Trayvon Martin. Why are we not talking about this?

[Gypsy]

Ok help me out here.

In 2010, the Florida Supreme Court ruled that when a criminal defendant files a motion to dismiss asserting that he was immune from criminal prosecution because his actions were a justified use of force under Florida statute 776.032, the trial court should conduct an evidentiary hearing and decide the factual question of the applicability of the statutory immunity. A defendant who asserts immunity has the burden of establishing the factual prerequisites to the immunity claim by a preponderance of the evidence (a much lower standard than “beyond a reasonable doubt.”). Thus, a defendant who establishes entitlement to immunity avoids being subjected to trial/jury.

The Florida Supreme Court specifically “reject[ed] the State’s contention that the pretrial hearing on immunity in a criminal case should test merely whether the State has probable cause to believe the defendant’s use of force was not legally justified.”

If the trial court denies the motion to dismiss, the defendant may submit the issue to the jury as an affirmative defense in his criminal trial. At trial, after the defendant makes a showing of self defense, the State must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant did not act in self defense.

So whether or not the use of force was justified is irrelevant in applicability of the Stand Your Ground immunity. WOW. That's really crazy. And (IMO) wrong.

So, if say in this case, Zimmerman's claims he was entitled to kill Martin due to the Stand Your Ground law, does that make him immune from being charged? Or should it go before an evidentiary hearing to determine?

I probably need to read the links, but to be honest even the above quotes make my head hurt trying to understand.

From what I understand, it CAN go to an evidentiary hearing. I'm not sure if it's compulsory in every instance of the invocation of that statute though. Should be (IMO), but I don't know if it actually IS.

Must I repeat that the federal government used to use its powers to intervene when a black person was killed by a white person in a southern state with atavistic laws? Once there was a Civil Rights Act the federal government was able to sue white individuals who took the lives of black individuals-lawfully under the state laws of the south-based on their having deprived the black individuals of their civil rights...like the right to breathe while being black.

Deb/AGBF

AGBF, I don't understand what you are saying here. I really don't. Are you trying to draw a parrallel and say that the State of Florida is using this law (or maybe the prosecutors office and the cops ) to protect a white(ish) man from prosecution for killing a black teen in some conspiracy?

 

[Gypsy]

AGBF, I don't understand what you are saying here. I really don't. Are you trying to draw a parrallel and say that the State of Florida is using this law (or maybe the prosecutors office and the cops ) to protect a white(ish) man from prosecution for killing a black teen in some conspiracy?

Or maybe you are trying to say that the (intended) consequence of this law is that it creates/supports racial inequality because the white man will always be the one Standing His Ground and the black man will always be the one breaking in?

And if that is what you are saying I kinda find it offensive because well, it assumes that the black man is the one breaking in.

That aside though.... why do you have to bring race into it at all.

Make Trayvon Hispanic or half Hispanic like George. Heck make him PURPLE. It's irrelevant. This law is allowing a potential injustice to occur. That makes it a BAD LAW.

And a law can be a bad one without it resulting in African Americans being kept down by "the man".

I mean really... If you are saying what I think you are saying. I'm sorry but you are part of the problem. Seeing boogie men in everything and blaming race and creating division where there is NO PROOF of any.

You want to help this country? Help heal. Don't help it break apart further.

A bad law can be just a bad law without it being a racist one too.

 

[beebrisk]

AGBF, I don't understand what you are saying here. I really don't. Are you trying to draw a parrallel and say that the State of Florida is using this law (or maybe the prosecutors office and the cops ) to protect a white(ish) man from prosecution for killing a black teen in some conspiracy?

Or maybe you are trying to say that the (intended) consequence of this law is that it creates/supports racial inequality because the white man will always be the one Standing His Ground and the black man will always be the one breaking in?

And if that is what you are saying I kinda find it offensive because well, it assumes that the black man is the one breaking in.

That aside though.... why do you have to bring race into it at all.

Make Trayvon Hispanic or half Hispanic like George. Heck make him PURPLE. It's irrelevant. This law is allowing a potential injustice to occur. That makes it a BAD LAW.

And a law can be a bad one without it resulting in African Americans being kept down by "the man".

I mean really... If you are saying what I think you are saying. I'm sorry but you are part of the problem. Seeing boogie men in everything and blaming race and creating division where there is NO PROOF of any.

