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Is this how democracy ends?

redwood66

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Calliecake|1484424824|4115341 said:
Red, Just because you don't believe Trump to be a racist doesn't mean the majority of us here share your views. Call me crazy, but I tend to listen to a politician when he/she states his views. When someone shows you who they are, I believe you should believe them. Trump continues to show us exactly who he is.

I have never asked or told anyone to share my views. But I will not sit idly by either. We can have different views on things and still be civil.
 

Tekate

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redwood66|1484416368|4115310 said:
Tekate|1484411132|4115296 said:
If Trump is a racist why is it so far to assume the people who support him are racists also?
So far Trump hasn't even released his tax returns.. previous presidents have.. so yes there are checks and balances, but we will see which ones are used against him by a republican congress..

I don't want to be friendly with Russia. Nope. I don't want to be friendly with China. But do I have a right to force what America thinks on their government? maybe. But the one china policy isn't negotiable I think.. maybe I am wrong.. I have many problems that stand in my way of having any good opinion of Trump.

http://www.people-press.org/2016/12/08/low-approval-of-trumps-transition-but-outlook-for-his-presidency-improves/

The racism mantra about Trump voters is getting quite old. You are not listening to them. On the list of things most important to those voters race relations is quite low. Why does that make them racist? Many Americans in that link you posted think race relations are worse now but that is still not near the top of the list of important factors for Trump voters. The fact that liberals correlate tougher immigration laws and enforcing the laws that exist to racism is just astounding to me. Trump says stupid things but I do not believe he is a racist.

We absolutely need to be tough but fair with Russia and China. But whatever happens needs to benefit the US first.

I believe race relations are at a low because a lot of America was shocked that Obama won.. the continual and constant "Obama is from Africa" birther problem, these things took a toll.. People thought that black Americans would be happy and glad that finally there was a black guy, now go and shut up is basically how I saw it.. didn't happen.

Obama was tough on Russia, look where that got him.. Trump is saying he may drop the sanctions.. There is no integrity in Trump. None. IMHO.
 

redwood66

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Tekate|1484425798|4115350 said:
redwood66|1484416368|4115310 said:
Tekate|1484411132|4115296 said:
If Trump is a racist why is it so far to assume the people who support him are racists also?
So far Trump hasn't even released his tax returns.. previous presidents have.. so yes there are checks and balances, but we will see which ones are used against him by a republican congress..

I don't want to be friendly with Russia. Nope. I don't want to be friendly with China. But do I have a right to force what America thinks on their government? maybe. But the one china policy isn't negotiable I think.. maybe I am wrong.. I have many problems that stand in my way of having any good opinion of Trump.

http://www.people-press.org/2016/12/08/low-approval-of-trumps-transition-but-outlook-for-his-presidency-improves/

The racism mantra about Trump voters is getting quite old. You are not listening to them. On the list of things most important to those voters race relations is quite low. Why does that make them racist? Many Americans in that link you posted think race relations are worse now but that is still not near the top of the list of important factors for Trump voters. The fact that liberals correlate tougher immigration laws and enforcing the laws that exist to racism is just astounding to me. Trump says stupid things but I do not believe he is a racist.

We absolutely need to be tough but fair with Russia and China. But whatever happens needs to benefit the US first.

I believe race relations are at a low because a lot of America was shocked that Obama won.. the continual and constant "Obama is from Africa" birther problem, these things took a toll.. People thought that black Americans would be happy and glad that finally there was a black guy, now go and shut up is basically how I saw it.. didn't happen.

Obama was tough on Russia, look where that got him.. Trump is saying he may drop the sanctions.. There is no integrity in Trump. None. IMHO.

Obama was not tough on Russia until 2 weeks ago.

And I do not agree with you at all on the race issue. Whites voted in Obama. From what I can tell you place no share of responsibility on Obama or blacks for the racial tensions or much else where Obama is concerned. On this we will disagree and should stop this discussion right now.

:wavey:
 

Calliecake

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redwood66|1484425623|4115348 said:
Calliecake|1484424824|4115341 said:
Red, Just because you don't believe Trump to be a racist doesn't mean the majority of us here share your views. Call me crazy, but I tend to listen to a politician when he/she states his views. When someone shows you who they are, I believe you should believe them. Trump continues to show us exactly who he is.

I have never asked or told anyone to share my views. But I will not sit idly by either. We can have different views on things and still be civil.


I also won't sit idly by. Did you feel my reply wasn't civil? You stated that race mantra was getting old. I was merely pointing out that many of us do feel Trump is racist. I'm sorry you are tired of hearing it. Heck he certainly hasn't been trying to hide it. It will interesting what he has to say about BLM now that the investigation into Chicago's police department has been completed.
 

Tekate

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Calliecake|1484430570|4115362 said:
redwood66|1484425623|4115348 said:
Calliecake|1484424824|4115341 said:
Red, Just because you don't believe Trump to be a racist doesn't mean the majority of us here share your views. Call me crazy, but I tend to listen to a politician when he/she states his views. When someone shows you who they are, I believe you should believe them. Trump continues to show us exactly who he is.

