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If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Americans

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

chemgirl|1484792240|4116415 said:
ruby59|1484791452|4116411 said:
chemgirl|1484790538|4116405 said:
ruby59|1484782968|4116371 said:
After reading the first article, I saw an ad on the bottom that the McDonalds Big Mac in Norway is the world's second highest price. So workers make more, but have to spend more to live in that country.

Does not sound different then when under Reagan we had double digit inflation. In our country tptb seem to be very careful about not letting that happen again.

So how is it an improvement?

I don't see how it's bad though? Anecdotal, but DH is British. He would make nearly double his current income if we moved over there. However we would pay more for everything. Our overall financial position wouldn't really change either way. Similar situation for friends who moved to Switzerland.

As long as salaries are proportional to prices and tax rates depend on income level I don't see why it matters.

Honestly curious.

So you earn less and pay less or you earn more and pay more. You are still in the same situation at the end of the day.

In Norway taxes are dependent upon income. But what about everything else. For those earning less, are their groceries cheaper? What about their clothes? Going out to a restaurant? That McDonalds Big Mac?

And that is what we are trying to determine here? How does a country pay for healthcare and free college with a resident's taxes but still make life affordable for everyone?

According to Google a McDonald's employee in Norway makes between the equivalent of 16-24 US dollars. So in theory even low earners are making a liveable wage.

the people who really benefit from a Scandinavian system are the non-earners. Those who can't work for whatever reason.

____________________________________________________
And does this lead to people who say why bother to work? Where is the incentive to work hard?

I would rather earn what I have. And feel others should do the same.

And this is one reason Trump will soon be our new President. Here in the US people are getting tired of able bodied people expecting others to take care of them.
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,345
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

ruby59|1484792634|4116417 said:
chemgirl|1484792240|4116415 said:
ruby59|1484791452|4116411 said:
chemgirl|1484790538|4116405 said:
ruby59|1484782968|4116371 said:
After reading the first article, I saw an ad on the bottom that the McDonalds Big Mac in Norway is the world's second highest price. So workers make more, but have to spend more to live in that country.

Does not sound different then when under Reagan we had double digit inflation. In our country tptb seem to be very careful about not letting that happen again.

So how is it an improvement?

I don't see how it's bad though? Anecdotal, but DH is British. He would make nearly double his current income if we moved over there. However we would pay more for everything. Our overall financial position wouldn't really change either way. Similar situation for friends who moved to Switzerland.

As long as salaries are proportional to prices and tax rates depend on income level I don't see why it matters.

Honestly curious.

So you earn less and pay less or you earn more and pay more. You are still in the same situation at the end of the day.

In Norway taxes are dependent upon income. But what about everything else. For those earning less, are their groceries cheaper? What about their clothes? Going out to a restaurant? That McDonalds Big Mac?

And that is what we are trying to determine here? How does a country pay for healthcare and free college with a resident's taxes but still make life affordable for everyone?

According to Google a McDonald's employee in Norway makes between the equivalent of 16-24 US dollars. So in theory even low earners are making a liveable wage.

the people who really benefit from a Scandinavian system are the non-earners. Those who can't work for whatever reason.

____________________________________________________
And does this lead to people who say why bother to work? Where is the incentive to work hard?

I would rather earn what I have. And feel others should do the same.

And this is one reason Trump will soon be our new President. Here in the US people are getting tired of able bodied people expecting others to take care of them.

And those who aren't able bodied? Or those with mental illness? Should they have to jump through hoops to get basic medical care?

We'll agree to disagree on this. I don't think the US will ever get universal healthcare because of exactly what you said above
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,345
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

Tacori E-ring|1484792323|4116416 said:
chemgirl|1484791526|4116412 said:
Since this is a health care related thread I have a question. Does insurance cover hospital births? Is it really $25,000 and would someone without insurance be expected to pay that out of pocket? What if you end up at a different hospital than planned?

We were having a debate about this at work today and most of us found it really hard to believe.

We pay our deductible. That amount varies greatly. It can be a few hundred to many thousands. Prenatal visits are covered under insurance usually without a co-pay. I went to the doctor where my OB delivered. Insurance can get complicated and some people have "in network" providers. So if I delivered in a different state I would have to pay much more. People without insurance would be billed. That would be a heartbreak for sure. Though I suspect many people do not pay their medical bills. Low income people can apply for medicaid (state insurance).

Thank you for clarifying! So I suppose no travel out of your area after a certain point in the pregnancy.
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

chemgirl|1484793286|4116418 said:
ruby59|1484792634|4116417 said:
chemgirl|1484792240|4116415 said:
ruby59|1484791452|4116411 said:
chemgirl|1484790538|4116405 said:
ruby59|1484782968|4116371 said:
After reading the first article, I saw an ad on the bottom that the McDonalds Big Mac in Norway is the world's second highest price. So workers make more, but have to spend more to live in that country.

Does not sound different then when under Reagan we had double digit inflation. In our country tptb seem to be very careful about not letting that happen again.

So how is it an improvement?

I don't see how it's bad though? Anecdotal, but DH is British. He would make nearly double his current income if we moved over there. However we would pay more for everything. Our overall financial position wouldn't really change either way. Similar situation for friends who moved to Switzerland.

As long as salaries are proportional to prices and tax rates depend on income level I don't see why it matters.

Honestly curious.

So you earn less and pay less or you earn more and pay more. You are still in the same situation at the end of the day.

In Norway taxes are dependent upon income. But what about everything else. For those earning less, are their groceries cheaper? What about their clothes? Going out to a restaurant? That McDonalds Big Mac?

And that is what we are trying to determine here? How does a country pay for healthcare and free college with a resident's taxes but still make life affordable for everyone?

According to Google a McDonald's employee in Norway makes between the equivalent of 16-24 US dollars. So in theory even low earners are making a liveable wage.

the people who really benefit from a Scandinavian system are the non-earners. Those who can't work for whatever reason.

____________________________________________________
And does this lead to people who say why bother to work? Where is the incentive to work hard?

I would rather earn what I have. And feel others should do the same.

And this is one reason Trump will soon be our new President. Here in the US people are getting tired of able bodied people expecting others to take care of them.

And those who aren't able bodied? Or those with mental illness? Should they have to jump through hoops to get basic medical care?

We'll agree to disagree on this. I don't think the US will ever get universal healthcare because of exactly what you said above

Where did I say anything about those who are NOT able bodied?

