Laser Inscription machine

[star2323]

Does your average jewlery store have the machine required to do laser inscriptions in house?

I know laser inscriptions can be removed and changed. So I was thinking if I had a laser inscripted diamond. I could verify the number before taking it to the jewlery store to be cleaned or serviced then check it again once I get it back. If they match then I''m fine.

If the store does not have a machine to do laser inscriptions then chances of having the inscriptions messed with would be zero.

Is my reasoning correct?

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Date: 12/13/2005 11:34:56 AM
Author:star2323

Is my reasoning correct?

Yes, in that regards.

Laser inscription machines are very expensive. 30 grand and up. I don''t know of any jewelers investing in that kind of equipment. Usually it''s just labs and diamond vendors.

 

[RockDoc]

I like the Gemprint system.


There have been a lot of threads about Gemprint vs. Inscription.

Try the search bar using the word Gemprint..

Think you''lll find it informative.

Rockdoc

 

[Regular Guy]

Others obviously use Gemprint, too. As Star sets it out though, I can see how to use the inscription to do an on the spot verification...

Date: 12/13/2005 11:34:56 AM
Author:star2323
...if I had a laser inscripted diamond. I could verify the number before taking it to the jewlery store to be cleaned or serviced then check it again once I get it back. If they match then I''m fine.

Obviously, usually and hopefully, no one will take your diamond. But, if you suspect a shop does do this, what is the protocol for pursuing this?

 

[star2323]

I like the Gemprint system. I think it makes a lot of sense, but you can''t easily get it done. And I wouldn''t be able to do it myself.

I''m currently looking at what it would cost and how long it would take to send a diamond but to GIA to inscript it. I know independent shops can do but then it is not on the certificate which I think is important to the value of the diamond.

 

[oldminer]

We offer laser inscription services at nominal expense to those who need it. I now have two operating laser inscribers. Once you commit to do this work, you hate to use the excuse about the machine being broken. One to use and one as a back-up is best for commercial work.

Few retailers have made the investment to engrave diamonds, but it is not a lengthy or diffiuclt process. The ImaGem equipment we have can identify and re-identify a diamond repeatedly over time as well as or better than Gemprint without any laser inscription or other marking on the diamond. The same with Gemprint, but ImaGem gives immediate recognition and does not require checking with a distant facility that may involve additional time requirements to verify a diamond is the correct one.

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 12/13/2005 1:35:14 PM
Author: oldminer
We offer laser inscription services at nominal expense to those who need it. I now have two operating laser inscribers. Once you commit to do this work, you hate to use the excuse about the machine being broken. One to use and one as a back-up is best for commercial work.

Few retailers have made the investment to engrave diamonds, but it is not a lengthy or diffiuclt process. The ImaGem equipment we have can identify and re-identify a diamond repeatedly over time as well as or better than Gemprint without any laser inscription or other marking on the diamond. The same with Gemprint, but ImaGem gives immediate recognition and does not require checking with a distant facility that may involve additional time requirements to verify a diamond is the correct one.

David,

ImaGem identification ability for diamonds you run is stored locally, correct? I know there is a global server too. Is ID info for all of the diamonds you run also stored globally, or just diamonds >1ct?

 

[oldminer]

With ImaGem (or VerigGem), every diamond one processes in their own lab is stored locally for the length of time one might wish to retain it on their server. After a couple of re-id scans, there is a small fee per diamond verified.

There is a Global registration process, again for a fee, that is geared toward larger diamonds, where any ImaGem connected lab could identify or re-identify a diamond that had been globally registered from any other ImaGem facility so long as the Global ID had been entered into the database.

There are some loose ends here that are not completely tied down yet, but the ability to re-identify a diamond without marking it is a very high security process. Just think, no one will be sure what is being measured in order to recognize the stone. You can't make a fake replacement if you don't know what to match. Its a lot more sophisticated than laser inscription when it comes to being secure. However, it is also way more complex for consumers who will continue to want laser marking on the girdle for some time to come.

 

[star2323]

The ImaGem sounds interesting. But like the GemPrint it would not be very practical for quickly checking after a cleaning.

 

[oldminer]

Exactly. That''s why laser girdle inscription makes a lot of sense.

 

[Shay37]

Date: 12/13/2005 12:36:22 PM
Author: Regular Guy
Others obviously use Gemprint, too. As Star sets it out though, I can see how to use the inscription to do an on the spot verification...

Date: 12/13/2005 11:34:56 AM
Author:star2323
...if I had a laser inscripted diamond. I could verify the number before taking it to the jewlery store to be cleaned or serviced then check it again once I get it back. If they match then I''m fine.

Obviously, usually and hopefully, no one will take your diamond. But, if you suspect a shop does do this, what is the protocol for pursuing this?

Hi, Ira. I would never leave a jewelry store without verifying that I have my ring and my diamond. If I really suspected foul play, (I''m not talking about gosh this ring is clean. It couldn''t possibly be my diamond), I would ask to immediately speak to the owner or on-site manager. If they could not alleviate my concerns, and I REALLY suspected something was not right, I would immediately call the police. I would not take possession of the ring and leave the store ever. Once you do, the bailment is broken. The store can then say that you were the one who switched the stone. It was, after all out of their care and control. While it is in their care and control, they have a legal obligation to return it to you unharmed and with no funny business. Never leave a store with anything that you are not a hundred percent sure is yours.

