Being a lawyer and a mother

[Jennifer W]

Re: the commuter rail, ditto Octavia-it is very unreliable. I certainly wouldn't want to count on it to get you to a job that you're hoping will turn into a full time offer. I took it for about 6 months and I can't tell you how many times it was cancelled entirely or late for no reason whatsoever. If you don't want to live in the city, you might want to consider living in a suburb of Philly where you can drive in to work if necessary.

(And disregard this if you're talking about living in Philly and commuting to Wilmington!)

Thing2, my favorite was one 72 degree June morning, sun shining brightly and not a cloud in the sky, when I was waiting for my train and the loudspeaker came on to tell us it was delayed up to 30 minutes "due to...weather related reasons." Umm, yeah. Try again, SEPTA.

.

Octavia, bit of a threadjack, but the reasons announced for trains being delayed in the UK have included:

This train will be delayed due to:
"make something up"
"the wrong kind of snow"
"chronic under-investment in the railway infrastructure"
and (my personal favourite) "sheer bl**dy incompetence."

 

[MissStepcut]

Again, I really appreciate everyone's in-put. I didn't start this thread because I had my mind made up about how it should be. Frankly, we've only known about the pregnancy for a few days. I hate to move to NY because I sincerely believe my smaller firm in a secondary market is saner than anything I could do in NY (since gov't isn't hiring). But I also don't know that taking SO out of his prestigious NY firm makes sense either. Maybe it makes the most sense for both of us to try to lateral to a different city with a better mix of employers. Maybe I have to bite the bullet and try to get to NY after SO clerks. Or maybe I could clerk for a couple terms first. I really didn't think the commute was bad since I'd done it via Acela during my callback, but I know even Acela has reliability issues. That information is definitely helpful.

I definitely feel lucky to have you guys as a resource.

 

[winternight]

First of all law firms aren't all the same and within each firm the culture of the practice group varies greatly. My DH has been in Biglaw for years, makes great money and has very reasonable hours. But he also found a great group, works with a reasonable partner and most importantly sets limits. I was in the federal gov't for seven years and it was good but my career wasn't going to more forward for at least a decade. I was getting headhunting calls and I was interviewing when I got pregnant - planned but still challenging. My firm knew that I was on maternity leave and extended me an offer. Then again I had lunch today with someone who told me about the nightmare of working part-time in her firm - I would be very cautious about part-time, I've never seen it go well.

I had some women give me a hard time about my choice to go private and tell me I'd feel differently when my baby was here very often suggesting I'd be "less" of a mother for working or working private vs. public. Never did one guy say anything negative!

So I think you should hear what people don't seem to talk about. Staying at home is exhausting. I love my daughter but now that I'm working, I have more, not less, energy for her. I think you should strongly consider a mother's helper during your time off if FMIL doesn't work out - and I do think you need a firm day/time committment from her.

Like I said we have a fantastic nanny that we pay well to give her lots of attention during the day when we aren't home. It was hard going back at first but my daughter gets so excited to see the nanny in the morning and my husband and I at night - she is just a happy baby. I also feel that as a working mother I'll be a role model to my daughter and that she's be motivated to have a career for herself. As for my husband he is completely supportive. Marriage and raising children is a partnership - I hate that if you were a guy everyone would think you were so ambitious for your baby's future.

And besides the fact that any relationship can end, single income households are very stressful for the men (usually it is the men). Having two incomes hedges risk and takes the pressure off. We have so many friends where the guys are freaking out about money/career when they have a kid. Not a fun way to live. Never being stressed about money is a great thing, and frankly after seeing layoffs and people in their 50s-60s lose so much during the financial crisis I'm never putting myself and my family through that.

PS Please make your commute as short as possible - the times your planning to commute are just nuts if you want to have the energy to make a good impression & not burn out.

 

[winternight]

I will say that I have heard from many people that NY is an especially tough market regarding hours for attorneys. DC seems to be better for the most part.

Lateraling is always easier if you're going from a big name firm to something else, even gov't. Actually some places in gov't won't even take you as a lateral unless you're coming from a firm --- I've heard for example that the SEC almost exclusively takes laterals from firms. Clerking is great - I did it - but you just need to be a little focused on where you want to go afterwards. I think 2 years is the max since if you want a firm job 3-5th year is the easiest time to lateral from what I've seen. And I really do think you'll both be much happier if you can pay some of that debt off- at least the private loans.

 

[pandora21524]

I just finished up a 3+ year stint as an associate in NY Biglaw, and agree with Sillyberry about the demands and the hours. I was in litigation. There were many, many nights where I left around 5 or 6am and was back in by 8. Some of those were weekend nights, and they always seem to happen all in a row. I live about a 5 minute walk from my firm, so I never spent the night there, but I did keep a pillow and a blanket in my office (afternoon naps after long nights!) and know a lot of people who spent nights on the floor. Even though it's ridiculous and inefficient to have people who are that exhausted trying to work, there unfortunately wasn't really any way to get around it (I sure tried ).