But to confirm - the old, the infirm, our Vets, the handicapped, the mentally challenged should always be taken care of.
 

chemgirl

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 16, 2009
Messages
2,345
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

ruby59|1484793777|4116420 said:
chemgirl|1484793286|4116418 said:
ruby59|1484792634|4116417 said:
chemgirl|1484792240|4116415 said:
ruby59|1484791452|4116411 said:
chemgirl|1484790538|4116405 said:
ruby59|1484782968|4116371 said:
After reading the first article, I saw an ad on the bottom that the McDonalds Big Mac in Norway is the world's second highest price. So workers make more, but have to spend more to live in that country.

Does not sound different then when under Reagan we had double digit inflation. In our country tptb seem to be very careful about not letting that happen again.

So how is it an improvement?

I don't see how it's bad though? Anecdotal, but DH is British. He would make nearly double his current income if we moved over there. However we would pay more for everything. Our overall financial position wouldn't really change either way. Similar situation for friends who moved to Switzerland.

As long as salaries are proportional to prices and tax rates depend on income level I don't see why it matters.

Honestly curious.

So you earn less and pay less or you earn more and pay more. You are still in the same situation at the end of the day.

In Norway taxes are dependent upon income. But what about everything else. For those earning less, are their groceries cheaper? What about their clothes? Going out to a restaurant? That McDonalds Big Mac?

And that is what we are trying to determine here? How does a country pay for healthcare and free college with a resident's taxes but still make life affordable for everyone?

According to Google a McDonald's employee in Norway makes between the equivalent of 16-24 US dollars. So in theory even low earners are making a liveable wage.

the people who really benefit from a Scandinavian system are the non-earners. Those who can't work for whatever reason.

____________________________________________________
And does this lead to people who say why bother to work? Where is the incentive to work hard?

I would rather earn what I have. And feel others should do the same.

And this is one reason Trump will soon be our new President. Here in the US people are getting tired of able bodied people expecting others to take care of them.

And those who aren't able bodied? Or those with mental illness? Should they have to jump through hoops to get basic medical care?

We'll agree to disagree on this. I don't think the US will ever get universal healthcare because of exactly what you said above

Where did I say anything about those who are NOT able bodied?

But to confirm - the old, the infirm, our Vets, the handicapped, the mentally challenged should always be taken care of.

I said those who can't work for whatever reason. that includes everyone you just mentioned.
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

chemgirl|1484794495|4116421 said:
ruby59|1484793777|4116420 said:
chemgirl|1484793286|4116418 said:
ruby59|1484792634|4116417 said:
chemgirl|1484792240|4116415 said:
ruby59|1484791452|4116411 said:
chemgirl|1484790538|4116405 said:
ruby59|1484782968|4116371 said:
After reading the first article, I saw an ad on the bottom that the McDonalds Big Mac in Norway is the world's second highest price. So workers make more, but have to spend more to live in that country.

Does not sound different then when under Reagan we had double digit inflation. In our country tptb seem to be very careful about not letting that happen again.

So how is it an improvement?

I don't see how it's bad though? Anecdotal, but DH is British. He would make nearly double his current income if we moved over there. However we would pay more for everything. Our overall financial position wouldn't really change either way. Similar situation for friends who moved to Switzerland.

As long as salaries are proportional to prices and tax rates depend on income level I don't see why it matters.

Honestly curious.

So you earn less and pay less or you earn more and pay more. You are still in the same situation at the end of the day.

In Norway taxes are dependent upon income. But what about everything else. For those earning less, are their groceries cheaper? What about their clothes? Going out to a restaurant? That McDonalds Big Mac?

And that is what we are trying to determine here? How does a country pay for healthcare and free college with a resident's taxes but still make life affordable for everyone?

According to Google a McDonald's employee in Norway makes between the equivalent of 16-24 US dollars. So in theory even low earners are making a liveable wage.

the people who really benefit from a Scandinavian system are the non-earners. Those who can't work for whatever reason.

____________________________________________________
And does this lead to people who say why bother to work? Where is the incentive to work hard?

I would rather earn what I have. And feel others should do the same.

And this is one reason Trump will soon be our new President. Here in the US people are getting tired of able bodied people expecting others to take care of them.

And those who aren't able bodied? Or those with mental illness? Should they have to jump through hoops to get basic medical care?

We'll agree to disagree on this. I don't think the US will ever get universal healthcare because of exactly what you said above

Where did I say anything about those who are NOT able bodied?

But to confirm - the old, the infirm, our Vets, the handicapped, the mentally challenged should always be taken care of.

I said those who can't work for whatever reason. that includes everyone you just mentioned.

Includes but not limited to. And that is what made ObamaCare so expensive for ordinary middle classers.
 

Scandinavian

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 23, 2016
Messages
2,144
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

ruby59|1484768020|4116304 said:
Scandinavian|1484730263|4116187 said:
I live in Scandinavia, and here, in brief, the health care system is paid for through the general tax system, in principal same as for example the police. I think the main difference is how we look at the system - we consider the right to health care unrelated to how much money you can pay. Period. It is a human right, same as the right to be safe in your own home. Is it expensive? Probably. Do we care? No. Simple as that :lol:

Then how does the average person afford to live in your country?

I can try to explain re McDonalds and wages and taxes etc, because all the Scandinavian countries pretty much have the same system. Taxes are proportionate to your income, and increase in percentage paid if you make more. So if you are a "low income" employee for example at McDonalds, your tax rate percentage is much lower than for other work groups where for example a higher education is required. Please also keep in mind that the real unemployment rate is very low. So if you want a job, you will be able to find one. Also, the social security system will keep you rather well fed if you can't work for whatever reason. So. Most of the people working in McDonalds etc are students and young people, it is not a lifelong employment. Also, if you are "rich" or even "well to do", you pay rather a lot of tax. Same goes for companies. But that is just one part of it. You also have to consider how that money is spent. We use a much lower percentage on for example the military - don't even call it military - just "defence". Just as an example. We don't really do private schools either. Its just a different system, built on the idea of equality. Everybody is seen as having equal rights to everything that is deemed a "human right", such as education, welfare, health etc. (Education is free including universities). Not saying that it is the best or most efficient system from an economic perspective, just trying to explain how it works. But it is difficult to get rich here, I'll give you that! :) And there is no inflation here, just mentioning. Just high wages. I did a search for you (using google, lol) and I think the minimum wages in Norway are about NOK 170, or USD 20 (at the current exchange rate) per hour for work group such as cleaning personnel. They have somewhat higher minimum wages for skilled labour.
 