You want to help this country? Help heal. Don't help it break apart further.

A bad law can be just a bad law without it being a racist one too.

If Trayvon Martin shot George Zimmerman, those condemning him to guilt; tweeting his address; photoshopping crosshairs on his mug shot; calling for civil unrest; marching in the streets; placing a bounty on his head and promising retaliation would be labeled unmitigated racists.

And that's the sad truth. So many that claim to be the "unifying" forces in our country are much more interested in further dividing us.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I listened to the last 5 calls that George Zimmerman made to police. 4 out of 5 (including the Trayvon call) were reporting suspicious black men, both plural and single. The other call was about children of mixed race playing in the street.

Of course I don't know for a fact if this is a race based incident, but I think it does have to be considered. I think that what Deb is trying to say is the Federal Law can overturn the Florida law if the Gov. finds that GZ actions were race based. Yes, she is giving weight to race being a factor, as I am. You don't have to, but as I said it deserves a look see. Thats how laws are changed.

Mary Poppins , thanks for that great link.


Annette

 

[minousbijoux]

Hi,

I listened to the last 5 calls that George Zimmerman made to police. 4 out of 5 (including the Trayvon call) were reporting suspicious black men, both plural and single. The other call was about children of mixed race playing in the street.

Of course I don't know for a fact if this is a race based incident, but I think it does have to be considered. I think that what Deb is trying to say is the Federal Law can overturn the Florida law if the Gov. finds that GZ actions were race based. Yes, she is giving weight to race being a factor, as I am. You don't have to, but as I said it deserves a look see. Thats how laws are changed.

Mary Poppins , thanks for that great link.


Annette

Well said. There are two issues re the law: 1) whether it was correctly applied in this circumstance; and 2) whether it should exist at all. I read Deb's response as stating simply that there is a solution in the event that this law is applied inconsistently to discriminate - responding to the second issue. The first issue, whether the law was correctly applied in this particular case, is the question and it is hard to avoid the race factors - particularly as Zimmerman has apparently, consistently, raised them.

 

[mary poppins]

Mary, those were wonderful posts. I enjoyed them and learned from them, and they helped me understand a bit what the goal of these laws (which I still don't agree should exist really) are.

Thank you!

Glad to hear the posts were helpful.

As to the Treyvon case... this is especially helpful (even if it makes me shake my head):" The Florida Supreme Court specifically 'reject[ed] the State’s contention that the pretrial hearing on immunity in a criminal case should test merely whether the State has probable cause to believe the defendant’s use of force was not legally justified.'"

It is my understanding that the theory is since statute provides immunity under certain circumstances, if the defendant can show at a pre-trial hearing that he meets the requirements to claim immunity, he shouldn't have to go through the time, expense and risk of a full blown trial. A showing of probable cause by the state at a pre-trial hearing would just send the defendant to trial which defeats the purpose of the statute. The state still would have had to show probable cause to arrest.

So whether or not the use of force was justified is irrelevant in applicability of the Stand Your Ground immunity. WOW. That's really crazy. And (IMO) wrong.

I believe one of the issues the judge determines during the evidentiary hearing on defendant's motion to dismiss on grounds of immunity is whether the force was justifiable or excessive.

And if this was previously decided by the Supreme Court this kind of goat rodeo was inevitable in some ways. And the Legislature's claims that they are appalled and dismayed and shocked doesn't quite ring true as they could have amended the law to contradict the Supreme Court if they disagreed with the interpretation. At least, that's what I get out of it.

The rodeo was inevitable as soon as the statute, which practically allows a free for all against everyone, went into effect in 2005.

 

[littlelysser]

*

 

[Imdanny]

I gave a link earlier to one of the statutes (I just looked but can't find my post- I'm on my phone- too frustrating).

Anyway, IMO (just my opinion) Zimmerman is exempted from this laws protection. IMO he is categorically exempt because he provoked the confrontation. I believe that the lead investigator would have seen it this way too. He's the one who did not believe Zimmerman's story and pressed for manslaughter charges. Particularly troubling is that, there seems to be no (none, zero) evidence of the injuries Zimmerman and Sanford police claim (no medical record, and not even a simple photograph taken by police) yet there is that video of Zimmerman and his clothing within hours of the shooting AND police never talked to the girlfriend who was on the phone with Martin when this happened.