That being said, while I don't have any kids, I do know a lot of ladies who did, and they made it work even though it was hard. My firm had a pretty good PT / flex work schedule so that working mothers (and fathers, but the fathers basically never did it) could have 60-80% schedules (where FT is supposedly 2000 hours) and / or could arrange to work from home a certain number o/user#f days per week. Often mothers would leave the office around 6 or so, put their kids to bed, and then log back in remotely around 9 or so to finish up the day's work, so working until 11 or midnight most of the time. Those schedules don't work perfectly - there were definitely times where ladies had to come in on their reduced schedule days off or had to stay much later than they planned. I think the main problem with the reduced schedule program is that my firm (and probably others) didn't ever staff additional people on the cases to compensate for it, which meant that when one associate went on a reduced schedule the others all had to pick up the extra hours. If the other associates on the case weren't able to compensate because they were too busy on other stuff (the 2000 hour FT expectation being a lie), then the person on the reduced schedule would just have to put in the extra hours. I think that in the end, most people on reduced schedule ended up working more than they were supposed to (the firm was supposed to gross up their compensation at year end) but their hours were still much better than FT associates. You just have to be flexible about it, because cases / deals are unpredictable.

Which brings me to child care. For the most part, ladies either had a stay at home husband, used day care, or had a nanny. Most people I know who had nannies didn't have live-in nannies, which worked because it was generally unlikely that one spouse's night would get destroyed by work at the same time as the other's. It sounds like you have a good situation with your MIL, especially since she might be more flexible than a Nanny would be. I do think it would be hard though for the parents to be in different cities in that situation, because it would really cut down on flexibility - if you end up having to work really late and your significant other can't be there to cover, firms often just won't understand that and so you'll be forced to find a way to get child care at the last minute. Of course, I suspect that Wilmington firms would be very different (my friends in other cities have found their firms to be more flexible and the hours to be better generally than they are in NY), and understand that clerkships are also much more flexible.

I think the bottom line is that for permanent positions (once your SO's clerkship is over -- good luck to him!), you should try to be in the same city, and I would definitely ask other working mothers at your firm how they make it work (bonus if they can do PT or flex schedule!). Personally, I wouldn't recommend settling down in NY, because I think NY Biglaw is an especially difficult environment in which to raise a family (that's why I left) -- even if you can make it work (and a lot of ladies do!) there are definitely trade-offs and it's something to seriously consider.

Oh, and as for telling your firm you're pregnant. If their summer acceptance rate is 100%, you probably don't need to worry about telling them as a summer, because they won't torpedo their NALP ratings by no-offering someone, especially not someone who's pregnant. One of my good friends at my firm got pregnant 3L year and told our firm before she started, and they were very nice about it -- they were flexible on her start date and even sent her a gift basket.

Good luck! I hope this helps.

 

[NovemberBride]

I know that a lot of people have brought up the part-time option. While being a part-time associate has its pros and cons, I think it is probably off the table for OP because I do not know of any firm that allows 1st year associates to work part-time.

 

[lucyandroger]

I would suggest looking into taking a year leave of absence from law school. This would give you some time with the baby when he/she is a newborn and allow you to transition to being a mom without the stress of school and a looming firm job. Of course, you would have to talk to your firm about holding your offer open for the next year (assuming you get one!). Also, you would have to look into whether any of your student loans would come due during your leave, but I would expect you would get at least a 6 month grace period on most loans.

I spent 3 years in big law and my husband is still there. I personally don't believe I could be the type of mother I would like to be under those conditions. But plenty of women do it everyday so it depends on your own personal boundaries and vision for your life and motherhood.

Good luck!

 

[rosetta]

As there's only 24 hours in a day, something's gotta give.

Your child will only grow up, and you'll miss a lot if you are working such long hours. Someone else will get to share her first steps, first day of school etc. You have to think if you really, really want this. A lot of women have made this sacrifice, only to regret it later. Is there any way you can go part-time? Or do you both have to do full time biglaw to pay off your student debt ASAP?

I'm not a lawyer, your hours sound horrendous.

As one half of a doctor couple, we both plan to go part time after having kids. It means we will never earn big bucks (no more than £100k a year) but we are sacrificing it for quality of life. That's priceless IMHO. Of course, our careers won't suffer if we go part time (I'm one of the few female docs at work who is actually full time!) so its a no-brainer for me. My MIL would happily look after all my kids all day, every day for free, but I don't want them to be closer to her than me. So I'm not letting that happen.

What a difficult decision Misstepcut. I wish you much luck.

Congrats on your pregnancy!

 

[Gypsy]

Well, since Rainwood covered all the particulars and options comprehensively I'm going to only add this. (turned out a lot longer than I thought, sorry for the novel, but please... for you own sake: read it).

You are young and energetic and full of hope. And you are in law school. Your DH is just going to start practicing this year and no matter HOW many summer internships you've had, how many horror stories you've heard. You have not lived it.

Your future hubby is going to start 4 of the most grueling years of practice for most attorneys (mostly because after 4 years the majority refuse to keep practicing in firms). He will eat, sleep and drink work. And will not even be half a husband to you, let alone ANY husband to you and half a father to that child.

YOU will go through all kinds of physical changes during your pregnancy, then start four years of your own career hell with hormonal fluctuations to start it off and all kinds of guilt, depression, anxiety about the baby at home while never seeing your husband and only sometimes seeing your child when you and she/he are awake to enjoy it.

2 stressed out newbie lawyers (bottom of feeding chain that is actually CREATED with the specific INTENT of weeding out the stressed/overburdened/uncommitted, no exaggeration) PLUS a baby.

There is a decent chance your baby either won't bond with you or your husband, but rather with your mother or another caretaker... or will bond with one of you and scream holy hell and be scarred, quite possibly for life at the daily separation. And either of those options might scar you and your husband and your relationship.

