A Green Diamond with uncertain color origin

[kenny]

I'd heard of these but this is the first GIA report I've ever spotted on one so I thought I'd share it.
It is a 0.68 ct Pear and is priced at $40,800.

http://www.aliyadiamonds.com/items/0-01~0-99-carat/pear-0-68-fancy-vivid-green-vs2-g0507a1-detail.htm?1=1

Can you imagine spending $41K on this?
If GIA can't determine color origin who in the world would pay that?
When/if new technology is perfected that can determine color origin the value of this Vivid Green will shoot WAY up or WAY down.
Oh Man!!! What a risk!

What really blows my mind is someone somewhere KNOWS the color's origin, be it natural or lab.
If it is from a lab we have a big fat liar trying to print money.
If it is from a mine we have a crying mine owner who is probably angry at the cutter for polishing too much of the skin off the girdle. (I'm guessing)

 

[y2kitty]

That's a huge gamble.

 

[AN0NYM0US]

Cool find Kenny!

Is it strange the diamond appears to have an indented natural and it is still "undetermined"? Does it matter the report is from 2005? Maybe technologies have changed a little since then?

Geez, even the image is "pending"

 

[Arcadian]

wow, thats bad.


I dunno, somebody just might buy it. I thought certain diamonds colors were pretty rare, and isn't green one of those colors?

-A

 

[kenny]

Cool find Kenny!
Is it strange the diamond appears to have an indented natural and it is still "undetermined"? Does it matter the report is from 2005? Maybe technologies have changed a little since then?
Geez, even the image is "pending"

To determine color origin GIA analyzes those brown radiation stains in the proximity of the diamond's skin, and indented naturals are leftovers of the skin.
Maybe there was just not enough skin remaining on this pear for GIA's equipment.

This may explain why my natural green has so many naturals remaining.
They wanted to retain as much critical evidence as possible to prevent this kind or report.

I also wonder if GIA's equipment is updated in the 6 years since that report.
This sale could suggest yes or no.
If the seller knows GIA has no new techniques, why waste the money?
If they know that the color is not natural and know that GIA does have better equipment now they'd want to just sell it as is, hoping the buyer doesn't know any better.

 

[kenny]

wow, thats bad.


I dunno, somebody just might buy it. I thought certain diamonds colors were pretty rare, and isn't green one of those colors?

-A

Yes, green, especially vivid with no secondary color modifiers at this size is extremely rare with perhaps only pure red being more rare.

 

[LD]

From what I've read, the GIA prefer to see the rough so they can determine that the colour is natural. Then the cutter cuts and hey presto!

The process for colouring green diamonds is exactly the same in the earth as that produced when irradiated - this is why it's almost impossible (unless the rough has been seen) to know whether the colour is natural or induced.

I don't believe that a machine has been invented that can accurately separate the two processes yet.

 

[T L]

From what I've read, the GIA prefer to see the rough so they can determine that the colour is natural. Then the cutter cuts and hey presto!

The process for colouring green diamonds is exactly the same in the earth as that produced when irradiated - this is why it's almost impossible (unless the rough has been seen) to know whether the colour is natural or induced.

I don't believe that a machine has been invented that can accurately separate the two processes yet.

And it doesn't just end with diamonds. Many irradiated gems, like tourmaline, and others, cannot be conslusively detected as natural in color. Some gems are obvious, like irradiated blue diamond, or blue topaz, etc. . . but some are inconclusive. That's why irradiation is the one treatment I just loathe more than anything else. Not only does it drastically change the color of a gem, it's almost impossible in detect, if not impossible.

I would not buy that diamond without a conclusive GIA report. It's worth very little without it.

 

[kenny]

The more that I think about it the more I think the color must be from a lab.
Here's my reasoning.
Once again, at least one person on the planet knows for sure the color origin; this diamond did not fall out of the sky.
If it is natural that person would hold onto it in hopes that some day GIA will be able to grade it for what they are certain it is, natural.

Plus, who is going to buy a $41,000 lottery ticket?

 

[Jim Rentfrow]

Plus, who is going to buy a $41,000 lottery ticket?

Probably not myself but I am sure plenty of people would who have the money to do so and could write off the loss in the future if it turned out not to be natural colored. If it was natural it could be held and sold for the amount the person wanted.

 

[Michael_E]

The more that I think about it the more I think the color must be from a lab.
Here's my reasoning.
Once again, at least one person on the planet knows for sure the color origin; this diamond did not fall out of the sky.
If it is natural that person would hold onto it in hopes that some day GIA will be able to grade it for what they are certain it is, natural.

Plus, who is going to buy a $41,000 lottery ticket?

Of course the original seller may be crying in their milk about having to let such a valuable stone go so cheaply and you could be picking up a deal. The color itself can give one hints and I'm sure that the folks at the GIA who looked at this have their private opinions...maybe you could hang out around the EXIT door at the lab with a six pack and ask a few questions...or wait for the latest copy of G&G and see if they've mentioned it in there. This just brings to mind one of my personal favorite movie lines of all time when Dirty Harry said,
“You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?'

