts. He subjugated his entire finances to me, as a result of being so fair minded (and finally realizing I tend to be tighter with money than he is) but in exchange I cook for him, as he requested. And let me tell you I HATE cooking and I can't...

But those are the compromises we all make. We love, we honor, and yes, we obey. I was once told a TRUE democary is just as theoretical as a Marxian government. I agree. You can't always make all decision together. Never happens. Big ones, yes, but the little ones you learn to just "obey". Like what to eat, when to take a vacation, how to discipline a child, etc. Sometimes one person leads, and sometimes the other one does. Reaching that healthy balance is key.

If only the woman said those words, I would be

, BUT he says them too, and it's good to know when I am paying with his checkbook!

 

[sumi]

----------------
On 4/20/2004 2:57:11 PM Nicrez wrote:

Fair enough. I don't make a judgement on what you do, say or won't do or say. Your life. Enjoy it.

I wanted to explain how others may see this tradition, not just for you, but for the several people who pop this post up and think, 'is it really sexist? Should I still do it?'

Me, I WILL 'love honor and obey' my hubby, as he will 'love honor and obey' me...

It's a slight subjugation, and in my opinion, there MUST be some on both parts. He subjugated his entire finances to me, as a result of being so fair minded (and finally realizing I tend to be tighter with money than he is) but in exchange I cook for him, as he requested. And let me tell you I HATE cooking and I can't...

But those are the compromises we all make. We love, we honor, and yes, we obey. I was once told a TRUE democary is just as theoretical as a Marxian government. I agree. You can't always make all decision together. Never happens. Big ones, yes, but the little ones you learn to just 'obey'. Like what to eat, when to take a vacation, how to discipline a child, etc. Sometimes one person leads, and sometimes the other one does. Reaching that healthy balance is key.

If only the woman said those words, I would be

, BUT he says them too, and it's good to know when I am paying with his checkbook!

----------------

Obviously, any relationship is about give/take and compromise. Both parties need to realize that if they are going to have a successful relationship. However, I wouldn't want to take on certain responsibilities JUST BECAUSE of my gender. My husband and I are better at different things. Our schedules are also different. We've divided our chores and responsibilites based on talents and schedules.




I think the last few posts were mostly directed at F&I and asking that she realize that not everyone will share her values. I totally disagree with F&I, but I totally understand where she is coming from. I'm not going to knock her for holding different values than me. I'm also not going to refuse to realize that there are two sides to every coin. I'm not sure if that's even where F&I is coming from at all. For a long time, F&I was the only person who approved of consulting with the parents. I'm glad that she shared her point of view. If this thread were ALL one sided, then it would not have been very interesting at all. I think it's far more interesting that both sides are laid out there, and everyone can weigh each side as they see fit.

 

[sparklyandsquare]

If only the woman said those words, I would be , BUT he says them too
-----

actually, several fundamentalist denominations encourage *only* women to make this vow because they believe the Bible proscribes that women submit to/obey their husbands. the husband loves and honors, but does not "obey." That's what I was talking about.

 

[Nicrez]

Not to be contradictory, but I have been to over 13+ weddings so far. Some seriously religious and traditional, and not one had different words for the man and woman. I have also never heard of it...

But if you know who does so that, let me know, I'll make sure NOT to convert to THAT religion.

But whose to say that in parts all over the world there is not misogynistic tones in a few ceremonies and practices, like those of women being mutilated for protection of virginity (and supposed fidelity) in some tribal nations still... so I suppose anything is possible...

Still with F&I on picking battles. Sometimes being too PC takes the tradition and the realness out of things. It becomes a litany of words that become so ambiguous and general no one understands meaning, because it was thrown away to appease the masses... (ok, I am diverging, but it's a pet peeve...)

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 4/20/2004 2:34:44 PM sparklyandsquare wrote:

__________
Exactly. I'm not trying to get anyone to change their mind and think it's sexist. I'm not trying to get a couple that WANTS to follow the tradition not to do so. All I'm asking is that Fire&Ice respect that fact that some people do not want to follow the tradition for various reasons. If there *weren't* historical evidence of this tradition being linked with gender inequality, I could understand her saying she can't understand how people think this is sexist. But whether she chooses to care how the practice started, history does matter to some people and is a valid reason for some couples not to follow the tradition.