Tekate

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
7,570
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

kmarla|1484611093|4115834 said:
I have immediate family that are American and they are really stressed about what's happening with healthcare. It is such a difficult time.
I do know that my relatives in the U.S., who have private insurance, are shocked at how long we have to wait to access services here. They get access to specialists almost immediately and don't have to wait long for surgery etc.
We are in Canada and healthcare here is a provincial responsibility, so each province has their own guidelines. Public healthcare is federally mandated, but it is administered by individual provinces. We do not have a two-tier (public/private) system here, only public access. We pay for healthcare through our taxes, so the higher your tax bracket, the more you pay. Right now approx. 31 cents of every dollar in taxes collected in our country goes to health care. Healthcare is not free, the cost is hidden in the very high provincial/federal taxes we pay. My province also has a healthcare premium/surcharge depending on income. We pay about $1500 extra per year per adult for this premium. We don't get anything extra for this premium. In addition, most people also pay for supplemental insurance either through their employer or privately to cover the long list of services that are not covered through provincial healthcare. Everything from prescribed drugs, to needles and test strips for diabetics, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, sem-private or private hospital rooms, and on and on and on. I would say that in an absolute emergency our system works very well. Wait lists are very long though to access any specialist care, and can often run from months to years, depending. Same goes for elective surgeries (hip/knee replacements, vision etc). Many people don't have family doctors due to shortages of family physicians, so they end up having to go to emergency for treatment that should be done in a doctor's office. It took my husband over three years to finally find a family physician in our city. The medical professionals who work in our healthcare system are wonderful. There just aren't enough of them. We also do a tremendous amount of local fundraising in order to acquire medical equipment (MRI/catscan/ultrasound etc) for our local hospitals, as the provincial funding is not enough to cover the costs.

Is it the same for cancer care? if you are diagnosed with say lung cancer do you have years wait to start chemo (if you want chemo, not sure I would, but that is another story :) ) Why does your province have the extra 1,500$, because your health insurance sounds horrible and is different than the information my sister in law from Vancouver says, she says they wait very little time for anything and her mother has turned down a hip replacement 2x because she just isn't ready. :) do you think it's just your province? How much do you pay through your employer for the long list of things not covered? I pay 10,000.00$ a year plus 6K deductible, plus copayments, my insurance told me I could not have an MRI so I had to pay for it myself, 3K+... family doctor's are in high demand, even in the US, do medical students pay for medical school (in the US one usually comes out of medical school owing 250K plus, or at least the family members I have who are physicians).. The higher the tax bracket one is in, the more they should pay that sounds good to me :) average salary of a family practioner in the US is 195K, with orthopedic surgeons making upwards to 400K a year. What is the payscale in Canada? I had read about some provinces in Canada that have longer waits etc for healthcare due to the fact that they are more rural.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/february/10_myths_about_canad.php

that may explain why my SIL in Vancouver has no waits or no problem with drugs etc.

In order for me to get the best care possible I have to go Boston about 1.5 hours away from where I live..
 

ruby59

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Messages
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partgypsy

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
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Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

E B|1484674598|4115990 said:
From the CBO. Repeal and delay looks pretty bleak.

https://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/f...17-2018/reports/52371-coverageandpremiums.pdf

The number of people who are uninsured would increase by 18 million in the first new plan year following enactment of the bill. Later, after the elimination of the ACA’s expansion of Medicaid eligibility and of subsidies for insurance purchased through the ACA marketplaces, that number would increase to 27 million, and then to 32 million in 2026.

Premiums in the nongroup market (for individual policies purchased through the marketplaces or directly from insurers) would increase by 20 percent to 25 percent—relative to projections under current law—in the first new plan year following enactment. The increase would reach about 50 percent in the year following the elimination of the Medicaid expansion and the marketplace subsidies, and premiums would about double by 2026.


In case people are not aware of it, in the legislation to repeal the ACA, they also included language that there would be no estimating of the COST of repealing ACA, despite that is what is routinely done for this kind of legislation. So, in addition to throwing millions of people off insured rolls, it will cost everyone. Even for those who are not for equitable access to healthcare (I don't consider people going to the ER for emergencies with catastrophic bills as "healthcare") then they should consider that repealing the ACA is also fiscally irresponsible.

http://shareblue.com/house-gop-appallingly-votes-to-conceal-cost-of-obamacare-repeal-to-taxpayers/#.WHEz5lT032p.facebook
http://money.cnn.com/2017/01/04/news/economy/obamacare-repeal-deficit/index.html
 

kmarla

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
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Messages
690
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

Tekate|1484841468|4116532 said:
kmarla|1484611093|4115834 said:
I have immediate family that are American and they are really stressed about what's happening with healthcare. It is such a difficult time.
I do know that my relatives in the U.S., who have private insurance, are shocked at how long we have to wait to access services here. They get access to specialists almost immediately and don't have to wait long for surgery etc.
We are in Canada and healthcare here is a provincial responsibility, so each province has their own guidelines. Public healthcare is federally mandated, but it is administered by individual provinces. We do not have a two-tier (public/private) system here, only public access. We pay for healthcare through our taxes, so the higher your tax bracket, the more you pay. Right now approx. 31 cents of every dollar in taxes collected in our country goes to health care. Healthcare is not free, the cost is hidden in the very high provincial/federal taxes we pay. My province also has a healthcare premium/surcharge depending on income. We pay about $1500 extra per year per adult for this premium. We don't get anything extra for this premium. In addition, most people also pay for supplemental insurance either through their employer or privately to cover the long list of services that are not covered through provincial healthcare. Everything from prescribed drugs, to needles and test strips for diabetics, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, sem-private or private hospital rooms, and on and on and on. I would say that in an absolute emergency our system works very well. Wait lists are very long though to access any specialist care, and can often run from months to years, depending. Same goes for elective surgeries (hip/knee replacements, vision etc). Many people don't have family doctors due to shortages of family physicians, so they end up having to go to emergency for treatment that should be done in a doctor's office. It took my husband over three years to finally find a family physician in our city. The medical professionals who work in our healthcare system are wonderful. There just aren't enough of them. We also do a tremendous amount of local fundraising in order to acquire medical equipment (MRI/catscan/ultrasound etc) for our local hospitals, as the provincial funding is not enough to cover the costs.