 

[LD]

I wouldn't be so quick as to jump to that assumption Kenny. Look at it this way .......... the GIA will always err on the side of caution. They have been known to put this disclaimer on a report even when there is evidence of rough. A few years ago there was a post (perhaps by David of DBL) where he told a story of this exact thing happening.

Also, even though the report is from 2005 we have no way of knowing how old this diamond is. It may well have been in somebody's collection for many years and they had never bothered to get a report, having trusted the dealer that it was a natural green but then when wanting to sell it on got the GIA to look at it. OR it could have been owned by a number of people and provenance has become less exact over the years. Years ago, obtaining a report was far less important than now (and I presume the popularity of coloured diamonds and the differing treatments nowadays has sparked the desire for more robust testing).

You'd be surprised that people buy on trust far more than you would believe - and usually it's when there is a heap load of money involved! As the saying goes "more money than sense"!

I agree, I'd never spend that sort of money on anything other than a natural green BUT there are others that would!

 

[kenny]

The color itself can give one hints and I'm sure that the folks at the GIA who looked at this have their private opinions...maybe you could hang out around the EXIT door at the lab with a six pack and ask a few questions...or wait for the latest copy of G&G and see if they've mentioned it in there. This just brings to mind one of my personal favorite movie lines of all time when Dirty Harry said,
“You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?'

If the color can give hints perhaps the vendor not showing a pic is a significant clue here.

If the GIA grader felt it was natural color (but GIA protocols required the ambiguous report) would not that employee buy it the moment it hit the market (or a member of the general public who just happens to be this employee's relative)?

 

[LD]

The color itself can give one hints and I'm sure that the folks at the GIA who looked at this have their private opinions...maybe you could hang out around the EXIT door at the lab with a six pack and ask a few questions...or wait for the latest copy of G&G and see if they've mentioned it in there. This just brings to mind one of my personal favorite movie lines of all time when Dirty Harry said,
“You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?'

If the color can give hints perhaps the vendor not showing a pic is a significant clue here.

If the GIA grader felt it was natural color, but GIA protocols required the ambiguous report would not that employee buy it the moment it hit the market (or a member of the general public who just happens to be this employee's relative)?

Why would they? (1) not everybody (especially in times of recession) has the cash to do so (2) how would they be able to sell on - there's no definitive report and they would be selling to somebody who would have to trust their word (3) I would hazard a guess that many people who work at the GIA "like" gemstones but it may not be a passion and I would suspect that a huge number are not collectors! (4) gemstones including diamonds are not a great investment.

 

[kenny]

The color itself can give one hints and I'm sure that the folks at the GIA who looked at this have their private opinions...maybe you could hang out around the EXIT door at the lab with a six pack and ask a few questions...or wait for the latest copy of G&G and see if they've mentioned it in there. This just brings to mind one of my personal favorite movie lines of all time when Dirty Harry said,
“You've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?'

If the color can give hints perhaps the vendor not showing a pic is a significant clue here.

If the GIA grader felt it was natural color, but GIA protocols required the ambiguous report would not that employee buy it the moment it hit the market (or a member of the general public who just happens to be this employee's relative)?

Why would they? (1) not everybody (especially in times of recession) has the cash to do so (2) how would they be able to sell on - there's no definitive report and they would be selling to somebody who would have to trust their word (3) I would hazard a guess that many people who work at the GIA "like" gemstones but it may not be a passion and I would suspect that a huge number are not collectors! (4) gemstones including diamonds are not a great investment.

If the grader's expertise tells him/her it is natural color (but GIA's conservative standards require an ambiguous report today) and they know it may sell for 10 or 20 times the price some day when/if the technology or GIA's protocols can establish what they feel is true, finding a way to acquire it at this bargain price would be a huge temptation.
That's all I'm saying.

 

[Jim Rentfrow]

[quote="kenny|1297372164|2848743
If the grader's expertise tells him/her it is natural color (but GIA's conservative standards require an ambiguous report today) and they know it may sell for 10 or 20 times the price some day when/if the technology or GIA's protocols can establish what they feel is true, finding a way to acquire it at this bargain price would be a huge temptation.
That's all I'm saying.

I believe most labs have processes in place where the grader does not know the actual customer name. That way they do not know where the stone came from. I may be wrong but I am pretty sure they told us this in my GIA courses.

 

[kenny]

[quote="kenny|1297372164|2848743
If the grader's expertise tells him/her it is natural color (but GIA's conservative standards require an ambiguous report today) and they know it may sell for 10 or 20 times the price some day when/if the technology or GIA's protocols can establish what they feel is true, finding a way to acquire it at this bargain price would be a huge temptation.
That's all I'm saying.