I have never asked or told anyone to share my views. But I will not sit idly by either. We can have different views on things and still be civil.


I also won't sit idly by. Did you feel my reply wasn't civil? You stated that race mantra was getting old. I was merely pointing out that many of us do feel Trump is racist. I'm sorry you are tired of hearing it. Heck he certainly hasn't been trying to hide it. It will interesting what he has to say about BLM now that the investigation into Chicago's police department has been completed.

I thought you all might be interested in this writer and his thoughts on living through an autocrat as trump is. Good read, I like the ending the best.. it will end :)

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival/
 

ksinger

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Tekate|1484496077|4115464 said:
Calliecake|1484430570|4115362 said:
redwood66|1484425623|4115348 said:
Calliecake|1484424824|4115341 said:
Red, Just because you don't believe Trump to be a racist doesn't mean the majority of us here share your views. Call me crazy, but I tend to listen to a politician when he/she states his views. When someone shows you who they are, I believe you should believe them. Trump continues to show us exactly who he is.

I have never asked or told anyone to share my views. But I will not sit idly by either. We can have different views on things and still be civil.


I also won't sit idly by. Did you feel my reply wasn't civil? You stated that race mantra was getting old. I was merely pointing out that many of us do feel Trump is racist. I'm sorry you are tired of hearing it. Heck he certainly hasn't been trying to hide it. It will interesting what he has to say about BLM now that the investigation into Chicago's police department has been completed.

I thought you all might be interested in this writer and his thoughts on living through an autocrat as trump is. Good read, I like the ending the best.. it will end :)

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival/

Excellent! Many thanks for the link. :)
 

AGBF

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ksinger|1484500704|4115483 said:
Tekate|1484496077|4115464 said:
I thought you all might be interested in this writer and his thoughts on living through an autocrat as trump is. Good read, I like the ending the best.. it will end :)

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival/

Excellent! Many thanks for the link. :)

Yes, many thanks, Kate. It makes me rethink how I responded to the election myself. My parents always had a subscription to "The New York Review of Books" (it is how I met my husband). I have become too conservative in my old age.

BTW: "Masha" is a woman's name. ;))

AGBF
 

AGBF

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Tekate|1484496077|4115464 said:
I thought you all might be interested in this writer and his thoughts on living through an autocrat as trump is. Good read, I like the ending the best.. it will end :)

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/11/10/trump-election-autocracy-rules-for-survival/

As I said upthread, I loved the article you linked, Kate, and it made me wonder why I was so accepting of Trump as the victore in the election. here is a companion piece to the one you linked. It is an Op-ed piece by Paul Krugman from "The New York Times" and I am excerpting bits of it as well as posting a link to it.

"As a young man, Congressman John Lewis, who represents most of Atlanta, literally put his life on the line in pursuit of justice. As a key civil rights leader, he endured multiple beatings. Most famously, he led the demonstration that came to be known as Bloody Sunday, suffering a fractured skull at the hands of state troopers. Public outrage over that day’s violence helped lead to the enactment of the Voting Rights Act.

Now Mr. Lewis says that he won’t attend the inauguration of Donald Trump, whom he regards as an illegitimate president.

As you might expect, this statement provoked a hysterical, slanderous reaction from the president-elect – who, of course, got his start in national politics by repeatedly, falsely questioning President Obama’s right to hold office. But Mr. Trump — who has never sacrificed anything or taken a risk to help others — seems to have a special animus toward genuine heroes. Maybe he prefers demonstrators who don’t get beaten?

But let’s not talk about Mr. Trump’s ravings. Instead, let’s ask whether Mr. Lewis was right to say what he said. Is it O.K., morally and politically, to declare the man about to move into the White House illegitimate?

Yes, it is. In fact, it’s an act of patriotism.

By any reasonable standard, the 2016 election was deeply tainted. (snip)

Was there even more to it? Did the Trump campaign actively coordinate with a foreign power? Did a cabal within the F.B.I. deliberately slow-walk investigations into that possibility? Are the lurid tales about adventures in Moscow true? We don’t know, although Mr. Trump’s creepy obsequiousness to Vladimir Putin makes it hard to dismiss these allegations. Even given what we do know, however, no previous U.S. president-elect has had less right to the title. So why shouldn’t we question his legitimacy?

And talking frankly about how Mr. Trump gained power isn’t just about truth-telling. It may also help to limit that power.

It would be one thing if the incoming commander in chief showed any hint of humility, of realizing that his duty to the nation requires showing some respect for the strong majority of Americans who voted against him despite Russian meddling and the F.B.I.’s disinformation dump. But he hasn’t and won’t.

Instead, he’s lashing out at and threatening anyone and everyone who criticizes him, while refusing even to admit that he lost the popular vote. And he’s surrounding himself with people who share his contempt for everything that is best in America. What we’re looking at, all too obviously, is an American kakistocracy — rule by the worst.