I hope someone credible, the FBI would be my first choice, gets to the bottom of this mess soon.

 

[lulu]

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/nbc-launches-internal-investigation-of-misleadingly-edited-zimmerman-911-call/

 

[lulu]

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

I think I have to correct what i said about the Fed overturning Florida law. I think Deb was saying that Zimmerman could be charged under the Federal Civil Rights laws if he is not arrested and convicted under the Florida statutes. I don't think the Fed gov't charges would change Florida laws. Just a different charge. Sorry Deb--did not explain properly the first time.


Yes the media is looking bad. Whatever happened to good journalism?

Annette

 

[Imdanny]

Deb, I just read today the FBI is on the ground in Sanford investigating possible civil rights violations. I tried to cut and paste a link but couldn't get the phone to cooperate.

 

[missy]

Deb, I just read today the FBI is on the ground in Sanford investigating possible civil rights violations. I tried to cut and paste a link but couldn't get the phone to cooperate.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/02/10983757-fbi-questions-people-in-trayvon-martin-case-begins-parallel-investigation

 

[Imdanny]

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/

First, this says may show laceration or scar. If there had been a "laceration" it would have required treatment, lacerations of scalp blee profusely and require stitches. Scar in that amount of time, yeah, no.

Also, If he had a broken nose, it would have been xrayed. That is a very dangerous sition. Bone fragments can lodge in the brain. If he had head lacerations, they would have been stitched or stapled. If he had a possible head injury, he would have been tested to make sure the brain wasn't swelling.

A head injury is a serious thing. Swelling in the brain can lead to coma and death. It is not something you are allowed to accept a band-aid or alcohol wipe for in the back of a policecar.

 

[Imdanny]

Deb, I just read today the FBI is on the ground in Sanford investigating possible civil rights violations. I tried to cut and paste a link but couldn't get the phone to cooperate.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/02/10983757-fbi-questions-people-in-trayvon-martin-case-begins-parallel-investigation

Yes, that's it. Thank you.

 

[missy]

Deb, I just read today the FBI is on the ground in Sanford investigating possible civil rights violations. I tried to cut and paste a link but couldn't get the phone to cooperate.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/02/10983757-fbi-questions-people-in-trayvon-martin-case-begins-parallel-investigation

Yes, that's it. Thank you.

You're very welcome. I hate posting from my phone too. It's very difficult.

 

[lulu]

Did you watch the enhanced video, Danny? The blood had already been cleaned up by EMS. Sure looks like an injury to me. All I've been saying is withhold judgment.

 

[Gypsy]

Did you watch the enhanced video, Danny? The blood had already been cleaned up by EMS. Sure looks like an injury to me. All I've been saying is withhold judgment.

Agree.


I've cracked my skull and been sent home from the ER with a concussion and been told to not sleep for more than two hours straight and that's it. A concussion is brain swelling. They don't keep you for observation or anything for that unless you are sports star.

 

[GlamMosher]

Did you watch the enhanced video, Danny? The blood had already been cleaned up by EMS. Sure looks like an injury to me. All I've been saying is withhold judgment.

It looks like a shadow to me, as it goes away when he moves his head to a different angle.

Plus I would think he would have to just about be dropped on his head to have an injury at that spot. I would think an injury from banging someone's head on the pavement would be much lower, at the roundest part of the head.

I await being corrected on this.

 

[GlamMosher]

I've cracked my skull and been sent home from the ER with a concussion and been told to not sleep for more than two hours straight and that's it. A concussion is brain swelling. They don't keep you for observation or anything for that unless you are sports star.

I would think police have a much higher duty of care in case he collapsed whilst in their custody, at least that is the situation here. I'm not saying he would have been admitted to hospital, but I am sure the police would have needed to have any head wounds seen to straight away, for their own legalities.

 

[Gypsy]

I've cracked my skull and been sent home from the ER with a concussion and been told to not sleep for more than two hours straight and that's it. A concussion is brain swelling. They don't keep you for observation or anything for that unless you are sports star.

I would think police have a much higher duty of care in case he collapsed whilst in their custody, at least that is the situation here. I'm not saying he would have been admitted to hospital, but I am sure the police would have needed to have any head wounds seen to straight away, for their own legalities.