Is it the same for cancer care? if you are diagnosed with say lung cancer do you have years wait to start chemo (if you want chemo, not sure I would, but that is another story :) ) Why does your province have the extra 1,500$, because your health insurance sounds horrible and is different than the information my sister in law from Vancouver says, she says they wait very little time for anything and her mother has turned down a hip replacement 2x because she just isn't ready. :) do you think it's just your province? How much do you pay through your employer for the long list of things not covered? I pay 10,000.00$ a year plus 6K deductible, plus copayments, my insurance told me I could not have an MRI so I had to pay for it myself, 3K+... family doctor's are in high demand, even in the US, do medical students pay for medical school (in the US one usually comes out of medical school owing 250K plus, or at least the family members I have who are physicians).. The higher the tax bracket one is in, the more they should pay that sounds good to me :) average salary of a family practioner in the US is 195K, with orthopedic surgeons making upwards to 400K a year. What is the payscale in Canada? I had read about some provinces in Canada that have longer waits etc for healthcare due to the fact that they are more rural.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/february/10_myths_about_canad.php

that may explain why my SIL in Vancouver has no waits or no problem with drugs etc.

In order for me to get the best care possible I have to go Boston about 1.5 hours away from where I live..

Okay, this is going to be a bit lengthy so I apologize. There's good and not so good with our healthcare.
I don't live in in B.C., but as I said earlier each province has its own guidelines. I corrected it earlier but our health care premium is up to $900 per adult per year, depending on income. This is a surtax. Every province has waitlists, some even for cancer diagnosis, heart issues etc. I can attest to this personally and with other family members and friends, some in my province and some in other provinces. Example, family member is awaiting biopsy for very suspicious mass right now. From initial discovery of mass, then u/s one month later, to finally getting needed biopsy will be two months. Then if diagnosed with cancer hopefully the process will speed right up. They're on a cancellation list but so far no luck in speeding up. I need a biopsy myself. I found out in early December but I'm still waiting for call back with appointment and was told it could take a couple more months. Both these examples are considered urgent referrals. My FIL (different province) had several symptoms but it took months waiting for appointments/specialists for him to be diagnosed with lung cancer. He passed away a year later. I'm really surprised to hear of someone turning down hip replacement twice. My cousin (very fit in early 40's) needed a hip replacement and he waited almost three years, in pain the whole time. He would never dream of turning it down when offered. Because we have public, socialized healthcare, we can't jump the que or go to a private hospital (unless we pay out of pocket and leave country). Some provinces have started having some private clinics for things like MRI's to relieve wait lists. You have to pay out of pocket for that and can't be reimbursed by your provincial healthcare. Our supplemental insurance doesn't cover it either. In my city (province) they have started going towards centralized facilities for specific health care needs instead of treating at every hospital. For example Breast Health Centre is specialized, so they have specially trained medical staff, equipment etc. All treatments (chemo, radiation, surgery etc) can be handled through there. That's a good thing. But almost everyone in the region is funnelled there, so wait lists develop. I suspect that in larger cities like Vancouver or Toronto wait lists for certain treatments might be shorter as more medical specialists are drawn to those larger cities. I can't say for certain though. Being rural is always tougher for health care. For anything serious you would be referred to a larger centre. I live in a city of just over one million, so fairly large. If you were in an emergency situation you'd absolutely go to the front of the list. It's waiting for diagnosis and initial treatment that takes longer and creates extra anxiety. Here our family doctor is the hub in the wheel for all treatments. We find/choose our family doctor. He/she refers you to specialists etc. We can't contact specialists directly and we can't choose our surgeons or specialized health team. You can always let your family doctor know if you have a preference but you're not guaranteed to get them. An exception to this for example would be the breast screening program. It's provincially run and we can call directly for an appointment. You have to be a certain age (starts at 50 unless you're high risk) and can only be done biannually unless again you're high risk. Generally speaking we Canadians are very protective of our socialized healthcare. There's a lot of good about it overall and people don't complain about high taxes to pay for it.The best thing is that everyone is covered regardless of income. Once you're diagnosed things click into place quickly and you receive regular treatment. Every time the idea comes up of introducing a private tier of healthcare it gets shot down. People are afraid that all the doctors would flee to the private facilities and public wait lists would be even longer for those who can't afford the private insurance.

Our private supplemental healthcare insurance rates vary, depending on the company. Some plans are hidden within salaries as part of employment benefit and some people pay separately, so it's hard to answer cost exactly. All these plans are essentially co-pay. For example, our plan covers 80% of cost of prescription medication (with some exceptions). We cover 20% plus handling fee, which for us is $12 per dispensary. Other services might have an annual limit i.e., psychology services $500, physiotherapy $400 etc. Each insurance plan varies. Dental care (with a couple of exceptions) is not covered by our provincial healthcare. That's another private supplemental insurance we carry separately. These plans also vary but they're co-pay. We get a cleaning every nine months, but other procedures might be 50/50 split for example or have an annual limit.

People that are on provincial welfare or disability have free prescriptions ( not all drugs are covered) and very basic coverage for things like eye glasses and dental care. Over age 65 prescription drugs are either covered or subsidized depending on income.

Our post secondary educational system is partially subsidized through our taxes. We still pay tuition fees, but not to the extent Americans do. A general Arts degree at a public university right now is about $6500 per year depending on university. It could be higher since I'm a bit rusty on this. This doesn't include books, extra fees etc or food/shelter and transportation. Depending on family circumstance, you might qualify for student loans or grants. Again this is means tested so dependent on income or family income. College tuition is less expensive. There are also scholarships that can be applied for. We have the Ontario Scholar Program, where you qualify if you maintain an average of 80% or higher graduating high school. University tuition fees will be reimbursed each year if you maintain an average over 80%. I don't know if this goes beyond undergraduate degree. You lose it permanently if you don't meet the threshold. So it's difficult to say what medical students pay in tuition. It's individual. Medical school is not free though, there is tuition which is much higher than a general Arts degree.

Pay scale for doctors depends on province and then specialty etc. Rates for services are set by the province (in my province) so they charge the province whatever the rate is for the service i.e., visit to family doctor, specialist consult, surgery etc. Sorry I can't be more specific. We don't pay to see our doctor, have surgery or other service covered by our healthcare. Don't quote me on this but I read recently somewhere that the average salary for doctors in Ontario is $350,000. This is before deductions for staff, office etc and I assume before taxes.

Hope this helps.
 

