Please help me design a perfect tsavorite e-ring!

[PrecisionGem]

I find green the most difficult color to photograph in gemstones, especially the "chrome green" colors. Both tsavorite and chrome green tourmaline, in fine pieces have this color that is hard to describe and harder to photograph. To me the term chrome green seems to imply it well. It's a very rich intense color, that most digital camera's just can't seem to capture. When I upgraded from my Nikon D70 to the D700 I really was hoping that the greens would come out better, but they didn't. I have a cheap Panasonic point and shoot that actually does better with green stones than the Nikon that cost a few thousand dollars more. With that said, it's impossible to compare photo's of tsavorites online from different vendors. You need to consider the camera sensor, the type of light source, and then any post processing used. You could take the same stone, give it to 5 different people to photograph, and the colors, tones, and saturation would be all over the place. Then once the image is posted here, someone will say " I see yellow" or "I see blue" etc. Well you may in the picture, and all you are really judging is a picture, not the stone. It may be fun to do online, but it really isn't very meaningful, especially with green stones.

I hear the troubles of photographing green stones from other, so it's not just limited to Nikon cameras.

 

[chrono]

Correct, my stone is a medium toned, very slightly bluish green tsavorite. I have never seen a blue-green tsavorite and highly doubt there is one. The same goes for a yellow-green tsavorite. The primary colour of a tsavorite is green. Because green is a mixture of blue and yellow, there will be very slightly yellowish green to pure green to very slightly bluish green tsavorites. Tsavorites will colour shift depending on the lighting source. My preference are ones that shift to slightly bluish green under incandescent lighting.

 

[minousbijoux]

Just out of curiosity, have you tried the other vendors? I notice that Roger Dery has some on his website and may have more rough. I think his might be slightly yellowish, but it never hurts to ask. Plus you'd get cutting to die for.

Also, what about Lisa Elser?

 

[minousbijoux]

This tsavorite, although not a medium dark, is showing a very slightly bluish green color. It was also cut by Gene. I have seen tsavorites this color in person, but it is a very rare color. I was at a tsavorite dealer's gem booth about a year ago, and he has a ton of tsavorites. He goes to Africa to buy them. Only one had this color. We were comparing hues, and this was his prize stone.

Oh, TL, you lucky woman! That is truly a spectacular color. I don't think of tsavs as neon, but that one is almost borderline.

I love that stone and setting - thanks for sharing!

 

[minousbijoux]

So Gene, given that we can't get all stones in hand, what would you suggest we do to judge them? Should we go by the saturation level and tone alone and if that meets our needs, ask to see it to judge for ourselves whether it is bluish or yellowish? Should we ask for additional outside shots or some other way of taking its picture? Trust me, I'm not being snarky by asking this, I'm just wondering how you might go about it given the limitations on photography. Thx.

 

[T L]

This tsavorite, although not a medium dark, is showing a very slightly bluish green color. It was also cut by Gene. I have seen tsavorites this color in person, but it is a very rare color. I was at a tsavorite dealer's gem booth about a year ago, and he has a ton of tsavorites. He goes to Africa to buy them. Only one had this color. We were comparing hues, and this was his prize stone.

Oh, TL, you lucky woman! That is truly a spectacular color. I don't think of tsavs as neon, but that one is almost borderline.

I love that stone and setting - thanks for sharing!

That's not my stone, it's Yingh's (although I WISH it were mine).

 

[minousbijoux]

Yingh must be tired of it by now, don't you think? TL, you know her better, why don't you ask her...