Here's something to think on:
My mother was a single mom that had no choice but to work long hours. I was raised primarily by my grandfather. And I ADORED him, he passed away 2 and half years ago and there are days I can't draw breath for missing him. And I wouldn't change a THING because he was such an incredible parent to me and I knew I was adored every minute of the day without doubt. But my mom-- and our relationship, yeah. She has regrets. Big ones. And I'm her only child, there are no do overs for her and there is huge distance between us to this day, and it's GROWING not getting better. She had no choice. She was abandoned by my dad. BUT you have a choice.

SO, I'm not going to say your child will have a horrible life or childhood without you. Cause it's not necessarily true. If your mom is awesome and can BE THERE for that child, and if you can pay for the resources to help her raise your child... your kid could have a lovely-- if non-standard-- childhood. And there is nothing wrong with that. Heck it's more than most any kid in foster care has. They have the non-standard but not the material comfort or the love that your child could potentially have. I'm not even sure if ANYONE has a "standard" childhood anymore.

But you... as mom. I really think that in your youth and your optimism you are not seeing what you AND your husband might be endangering if you take this path.

It's a horrible thing to say, but look at divorce rates for lawyers. For couples where BOTH are lawyers. They aren't pretty. If that's what the environment of working in firms does to a marriage relationships with two adults-- do you think the majority of parent/child relationships are going to be healthy in that petrie dish?

In my opinion. You and your FI both need to find a way to compromise for the baby. And I don't know what that path looks like for the two of you... but there is one, and yes it might mean that you BOTH don't get what you want in terms of "ideal" careers-- it might mean both of you NOT going to biglaw (even with the one job all lined up) or even MEDIUMlaw. But ask yourself: is your life your career? To you live to work? Or do you work to live? Because if you live to work, might as well just give that kid up to your mom or to adoption to parents that have time for it. But if you are working to live-- then you have to put LIVING first-- that means putting your kid and and your relationship with your kid AND your marriage first. Because if you CAN NOT do it all. Something is GOING to give and it's not going to ASK you PERMISSION, it's just gonna give: and it might be your relationship with your child, or your relationship with each other that this happens too. And only you can decide, at this cross roads, whether either of those are worth risking.

Why are you having this child? Is it guilt? Religious reasons... because if you are thinking about doing this 2 x BIGLAW thing it's not because you value parenthood. Cause you aren't going to be a parent. You are going to be paycheck. And your child will notice. And so will you... eventually.

 

[decodelighted]

** prefaced w/the fact that I am taking this topic way too personally, as I couldn't sleep last night thinking about it **

I think you should have a long talk w/your Fiance this weekend. How would he feel about this pregnancy if the baby was going to be staying with HIM in NYC? With his mother living THERE with HIM three-four days a week & dealing w/the nanny issues etc -- while also working the slave-driving hours of a first year associate. While YOU are safely two hours away doing your own "thang"? I mean, after all, his commute will be much shorter!

Why is it always WOMEN who take the baby? (Blah, blah breastfeeding - it'd survive just fine.) Is he going to take the baby to DC w/him if he lands a Federal Clerkship? During the time he's supposed to make things easier for you?

I have a feeling he'd be thinking about this whole thing very differently if the burdens and sacrifices were going to fall as much on HIM as they will (traditionally) on YOU.

Neither of you have any idea of how impossible a situation this is shaping up to be. And I don't see a lot of changing of your plans in light of a HUGE DEVELOPMENT. I also really question how doable this 3-4 day a week out-of-state-Mother-In-Law as nanny plan? She could simply FLAKE! Or get tired? Or develop health problems? A lot of this is hinging on someone else stepping in to rescue you all ... and it bothers me that your FI is so eager to let his mommy do the dirty work for him while he stays out of the fray & dramz & poop smells & all night crying in his sexy little NYC bachelor pad.

Does that bother YOU?

 

[MsP]

I don't have anything to add to the lawyer/mother discussion but I will comment on commuting from the Philly area to Delaware. It. Is. Not. Fun. I drove or rode in someone else's car from just west of Philly to Newark 5x a week for 2.5 years. Sometimes the traffic was BRUTAL and sometimes a breeze but overall, it was pretty cruddy. For your sanity, I highly recommend looking into some of the other areas in DE that aren't in the sketchy parts of Wilmington.

I went to University of Delaware so I'm pretty familiar with the area and can reach out to others if you need help. You can contact me through my DB listings if you wish. Same username as my PS one.

Best of luck to you as you go through this trying time and for a healthy pregnancy!

Small world-- I did the same commute!

I don't have much to add to this thread but I can help with the general area info should you ever need it. It's not as bad as you probably think.

Hugs and well wishes!

 

[winternight]

I don't think it is so much being an attorney and being a mother but the commuting and the fact that the father is going to be in another city? That seems more the issue. And of course the nature of the firm you'll be at. I think some people are attorneys but maybe it would be helpful for people to state what they actually know about firms and what their experience is. I'm not always sure that people get how difficult or nearly impossible it is to take time off or go part time and then get your career back on track.

It is all about the firm and practice group. My DH is very involved as a father and he works leaving around 9am - 6-7pm at night. I do the same. Sure sometimes one of us works at night or on the weekend, but often after our daughter is sleeping. I get that some people have had a different experience but I think some of the posts are a bit over the top.