Tacori E-ring

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Joined
Aug 15, 2005
Messages
20,041
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

chemgirl|1484793692|4116419 said:
Tacori E-ring|1484792323|4116416 said:
chemgirl|1484791526|4116412 said:
Since this is a health care related thread I have a question. Does insurance cover hospital births? Is it really $25,000 and would someone without insurance be expected to pay that out of pocket? What if you end up at a different hospital than planned?

We were having a debate about this at work today and most of us found it really hard to believe.

We pay our deductible. That amount varies greatly. It can be a few hundred to many thousands. Prenatal visits are covered under insurance usually without a co-pay. I went to the doctor where my OB delivered. Insurance can get complicated and some people have "in network" providers. So if I delivered in a different state I would have to pay much more. People without insurance would be billed. That would be a heartbreak for sure. Though I suspect many people do not pay their medical bills. Low income people can apply for medicaid (state insurance).

Thank you for clarifying! So I suppose no travel out of your area after a certain point in the pregnancy.

Your welcome. I meant to say I delivered at the hospital my OB worked. I think that is standard. We are advised not to travel at a certain point. Can't remember how far along now.
 

Tacori E-ring

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 15, 2005
Messages
20,041
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

Here is an example of the heartbreaking truth of our current healthcare system. I work in organ transplant. I can think of two patients of the top of my head who cannot afford to get their liver transplants because they have private (commercial) insurance. One patient is on his wife's plan (through her job). The other works as a delivery driver and cannot afford to take time off work or pay his portion or medications. My patients on state insurance...no problem. So basically if you are working or married to someone working, you are screwed.
 

Tekate

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
7,570
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

kmarla|1484860066|4116642 said:
Tekate|1484841468|4116532 said:
kmarla|1484611093|4115834 said:
I have immediate family that are American and they are really stressed about what's happening with healthcare. It is such a difficult time.
I do know that my relatives in the U.S., who have private insurance, are shocked at how long we have to wait to access services here. They get access to specialists almost immediately and don't have to wait long for surgery etc.
We are in Canada and healthcare here is a provincial responsibility, so each province has their own guidelines. Public healthcare is federally mandated, but it is administered by individual provinces. We do not have a two-tier (public/private) system here, only public access. We pay for healthcare through our taxes, so the higher your tax bracket, the more you pay. Right now approx. 31 cents of every dollar in taxes collected in our country goes to health care. Healthcare is not free, the cost is hidden in the very high provincial/federal taxes we pay. My province also has a healthcare premium/surcharge depending on income. We pay about $1500 extra per year per adult for this premium. We don't get anything extra for this premium. In addition, most people also pay for supplemental insurance either through their employer or privately to cover the long list of services that are not covered through provincial healthcare. Everything from prescribed drugs, to needles and test strips for diabetics, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, sem-private or private hospital rooms, and on and on and on. I would say that in an absolute emergency our system works very well. Wait lists are very long though to access any specialist care, and can often run from months to years, depending. Same goes for elective surgeries (hip/knee replacements, vision etc). Many people don't have family doctors due to shortages of family physicians, so they end up having to go to emergency for treatment that should be done in a doctor's office. It took my husband over three years to finally find a family physician in our city. The medical professionals who work in our healthcare system are wonderful. There just aren't enough of them. We also do a tremendous amount of local fundraising in order to acquire medical equipment (MRI/catscan/ultrasound etc) for our local hospitals, as the provincial funding is not enough to cover the costs.

Is it the same for cancer care? if you are diagnosed with say lung cancer do you have years wait to start chemo (if you want chemo, not sure I would, but that is another story :) ) Why does your province have the extra 1,500$, because your health insurance sounds horrible and is different than the information my sister in law from Vancouver says, she says they wait very little time for anything and her mother has turned down a hip replacement 2x because she just isn't ready. :) do you think it's just your province? How much do you pay through your employer for the long list of things not covered? I pay 10,000.00$ a year plus 6K deductible, plus copayments, my insurance told me I could not have an MRI so I had to pay for it myself, 3K+... family doctor's are in high demand, even in the US, do medical students pay for medical school (in the US one usually comes out of medical school owing 250K plus, or at least the family members I have who are physicians).. The higher the tax bracket one is in, the more they should pay that sounds good to me :) average salary of a family practioner in the US is 195K, with orthopedic surgeons making upwards to 400K a year. What is the payscale in Canada? I had read about some provinces in Canada that have longer waits etc for healthcare due to the fact that they are more rural.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/february/10_myths_about_canad.php

that may explain why my SIL in Vancouver has no waits or no problem with drugs etc.

In order for me to get the best care possible I have to go Boston about 1.5 hours away from where I live..

Okay, this is going to be a bit lengthy so I apologize. There's good and not so good with our healthcare.
I don't live in in B.C., but as I said earlier each province has its own guidelines. I corrected it earlier but our health care premium is up to $900 per adult per year, depending on income. This is a surtax. Every province has waitlists, some even for cancer diagnosis, heart issues etc. I can attest to this personally and with other family members and friends, some in my province and some in other provinces. Example, family member is awaiting biopsy for very suspicious mass right now. From initial discovery of mass, then u/s one month later, to finally getting needed biopsy will be two months. Then if diagnosed with cancer hopefully the process will speed right up. They're on a cancellation list but so far no luck in speeding up. I need a biopsy myself. I found out in early December but I'm still waiting for call back with appointment and was told it could take a couple more months. Both these examples are considered urgent referrals. My FIL (different province) had several symptoms but it took months waiting for appointments/specialists for him to be diagnosed with lung cancer. He passed away a year later. I'm really surprised to hear of someone turning down hip replacement twice. My cousin (very fit in early 40's) needed a hip replacement and he waited almost three years, in pain the whole time. He would never dream of turning it down when offered. Because we have public, socialized healthcare, we can't jump the que or go to a private hospital (unless we pay out of pocket and leave country). Some provinces have started having some private clinics for things like MRI's to relieve wait lists. You have to pay out of pocket for that and can't be reimbursed by your provincial healthcare. Our supplemental insurance doesn't cover it either. In my city (province) they have started going towards centralized facilities for specific health care needs instead of treating at every hospital. For example Breast Health Centre is specialized, so they have specially trained medical staff, equipment etc. All treatments (chemo, radiation, surgery etc) can be handled through there. That's a good thing. But almost everyone in the region is funnelled there, so wait lists develop. I suspect that in larger cities like Vancouver or Toronto wait lists for certain treatments might be shorter as more medical specialists are drawn to those larger cities. I can't say for certain though. Being rural is always tougher for health care. For anything serious you would be referred to a larger centre. I live in a city of just over one million, so fairly large. If you were in an emergency situation you'd absolutely go to the front of the list. It's waiting for diagnosis and initial treatment that takes longer and creates extra anxiety. Here our family doctor is the hub in the wheel for all treatments. We find/choose our family doctor. He/she refers you to specialists etc. We can't contact specialists directly and we can't choose our surgeons or specialized health team. You can always let your family doctor know if you have a preference but you're not guaranteed to get them. An exception to this for example would be the breast screening program. It's provincially run and we can call directly for an appointment. You have to be a certain age (starts at 50 unless you're high risk) and can only be done biannually unless again you're high risk. Generally speaking we Canadians are very protective of our socialized healthcare. There's a lot of good about it overall and people don't complain about high taxes to pay for it.The best thing is that everyone is covered regardless of income. Once you're diagnosed things click into place quickly and you receive regular treatment. Every time the idea comes up of introducing a private tier of healthcare it gets shot down. People are afraid that all the doctors would flee to the private facilities and public wait lists would be even longer for those who can't afford the private insurance.