Also please do not assume that couples who do not follow this tradition 1) hate their family 2) haven't been taught manners 3) don't care about anyone but themselves. To me, words MEAN something and you should not take part in a tradition you don't believe in. For instance, in wedding ceremonies some women say they will 'love, honor and obey' their husband. For me, that's unthinkable. Nothing wrong with them, nothing wrong with me...just different strokes for different folks.----------------

Well, just as you state that "traditions/laws/customs" change. I believe that the talk has evolved into what it is today. You guys are getting married. Marriage certainly isn't what it was back a few centuries; yet, you are choosing to participate. That is my point. I look to the past only for guidance to the future. I don't live it.

And, I never said I didn't respect someone's choice not to do it. I just view it in a completely different light. Funny, it was me who took the most heat. I was pretty much the sole dissenter. And, I do feel pretty strongly about the issue. I think it is a nice way of starting married life. To state that if you don't do it- you hate your family....blah blah blah. Is a tad mellow dramatic.

But, just as I think it's a nice touch, I think voicing your opinion against it is also important. And, I really meant what I said. If you don't have a vibe one way or the other, then I think the couple should get to know each other a little better.

Believe it or not, many consider me to be a feminist. We don't have children, even with society viewing us a freaks.

I have owned my own successful business for over 15 years. I've been predujiced against many a time. Not only did I work as a Project Manager for a construction company; I help my husband in his business on a pretty regular basis. That business is soooooooo male dominated. I really mean it when I say pick your battles on ways to combat sexism. Dissing a simple gesture, while may seem noble, isn't my style. It's way too simplified. Trying to find a way to gain respect in a male dominated field is more challenging to me.....and really helping the next women on the job site.

If you feel that strongly about it, don't do it. But, me, I'd get more riled about having a country club membership only in the *husband's* name.

Let's just say that isn't in the bylaws anymore.

To me, there was *no* reason for that. It was a battle worth picking. I do see benefits of talking with the parents.

 

[sparklyandsquare]

-------
Some seriously religious and traditional, and not one had different words for the man and woman. 
-------
Different denominations/branches of the Christian church consider different things "seriously religious." If you've been to a very religious Catholic wedding, it is possible/likely that is was followed with a reception where alcohol was served and there was dancing. This would be considered *sinful* in the area I grew up...mostly Mennonites, Church of the Brethren, etc. I was never to a wedding that had alcohol or dancing until I was an adult.

Regarding which denominations practice the separate vows for husband/wife:

I went to Mennonite school as a kid and was taught they believe the hierarchy proscribed in the Bible is:
God->Husband->Wife->Children. The man is the head of the household and his decisions override those of wife and children. Therefore, many members of the Mennonite church and related denominations use the separate vows.

Also, the Southern Baptists passed this at their 141st annual Southern Baptist Convention.

The text of the "18th Article of the Baptist Faith and Message":

"The husband and wife are of equal worth before God, since both are created in God's image. The marriage relationship models the way God relates to his people. A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect, and to lead his family. A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation."

Although they are of "equal worth before God" they have separate, gender-based roles in the relationship...
Husband is to Wife
as Leader is to Follower
as God is to Church.

Based on this, many Southern Baptists and fundamentalists that share this view on the separate roles husbands and wives should play in marriage also use the separate vows.

Nicrez-Hope this helps in your search for religions that may not be for you!

 

[Nicrez]

The weddings have been Hindu, Christian, Baptist, Jewish and a large majority Catholic. no Mennonite. Even the Baptist one had the same vows, but drinking DID not occur. Plus, most wedding with drinking usually were the ones that didn't have a church service, but more a wedding at the reception hall or the catering place. The two southern weddings were quite religious...

The others, well mostly my family and closer friends who obviously are not religious enough to deem drinking and danceing "unholy"...

Actually, that may have been written in my father's family's credo...

Again, many religions will demand a certain subjugation, and if the person believes in that, then what wrong is there? My mother believes that whatever my father says should happen. She's VERY Roman Catholic, and my grandmother also believes the man is the head of the family and what he says goes, even if he's wrong. Point blank. But my grandmother was a tough bird in her day, and did some pretty feminist things, so a person can have a religious and cultural slant as well as a healthy dose of human equality. My mom was a career woman (accountant) who made more than her former school mates (male) and supported herself very very well until she married my dad at 29. She puts her foot down when she has to, but basically, knowing old fashioned men, they are more bark than bite, and as F&I states, it's best to choose you battles. She's a smart cookie!

