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diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen??

jeaniefish

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Hi ,
I haven't posted in a very long time but do visit and "lurk" alot. I seem to be more comfortable just lurking as I know so very little about diamonds. I have owned, and loved, an H colored, emerald cut diamond for about a year now. I have always dreamed of having a D or E . I'm referring to GIA grading for my present and ,possibly future, diamond. My question concerns a possible upgrade diamond tht I found on ebay. The GIA report shows a tiny feather close to one edge. The seller tells me that feathers are "harmless" but I've read otherwise. Any information/guidance tht I can get from y'all would be greatly (more than greatly ,actually) appreciated.
thanks a bunch,
Jean
 

kenny

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Some are harmless some are a concern mechanically since feather is an unalarming industry word for crack.
It's a case by case thing.

What clarity did GIA assign?
Can you post a pic of the inclusion plot?

Was feather the FIRST inclusion listed under the plot?
If so it is the most important inclusion.
If not it is an inclusion of lesser importance when assigning a grade.
 

Lorelei

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

jeaniefish|1295402798|2826292 said:
Hi ,
I haven't posted in a very long time but do visit and "lurk" alot. I seem to be more comfortable just lurking as I know so very little about diamonds. I have owned, and loved, an H colored, emerald cut diamond for about a year now. I have always dreamed of having a D or E . I'm referring to GIA grading for my present and ,possibly future, diamond. My question concerns a possible upgrade diamond tht I found on ebay. The GIA report shows a tiny feather close to one edge. The seller tells me that feathers are "harmless" but I've read otherwise. Any information/guidance tht I can get from y'all would be greatly (more than greatly ,actually) appreciated.
thanks a bunch,
Jean

Hi Jean,

Kenny makes an important point, what clarity grade does this diamond have please? Also you mention it is an Ebay seller, is it one with a good and proven reputation?
 

jeaniefish

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Hi Everyone,
Thanks to Kenny, slg47, and Lorelei for your replies. When I mentioned that I know next-to-nothing about diamonds, I was not exagerating my ignorance! I read the article on feathers,(thanks for the link) and had previously done some googling about feathers.My understanding is, the potential harm of a feather depends on where it's located, right? The seller( an ebay diamond dealer with very good feedback) assures me that "feathers are harmless" and I know that isn't 100% true. Yes, the feather is the first clarity issue listed at the bottomof the GIA report.I've attached a copy of the report ( I hope). If one of you very knowledgeable members ( that means anyone but me :tongue: ) could take a minute to look at it and tell me what you think, I would be so grateful.I should add that this ebay seller is willing to take my present H color emerald cut diamond in trade when most other dealers won't even consider doing that.
thanks bunches (again)
jean

1.50EMDVS2GIA.jpg
 

Todd Gray

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

I wasn't able to see the plotting diagram in the attached lab report, but was able to make out the lab report number and pull a copy of it from one of the multiple listing services subscribed to by the trade and have attached a copy of the plotting diagram for your reference. The black arrows indicate the feathers from what I can see from the scan (there may be more).

The term "feather" is the polite industry term for "fracture" and they can be minimal or extensive. Minor feathers are unlikely to pose a durability risk, however extensive feathers certainly can be a problem... it really is a case by case instance. I'd recommend having the diamond evaluated by an independent Gemologist with specific attention directed to the feathers... it is difficult (if not impossible) to accurately determine the extent of a feather by the plotting diagram.

gia212579904.jpg
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

I agree that minor feathers are very unlikely to pose a durability risk.
A stone graded VS2 by GIA would be one with the type of feather that can safely be considered "minor"

I don't feel it's accurate to state that all imperfections deemed "feather" are fractures or cracks.
I would argue that politeness or salesmanship has nothing to do with it.
A feather which is wholly contained in the diamond looks like... well, a feather.