The EMT's can do that on site. So there is no duty of care for the police to take him to the hospital if the EMT's released him into their custody. They probably said that if there was any further issue to take him to the hospital. And that's all the police were required to do. He didn't collapse in custody so the point is moot. If he had... well, that's what those sirens are for.

I actually cracked my skull (on an x-ray and everything) and that's pretty much all that happened. Got checked out and was told not to sleep for more than 2 hours straight and to come back if I felt x,y,z.... There is not a lot they can do, and if it's not serious the interrogation of a man that killed another is going to take precedence over taking a guy with a concussion to the hospital when the hospital can't do anything for him.

That doesn't mean a person with a concussion doesn't have an injury that could have impaired his judgement when it happened, or rung his bell making him think he was in more danger than he actually was. I didn't "collapse" when I was sent home from the hospital either, but when it first happened I was knocked silly and nearly blacked out and for the first ten minutes or so and couldn't see straight and my ears were ringing badly.

 

[AGBF]

I think I have to correct what i said about the Fed overturning Florida law. I think Deb was saying that Zimmerman could be charged under the Federal Civil Rights laws if he is not arrested and convicted under the Florida statutes. I don't think the Fed gov't charges would change Florida laws. Just a different charge. Sorry Deb--did not explain properly the first time.

That's right on the money. Thanks, Annette.

Gypsy, you wrote, among other things:

"why do you have to bring race into it at all."

"I'm sorry but you are part of the problem."

and

"You want to help this country? Help heal. Don't help it break apart further".

My answer is that I am not "bringing race into" this issue; this issue is all about race. I dispute that I am "part of the problem" since I define the problem as racism (on the part of George Zimmerman and those who would allow him to get away with the the killing of Trayvon Martin) and I am not furthering racism. I do not recall saying that I wanted to help this country. I am not sure where you got that tidbit. If I did want to help the country, however, I would certainly not try to "heal" a wound that was still festering and oozing pus by placing a bandaid over it. I would insist that the wound be opened, examined, cleansed, and dosed with antiseptic before I bound the skin around it shut.

Deb/AGBF

 

[Gypsy]

I think I have to correct what i said about the Fed overturning Florida law. I think Deb was saying that Zimmerman could be charged under the Federal Civil Rights laws if he is not arrested and convicted under the Florida statutes. I don't think the Fed gov't charges would change Florida laws. Just a different charge. Sorry Deb--did not explain properly the first time.

That's right on the money. Thanks, Annette.

Gypsy, you wrote, among other things:

"why do you have to bring race into it at all."

"I'm sorry but you are part of the problem."

and

"You want to help this country? Help heal. Don't help it break apart further".

My answer is that I am not "bringing race into" this issue; this issue is all about race. I dispute that I am "part of the problem" since I define the problem as racism (on the part of George Zimmerman and those who would allow him to get away with the the killing of Trayvon Martin) and I am not furthering racism. I do not recall saying that I wanted to help this country. I am not sure where you got that tidbit. If I did want to help the country, however, I would certainly not try to "heal" a wound that was still festering and oozing pus by placing a bandaid over it. I would insist that the wound be opened, examined, cleansed, and dosed with antiseptic before I bound the skin around it shut.

Deb/AGBF

Defining every situation that involves a black person and a non-black person as being a race issue without sufficient evidence is furthering racism. In fact, it's the definition of BEING a racist.

The wounds have been examined Deb, you just keep picking at it and all you are doing is keeping it from scabbing and healing. You aren't doing anything to help it at all. In fact, all you are doing is delaying any chance of healing and probably introducing new bacteria to the wound that makes the wound worse.

Forgiveness doesn't come from imagining, creating and finding new things to fight over.

If your children are fighting for years. Do you continuously remind them of their differences or do you encourage them to find their similarities?

Same thing here. Instead of just saying that this a a horrible HUMAN tragedy that we should all mourn because it happened you are creating division.

And the fact that you can't even see this is why you are part of the problem. And will continue to be, clearly. And that's just sad.

 

[CaprineSun]

Did you watch the enhanced video, Danny? The blood had already been cleaned up by EMS. Sure looks like an injury to me. All I've been saying is withhold judgment.

Agree.


I've cracked my skull and been sent home from the ER with a concussion and been told to not sleep for more than two hours straight and that's it. A concussion is brain swelling. They don't keep you for observation or anything for that unless you are sports star.