What is the alternative? A part-time job? Really? Or OP stays at home and doesn't use her degree, puts all the pressure on her guy, and hopes their relationship works out? Another full time job? Honestly, if OP decides to go to gov't or a firm with lower billables if she first starts at a name firm her future path will be much easier - 1-2 years at Biglaw then look elsewhere - people do it all the time. Taking a year off especially if you have an offer in hand doesn't sound like a bad idea though - that might be nice to pursue.

I agree with Deco's post as well - yeah if it is his mom he can take the baby while he does the clerkship. That actually makes alot of sense if you're at a firm and frankly you're making the bigger salary.

 

[NovemberBride]

I don't think it is so much being an attorney and being a mother but the commuting and the fact that the father is going to be in another city? That seems more the issue. And of course the nature of the firm you'll be at. I think some people are attorneys but maybe it would be helpful for people to state what they actually know about firms and what their experience is. I'm not always sure that people get how difficult or nearly impossible it is to take time off or go part time and then get your career back on track.

It is all about the firm and practice group. My DH is very involved as a father and he works leaving around 9am - 6-7pm at night. I do the same. Sure sometimes one of us works at night or on the weekend, but often after our daughter is sleeping. I get that some people have had a different experience but I think some of the posts are a bit over the top.

What is the alternative? A part-time job? Really? Or OP stays at home and doesn't use her degree, puts all the pressure on her guy, and hopes their relationship works out? Another full time job? Honestly, if OP decides to go to gov't or a firm with lower billables if she first starts at a name firm her future path will be much easier - 1-2 years at Biglaw then look elsewhere - people do it all the time. Taking a year off especially if you have an offer in hand doesn't sound like a bad idea though - that might be nice to pursue.

I agree with Deco's post as well - yeah if it is his mom he can take the baby while he does the clerkship. That actually makes alot of sense if you're at a firm and frankly you're making the bigger salary.

Winternight, I know you said you and DH were both at biglaw firms now, but I think you mentioned that you recently joined a firm around the time you had your daughter after working on government for a few years. In my experience, having a child as a mid-level or senior associate is vastly different than as a 1st year or junior associate. Mid-level and senior associates have much more control over their schedules than junior associates who have virtually none. First year associates don't often have the luxury of working till 6 and then working from home after their kids go to bed. If OP or her DH were not going to be first years, I think the lawyers on this thread would be giving vastly different answers. Firms are accustomed to mid and senior-level associates having babies (even if they don't like it) which makes it less of an impossible situation.

 

[decodelighted]

I am not a lawyer. My younger sister partnered in DC area biglaw & now has her own firm. Her husband is also a lawyer. They have two kids. (for clarification as to my personal knowledge on the subject)

Unfortunate as it is, I think the choice to have the baby at this time is going to color peoples opinions (fairly or unfairly) about how serious each party truly is about a law career in an extremely competitive environment right now.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Gosh, I am not a lawyer so I shouldn't even respond, but I am a mother. You have to make a choice of whether you are going to put your child first or your career. It is hard for you to realistically make that judgement until you are holding that baby. My daughter is a reading specialist who works 10 months a year, leaves home at 7am (her hubby brings baby to me at 8:30) and is here to pick up baby by 4pm, has her mother (me) keeping her baby, and it KILLED her to go back to work when the baby was 12 weeks! She SO wishes she could work part-time, but her hours ARE part-time compared to the hours talked about on here.

Gypsy's post brought tears to my eyes. She is dead on with her perspective. You aren't going to be able to do it all, so you need to make an alternate plan. What kind of life will it be for this child if he or she only sees a parent an hour a day? Or some days, not at all? Will she even see her father for months (sorry, have girl baby on my brain)? I really don't see how living in two different places can possibly work or even be financially worth it. This is when I have to partially agree with Deco....give the baby to a grandparent to raise or else give it up for adoption.

I cannot believe people are working until 5am and then going back into work at 8am and working through multiple weekends. This blows my mind! What kind of life is that???

 

[sillyberry]

Gosh, I am not a lawyer so I shouldn't even respond, but I am a mother. You have to make a choice of whether you are going to put your child first or your career. It is hard for you to realistically make that judgement until you are holding that baby. My daughter is a reading specialist who works 10 months a year, leaves home at 7am (her hubby brings baby to me at 8:30) and is here to pick up baby by 4pm, has her mother (me) keeping her baby, and it KILLED her to go back to work when the baby was 12 weeks! She SO wishes she could work part-time, but her hours ARE part-time compared to the hours talked about on here.

Gypsy's post brought tears to my eyes. She is dead on with her perspective. You aren't going to be able to do it all, so you need to make an alternate plan. What kind of life will it be for this child if he or she only sees a parent an hour a day? Or some days, not at all? Will she even see her father for months (sorry, have girl baby on my brain)? I really don't see how living in two different places can possibly work or even be financially worth it. This is when I have to partially agree with Deco....give the baby to a grandparent to raise or else give it up for adoption.

I cannot believe people are working until 5am and then going back into work at 8am and working through multiple weekends. This blows my mind! What kind of life is that???

Fortunately, life is not always like that and those particular hours are not my norm (my norm is in the office at 9:30am and out around 7/8pm with a 15-40 minute commute depending on traffic). But it's like that often enough to make life challenging and planning difficult. Recently we statutorily had 10 days to file something that required experts and ended up being 89 pages long -- that's time consuming and entirely out of anyone's control (it wasn't just sadistic partners trying to make our lives miserable). My DH and I are long distance and we just had to change his flight plans when my filing deadlines changed and the weekend I thought I had free became very unfree. Fortunately my firm paid the fees, but still -- difficult.