Our private supplemental healthcare insurance rates vary, depending on the company. Some plans are hidden within salaries as part of employment benefit and some people pay separately, so it's hard to answer cost exactly. All these plans are essentially co-pay. For example, our plan covers 80% of cost of prescription medication (with some exceptions). We cover 20% plus handling fee, which for us is $12 per dispensary. Other services might have an annual limit i.e., psychology services $500, physiotherapy $400 etc. Each insurance plan varies. Dental care (with a couple of exceptions) is not covered by our provincial healthcare. That's another private supplemental insurance we carry separately. These plans also vary but they're co-pay. We get a cleaning every nine months, but other procedures might be 50/50 split for example or have an annual limit.

People that are on provincial welfare or disability have free prescriptions ( not all drugs are covered) and very basic coverage for things like eye glasses and dental care. Over age 65 prescription drugs are either covered or subsidized depending on income.

Our post secondary educational system is partially subsidized through our taxes. We still pay tuition fees, but not to the extent Americans do. A general Arts degree at a public university right now is about $6500 per year depending on university. It could be higher since I'm a bit rusty on this. This doesn't include books, extra fees etc or food/shelter and transportation. Depending on family circumstance, you might qualify for student loans or grants. Again this is means tested so dependent on income or family income. College tuition is less expensive. There are also scholarships that can be applied for. We have the Ontario Scholar Program, where you qualify if you maintain an average of 80% or higher graduating high school. University tuition fees will be reimbursed each year if you maintain an average over 80%. I don't know if this goes beyond undergraduate degree. You lose it permanently if you don't meet the threshold. So it's difficult to say what medical students pay in tuition. It's individual. Medical school is not free though, there is tuition which is much higher than a general Arts degree.

Pay scale for doctors depends on province and then specialty etc. Rates for services are set by the province (in my province) so they charge the province whatever the rate is for the service i.e., visit to family doctor, specialist consult, surgery etc. Sorry I can't be more specific. We don't pay to see our doctor, have surgery or other service covered by our healthcare. Don't quote me on this but I read recently somewhere that the average salary for doctors in Ontario is $350,000. This is before deductions for staff, office etc and I assume before taxes.

Hope this helps.

As I said, my SIL in Vancouver has no such waits. As to waiting on a hip replacement, people do, and often, until it the pain becomes unbearable, one we all feel maybe it will go away, in the beginning medication, shots and P/T help.

My SIL's mother has still put off her hip replacement(s).. because she smokes. I put mine off because I was scared and I kept hoping I would get better... in the beginning narcotic pain meds help a lot, then they don't.. Maybe in Canada when one is told they have osteoarthritis of the hip that they then get into the queue. 350,000.00$ is more than the average family care practitioner makes in the USA almost by double Of course family care doc could make 500k a year in manhattan, don't know..

good article on 2016 wait times in Canada. Chemo seems to be fairly quickly. You all need more orthopedic surgeons.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/healthcare-wait-times-hit-20-weeks-in-2016-report-1.3171718

seems like bureaucracy is a big problem, and where you live. Being compared to North Korea is not something Canada should not want to happen..
 

kmarla

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 8, 2013
Messages
690
Re: If ACA is repealed what will happen to millions of Ameri

Tekate|1484928671|4116899 said:
kmarla|1484860066|4116642 said:
Tekate|1484841468|4116532 said:
kmarla|1484611093|4115834 said:
I have immediate family that are American and they are really stressed about what's happening with healthcare. It is such a difficult time.
I do know that my relatives in the U.S., who have private insurance, are shocked at how long we have to wait to access services here. They get access to specialists almost immediately and don't have to wait long for surgery etc.
We are in Canada and healthcare here is a provincial responsibility, so each province has their own guidelines. Public healthcare is federally mandated, but it is administered by individual provinces. We do not have a two-tier (public/private) system here, only public access. We pay for healthcare through our taxes, so the higher your tax bracket, the more you pay. Right now approx. 31 cents of every dollar in taxes collected in our country goes to health care. Healthcare is not free, the cost is hidden in the very high provincial/federal taxes we pay. My province also has a healthcare premium/surcharge depending on income. We pay about $1500 extra per year per adult for this premium. We don't get anything extra for this premium. In addition, most people also pay for supplemental insurance either through their employer or privately to cover the long list of services that are not covered through provincial healthcare. Everything from prescribed drugs, to needles and test strips for diabetics, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, sem-private or private hospital rooms, and on and on and on. I would say that in an absolute emergency our system works very well. Wait lists are very long though to access any specialist care, and can often run from months to years, depending. Same goes for elective surgeries (hip/knee replacements, vision etc). Many people don't have family doctors due to shortages of family physicians, so they end up having to go to emergency for treatment that should be done in a doctor's office. It took my husband over three years to finally find a family physician in our city. The medical professionals who work in our healthcare system are wonderful. There just aren't enough of them. We also do a tremendous amount of local fundraising in order to acquire medical equipment (MRI/catscan/ultrasound etc) for our local hospitals, as the provincial funding is not enough to cover the costs.