To prove this point about terminology:
If a stone has a chip, that's exactly what GIA calls it.
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Stone- I believe you're reading it wrong.
GIA won;t issue a VS2 grade on a diamond with an imperfection that reaches the surface.
A crystal is something else entirely.
 

jeaniefish

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

First of all, "thank you" , and also to Todd Gray and Stone-cold11 for sharing your knowledge with me. I confess that what I wanted to hear back was something along the lines of "Looks great to me. Go for it!" but my diamond searches are never easy.I suppose the smartest thing to do would be to get the diamond and take it for an independant eval., as Todd suggested. However, my local B&M jeweler is upset with me because I've told him that his prices, after shopping around online, are kind of high. He says that's because he also offers honest service that you won't find on ebay or anywhere else online. He would likely show me the door if I took in a diamond that I did't buy from him.
I do feel a bit better about this particular diamond after reading your comment about the feather in a GIA VS2 diamond probably being nothing to worry about. I still don't understand all the plotting stuff and won't pretend that I do. I guess that what I would need to know is : is this feather "stable" and are there any others? I have to say that I've learned, the hard way, that diamonds are not a good investment for the average person.We buy them high and, at upgrade time, sell them low. I only want to do an upgrade once and be done with it! It's stressful and expensive. My husband hopes that I'll talk myself out of it and be happy with the diamond I have. It is a gorgeous EC diamond ,recut for me by Brian Gavin, and I do feel lucky to have it. However, it's still an H and my dream stone is a D or E. If anyone has had any experience with upgrading their diamonds, meaning how much of a loss you took, who you dealt with,etc., I would truly appreciate hearing from you. There is such a wealth of knowledge and experience on Pricescope. I don't know of another site that offers this service to us "babes in the woods" diamond owners and prospective owners.
thanks to all,
jean
 

stone-cold11

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Rockdiamond|1295470129|2826900 said:
Stone- I believe you're reading it wrong.
GIA won;t issue a VS2 grade on a diamond with an imperfection that reaches the surface.
A crystal is something else entirely.


Quoted from the article. https://www.pricescope.com/journal/diamond_feather_inclusions_durability_risk

GIA grading and feathers

GIA clarity graders plot feathers that extend from a diamond’s surface into the stone as “feathers.” If a feather is included and does not reach the surface, it is plotted as an “included crystal.” While the plotted crystal inclusion may actually be a fissure within the stone, if it does not reach the surface, GIA does not plot it as a feather, but the grader will plot it in the shape of the feather.
 

LD

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

I would bow to the expert opinions you've already received ............ I think I would be asking one further question (that I don't think has been answered yet).

The feather appears to be placed where a prong will be (albeit just to the side). So, if you're planning on setting the diamond, if set by a clumsy setter or a great one having a bad day, would there be a possibility of the feather increasing or worse still, turning a single diamond into a twin? I understand that it depends on the size of the feather to begin with but if you have the stone evaluated I wonder if perhaps you could ask that question also.

BTW ignore feedback somewhat on Ebay. Trust your instincts. You know that the Vendor has already been less than honest with you (either on purpose or through ignorance) so make the sale conditional on having an appraisal that concludes the feather is harmless. Don't buy and then try to resolve a problem later.

Good luck
 

Todd Gray

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

By suggesting that you have the diamond evaluated by an "independent" Gemologist, I intended to direct you to an expert not affiliated with a store and who does not sell jewelry. There is a list of appraisers available via the Resources / Appraisers link at the top of this page. Hopefully there is one located in your area and/or somebody who the diamond could be shipped to for evaluation prior to purchase (most PS vendors will work this way, so why shouldn't a vendor on eBay?)
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Stone-cold11|1295473861|2826973 said:
Rockdiamond|1295470129|2826900 said:
Stone- I believe you're reading it wrong.
GIA won;t issue a VS2 grade on a diamond with an imperfection that reaches the surface.
A crystal is something else entirely.


Quoted from the article. https://www.pricescope.com/journal/diamond_feather_inclusions_durability_risk

GIA grading and feathers

GIA clarity graders plot feathers that extend from a diamond’s surface into the stone as “feathers.” If a feather is included and does not reach the surface, it is plotted as an “included crystal.” While the plotted crystal inclusion may actually be a fissure within the stone, if it does not reach the surface, GIA does not plot it as a feather, but the grader will plot it in the shape of the feather.