 

[T L]

I find green the most difficult color to photograph in gemstones, especially the "chrome green" colors. Both tsavorite and chrome green tourmaline, in fine pieces have this color that is hard to describe and harder to photograph. To me the term chrome green seems to imply it well. It's a very rich intense color, that most digital camera's just can't seem to capture. When I upgraded from my Nikon D70 to the D700 I really was hoping that the greens would come out better, but they didn't. I have a cheap Panasonic point and shoot that actually does better with green stones than the Nikon that cost a few thousand dollars more. With that said, it's impossible to compare photo's of tsavorites online from different vendors. You need to consider the camera sensor, the type of light source, and then any post processing used. You could take the same stone, give it to 5 different people to photograph, and the colors, tones, and saturation would be all over the place. Then once the image is posted here, someone will say " I see yellow" or "I see blue" etc. Well you may in the picture, and all you are really judging is a picture, not the stone. It may be fun to do online, but it really isn't very meaningful, especially with green stones.

I hear the troubles of photographing green stones from other, so it's not just limited to Nikon cameras.

Totally agree with the difficulty in capturing the color green on camera. I have a book that even delves in to how difficult it is to capture emerald color. I think that the best way to buy a tsavorite is to go to a gem show and look at many many different stones, and in different lighting (if the vendor allows for that). When I bought my mint garnet for example, I bought it at a gem show and had the ability to compare it with many different mint garnets. The vendor even allowed me to bring it outside in the sun.

That being said, photos are the best we have as far as PS is concerned, and I think using photos like Yingh's stone, and the one you have currently for sale, Pokey's, etc. . . are only to be judged if that was the color they were IRL - just as a point of reference and to describe color.

 

[anythingorange]

Just out of curiosity, have you tried the other vendors? I notice that Roger Dery has some on his website and may have more rough. I think his might be slightly yellowish, but it never hurts to ask. Plus you'd get cutting to die for.

Also, what about Lisa Elser?

Along these same lines...giff1023, did you ever go to see the All That Glitters stone in person? I think you said that you were going to, but maybe you changed your mind when you learned that the price is firm?

 

[anythingorange]

So Gene, given that we can't get all stones in hand, what would you suggest we do to judge them? Should we go by the saturation level and tone alone and if that meets our needs, ask to see it to judge for ourselves whether it is bluish or yellowish? Should we ask for additional outside shots or some other way of taking its picture? Trust me, I'm not being snarky by asking this, I'm just wondering how you might go about it given the limitations on photography. Thx.

Maybe if there is serious interest in a stone, the vendors could provide a video? I know that takes time, and time is money, so maybe it's not practical. minousbijoux, do you think that would help, or would there still be the same issues with color (green especially)?

 

[giff1023]

I have not been able to see the ATG gem in person. In my first email to them I asked if they had a physical presence and if I could look at their tsavorites (and emeralds), and they responded that they didn't have a storefront and that the majority of their business was with trade, so I'm still waiting to see my first tsavorite in person!

I have been extremely impressed with how helpful vendors have been in helping to educate me. It is the exact opposite feel of a used car salesman (or a Zales chain for that matter). I have not seen Roger or Lisa's sites yet, but will go take a look right now - I thought I had looked through the entire recommended list, but apparently not. Also, Prima has a new lot this week, so I will be in touch with Jaimeen to see if he has anything that could be recut for me (no cushions).

 

[anythingorange]

I have not been able to see the ATG gem in person. In my first email to them I asked if they had a physical presence and if I could look at their tsavorites (and emeralds), and they responded that they didn't have a storefront and that the majority of their business was with trade, so I'm still waiting to see my first tsavorite in person!

I have been extremely impressed with how helpful vendors have been in helping to educate me. It is the exact opposite feel of a used car salesman (or a Zales chain for that matter). I have not seen Roger or Lisa's sites yet, but will go take a look right now - I thought I had looked through the entire recommended list, but apparently not. Also, Prima has a new lot this week, so I will be in touch with Jaimeen to see if he has anything that could be recut for me (no cushions).

You may not have to wait much longer! The International Gem & Jewelry Show (Intergem) will be in Marlborough, MA at the Royal Plaza Trade Center on March 23-25:

http://intergem.com/upcoming

 

[T L]

I have not been able to see the ATG gem in person. In my first email to them I asked if they had a physical presence and if I could look at their tsavorites (and emeralds), and they responded that they didn't have a storefront and that the majority of their business was with trade, so I'm still waiting to see my first tsavorite in person!