I believe most labs have processes in place where the grader does not know the actual customer name. That way they do not know where the stone came from. I may be wrong but I am pretty sure they told us this in my GIA courses.

True, but there are so few FCD vendors and so few FCDs for sale that it would not be too hard to find the listing for a 68 point Fancy Vivid Green VS2 Pear.

 

[Jim Rentfrow]

I think there are not a lot of FCD dealers online but there are a lot of vendors offline and only sell offline so it would be difficult to find the same stone again. But that is just my experiance.

 

[kenny]

Thanks.
Good point Jim.

Do you think anyone will buy this with an ambiguous report?
If so does the $40,800 price seem about right considering it is actually worth either $1000 or $700,000 or so?

 

[Jim Rentfrow]

I am sure someone will buy it. I have seen plenty of people purchase colored gemstones for up to 50k without any sort of lab report from jewelers I know. I bought my first colored gemstone without a lab report because I trusted the seller. The price is never right or wrong in my opinion, it is what people will pay for it. Often times with those kinds of markets if a price is too low then the product must not be worth it, or that is the perception buyers sometimes assume it seems

 

[kenny]

It's not like the seller is claiming it's natural so trusting the seller in this case is not a factor since GIA itself is undecided.

Have you ever known someone to buy a green diamond with GIA's dreaded Undetermined color origin report?
This must be the most rare, and the most risky of gem transactions.

The world's highest authority can't decide what it is, but still, the price is $41K.
It just blows my mind.

 

[Largosmom]

Of course someone will buy it! It's a diamond...it's green! Lots of people out there don't care about treatments.

 

[kenny]

Of course someone will buy it! It's a diamond...it's green! Lots of people out there don't care about treatments.

True, but I suspect a known-treated diamond like this will cost well under $5,000.
This one costs $41,000 on the chance that it's not treated.

 

[Largosmom]

Oh, I understand...it's just that not everyone does their research, so won't know that to be the case. There are a lot of people out there that just take someone at their word that the item to be purchased is worth the asking price. Some folks would even be quite proud to tell their friends that they have a diamond worth more than $40K just to show off. You are smarter...

 

[kenny]

Very true.
People DO buy diamonds without doing homework and often overpay.

The freaky thing is they may not be overpaying here.
I suspect this diamond, based on what we know, really IS worth $41k.

It is practically a Zen koan . . . What is a diamond worth, that is worth either $2,000 or $600,000?

 

[chrono]

Talk about a huge risk without knowing the treatment. Guess will have to wait to see pictures when the vendor finally posts it.

 

[serenitydiamonds]

Something that's really important to note is that diamonds are treated in rough form. 'Following the rough' through the cutting process does not guarantee it was treated before that. There are several documented cases of GIA getting treated rough of colors with discernible treatment.

Fully saturated green diamonds are irradiated exactly the same way, whether it's natural or artificial. It's not possible to discern them and GIA is being honest about it. I wouldn't spend that amount of money on one, but for someone who wants a very saturated green diamond, I'm sure there are people indifferent as to whether the earth or a lab irradiated it.

--Joshua

 

[LD]

Thank you Joshua. My points exactly. Irradiation is irradiation is irradiation - hence the difficulty in determining natural or man induced.

This diamond is only worth what somebody will pay without EVER knowing for certain. That's the bottom line.

 

[kenny]

Something that's really important to note is that diamonds are treated in rough form. 'Following the rough' through the cutting process does not guarantee it was treated before that. There are several documented cases of GIA getting treated rough of colors with discernible treatment.

Fully saturated green diamonds are irradiated exactly the same way, whether it's natural or artificial. It's not possible to discern them and GIA is being honest about it. I wouldn't spend that amount of money on one, but for someone who wants a very saturated green diamond, I'm sure there are people indifferent as to whether the earth or a lab irradiated it.

--Joshua

Not always, see below.

So are you saying that every green diamond that GIA grades natural color origin was submitted to GIA as rough and resubmitted as it went through the cutting process?

Page 409 and 410 of Steve Hofer's book, Collecting and Clasifying Coloured Diamonds, has some relevant and interesting info.

 

[kenny]

This diamond is only worth what somebody will pay without EVER knowing for certain. That's the bottom line.

True, but I would not use the word EVER.
Forever is a long time and technology marches on, for use by both the good guys and the bad guys.

Some day the good guys at GIA may develop better processes and that green pear may then be determined to be natural or not - unless of course GIA's policy is that ONLY greens submitted as rough and resubmitted throughout the cutting process can get the natural color origin grade.
[Does anyone know with certainty that this is the case?]

Then again, tomorrow's technology may allow definitive coloring grading of cut greens, so rough submission is no longer needed - if indeed it is even mandatory today.

It is the chance that this .68 ct pear's color may eventually be determined to be of natural origin that makes it worth a lot more than a known-treated diamond.