 

[Person24]

This is a topic I could see myself creating. It is something I constantly worry about. I am a new attorney (first year associate). I am in litigation and in the "lawyer world" my hours are pretty good. They are normally 7:45 am to 6:45 p.m and weekends as needed (unless something crazy comes up). However, my commute is 45 minutes each direction.

I really don't understand how people have the time and/or endurance to have kids and work such long hours. My only guess is that the hire people to do all of their housework etc? But the biggest problem I forsee is the constant stress/pressure a lawyer is under. Maybe the stress gets better as you become more competent, but it seems that the higher level attorneys are even more stressed than the newbies. I am terrified I am going to have no patience to deal with a kid.

I am not pregnant and don't plan on having kids for a few years. But I already know I am a way worse wife than before I started working. I thought law-school was time consuming. Actually being an attorney is WAY more time intensive and stressful. That is something that OP should keep in mind in making her decision.

 

[NovemberBride]

Gosh, I am not a lawyer so I shouldn't even respond, but I am a mother. You have to make a choice of whether you are going to put your child first or your career. It is hard for you to realistically make that judgement until you are holding that baby. My daughter is a reading specialist who works 10 months a year, leaves home at 7am (her hubby brings baby to me at 8:30) and is here to pick up baby by 4pm, has her mother (me) keeping her baby, and it KILLED her to go back to work when the baby was 12 weeks! She SO wishes she could work part-time, but her hours ARE part-time compared to the hours talked about on here.

Gypsy's post brought tears to my eyes. She is dead on with her perspective. You aren't going to be able to do it all, so you need to make an alternate plan. What kind of life will it be for this child if he or she only sees a parent an hour a day? Or some days, not at all? Will she even see her father for months (sorry, have girl baby on my brain)? I really don't see how living in two different places can possibly work or even be financially worth it. This is when I have to partially agree with Deco....give the baby to a grandparent to raise or else give it up for adoption.

I cannot believe people are working until 5am and then going back into work at 8am and working through multiple weekends. This blows my mind! What kind of life is that???

Fortunately, life is not always like that and those particular hours are not my norm (my norm is in the office at 9:30am and out around 7/8pm with a 15-40 minute commute depending on traffic). But it's like that often enough to make life challenging and planning difficult. Recently we statutorily had 10 days to file something that required experts and ended up being 89 pages long -- that's time consuming and entirely out of anyone's control (it wasn't just sadistic partners trying to make our lives miserable). My DH and I are long distance and we just had to change his flight plans when my filing deadlines changed and the weekend I thought I had free became very unfree. Fortunately my firm paid the fees, but still -- difficult.

I agree, it is not the norm but it does happen, even as a relatively senior in-house lawyer. I will say that although it is exhausting, I do love the excitement and challenge of working on high profile and complex matters. I do not live to work, but my job is more than just a paycheck. I work extremely hard and take pride in knowing that there are few others that can do the type of work I do at the level that I do. I recently spent two weeks in NYC closing a huge transaction that got national press. I basically left the outside counsel's office for a few hours of sleep each night. Of course I missed my daughter who was home with DH, but I knew once the deal closed I would take off a few days to spend with her and it wouldn't have any long-term effect on her. What I hope will have a long-term effect on her is having a mom who is a strong woman and well-respected professional who works hard to help support her family. And that she has a dad who is just as capable as mom of bathing, feeding her, packing her lunch, etc.

 

[mayerling]

Everyone's advice is so interesting. I really wish the OP would come back and comment on everything people have posted.

 

[Fed]

I don't have kids and I don't know the slightest thing about kids or childcare. But I am an attorney for the Federal Government in Washington D.C.

Every single friend of mine that was ever in private practice; whether large, mid-size, or small firms left to join the Federal Government because they hated private practice. I'm sure that the money is nice but if are are working all the time you won't have the time to spend it anyway. The money ends up going to housekeepers, nannies, dry cleaners; people performing services for you that you don't have the time to do for yourself because you don't have a life.

I would urge to to consider working for the Federal Government if the D.C. area is appealing and convenient for you. There are a number of honors programs that you could apply for as a 3L to start your career in the Federal Government. After that, it can be very difficult to get a position in the Government given the current economy. My office regularly receives 800-1000 application per job posting.

Most offices offer compressed schedules (9 hour days with one day off every other week), telework, casual dress code, 40 hour work weeks, etc. Many of my co-workers have kids and my office is very family friendly.

Just a thought.

 

[Gypsy]

Gosh, I am not a lawyer so I shouldn't even respond, but I am a mother. You have to make a choice of whether you are going to put your child first or your career. It is hard for you to realistically make that judgement until you are holding that baby. My daughter is a reading specialist who works 10 months a year, leaves home at 7am (her hubby brings baby to me at 8:30) and is here to pick up baby by 4pm, has her mother (me) keeping her baby, and it KILLED her to go back to work when the baby was 12 weeks! She SO wishes she could work part-time, but her hours ARE part-time compared to the hours talked about on here.

