Another Robbins Brothers victim

[Subdriver97]

Unfortunately, I didn''t find this website until after I bought the below from RB:
Round 1.05ct G SI2 - $5500 (opening price $6450)
6.66-6.72x3.94mm
depth 58.9
table 63
medium, faceted girdle
cutlet none
polish good
sym very good

It''s SI2 because it has a good number of small feathers and a couple tiny crystals near the girdle, also two natural indentations on the pavillion side, and clouds not shown on the GIA. But the diamond is eye clean (really).

I went into RB with the intention of buying a 1.0-1.10 ct, G, VS2 or SI1, very good cut. My intent was an eye clean diamond with maximum brillance for my budget $7500 for the whole deal (18k white gold 6-prong solitaire setting)...the RB total with everything was $6471.50.

After doing a search on this message forum on robbins brothers and reading a few bashes and horror stories I''m prepared to walk in RB on thurs when I''m supposed to pick-up my ring and go for the FULL REFUND....

However, I do like the stone and I''m happy with it in every respect except the price. At RB I also looked at an Echo, a RB Ideal, and two other brand Ideal diamonds (E or A-something I forget the name), but by my eye I liked the one I bought the best. I think I like diamonds with a large table, as a opposed to one with smaller table, I think the ones with smaller sparkle more (the sparkle is tighter)...but I like the clean lines of a wider table.

So if they are willing to give me a fair price on what they sold me I''ll take it, otherwise I''m going FULL REFUND. I tried to do a search online for similar stones but I was having a hard time with judging the cut quality on this stone. Can anyone out there help me out with judging fair price for this diamond.

Other question I have is about cut, after reading about cut on blue nile I was convinced that cut was where the money should really go, but I did see the IDEAL diamonds at RB and I didn''t really see anything special, I''m not sure if it''s the diamons they choose or what? I know this is some what subjective, but to someone that doesn''t know a heck of a lot about diamons (ie. my girlfriend)...how much more would I have to pay for a same ct diamond, to get one that is noticably more brilliant. What I mean by noticably I mean when you put them on the table side-by-side I can instantly see it without picking them up and scrutenizing them? Why would the specs be on something like that?

Thanks in advance.

 

[valeria101]

So... you've got one stone with a big table that you prefer over an ideal cut (is that AGS0 or the store's barnd of "ideals", btw?).

Something with about the same "big table" look but better brilliance would be a round still outside the AGS0 proportions and a high HCA score (meaning with the combination of crown and pavilion angles just so). These brilliant non-ideals usually do not come with Sarin reposts and tests of brilliance - but you could ask a seller that does provide such brilliance grading to provide one, I would think. For example, EGL graded diamodns already come with some of the crucial numbers in place (crown and pavilion heights) so one with a larger table that you like (say, 60% though) could be selected.

Aside hunting down EGL certs online, you could look at the "premium" cut rounds at Dirt Cheap Diamonds - these seem to be non-ideals selected for brilliance, if I am not mistaking.

Hope this helps.

 

[valeria101]

The cahrt below tries to show how lighr return varies for different combinations of crown and pavilion angles for a diamonds with the depth and table like yours... (These charts are generated by the "cut adviser application here, btw)
It seems that quite good overall light return can be acheived with the respective 63% table in place. The look is not the same as H&A rounds' but you said you like it this way.

One way to know how would you diamond compare with the most brilliant achievable for these proportiosn would be to get a Sarin report (or those crown and pavilion angles or heights, somehow) and put the corresponding dot on the chart.

As for the relative cost of extra brilliance, here's one G-SI1 you may find interesting for comaprison. This stone is AGS0 though, so one with less cut pedigree should be less expensive, about 4k perhaps.

 

[fire&ice]

I'm a little confused.

What is your beef w/ RB's? You like the diamond even in comparison w/ other stones more in the "ideal" range.

The person who had a legitimate beef w/ RB was told that her stone was an ideal cut. And, she paid a premium for it. Doesn't sound like this is the case here.

 

[fancycoloredfan]

I don't think your table is too large - it's more of a medium table. I agree w/ the others - if you like the stone and the setting, why not keep it? With diamonds it's not just about getting the best price (although that is one aspect). It takes time and effort to find what you like, find a jeweler you like to work with etc.- especially since you seem to actually like the diamond you bought.