Is it the same for cancer care? if you are diagnosed with say lung cancer do you have years wait to start chemo (if you want chemo, not sure I would, but that is another story :) ) Why does your province have the extra 1,500$, because your health insurance sounds horrible and is different than the information my sister in law from Vancouver says, she says they wait very little time for anything and her mother has turned down a hip replacement 2x because she just isn't ready. :) do you think it's just your province? How much do you pay through your employer for the long list of things not covered? I pay 10,000.00$ a year plus 6K deductible, plus copayments, my insurance told me I could not have an MRI so I had to pay for it myself, 3K+... family doctor's are in high demand, even in the US, do medical students pay for medical school (in the US one usually comes out of medical school owing 250K plus, or at least the family members I have who are physicians).. The higher the tax bracket one is in, the more they should pay that sounds good to me :) average salary of a family practioner in the US is 195K, with orthopedic surgeons making upwards to 400K a year. What is the payscale in Canada? I had read about some provinces in Canada that have longer waits etc for healthcare due to the fact that they are more rural.

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2008/february/10_myths_about_canad.php

that may explain why my SIL in Vancouver has no waits or no problem with drugs etc.

In order for me to get the best care possible I have to go Boston about 1.5 hours away from where I live..

Okay, this is going to be a bit lengthy so I apologize. There's good and not so good with our healthcare.
I don't live in in B.C., but as I said earlier each province has its own guidelines. I corrected it earlier but our health care premium is up to $900 per adult per year, depending on income. This is a surtax. Every province has waitlists, some even for cancer diagnosis, heart issues etc. I can attest to this personally and with other family members and friends, some in my province and some in other provinces. Example, family member is awaiting biopsy for very suspicious mass right now. From initial discovery of mass, then u/s one month later, to finally getting needed biopsy will be two months. Then if diagnosed with cancer hopefully the process will speed right up. They're on a cancellation list but so far no luck in speeding up. I need a biopsy myself. I found out in early December but I'm still waiting for call back with appointment and was told it could take a couple more months. Both these examples are considered urgent referrals. My FIL (different province) had several symptoms but it took months waiting for appointments/specialists for him to be diagnosed with lung cancer. He passed away a year later. I'm really surprised to hear of someone turning down hip replacement twice. My cousin (very fit in early 40's) needed a hip replacement and he waited almost three years, in pain the whole time. He would never dream of turning it down when offered. Because we have public, socialized healthcare, we can't jump the que or go to a private hospital (unless we pay out of pocket and leave country). Some provinces have started having some private clinics for things like MRI's to relieve wait lists. You have to pay out of pocket for that and can't be reimbursed by your provincial healthcare. Our supplemental insurance doesn't cover it either. In my city (province) they have started going towards centralized facilities for specific health care needs instead of treating at every hospital. For example Breast Health Centre is specialized, so they have specially trained medical staff, equipment etc. All treatments (chemo, radiation, surgery etc) can be handled through there. That's a good thing. But almost everyone in the region is funnelled there, so wait lists develop. I suspect that in larger cities like Vancouver or Toronto wait lists for certain treatments might be shorter as more medical specialists are drawn to those larger cities. I can't say for certain though. Being rural is always tougher for health care. For anything serious you would be referred to a larger centre. I live in a city of just over one million, so fairly large. If you were in an emergency situation you'd absolutely go to the front of the list. It's waiting for diagnosis and initial treatment that takes longer and creates extra anxiety. Here our family doctor is the hub in the wheel for all treatments. We find/choose our family doctor. He/she refers you to specialists etc. We can't contact specialists directly and we can't choose our surgeons or specialized health team. You can always let your family doctor know if you have a preference but you're not guaranteed to get them. An exception to this for example would be the breast screening program. It's provincially run and we can call directly for an appointment. You have to be a certain age (starts at 50 unless you're high risk) and can only be done biannually unless again you're high risk. Generally speaking we Canadians are very protective of our socialized healthcare. There's a lot of good about it overall and people don't complain about high taxes to pay for it.The best thing is that everyone is covered regardless of income. Once you're diagnosed things click into place quickly and you receive regular treatment. Every time the idea comes up of introducing a private tier of healthcare it gets shot down. People are afraid that all the doctors would flee to the private facilities and public wait lists would be even longer for those who can't afford the private insurance.

Our private supplemental healthcare insurance rates vary, depending on the company. Some plans are hidden within salaries as part of employment benefit and some people pay separately, so it's hard to answer cost exactly. All these plans are essentially co-pay. For example, our plan covers 80% of cost of prescription medication (with some exceptions). We cover 20% plus handling fee, which for us is $12 per dispensary. Other services might have an annual limit i.e., psychology services $500, physiotherapy $400 etc. Each insurance plan varies. Dental care (with a couple of exceptions) is not covered by our provincial healthcare. That's another private supplemental insurance we carry separately. These plans also vary but they're co-pay. We get a cleaning every nine months, but other procedures might be 50/50 split for example or have an annual limit.

People that are on provincial welfare or disability have free prescriptions ( not all drugs are covered) and very basic coverage for things like eye glasses and dental care. Over age 65 prescription drugs are either covered or subsidized depending on income.

Our post secondary educational system is partially subsidized through our taxes. We still pay tuition fees, but not to the extent Americans do. A general Arts degree at a public university right now is about $6500 per year depending on university. It could be higher since I'm a bit rusty on this. This doesn't include books, extra fees etc or food/shelter and transportation. Depending on family circumstance, you might qualify for student loans or grants. Again this is means tested so dependent on income or family income. College tuition is less expensive. There are also scholarships that can be applied for. We have the Ontario Scholar Program, where you qualify if you maintain an average of 80% or higher graduating high school. University tuition fees will be reimbursed each year if you maintain an average over 80%. I don't know if this goes beyond undergraduate degree. You lose it permanently if you don't meet the threshold. So it's difficult to say what medical students pay in tuition. It's individual. Medical school is not free though, there is tuition which is much higher than a general Arts degree.

Pay scale for doctors depends on province and then specialty etc. Rates for services are set by the province (in my province) so they charge the province whatever the rate is for the service i.e., visit to family doctor, specialist consult, surgery etc. Sorry I can't be more specific. We don't pay to see our doctor, have surgery or other service covered by our healthcare. Don't quote me on this but I read recently somewhere that the average salary for doctors in Ontario is $350,000. This is before deductions for staff, office etc and I assume before taxes.

Hope this helps.

As I said, my SIL in Vancouver has no such waits. As to waiting on a hip replacement, people do, and often, until it the pain becomes unbearable, one we all feel maybe it will go away, in the beginning medication, shots and P/T help.