What can restrain this rule? Well, Congress still has a lot of power to rein the president in. And it would be nice to imagine that there are enough public-spirited legislators to play that role. In particular, just three Republican senators with consciences could do a lot to protect American values.

But Congress will be much more likely to stand up to a rogue, would-be authoritarian executive if its members realize that they will face a political price if they act as his enablers.

What this means is that Mr. Trump must not be treated with personal deference simply because of the position he has managed to seize. He must not be granted the use of the White House as a bully pulpit. He must not be allowed to cloak himself in the majesty of office. Given what we know about this guy’s character, it’s all too clear that granting him unearned respect will just empower him to behave badly.

And reminding people how he got where he is will be an important tool in preventing him from gaining respect he doesn’t deserve. Remember, saying that the election was tainted isn’t a smear or a wild conspiracy theory; it’s simply the truth.

Now, anyone questioning Mr. Trump’s legitimacy will be accused of being unpatriotic — because that’s what people on the right always say about anyone who criticizes a Republican president. (Strangely, they don’t say this about attacks on Democratic presidents.) But patriotism means standing up for your country’s values, not pledging personal allegiance to Dear Leader.

No, we shouldn’t get into the habit of delegitimizing election results we don’t like. But this time really is exceptional, and needs to be treated that way.

So let’s be thankful that John Lewis had the courage to speak out. It was the patriotic, heroic thing to do. And America needs that kind of heroism, now more than ever."



Link...https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/16/opinion/with-all-due-disrespect.html?ribbon-ad-idx=5&src=trending&module=Ribbon&version=origin&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Trending&pgtype=article

AGBF
 

AGBF

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"The New York Times" has collected some essays from thoughtful people about today's inauguration. A couple of them made me think of the central theme of this article Matata posted, of whether we had moved into another stage beyond democracy today.

Here are some excerpts from one essay/article: "Not My President, Not Now, Not Ever".


"I’ve felt a guilty alienation from the chorus of 'not my president' that’s been building among the left since the supposed free election of Donald J. Trump. Not because I have any connection or loyalty to the man, but because the phrase itself is something of a Trumpism: 'Not my president' was a favorite refrain of the Tea Party, a fundamental buttress of the racist delegitimization of Barack Obama, an incantation that, in retrospect, recalled some of the first stirrings of Mr. Trump’s rise to power.

Watching the inauguration — looking over the sea (or, more accurately, the smallish pond) of white faces celebrating what they clearly believe to be a white victory, a reassertion of the natural order — all reluctance left me. Mr. Trump was shoved into office by the desperate, violent and unconstitutional machinations of a minuscule sliver of super-rich, traditionalist white Americans.

...​

Mr. Trump has no intention of representing me, my family, the people I care about, or the majority of Americans, from the imperiled to the comfortable. It is a stretch to call him anyone’s president but his own.

...​

Those who believe that straight, white men have a mandate to burn the rest of us as fuel, to sell us for parts, to mow us down and climb up the pile, never truly conceded that war. They have been biding their time, and this is their last great gambit. But I live in the America that won — the America with art and empathy and a free press and fierce protest. Not my president, not now, not ever."

Link...https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/projects/cp/opinion/presidential-inauguration-2017

Here are excerpts from a second essay/article: "A Clenched Fist for Day 1"

"There was no poetry in the words delivered to a half-empty National Mall on Inauguration Day. But then, nobody expected a hint of verse or a well-turned phrase from President Donald J. Trump.

There were no historical allusions either — at least not direct ones — from a man who is defiantly truant in his knowledge of history.

And there were no concessions to the other side, the vanquished plurality of voters, the woman who missed her place in history, the outgoing president who kept his dignity to the last minute in office, his place in history intact.

What we got, coinciding with the first rain drops falling while Trump spoke to the nation he now leads, was a clenched fist — his own salute of nationalism and defiance, borrowed from political causes rooted in far different passions. He raised the fist while taking his place at the Capitol steps, and again at the close of a dark, soulless speech introducing himself as the leader of the free world.

...​

The chorus of nationalism in the speech — 'From this day forward, it’s going to only be America first. America first' — might even be appealing, had it not those ugly echoes of history. Trump is no doubt ignorant that a similar phrase was used by isolationist, anti-Semitic Americans who aimed to appease Adolf Hitler as it was just becoming clear how much of a monster he would be.

Take Trump, as I’ve said before, not at his word, but for his actions. What we saw on Inauguration Day of the 45th president was the truest sign of how he will rule: not by extending an open hand, but by raising a clenched fist."

AGBF
 

redwood66

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Those essays and the disdain that oozes from them are why Trump was inaugurated today. If the left does not do something about their approach to the regular everyday Joe then they will be in the back seat for a good long while. If you don't care to speak to the everyday Joe then enjoy the view from back there.

JMHO
 
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