-Ariana

 

[Subdriver97]

Okay, maybe victim was a bit strong choice of wording, but how do you feel when you buy something (something you really like) and then find out that you could have got either 1) the same thing for less or 2) something better for the same price.

As for same thing for a lower price, I'm not a diamond expert, but I have seen enough diamonds to know that I can pretty much pick-out the inclusions with the naked-eye on a SI2 and on this SI2 I couldn't pick out anything. Even under 10x is was somewhat difficult to find them as there are just lots of little inclusions.

As for something better for the same price, my goal was to buy a eye clean diamond I know that I can buy any VS2 diamond (on the internet) and be assured that it will have no inclusions. I think I would have to look pretty hard to find another SI2 as clean as this, on the other hand I found it at the first place that I when to look for diamonds (albeit I was there for 8 hours...and saw about 8-9 stones...you know I was expecting to look at like 30 stones...but I guess you get confused if you see too many, but I swear everytime the salesman went to get another stone he brought something he wanted to show me instead of exactly what I wanted to see.

So I do think it's RB fault for selling me something that I could have got for a lower price when they constantly say how they really want you to get the best value for your money. I don't call paying too much for something, the best value for my money. And if it was only a couple hundred dollars, it wouldn't bother me so much, but I paid $6471.50 total, and I know they charged me too much for the ring $150 & setting $249 (18k white gold 6-prong solitaire) as well. I think they charged me more than a thousand dollars too much as I've found similar diamonds on whitestar for that much less, for example:

WhiteStar Item Code:
2612107
Price:$4,211.00
Report:GIA
Shape:Round
Carat:1.06
Color:G
Clarity:SI2
Depth:59.4
Table:62
Girdle:T-M
Polish:Good
Symmetry:Good
Culet:None
Fluorescence:No
Measurements:6.70-6.61X3.95

or

 1.06 G  SI2
 GIA 58.4 62
 $3,615.00

I don't think Robbins Bros tried to take me to the cleaners the bottom line is they don't give you fair quality for a fair price, but they certainly have a premium, I mean how else are they going to pay for all their advertising? But still, I do like the stone that I bought, and I would be willingly to stick with the purchase if they are willing to give me a fair price on it.
 
If I do return, I'm debating if I'm going to just try to find a similar eye clean SI2 stone for the price that I think is fair. Or go with my entire $7500 and try to find something more brilliant. I mean if that's my budget will I be able to find a stone that is noticably more brilliant? When I say noticably I mean when I look at the stones for about 10 seconds next to each other I'm like yeah that one is definately more brilliant, and not scrutinzing them to say, ok I think that one is more brilliant.

So is okay that I like the large table diamond, or am I smoking crack...I just think that the designer diamonds that he showed me look smaller and darker, although they have tighter sparkle... Like if you rotate the designer diamond you get lots and lots of sparkle that is really close together...the large table don't sparkle near as many times, but I feel like the sparkle is strong (but that might be my imagination)...and I like that the large table is more translucent.

Rob

 

[aljdewey]

Okay, maybe victim was a bit strong choice of wording, but how do you feel when you buy something (something you really like) and then find out that you could have got either 1) the same thing for less or 2) something better for the same price.

If that were to happen to me, I'd have to acknowledge that it happened because I didn't do my homework. It's not up to any vendor to ask you if you've shopped around....that's your job.

I don't know why you're getting into the whole SI2 thing....if it's eyeclean, great. Where's the problem?

As far as the "other diamonds" you found for less.....Rob, you seriously need to learn more before making this purchase. Just because they are the same color, clarity, carat weight does *not* mean they are "similar" diamonds. Do you know that pricing of a diamond is affected by several other things....including make, polish, symmetry, thickness of the girdle, etc., etc.

You wouldn't assume that every black car with four wheels and two doors should be the same price, would you? (Car analogy courtest of aljdewey as a present to F&I...hehheehhee)

Rob, if you really care about getting a fair price on a diamond, then take the time to learn about the product you're trying to buy. You'll have better success that way.

 

[LaserLady]

There is no question that you can and will find better deals on the internet. In general there is little to no overhead for internet based diamond companies, and they definitely aren't paying for free-standing, strip mall, or major mall locations. In many cases they have no need to advertise at all. Each of the above mentioned costs add hundreds if not thousands to the price of the diamond once it reaches the showcase.