Gypsy's post brought tears to my eyes. She is dead on with her perspective. You aren't going to be able to do it all, so you need to make an alternate plan. What kind of life will it be for this child if he or she only sees a parent an hour a day? Or some days, not at all? Will she even see her father for months (sorry, have girl baby on my brain)? I really don't see how living in two different places can possibly work or even be financially worth it. This is when I have to partially agree with Deco....give the baby to a grandparent to raise or else give it up for adoption.

I cannot believe people are working until 5am and then going back into work at 8am and working through multiple weekends. This blows my mind! What kind of life is that???

Fortunately, life is not always like that and those particular hours are not my norm (my norm is in the office at 9:30am and out around 7/8pm with a 15-40 minute commute depending on traffic). But it's like that often enough to make life challenging and planning difficult. Recently we statutorily had 10 days to file something that required experts and ended up being 89 pages long -- that's time consuming and entirely out of anyone's control (it wasn't just sadistic partners trying to make our lives miserable). My DH and I are long distance and we just had to change his flight plans when my filing deadlines changed and the weekend I thought I had free became very unfree. Fortunately my firm paid the fees, but still -- difficult.

I agree, it is not the norm but it does happen, even as a relatively senior in-house lawyer. I will say that although it is exhausting, I do love the excitement and challenge of working on high profile and complex matters. I do not live to work, but my job is more than just a paycheck. I work extremely hard and take pride in knowing that there are few others that can do the type of work I do at the level that I do. I recently spent two weeks in NYC closing a huge transaction that got national press. I basically left the outside counsel's office for a few hours of sleep each night. Of course I missed my daughter who was home with DH, but I knew once the deal closed I would take off a few days to spend with her and it wouldn't have any long-term effect on her. What I hope will have a long-term effect on her is having a mom who is a strong woman and well-respected professional who works hard to help support her family. And that she has a dad who is just as capable as mom of bathing, feeding her, packing her lunch, etc.

Hi November, I have female friends I graduated with who are very successful moms and still practice. Some of them are married to lawyers as well. But almost all of them waited till about 4 years after graduation to have those kids.

I don't think this thread is about whether female lawyers can be good moms. I genuinely think they can. It's about whether a 3L who wants a biglaw career married to a person only ONE year ahead of her, who is also starting a biglaw career (2 HOURS away!) can sanely add a baby to that mix and STILL be a GOOD lawyers AND a good parents. I don't think they can.

I think Deco is right also. That's why I said in my last post that BOTH mom and dad need to compromise. Having dad staring a grueling career while two hours a way is just a bad a idea WITH mom also starting one just after the baby is born.

MissStepcut: You have a HUGE luxury that many potential parents do NOT have. You have choices. I suggest you explore them. You do not HAVE to alienate your child. Your husband doesn't HAVE to work 2 hours away. You don't HAVE to have your child raised by non-parental caretakers. And, ultimately, you don't have to have a child right now either. You have many choices. I suggest you start to explore them. This thread was a good start, the fact that you even posted it show you have doubts and reservations about your path. Listen to yourself, the part of you that posted this.

What I didn't say above about my own childhood, and maybe this will give you some more food for thought MissStepcut: When my parents were together, before my dad ran off when I was 2.5 I had a 24 hour nanny I ADORED and my grandmother's also took care of me quite a bit. I never had the chance to bond with my mom (although she used to sing me to sleep some nights) really before I was 2.5 and then after my dad left she was a single mom and poor and struggling to make ends meet, something she had NEVER been before. So I didn't bond with her after either. I was afraid of her (she was the 'rule maker'), I respected her, and I loved her. But my relationship with her was never anywhere near what it could have been. And she knows that, knew it as it was happening and could do nothing about it. But had to stand by and watch. It was and is very hard for her. And honestly, it's hard for me too but I had grandpa. But I think, honestly, it's harder for her because she didn't have anyone, not even her only child.

 

[Autumnovember]

I don't have anything to add to the lawyer/mother discussion but I will comment on commuting from the Philly area to Delaware. It. Is. Not. Fun. I drove or rode in someone else's car from just west of Philly to Newark 5x a week for 2.5 years. Sometimes the traffic was BRUTAL and sometimes a breeze but overall, it was pretty cruddy. For your sanity, I highly recommend looking into some of the other areas in DE that aren't in the sketchy parts of Wilmington.

I went to University of Delaware so I'm pretty familiar with the area and can reach out to others if you need help. You can contact me through my DB listings if you wish. Same username as my PS one.

Best of luck to you as you go through this trying time and for a healthy pregnancy!

Small world-- I did the same commute!

I don't have much to add to this thread but I can help with the general area info should you ever need it. It's not as bad as you probably think.

Hugs and well wishes!

I second this but I currently commute from the NY area to Philly and I have done it for the last 5 years. I obviously can't comment on the actual issue at hand but I'm here if you need any information about the commute.

What I can say is this: it is very, very tiring after a while. I really didn't mind it so much the first 2 years but its just become *annoying* and draining to do.

 

[FrekeChild]

Well I know next to nothing about BigLaw. But I do know a fair amount about attorneys, and now, about being a mother to a newborn.

I am a legal assistant to a Social Security Disability attorney. She is a sole practitioner and has about 10 legal assistants. My father was a divorce attorney for 50 years, he recently retired.

I didn't know my dad. My mom had to pack me into his care, strap me in and leave me there on Saturdays for "Job Day" which was the only day my dad had free. He built his law firm from the ground up and he lived to work. It was only when I was about 6 that I didn't scream and cry for the first hour alone with him. I was positively terrified of this strange man I didn't know. Often I'd have to go meet clients with him during this Job Day.