Apparently you did read it correctly Stone- my apologies.
I believe the content of the article is incorrect.
Feathers can be wholly contained within a diamond- proving this point is the GIA report posted above.
GIA will not grade a diamond VS2 if an inclusion reaches the surface.

LD- a very good question about the possibility of a feather getting larger during setting!

Very unlikely in stones graded SI2 or higher.
Nothing is impossible, but highly unlikely.
Remember, the stresses a stone undergoes on the wheel, during cutting (polishing) are generally far greater than when a setter places a prong-
 

LD

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Rockdiamond|1295475610|2827004 said:
Stone-cold11|1295473861|2826973 said:
Rockdiamond|1295470129|2826900 said:
Stone- I believe you're reading it wrong.
GIA won;t issue a VS2 grade on a diamond with an imperfection that reaches the surface.
A crystal is something else entirely.


Quoted from the article. https://www.pricescope.com/journal/diamond_feather_inclusions_durability_risk

GIA grading and feathers

GIA clarity graders plot feathers that extend from a diamond’s surface into the stone as “feathers.” If a feather is included and does not reach the surface, it is plotted as an “included crystal.” While the plotted crystal inclusion may actually be a fissure within the stone, if it does not reach the surface, GIA does not plot it as a feather, but the grader will plot it in the shape of the feather.

Apparently you did read it correctly Stone- my apologies.
I believe the content of the article is incorrect.
Feathers can be wholly contained within a diamond- proving this point is the GIA report posted above.
GIA will not grade a diamond VS2 if an inclusion reaches the surface.

LD- a very good question about the possibility of a feather getting larger during setting!

Very unlikely in stones graded SI2 or higher.
Nothing is impossible, but highly unlikely.
Remember, the stresses a stone undergoes on the wheel, during cutting (polishing) are generally far greater than when a setter places a prong-

Thank you David. That makes sense. When I was posting I was thinking purely of the pressure on the stone during the setting process but hadn't thought backwards enough to the cutting.
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

jeaniefish|1295471482|2826932 said:
First of all, "thank you" , and also to Todd Gray and Stone-cold11 for sharing your knowledge with me. I confess that what I wanted to hear back was something along the lines of "Looks great to me. Go for it!" but my diamond searches are never easy.I suppose the smartest thing to do would be to get the diamond and take it for an independant eval., as Todd suggested. However, my local B&M jeweler is upset with me because I've told him that his prices, after shopping around online, are kind of high. He says that's because he also offers honest service that you won't find on ebay or anywhere else online. He would likely show me the door if I took in a diamond that I did't buy from him.
I do feel a bit better about this particular diamond after reading your comment about the feather in a GIA VS2 diamond probably being nothing to worry about. I still don't understand all the plotting stuff and won't pretend that I do. I guess that what I would need to know is : is this feather "stable" and are there any others? I have to say that I've learned, the hard way, that diamonds are not a good investment for the average person.We buy them high and, at upgrade time, sell them low. I only want to do an upgrade once and be done with it! It's stressful and expensive. My husband hopes that I'll talk myself out of it and be happy with the diamond I have. It is a gorgeous EC diamond ,recut for me by Brian Gavin, and I do feel lucky to have it. However, it's still an H and my dream stone is a D or E. If anyone has had any experience with upgrading their diamonds, meaning how much of a loss you took, who you dealt with,etc., I would truly appreciate hearing from you. There is such a wealth of knowledge and experience on Pricescope. I don't know of another site that offers this service to us "babes in the woods" diamond owners and prospective owners.
thanks to all,
jean

Jean- It is very frustrating for B&M stores nowadays.
He's right in principle about something.
You get a service in a retail walk in store that an internet seller can't offer.
That service being, you are looking at the stone- and the seller- face to face.
Many people find the idea of paying a seller for stone they have not seen to be too dangerous.

The problem for stores is that this service costs a lot of money.
Rent, the additional labor needed to staff a store- higher insurance costs- the list goes on and on. Hence the lower prices found at the best internet diamond sellers.