I have been extremely impressed with how helpful vendors have been in helping to educate me. It is the exact opposite feel of a used car salesman (or a Zales chain for that matter). I have not seen Roger or Lisa's sites yet, but will go take a look right now - I thought I had looked through the entire recommended list, but apparently not. Also, Prima has a new lot this week, so I will be in touch with Jaimeen to see if he has anything that could be recut for me (no cushions).

If you've never bought a tsavorite in person before, I don't think you should be buying one online. Sorry to say that, but you really need to go to a show, otherwise, you're likely to be smitten with a stone that's probably not that great. Jaimeen frequents the Intergem shows, so if you can get to one, that would be optimal. It's funny, but we fall in love with certain gems that we own until we get to a large gem show, where there are other examples of the same species/color, and then we fall out of love with what we have. For example, a lot of people do not know what a truly neon paraiba is until they see one in person. Before that, they think any blue tourmaline is neon. I'm generalizing, but trying to get a point across.

 

[PrecisionGem]

So Gene, given that we can't get all stones in hand, what would you suggest we do to judge them? Should we go by the saturation level and tone alone and if that meets our needs, ask to see it to judge for ourselves whether it is bluish or yellowish? Should we ask for additional outside shots or some other way of taking its picture? Trust me, I'm not being snarky by asking this, I'm just wondering how you might go about it given the limitations on photography. Thx.

That's a good question. I think one thing you can do is work with dealers you trust, and have built a dialog with, then ask the questions about the stone and the color. I have one customer that always asks be a list of questions before he buys anything. And he will even say; "do you think this is a stone I would like?" Since he has been a customer for some time, I know what he likes and I have steered him away from stones, and have recommended stones to him. Im not sure posting a picture online, and then ask the "experts" here if they see yellow or green or gray or blue, and then basing a decision on that what they think they see on their monitor is the best route to go however.

I have thought about purchasing thehttp://www.gemdialogue.com system. But then you would really need the same system on your end. GIA used to make a gem color set years ago, they are almost impossible to find used any more.

 

[Arkteia]

Great stone, TL!
Green becomes another red it seems.

 

[T L]

So Gene, given that we can't get all stones in hand, what would you suggest we do to judge them? Should we go by the saturation level and tone alone and if that meets our needs, ask to see it to judge for ourselves whether it is bluish or yellowish? Should we ask for additional outside shots or some other way of taking its picture? Trust me, I'm not being snarky by asking this, I'm just wondering how you might go about it given the limitations on photography. Thx.

That's a good question. I think one thing you can do is work with dealers you trust, and have built a dialog with, then ask the questions about the stone and the color. I have one customer that always asks be a list of questions before he buys anything. And he will even say; "do you think this is a stone I would like?" Since he has been a customer for some time, I know what he likes and I have steered him away from stones, and have recommended stones to him. Im not sure posting a picture online, and then ask the "experts" here if they see yellow or green or gray or blue, and then basing a decision on that what they think they see on their monitor is the best route to go however.

I have thought about purchasing thehttp://www.gemdialogue.com system. But then you would really need the same system on your end. GIA used to make a gem color set years ago, they are almost impossible to find used any more.

While I do understand that people see different things on different monitors, I think many of us have saved a lot of people from a bad purchase. The problem is that while you as a vendor may be trusted to provide the honest truth about a stone, not all vendors are like that. I've seen time and time again that someone posted a horrible, hideous stone, and the vendor calls it "vivid this" or "pigeon blood that" or "royal something else" or "super neon." There are some photoshop techniques that many of us have been privy too, and when you see something like that, or just a stone that's so horrible, there's no way it could look that much better IRL, it helps to bring it up here. This is, after all, a consumer forum. Even if the photo is horrible, I think the advice to make a judgement based on the color of the photo and by saying "it shouldn't look like that IRL" is very helpful. The stone may look much better IRL, but at least one can educate the consumer by judging the color on the photo that way.