I know I'm going to regret the automotive analogy I'm about to make, because I once saw a thread that lasted FOREVER due to car analogies.

With that said...
I bought a Pre-owned Lexus which, we all must agree, is a glorified Toyota. Ever notice that all used cars these days are called "Pre-owned" I guess they think they are fooling us by making it sound more sophisticated. OK, back to the story....
But, I chose to buy a Lexus because of what the car looked like AND the amazing customer service at the dealership (before, during, and after the sale). Whenever the car "hiccuped" representatives at the dealership were there to back up their promise to always take care of me. I know I could have found the same "pre-owned" car elswhere for less. But I like the idea of having someone to look in the eye when I have a "hiccup."

With THAT said......
There is absolutely nothing wrong with buying diamonds thru the internet. You will almost always get a better price and there is nothing on a diamond that can breakdown so you really don't HAVE to have the "face to face" after the sale. Just remember, it's nice to have a local jeweler that you can trust and one that knows your name when you walk in the door.

With a few exceptions, it will always cost you a little more for a handshake vs an email.

 

[yowahking]

Although I have no personal experience with RB, one of my employees worked for them for a few years so I do know some of structure. They position themselves as the largest selection of engagement rings. Some people like selection. I was in Vegas this weekend and ate at Rum Jungle because the fire pit dinner is fantastic. The Rum Jungle has the largest selection of rum in the world. I ordered a drink and did not care that the price may have been cheaper in another place, the point was the selection. If it is price you are after, there is always a way to find it cheaper. Just as you find the cheapest person, your friend may get divorced and want to sell a diamond at half what you just found. If you are interested in better prices, but want local service, there are jewelers who will work as tight as internet sources to gain your business for other items, repairs, and word of mouth. There are also internet companies that offer much better service than some jewelers do, you just have to ship things. At least RB does training to give you better sales staff than many jewelers offer.

 

[Subdriver97]

If that were to happen to me, I'd have to acknowledge that it happened because I didn't do my homework. It's not up to any vendor to ask you if you've shopped around....that's your job.

I'm no diamond expert, I'll admit that. That's exactly why I'm here in this forum....to learn something for those of you out there that know more than me. I have done a good share of reading, but I think I've only viewed about 50 diamonds in my lifetime.

I don't know why you're getting into the whole SI2 thing....if it's eyeclean, great. Where's the problem?

While it is completely true that you must see a diamond to properly judge a diamond, as far as I can tell, diamonds are priced based on their numbers. Say you have diamond A with lesser numbers with price LOW and and diamond B with higher numbers with price HIGH. I will certainly conceed that either could be the "better diamond"...in fact I posted that I choose the SI2 diamond that I bought over several designer diamonds including an ECHO, ELEXIA, and RB Ideal Cut...but the diamond with less numbers will always cost lest than the diamond with better numbers. (If I'm wrong about that please let me know.)

As far as the "other diamonds" you found for less.....Rob, you seriously need to learn more before making this purchase. Just because they are the same color, clarity, carat weight does *not* mean they are "similar" diamonds. Do you know that pricing of a diamond is affected by several other things....including make, polish, symmetry, thickness of the girdle, etc., etc.

Again, I agree...there is more than 4 C's...and I'm completely aware of those other numbers...the SI2 diamond I bought has a medium faceted girdle and I was told by the salesman that it is one of the reasons that it signifigantly brilliant (can anyone confirm that?) But given that the other things are the same...polish, symmetry, thickness of the girdle...and the C's are better, then the diamond with the better C's will cost more... What I'm saying is I could have got more C's with all other things equal for the same price.

If nothing else I think for $6500 I'm pretty sure that I can get a 1.05 G VS1 with a descent cut and would probably look the same as my diamond. I guess I am getting too wrapped around the axle about the SI2 grading...but that's two whole grades and from my research that's worth something in the range of $1000.


Rob, if you really care about getting a fair price on a diamond, then take the time to learn about the product you're trying to buy. You'll have better success that way.

Agreed, please teach me. I'm listening...or direct me to places where I can learn, ok? Lastly, I didn't want to buy the diamond and shop around and come back but they convinced me to buy the diamond and shop around and take advantage of the 30 day customer satifaction policy.

Rob

 

[Subdriver97]

Laserlady,

Okay, I acknowledge what you said about buying via handshake and buying via email. My question to you is how much is that handshake worth to you? Is it worth $1000+ on a $4000 diamond? 25%? That's a stiff premium.