My only point here is that although there are strict rules in every religion, don't think that these rules are adhered to "religiously". They are a guideline, and as most of these rules are written for such religions, we consciously alter them in places to suit our changing needs.

Also, I wonder how many weddings have seperate wording for each person. Did they at a Mennonite wedding? You didn't mention. The Baptist wedding vows where the same, just had more bible readings than most...(and the singing was DEFINATELY better!

)

 

[antigoon]

May I be so bold as to summarize?

You may be "asking permission", or you may be "asking for their blessing". The difference being that in the latter case, you're going to do it anyway, but as a matter of courtesy, you're going to let them in on it first. This is an important distinction.

Some might say that asking permission/blessing is

• An old and worthwhile tradition.
• An outdated (and offensive) tradition that should be abolished.
• An outdated tradition that is quaint because it is so outdated, so it should be perpetuated.

You may or may not want to talk to your fiancee to be's parents. This will depened on the beliefs/backgrounds of three people: her, you, and her parents.

So how does a guy know what to do? You want to marry the gal, right? you know her so well you want to spend the rest of your life with her right? So let's hope you know a little about her and her family's beliefs.
There is no "safe" rule of thumb, although my personal guess would be that for people with a "traditional" religous/cultural background (whether it's Western or Eastern), the safest would be to talk to the dad; and for those from more liberal/secular backrounds, the safest would be not to.

Steve
Me? I'm going to ask for his blessing because I think it's a rediculous old fashioned tradition and that makes it quaint and cute.

 

[sparklyandsquare]

Nicrez-

First, if you refer to my earlier post, I said that there was nothing *wrong* with a couple using separate vows that say the woman "loves, honors, and obeys" the man. I was using it to point out that many people choose to follow different traditions, say different things, etc. but one way is no more right for *everyone* than the other. The "submitting" to my husband is not for me (and luckily my b.f. agrees).

Some of the Mennonite/Brethren weddings I've been to did use the women "obeying" vows...some did not. Compared to other ceremonies I've been to, many of these weddings focus less on the couple's love for one another and more on their mutual love for God and establishing a home for God's children in their marriage.

For instance, F&I's decision not to have children would be unthinkable to many of these people and some of them would definitely judge her for making this decision. While there are things I respect about their religion (pacifism, helping the poor, etc.) there is also a LOT of intolerance.

Maybe it's because I grew up in an environment surrounded by a lot of people thinking there's only ONE RIGHT WAY for anyone to live there life that I feel so strongly that people need to make choices that are right for them, not just follow what their family, community, or tradition tells them. "what might be right for you, may not be right for some. It takes Diff'rent Strokes..." hee hee

 

[sparklyandsquare]

Antigoon-

I think you summarize very well!

Only thing I'd change is if a guy's going for the "safe bet," maybe go with asking both parents because that's where the poll is leaning (at the time of this post, 44% of respondents favor asking both parents vs. 21% for father only ). Also, if you want to include your g.f.'s family before asking her, this way you make the mother feel included as well. Bonus! (Besides, from what I hear from my b.f. and other guys I know, the mom's the one you need to worry about pleasing anyhow!)

For you, it sounds like you thought it through and the father will work out best for you so good luck talking to the father and good luck with the proposal!

 

[ShopDiva]

My fiance' asked my parents together. I think it is still a respectful thing to do and she'll appreciate it. Also, depending on how long you've been together and how close you are to them go for it. I'm sure my mom was happy to be included. GOOD LUCK!

 

[fire&ice]

....to stir the pot a little further...

For the most part, I'm not a big believer in talking to both parents - for no other reason than too many cooks spoil the broth. I know my mother. She would have given my to be a dissertation. In other cases, some mothers may feel uncomfortable. The short sweet talk between two people (one on one) is more efficient/direct/sweet & to the point. Also, how many of your mothers can really keep a secret (even if you know it's coming) from you, the daughter.

Regarding vows, nope didn't say obey. Most of my friends didn't. None wrote their own in entirety. Some added stuff. All were a religious service. All served alcohol.

Edited: would be nice if I could proof read once in a while.