At the bolded, no, it is not.
If anyone has brain swelling, better known as cerebral edema, they would not only be admitted, but in the ICU.

 

[Imdanny]

Did you watch the enhanced video, Danny? The blood had already been cleaned up by EMS. Sure looks like an injury to me. All I've been saying is withhold judgment.

It looks like male pattern baldness to me.

Look, this isn't complicated. I've read Zimmernans accounts leaked by the Sanford police to the Orlando Sentinel, I've listed to his father, his brother, his lawyer, and his so call friend.

I know what Zimmerman claimed.

All I'm asking for is proof of injuries Zimmerman says he sustained after supposedly being sucker punched to the ground, beaten in the head. And having the back of his head slammed with life and death force into concrete repeatedly.

A person who had been bashed like that might have the injuries Zimmerman claimed. A person who was beaten to the ground, beaten some more, and who had his the back of his head beaten into concrete repeatedly should have proof of the injuries. Zimmerman was got up quickly, moved around fine, and had no injuries according to a witness. The same Zimmerman is shown in 6 minutes of police station footage. If Zimmerman or the Sandford police have any medical evidence of these alleged injuuries, none of us is the wiser.

 

[Gypsy]

Did you watch the enhanced video, Danny? The blood had already been cleaned up by EMS. Sure looks like an injury to me. All I've been saying is withhold judgment.

Agree.


I've cracked my skull and been sent home from the ER with a concussion and been told to not sleep for more than two hours straight and that's it. A concussion is brain swelling. They don't keep you for observation or anything for that unless you are sports star.

At the bolded, no, it is not.
If anyone has brain swelling, better known as cerebral edema, they would not only be admitted, but in the ICU.

Wow. It took you 13 pages but you've finally found something that I am wrong about and you are right about. Maybe you should stick to medical issues and skip the legal ones.

I consider myself corrected. A concussion is a brain that's been rattled around. http://www.webmd.com/brain/tc/traumatic-brain-injury-concussion-overview

See. When *I* am wrong. I admit it.

 

[Imdanny]

Did you watch the enhanced video, Danny? The blood had already been cleaned up by EMS. Sure looks like an injury to me. All I've been saying is withhold judgment.

Agree.


I've cracked my skull and been sent home from the ER with a concussion and been told to not sleep for more than two hours straight and that's it. A concussion is brain swelling. They don't keep you for observation or anything for that unless you are sports star.

At the bolded, no, it is not.
If anyone has brain swelling, better known as cerebral edema, they would not only be admitted, but in the ICU.

Proof has now been released that there was a second ambulance for Zimmerman, and it was called off.

If he had a broken nose, had just been severely beaten, and had the back of his head pounded violently into concrete for minutes- NO WAY.

 

[GlamMosher]

Proof has now been released that there was a second ambulance for Zimmerman, and it was called off.

If he had a broken nose, had just been severely beaten, and had the back of his head pounded violently into concrete for minutes- NO WAY.

Thanks Danny. I was going to post a bit ago, but got distracted, when Gypsy said:

The EMT's can do that on site. So there is no duty of care for the police to take him to the hospital if the EMT's released him into their custody. They probably said that if there was any further issue to take him to the hospital. And that's all the police were required to do. He didn't collapse in custody so the point is moot. If he had... well, that's what those sirens are for.

that I couldn't recall reading anywhere that he had been examined by EMT, just that the police had attended to his "wounds". If the EMT had seen him, there would at least be a definite record of it.

 

[biggerliz]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/02/nbc-news-trayvon-martin-internal-investigation_n_1396442.html

It seems to me that clearly, many of our original assumptions have wavered or changed. As many of us in this thread can attest to, and I as well, the original outrage demanded immediate retribution (justice). However, given that the majority of us know little more than what the news sources are providing, and even the news sources are providing contradictory information, it seems prudent for us to hold judgement and just be patient.

I have read most of these posts, and now, more than ever, common sense tells us that an arrest at this current juncture would serve little purpose, as the news available to the public would be insufficient to return a guilty verdict for type of capital offense.

I believe we can all agree that a young child is dead, and a hispanic man, claiming self-defense, is free. Not much aside from those two facts can be confidently stated.

 

[lulu]

Gypsy, how dare you accuse someone of wanting to help their country! You take that back!