 

[PrecisionGem]

TL, your last post I think is pretty accurate. You can certainly make some recommendations on stones from images. What I think you can't do is read too much into them, and then compare a few stones from different sites looking for subtle secondary colors. Nothing beats seeing the stone in person.

What do you think about the Gemdialogue system? Should I invest in it?

 

[T L]

TL, your last post I think is pretty accurate. You can certainly make some recommendations on stones from images. What I think you can't do is read too much into them, and then compare a few stones from different sites looking for subtle secondary colors. Nothing beats seeing the stone in person.

What do you think about the Gemdialogue system? Should I invest in it?

Sorry Gene,
I don't know much about Gemdialogue.

 

[minousbijoux]

So Gene, given that we can't get all stones in hand, what would you suggest we do to judge them? Should we go by the saturation level and tone alone and if that meets our needs, ask to see it to judge for ourselves whether it is bluish or yellowish? Should we ask for additional outside shots or some other way of taking its picture? Trust me, I'm not being snarky by asking this, I'm just wondering how you might go about it given the limitations on photography. Thx.

I think one thing you can do is work with dealers you trust, and have built a dialog with, then ask the questions about the stone and the color. Im not sure posting a picture online, and then ask the "experts" here if they see yellow or green or gray or blue, and then basing a decision on that what they think they see on their monitor is the best route to go however.

I have thought about purchasing thehttp://www.gemdialogue.com system. But then you would really need the same system on your end. GIA used to make a gem color set years ago, they are almost impossible to find used any more.

Good advice. I totally agree with this, and am really grateful when dealers I have worked with give me their honest opinions knowing my tastes. This is so rewarding, and in the best of worlds, would be the way to go. Sometimes, though, its not that easy, as in the case at hand where the OP wants a certain stone and is casting a wide net. In this case, without some universal system like the gemdialogue system you mentioned, the OP must take a gamble and choose one or two based on the vendors photos and descriptions, or incur a lot of postage costs to see a multitude of stones. I don't know. I am grateful that as hard as online selling is, there are so many of you who do it and understand that occasional returns come with the territory.

 

[chel180]

This tsavorite, although not a medium dark, is showing a very slightly bluish green color. It was also cut by Gene. I have seen tsavorites this color in person, but it is a very rare color. I was at a tsavorite dealer's gem booth about a year ago, and he has a ton of tsavorites. He goes to Africa to buy them. Only one had this color. We were comparing hues, and this was his prize stone.

That is the most lush color!

 

[giff1023]

Wow, what a busy month! I certainly did not mean to go this long without an update...

I have been corresponding with Bruce while I've been out of town this last month, and he sent me two stones that we discussed. The first is a 2.1 ct from earlier in the thread that is "medium-dark", and the second is a 1.5ct antique cushion that is described as "medium-plus" color.

My initial impression is that 2ct is too big, and that I really prefer the cut of the antique cushion. After spending a very frustrating 15 minutes trying to capture the color of these, I completely sympathize with vendors! In real life, I think both stones are darker than Bruce's photos and lighter than mine, with the 1.5ct being just a shade lighter, particularly in direct light. I also find the antique cushion to be very sparkly and lively! Certainly more so than the 2.1ct stone (which is a nice color, but a little dark for me).

I will try to find a macro lens for my camera to better capture the stones, but I really like the antique cushion (1.5ct).

Again, thank you for all of the help so far! I would never have made it this far without all of the feedback and recommendations from the PS community!

Bruce's photos here:

http://i44.tinypic.com/30ug2va.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/lct4l.jpg

And a couple side by side that I took... pardon my lack of a macro lens (and fingerprints)!
Indoors/artificial lighting:
http://i40.tinypic.com/bziw9.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/k19v2s.jpg

Outdoors/natural:
http://i40.tinypic.com/s0wlxi.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/2lca6p2.jpg