My SIL's mother has still put off her hip replacement(s).. because she smokes. I put mine off because I was scared and I kept hoping I would get better... in the beginning narcotic pain meds help a lot, then they don't.. Maybe in Canada when one is told they have osteoarthritis of the hip that they then get into the queue. 350,000.00$ is more than the average family care practitioner makes in the USA almost by double Of course family care doc could make 500k a year in manhattan, don't know..

good article on 2016 wait times in Canada. Chemo seems to be fairly quickly. You all need more orthopedic surgeons.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/healthcare-wait-times-hit-20-weeks-in-2016-report-1.3171718

seems like bureaucracy is a big problem, and where you live. Being compared to North Korea is not something Canada should not want to happen..

Thanks for the link Tekake. The wait times we are currently experiencing for biopsies are longer than those shown on that table. I think I want to go where your SIL's mother lives :) B.C. is a beautiful province!
The doctor's salary is CAD dollars, so about $262,000 US. That's before deductions, and our cost of living here is higher for goods/services. Probably the average salaries are actually pretty comparable for both our countries.
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
No there was another one.

Where is the search button for past threads?

Let me go into my old posts to see if I can find it.
 

VapidLapid

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
4,272
Also, people who are hiv+ will lose their healthcare and treatments. As they go from having a controlled infection, undetectable viral loads, and thus being non-transmisable, they will, unwittingly, become infectious with a vengence. I hope for more hiv+ congressmen, as nothing gets done in this country if it doesn't affect them, or in this case, infect them.
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
Also, people who are hiv+ will lose their healthcare and treatments. As they go from having a controlled infection, undetectable viral loads, and thus being non-transmisable, they will, unwittingly, become infectious with a vengence. I hope for more hiv+ congressmen, as nothing gets done in this country if it doesn't affect them, or in this case, infect them.

Not sure I am following this. Controlled or not, HIV can still be transferred to others through unprotected sexual intercourse.

Only personal responsibility will avoid this.
 

VapidLapid

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
4,272
NO
Controlled infection - undetectable viral load = non-infectious.

Only healthcare for all will avoid this.
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
NO
Controlled infection - undetectable viral load = non-infectious.

Only healthcare for all will avoid this.
So are you saying that those who have their HIV under control do not need to wear a condom?

One thing I have learned about having a chronic condition that even when under control, you still have it and need to be ever vigilant.
 

VapidLapid

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
4,272
you didnt even know how trump care would effect you, Ruby I dont look to you to be up to date about anything. But without education , and current truths rather than alternative facts, people dont know their status, or get the treatments they need to keep husbands on the DL from infecting their wives. And that is best case scenario. Angry possums might become more easily weaponized than sentient muslims.
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
[QUOTE="VapidLapid, post: 4145032, member: 44195"]you didnt even know how trump care would effect you, Ruby I dont look to you to be up to date about anything. But without education , and current truths rather than alternative facts, people dont know their status, or get the treatments they need to keep husbands on the DL from infecting their wives. And that is best case scenario. Angry possums might become more easily weaponized than sentient muslims.[/QUOTE]

Wow. So because at the time (since then I have checked more into it and realized that it was not much better than ObamaCare) that means I do not know nothing.

Best case scenario. If you do not want to catch not only what another person has but everyone else he might have had intercourse with as well, then wear a condom.
 

VapidLapid

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
4,272
you didnt even know how trump care would effect you, Ruby I dont look to you to be up to date about anything. But without education , and current truths rather than alternative facts, people dont know their status, or get the treatments they need to keep husbands on the DL from infecting their wives. And that is best case scenario. Angry possums might become more easily weaponized than sentient muslims.

So are you saying that those who have their HIV under control do not need to wear a condom?

One thing I have learned about having a chronic condition that even when under control, you still have it and need to be ever vigilant.

I know women who are hiv+, can you tell them how to wear a condom? Do you know the differences between infection with HIV and AIDS? Do you know anything about the healthcare of which you are so critical? Do you understand the concept, and the limits of the state securing the public welfare?
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553

VapidLapid

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
4,272
Does the planned parenthood you now quote still exist?

Do you need a diagram of the positions and genders?

Are you only reactionary, or do you have premises/facts that support, that actually guide your conclusions?

I'm sure you are a fine person to have small talk with at the checkout line at costco, but I wouldn't let my children or cousins marry into yours. Now THAT'S planned parenthood.
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
Does the planned parenthood you now quote still exist?

Do you need a diagram of the positions and genders?

Are you only reactionary, or do you have premises/facts that support, that actually guide your conclusions?

I'm sure you are a fine person to have small talk with at the checkout line at costco, but I wouldn't let my children or cousins marry into yours. Now THAT'S planned parenthood.


Wow, you do not like to be proven wrong, do you? That female condom post really got to you.

But that is OK snookums, my family is doing just fine without you.
 

VapidLapid

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
4,272
Proven what? You parade you ignorance like a badge of courage, basking in the delusion that the number of responses makes them supportive accolades. The result is that your friend's husband (if not yours) goes to vegas on a convention, bangs some hot a$$ who doesn't have coverage and treatment, and so does not have an undetectable viral load, in fact, doesn't know the difference, and your friend deludes him or herself into believing it is nothing, but then acts shocked when their diagnosis is full blown aids. I don't deserve this, you/he/she will say, like every one before them.
Do you really think the daily cost of healthcare is particular to the individual's complaint of the day?
 

VapidLapid

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2010
Messages
4,272
and don't call me snookums. we are not friends, and condescension will not make your arguments more convincing.
 

ruby59

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Messages
3,553
Proven what? You parade you ignorance like a badge of courage, basking in the delusion that the number of responses makes them supportive accolades. The result is that your friend's husband (if not yours) goes to vegas on a convention, bangs some hot a$$ who doesn't have coverage and treatment, and so does not have an undetectable viral load, in fact, doesn't know the difference, and your friend deludes him or herself into believing it is nothing, but then acts shocked when their diagnosis is full blown aids. I don't deserve this, you/he/she will say, like every one before them.
Do you really think the daily cost of healthcare is particular to the individual's complaint of the day?

Honey if you go to Vegas and bang some hot a$$, wear a condom. Then you will not have to worry about anything she might be carrying.

See, she might have had an undetectable viral load on her last appointment and then ba*ged 10 men since then and is now reinfected.

Same with a female. Do not depend on the man protect yourself with that female condom you just learned about.
 
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