Today, as internet sellers are getting more well known, and more buyers are familiar with online buying, many stores simply can't keep up.
It's a shame, because a store has an investment in a community- and although I've been the beneficiary of the advent and advancement of internet sales, a part of me feels bad that stores have to suffer because of this.

That said, it's wrong for any seller to pressure a buyer- for any reason.
Knowing about the difficulties he faces might make it easier for you to deal with what he's going through.


LD- my pleasure :wavey:
 

jeaniefish

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

I had the very same thought..would setting cause the feather (aka crack) to lengthen or split the stone. Part of me was hoping that setting would actually take care of the problem, since it appears to be in an area where prongs might cover it.I think that's wishful thinking on my part. You are so right about the seller.Either he is not all that knowledgeable or trying to sell me a "bill of goods" . He definitely said that feathers are harmless. :roll: Thanks for your reply-much appreciated.
jean
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

I can't speak at all about any of the seller's practices - not that I even know who it is-
But a statement that a VS2 as graded by GIA contains feathers that are harmless is an accurate statement. That part is not selling a bill of goods- it's true.
 

jeaniefish

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

I have to say that my B&M jeweler does a very good business w/o me! I agree that he provides many valuable services and he's my go to guy for any work that I need to have done. He made the gorgeous setting that holds my current diamond.Also, you are totally correct that nothing else compares to being able to see a diamond in person. Having said all that, there is no way that I could afford a D/E diamond in his store or from any other retail jeweler,taking into account the loss I'd have to take on my H color diamond. I don't know what I'm going to decide about the ebay diamond.Trust is so important in a transaction of this kind, and I just don't know what to think about the ebay seller. I want to thank everyone for their input and sharing your knowledge with me.
Jean
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

You're welcome Jean
Just because I don't think the statement about feathers is false- please don't take that as an endorsment of any given seller.
If you posted the eBay listing I'm sure members will comment with more insight.
 

kenny

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Another approach to the issue is to just keep shopping.
Lots of diamonds don't have feathers.

You can think of it as a mind clean thing.
Some people just want a certain color and clarity and prefer a diamond without feathers. :wavey:
Nothing wrong with that.

Keep in mind to consider the source when discussing this subject with vendors.
Even the most honest vendor wants to sell all the diamonds in their inventory so they may argue against my suggestion especially here on PS where every idea reaches lots of buyers.
Their job is to address your fears.

Still it is your right as a buyer to pay attention to your own comfort level with feathers as with every other diamond characteristic.
I'm not saying everyone should never buy any diamond with a feather.
I'm just saying after getting educated it is your right to make your own decision about feathers on a case by case basis, OR just avoid them entirely.
 

Rockdiamond

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Kenny- after having spent a lot of time here it's quite clear that self serving advice won't go very far. Honest vendors won't try and push things on people that don't want them- I certainly would not.
I advise people not to buy from vendors who are pushing things on them.

It's clear that making sure that correct info is presented is important, if the forum is to be educational for all readers.
There is, obviously, a lot of misinformation about feathers.
Don't want a diamond with feathers? Don't buy one.
But feathers are not cracks.
 

Camus

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

jeaniefish|1295471482|2826932 said:
my local B&M jeweler is upset with me because I've told him that his prices, after shopping around online, are kind of high. He says that's because he also offers honest service that you won't find on ebay or anywhere else online. He would likely show me the door if I took in a diamond that I did't buy from him.

This specific comment made me comment on this thread. It's not your responsibility to purchase a stone just because you're afraid of him being angry or upset with you. You're making a large purchase, and it's your job to be informed about what you're buying instead of just trusting him. You would do that with any other purchase, heck we even do it when we buy organic food. We should do the same with our diamonds. I totally agree with what Kenny said, they are in this field and it's "Their job is to address your fears." not make you scared of asking questions. You have every right to have an independent appraiser look at it.

BTW, what's his upgrade policy, warranty, and customer service policy?
 