My boss works 24/7 minus driving to work, eating and sleeping. She lives to work as well.

My boss asked me to come back to work 2.5 weeks after A was born. And I did. Because I am stupid. I regret it every single day. It wasn't just the fact that she was a newborn, but also, I'd had major surgery - I had no place being back at work while on narcotics and still trying to breastfeed, even the tiniest bit I was able to produce. But the pressure to go back to work was unbelievable. I cannot even imagine dealing with it as an attorney in a law firm or as a law student.

I worked 40+ hours before and during my pregnancy. I work part time now. And every single day I dread going to work because I want to be at home, away from the unpleasant stress at work. But also because every fiber in my being wants to not miss a minute of her development, of her growth. Before, I thought I'd be able to go back to work no problem. I thought I'd be able to work at home no problem. I thought everything would stay the same, I'd just have a baby.

Holy cow was I wrong.

No one's stories prepared me for her. No one's stories prepared me for how wonderful she is, or how time consuming she is, or how much my life changed the instant she was in my life. How my priorities did a 180.

And ditto Gypsy and Deco.

 

[Skippy123]

I agree w/Freke, having a baby or babies in my case changes everything! They are only little for so long and they grow up in a blink of an eye! I use to work for an accounting firm but I know it is different from a law firm but for those that had kids it was a struggle. Some people in the accounting firm did fine but they did talk about how much they missed their kids which was heart breaking! I can't imagine how some of them juggled motherhood and a brand new baby. I just wish you the best in what you decide.

 

[MissStepcut]

So we did have a long talk today. Actually, SO read the whole thread and we took everyone's commentary into account. We realized that it's just not tenable to be a "long distance family." Ya'll are definitely right about that. How we will resolve that, we can't know yet, but we will make that our end game no matter what. We have more support in DC, but both our intended practice areas are weaker in DC. But, this thread really helped us see the folly of that idea.

As far as MIL goes, I am not worried that she will flake or not really be available, assuming nothing tragic happens. That's an assumption, but you need to make some assumptions to make plans. She comes from a communal family culture and is very excited to be as active in raising the baby as she can be. She doesn't really need to work and has offered to spend several days a week with us. As it is, she's alone a lot because FIL travels internationally for weeks at a time many (many) times a year.

Now, as others have said, I can't know now what I will want after the baby comes. I just can't know that yet. Right now, I can't say I find the idea of letting my MIL and nannies and daycare providers have a big role in the child's upbringing too terrible an idea, particularly after I've spent 10 months home with the baby. But then, that's what my childhood looked like, so maybe it's just a lack of exposure to other ways of raising a family.

As most people here probably realize, it's important for us to get to year 2-3 before other doors start to open outside of biglaw. DOJ, SEC, the rest of alphabet soup isn't hiring right out of school these days. So I think we have to find a way to get that on our resumes before we can seriously consider either of us downshifting. That doesn't mean we have to be in different cities during that time though, we just have to hustle employment and get ourselves in the same place at the same time.

I'll also point out that I am 27 and SO is 28. Law is a second career for both of us, and we both live to work. Or at least, we did. I realize that law is more demanding than either of our previous jobs, and that the baby might change our attitudes. Or just my attitude. There are a lot of unknown variables right now. We have to take it one day at a time and adjust things when they're not working. But, we have both had fairly demanding (70-80 hours a week) jobs before, so we're not totally ignorant as to what that will mean.

As far as why we're having it or keeping it, that's a hard question to answer. It's really not out of religious reasons. I guess it's a combination of wanting to be parents, realizing that I will have 10 uncommitted months if we do it now, and generally not feeling good about abortion in our situation. Safe, legal and rare, as they say.

Again, I really appreciate everyone's contribution. I really am not only hearing what I want to hear. It's just all been quite a shock and I am slowly adjusting to what all this will mean.

 

[amc80]

I've read this whole thread, and, honestly, it's made me a bit sad. I'm pregnant right now, due in August. I'm taking 6 weeks off, my husband gets 12 weeks. Then baby will be going to a daycare at my work (and my commute is maybe 5 minutes). The daycare is great and they encourage parents to visit throughout the day to breastfeed or just hang out and visit. Despite all of this, I already feel guilt and anxiety about leaving my baby. I mean 8 hours a day is a lot! It's my baby, I should be the one raising it.

Then I think about your situation. From what you and others have described, it sounds like you won't really be seeing the baby at all. Maybe for an hour at night, but event that's unlikely given the commute you're setting up for yourself. Weekends? Maybe...but it sounds like those will be often spent working as well. And your SO's involvement will be even less.

This isnt a puppy, it's a kid. A kid that will likely be raised almost exclusively by other people for the first years of its life. I'm not here to bash or judge, just to tell give you another opinion, which you can listen to or not. Planned or not, this baby is coming. Please please consider your plans. If I were you, I would be searching for a non biglaw option. No you may not be a hot shot lawyer for a huge famous firm, but you'll get to be a mother. Do not set yourself up for a ridiculous commute. That's all time you could be spending with your kid. Your SO needs to make a sacrifice as well and not live 2 hours away. Find a compromise that results in you guys living together and raising your child. No one ever dies wishing they had spent more time at work and less time with family.

 

[Enerchi]

Find a compromise that results in you guys living together and raising your child. No one ever dies wishing they had spent more time at work and less time with family.

well said amc.