Also, I'm an active duty military officer so that means it is very unlikely that I will be in southern california for very much longer (where RB is based).

Rob

 

[MrsFrk]

While I'm certainly sorry that you're disappointed, let's not forget that jewelry stores are not non-profit organizations! They are in business to make money.

On Saturday I bought a rosebush at Home Depot. On Sunday I saw the same rose at Summer Winds, a bit lusher and taller, for 2 dollars less. Home Depot did not victimize me. It was simply cheaper elsewhere.

I can buy Mobil One cheaper at Kragen, but I choose to buy it from my local independently owned automotive parts store. I want them to stay in business. When I need help with a problem, or a part special ordered, they take care of me.

 

[Greg]

Robbins Brothers has a price-match policy and, in my experience, will match internet diamond prices (just bring in a printout of a similar diamond).

They'll tell you that when you buy a diamond from them, that you get more than the diamond, you get their warranty...blah, blah, blah. Their warranty doesn't cover lost or stolen rings though, so you have to get insurance anyway...so it's not worth the several thousand dollars they like to tack on to the price of the diamond.

Also, make sure the stone is a GIA cert. Robbins Brothers like to sneak AIG (their pet lab) certified stones to those who don't know better.

 

[Subdriver97]

----------------
On 9/1/2004 6:57:17 PM MrsFrk wrote:

While I'm certainly sorry that you're disappointed, let's not forget that jewelry stores are not non-profit organizations! They are in business to make money.

On Saturday I bought a rosebush at Home Depot. On Sunday I saw the same rose at Summer Winds, a bit lusher and taller, for 2 dollars less. Home Depot did not victimize me. It was simply cheaper elsewhere.

I can buy Mobil One cheaper at Kragen, but I choose to buy it from my local independently owned automotive parts store. I want them to stay in business. When I need help with a problem, or a part special ordered, they take care of me. ----------------

Okay, I get it...VICTIM WAS TOO STRONG A WORD TO CHOOSE...I TAKE IT BACK. Here's what I have to say about service...I understand that you have to pay a bit more for better service...etc. But how much more should you have to pay for that?

RB offers:
Lifetime Warrenty on the Diamond - This is pointless, a diamond pretty much the most indestructible material on the planet...isn't that why they were choosen as a "timeless" symbol of love? Also, it doesn't cover any type of loss or theft so you need insurance anyways which would cover that this covers
Lifetime upgrade - (buy a diamond at 2x price of your original diamond and you can turn in your original diamond and put that money toward the bigger diamond) If I ever upgrade I'm keeping the original as a keepsake.
Free Cleaning - yeah exactly, it's free at any jewelry store whether you bought it there or not
Ring Service - well you get to pay $75 for 5 years of jewelry service (prong repair, polish, rhodium, etc, ok $75 for 5 years is probably worth it...but I'm paying $75 for 5 years so why should I pay $1000+ in the first place?

That's it...

As far as I know all jewelry stores will offer you a handshake when you walk in. And if it's a reputable one and you pay a reputable price then they will give you reputable service.

What I'm saying is $6500 is NOT a reputable price for G SI2 1.05CT (see other numbers in previous post).

 

[Subdriver97]

So... you've got one stone with a big table that you prefer over an ideal cut (is that AGS0 or the store's barnd of 'ideals', btw?).

The ideal cuts that I choose my SI2 diamond over where:
1 ECHO diamond
2 ELEXIA (sp?) diamonds
1 Robbin's Brothers store IDEAL cut

Where can I learn more about HCA?

 

[Subdriver97]

As for the relative cost of extra brilliance, here's one G-SI1 you may find interesting for comaprison. This stone is AGS0 though, so one with less cut pedigree should be less expensive, about 4k perhaps.

I think the above illustrates my point exactly, I could have easily bought the above diamond and had extra money to spare. I want to know if there is really chance that my SI2 diamond would be better than a DCD signature round...I mean is there?

 

[Greg]

As you do your research, jot down the proportions that various sources consider ideal (no one really agrees), then when you return to re-negotiate with RB -- a perfectly reasonable thing to do -- ask to see stones with proportions like those you've researched. You should see a difference between cuts. Also, hold the stone away from the light (either turn your back to it or hold it under the table. Sometimes that makes the differences between the light return of the stones more profound.