Camus

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

here we go again... lets not hijack this thread.

RD - Kenny is not saying anything rude to you, don't be so defensive. BTW, he's not the only one who mentioned the point about feathers being fractures.

I don't know the specifics of feathers, could someone else give us accurate information on GIA standards so that we can give correct info to the poster pretty pretty please?
 

Camus

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

LovingDiamonds|1295473879|2826974 said:
The feather appears to be placed where a prong will be (albeit just to the side). So, if you're planning on setting the diamond, if set by a clumsy setter or a great one having a bad day, would there be a possibility of the feather increasing or worse still.

This!

Experts please weight in, I've always wondered about this.
 

kenny

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Camus|1295491207|2827263 said:
RD - Kenny is not saying anything rude to you, don't be so defensive.
BTW, he's not the only one who mentioned the point about feathers being fractures.

True dat!
I did not even read anything he posted in this thread.
Still haven't.
 

jeaniefish

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

After reading all the replies that everyone has been kind enough to take the time to post ,I have to say that I'm a bit more confused about feathers-sorry! Every article that I could find, before asking for help here on PS, said that feathers are actually cracks. My current diamond has no feathers. Am I understanding correctly, according to some of your posts, that GIA diamonds having feathers and graded as VS2 or better, are diamonds in which the feathers don't pose a stability problem? I'm really confused about this.

The ebay seller is not trying to "push" the diamond on me . When I expressed my concerns about the feather in the GIA report, and he replied that it was "harmless", perhaps he meant that this particular feather, in this particular diamond, was nothing to worry about. I don't know. If I follow up on this stone, I certainly will ask him about having it checked by an independant appraiser. I live in a big city so,hopefully, could find someone in the PS directory who can help me. Thanks for that suggestion.

As I said before, I no longer feel comfortable taking a diamond to my local B&M jeweler if I didn't buy it from him in the first place. I think that I could start a whole new discussion about the trials and tribulations of "trading up" your diamond, but that territory may have already been explored- I d.k.
I mentioned that my diamond is one that Brian Gavin recut for me . He and Leslie were great to work with and I was able to talk with Brian in person. He was very patient and knowledgeable, and that was so important to me. I recently visited his website to look at other EC diamonds but found no information regarding trading in diamonds. I suppose the smart thing to do would be to just go ahead and send Leslie an e-mail.
Again, thanks to everyone for your posts and any further clarification regarding feathers would be welcomed.
jean
 

Lorelei

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Hi Jeanie,

My feeling is for the most part, GIA graded feathers of VS2 or higher should not pose a durability problem, but there can be exceptions and if you are concerned, definitely consult an impartial expert and get them to inspect any stone you are thinking of buying if you are worried.

Because of the concerns over feathers, a while back I started a thread to get the opinions of some of our experts on this subject, it might be helpful to you.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/calling-the-experts-when-is-a-feather-an-issue.126601/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/calling-the-experts-when-is-a-feather-an-issue.126601/[/URL]
 

jeaniefish

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

Hi Lorelei,
Thank you so much! I just went to the thread about feathers and it was extremely helpful. I wrote down some of the information, especially the very last reply by Gary. I feel better informed now, and a bit less afraid of feathers .I realize that the safest thing to do would be to have the stone examined by an independant appraiser and not to deal with any seller who wouldn't allow that. I have one question for other members(if I'm allowed to ask this one). Would any of you be willing to post your experiences with trading in your old diamonds to, and buying from, any of the PS vendors? I'm not asking for anyone to solicite business for any vendor, but I think that I can't be the only gal who is ready to trade up and feeling really shaky about the whole process (inc. the dollars lost on current diamond value). If there's already a thread for that, i haven't found it. Is it taboo to talk about that here?
thanks,
jean
 

kenny

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Re: diamond feather - harmless or disaster waiting to happen

You cannot list things for sale here.

I think you are asking whether vendors accept trade ins of stones they did not originally sell.

Even if their official policy is no, if your diamond is a very good one (very easy for them to resell in their market) and you'll accept a low enough price I think every vendor would.
 
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