 

[mich_t]

Hi Miss Stepcut,
I'm Australian, so the geographical aspects may be different but I worked as a lawyer for two of the biggest firms in Australia and I'm a mum of two littlies.

One thing which I'm not sure has been brought up yet (skimmed the responses for forgive me if it has!), is how you are going to feel after the baby is born, which is something you cannot predict. It is entirely dependent on who your supervising partner is and how good they are, but when I was pregnant with my first daughter, it was 'tradition' in my area to only take 6 months mat leave and come back 4 days a week. I wasn't a particularly clucky person, so I even had thoughts of taking only three months and then coming back full time...then I had my daughter and all my ambition flew out the window! I ended up only getting 5 months with her before going back and I went back the most miserable person there was. I lasted 4 months working 16 hour days, copping attitude from peers because I got to go home 'early' (the occasional 7-9pm earlymark when there wasn't much to do) and pumping milk and then quit to take an in-house position with 9-5 hours.

I'm not saying that this is going to be you at all. As you have read, there are many people happily juggling a love for their job and children. I had underlying dissatisfaction with being a lawyer anyway before and had other interests, so for me it was more than just wanting to be a SAHM (which I'm not as I'm currently doing a PhD in History), but all I'm advising is to perhaps don't commit to anything until after the baby is born, because you will not know how you are going to react to that little bundle until you see him/her.

I wish you all the best whatever you choose!
Mich.

 

[Gypsy]

I guess it's a combination of wanting to be parents...

Honey, I really don't mean it harshly but: you don't want to be a parent. Any person who while actively pregnant thinks of 10 months with the newborn as a hell to escape from to 90 hour work weeks, and who doesn't see any problem with a child being raised by other people knowing that she will only see that child a couple of hours a week doesn't want to be a parent.

Not unless your definition of being a parent is providing genetic material, some general oversight, and money. And yes, maybe that's how you were raised. And like I said above, I was raised similarly and turned out fine, so I think your kid has a chance at being okay too. But don't kid yourself that you WANT to be a PARENT. A parent is a caretaker: is the person you run to when you fall and who holds you in their arms and gives you a feeling of unparalleled safety, the person who holds your hands in theirs giving you the confidence to take your first scary steps, the person whose ears are tuned to your baby talk so well that when others think you are babbling KNOWS you are really saying "I want my truck please", who takes the time to understand WHY you are throwing a tantrum instead of just yelling at your for not being quiet or punishing you because you are a 'bad kid'.

I don't hear anything that says you OR your husband want that. Because being a parent is A LOT MORE than providing genetic material, some general oversight and money. If you don't see that, I don't know what to say. Except I feel very sad for you. And for your husband who also doesn't seem to get what being a parent means. For for that child who WILL grow up okay, but will always wonder what was wrong with them that their parents didn't love them more, didn't want to be more involved in their lives, and didn't want to be a better parent to them. Who will wonder WHY when their parent's had to make a choice, chose their career instead of being there for the child they CHOSE to bring into this world.

What it sounds like you want is to SAY you are a parent, for whatever reason, while someone else deals with all the stress and frustration and day to day work that entails. Just because a child calls you mom or dad doesn't mean that's who you are in their hearts, children are very smart about that, and can't be fooled. In order to BE a Mom or a Dad you actually have to put the work in. You may WANT the title, maybe because you think you should want it, or because it's another entry on your life resume to say that you are a parent, but you don't certainly don't sound like you want to earn the title. So... why put yourself and a child through that? Seriously. No one says you have to have a child. OR that if you are a pregnant that you can't adopt the child out to someone who DOES very much want to be a parent. Or maybe you think having a child is EASIER than making the hard choice of an abortion or adoption. And sure if you want to just ship the kid off to be raised by others you pay for it might be. But that doesn't mean it's the RIGHT thing to do. The first thing about being a parent, and I speak as someone who has purposely NOT had kids but IS a daughter, is that you have to put THEM and THEIR interests first whenever you can. If you aren't prepared to do that, you shouldn't be a parent.

 

[sonnyjane]

I want to say that I completely agree with those that are being realistic with you about the challenges. I understand that the milk has already been spilled, so to speak, so we are beyond the point of simply recommending that you hold off on starting a family. I still believe, however, long talks with your SO and all, that you're being incredibly naive. This decision, the decision to have a child, is unlike any other decision, any other "snag", any other "bump in the road" that could ever be encountered. This decision, more than any other decision, including the decision to get married, is not to be taken lightly. Why would someone ever, ever, ever enter into parenthood with the notion that at BEST they could do a poor to mediocre job, and at worst, they could have virtually no relationship with their child at all? I don't know what else to say. I tried typing this about ten times and I still feel I haven't been successful in articulating my thoughts. Again, I'm certainly in no position to tell you what to do, but I do feel confident in saying things aren't just going to magically fall into place if you take it "day by day". This requires major planning and major sacrifice and nothing you've written thus far reflects your desire (or your SO's) to make the necessary changes. I think continuing on as you intend to do so as of this moment would be incredibly selfish, foolish, and sad for your child.

I wish you the best of luck and hope that you understand that we are coming at you so harshly out of concern for your child's future and not out of personal feelings toward you. I think you legitimately don't understand what is about to happen, and that's forgivable, but not heeding the advice of women that have lived this or seen it firsthand would be a huge mistake.