Run a search on HCA here and you'll get a flood of info on it. But since you're actually looking at the stone, it matters less than it would for sight-unseen purchases.

 

[valeria101]

----------------
On 9/1/2004 7:10:26 PM Subdriver97 wrote:



1 Robbin's Brothers store IDEAL cut

Where can I learn more about HCA?

----------------

Well, of course every shop can call every diamond they have "ideal" as long as you have not decided what it is that you want, precisely. I am affraid that "precisely" has to include more about cut, since it's details are definitely taken into consideration by whoever makes those prices.

For now, premium (literally) cuts follow more or les closely a rather narrow set of proportions (crown and pavilion angles, and the H&A symmetry). Even if you do put up with 65% for table instead of 55% it's still nice to avoind overpriced goods. If you end up not liking the look of H&A & AGS0 rounds per se, than all is well and you will make same savings. For what I see, the stone that you bought was neither ideal (as above) nor a bargain and the shopping experience does not sound excellent either.

I would not pay too much attention if a diamond is called "ideal" based on table and depth (=as on GIA report) measurements alone. So... I can't tell from your story if those diamonds were anywhere near the look and brilliance I expect from a diamond with AGS0 proportions and Harts and Arrows symmetry (= one of those cuts that could either qualify for a top H&A brand or carry one).

There will likely be more expensive AGS0 diamodns out there, but DCD's Signature in particluar is a good place to look for VS2-SI diamonds. And I just happened to look down there first. Since these H&A rounds are cut to very tight proportions, they make a pretty safe bet to buy over the net. The sellers have allot of tools to prove that their stones are up to this AGS0 and H&A standard, so this is hardly "sight unseen" anymore.

Reading through the tutorial here, or others about ideal cut rounds and comparing prices would help more, of course. A few shops get into even more detail - see Good Old Gold and Nice Ice or www.preciousmetals.com.au for a whole ideal dimaonds novel. Most these sites struggle to put the same technicals into a pallatable form.

The big difference between these sources and a store's "ideal" is that the same standard applies to quite a crowd so you can compare diamonds instead of buying what just one seller calls "best".

Hope this makes sense.

 

[MrsFrk]

Return it then, and start from scratch. There are many knowledgable, enthusiastic folks here who can help you find exactly what you want. A diamond is a huge purchase, a lot of moolah, you should be happy with what you buy.

 

[Subdriver97]

When I was at RB and scrutinzing the Ideal cut diamonds that they presented I matched the table and depth percentages to the cut chart on the Blue Nile website. Only the RB store IDEAL feel into Bile Nile's table/depth ranges for a Ideal, the others (ECHO and ALEXIA cut) feel into very good or even good.

Again thanks to everyone for their comments, I may not agree with all your opinions, but I respect your right to them.

Rob

 

[fire&ice]

Since you have already *bought* the diamond, you aren't in the best of negotiating positions. Also, regarding the price match, if you do a search about RB, someone had a real hard time & got the run around about this.

You can always ask for a price break; but, it seems to me beyond that - you have two choices. Keep the ring or return it & start over.

 

[Subdriver97]

----------------
On 9/2/2004 10:52:47 AM fire&ice wrote:

Since you have already *bought* the diamond, you aren't in the best of negotiating positions. Also, regarding the price match, if you do a search about RB, someone had a real hard time & got the run around about this.

You can always ask for a price break; but, it seems to me beyond that - you have two choices. Keep the ring or return it & start over. ----------------

You know I was actually under the impression that if I walked into RB and said that I want a full refund that they would try to negotiate a price break. That's why I was trying to figure out a "fair" value for this stone, because I do like it.

If not, I'll just return it and start over, it won't be hard to find a similar stone for the same price.

Thanks for you comments.
Rob

 

[Greg]

RB has a 30 day return policy. I've returned stones and renegotiated price (after the purchase) with them on a few occasions without any trouble at all.

 

[Subdriver97]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I returned the stone to RB with no problems.

 

[fire&ice]

----------------
On 9/7/2004 8:24:33 PM Subdriver97 wrote:

Just wanted to let everyone know that I returned the stone to RB with no problems.----------------

Did they offer to negotiate with you after the fact?

 

[MrsFrk]

Oh, I'm glad to hear you were able to return it with no problem! Now the real hunt begins. Yippeee!