This happened to my father. He had taken one of his cowboy hats to a special cleaners to get it cleaned and reshaped. It was a gray felt 7x Bradford with a 4 inch brim. At the time he bought it, it cost him about $400. He went to pick up his hat. He looked in the box, saw a gray hat, paid his bill and left. When he got home (60 miles away from the store), he realized that this hat was a cheap felt hat with a 3 inch brim. The difference in cost was close to $300!!! He was furious. He immediately called them and said he was on his way. They first said it was a simple mix up, and then when they could not find his hat, they said he was the one trying to pull a fast one. He never did get his hat back, and the store did not offer one penny for the difference. It was his word against theirs, and he was up a creek without a paddle. If he had never left the store, they would have had to replace his hat with a brand new one or face charges. Lesson learned.

shay

 

[RockDoc]

Hi Shay

I do sympathize with you about your father''s experience.

But to direct an answer to your question about procedure, this is where a marked difference comes in.

I will basically agree that in MOST cases, if you see an inscription on a stone left for repair, it probably wasn''t switched.

However someone who has true larceney in his soul, could who has invested in a laser inscribing machine, could potentially diuplicate the inscription onto a different diamond or even an imiation stone, and if you didn''t know how your diamond appears extremely well, relying on seeing an inscription may or may not be the best way to determine that it is the same stone.

I used to think that the GIA inscription was a solid reliance because not only to the put the report nuimber on the stone, but they also inscribe their logo as well. Previously, it was my belief that the logo of GIA or others were not duplicatable.
I''''ve been informed differently however, that a logo could be scanned as a .jpg.or .tif type file and reproduced by some of the laser inscription machines.

I choose not to make an investment into such equipment as the cost seems to start around 20K and goes up to 200K, depending on the features of the machine, and the different laser features.

Since laser inscription has a minor cost that is charged, it takes a lot of volume to pay back the investment in the equipment as well as the time it takes to do the inscription or the employee cost to do it.

For an ethical and honest merchant it is a big investment which requires a high volume of work in order to make providing the service pay off.

However, if the person that resides on the "dark side of the force" replicating laser incriptions, when each item the substitute could mean $3000 - $10,000 for each stone they "switch", the investment in the laser inscribing machine could be paid back in a short time, and very handsomely.

Now, let''s consider using an inscription to identfy a diamond that was lost or stolen and then recovered. Since the laser inscription could be duplicated, identification may not hold up as being "beyond the shadow of a doubt".

Theft and diamond switch legal matters are almost always brought into a criminal court level of evidence, usually the charge is Theft by conversion or Theft by deception.

If a diamond is stolen, and it is laser inscribed and sold to someone who is in the diamond trad, if they see it is inscribed they know it is identifiable, and the stone is recut or the number polished off at a minimum, as seeing it to a "fence" is a blatant red light that he might get caught.

Gemprint on the other hand does not mark the stone, so if it is stolen, smuggled, or found on someone''s person the legal enforcement folks can get it imaged for free, to establish the identification, and because it is NOT marked, chances are it would not be recut, cause the "fence" won''t assume that a conclusive method of identifying the diamond is an option for those would may exist.

Also, the Gemprint network of people do work with law enforcement agencies, and there is court established precedence that the identification using Gemprint is totally conclusive and accepted as evidence in a criminal court.

As for jewelers who accept other people''s treasured jewelry items, for repiar, appraisal or just cleaning, why they would not have a Gemprint to not only protect them but to prove it is the same stone to the customer is beyond my comprehension.

The new Gemprint version of the machine, has the capability of imaging the diamond when it is left in front of the customers eye, and can be compared again in the same store, and the comparison verification process will automatically map out the ight pattern refraction coparisons, so they customer can be totally assured they are getting back the stone that is left. The imaging can be done while it is mounted too. The cost of the Gemprint is about $ 8000. - a lot cheaper than a laser inscription machine. When a jeweler is taking possession of other people''s property the cost of the Gemprint could be substanciated by saving just one consumer accusation, whether or not it it true.

So.... practical advice.... check out the www.gemprint.com site, see if there is a jeweler who has one locally and let him image your stone, if it needs repair or cleaning. Making the investment to garner confidence and reliance to both the jeweler and his customer is a priceless asset.

Additonally, the cost of registering the gemprint if you have an insurance company who discounts the premiums ( every year), will probably pay for itself in savings in a year or two. A list of the insurance companies that do discount their premiums, and perhaps immediately for an expensive stone.

As for foks who do particpate on this forum who are dealers or appraisers... Neil, Nice Ice, Superb Cert and I all have the new version orf the Gemprint equipment.

Shay, as for the bailment issue, my experience has been that the police don''t care. A few years ago a local jeweler was accused by a person leaving a stone for resetting that it was switched. The sales clerk wrote the receipt stating they received a diamond ring. When the jeweler who was going to do the bench work on it, examined it, he told the owner it was a Cubic Zirconia. They contacted the customer who immediately went to the police, and got warrants signed to arrest the clerk, the owner, and the bench jeweler. Fortunately, for the store the chief detective knew me from other cases, and advised the detective to bring the ring in to me. The cops and the customer brought in the ring, and I was able to substaciate that the stone had not been removed from the mounting, and that when the customer brought it in - it was a CZ and that is was the same stone she left with them. That store was really lucky and forunate that they didn''t get arrested and had to fund a criminal attorney to defend them. So even though she picked up the item and left the store with it, the police weren''t bothered by "since you left with it, the store isn''t responsible".

Shay...I certainly hope that your father filed a police report about this.If he did, his homeowners might replace the hat that he had,, or maybe even the state attorney would be able to help.

Rockdoc