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What determine''s an appraiser''s status as "independent"?

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Please, please, please ................ don''t let the Gov''t regulate anything.
Look at Fannie and Freddie, and the total mess US and the EU regulators have managed to get us into.
 

Karl_K

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Date: 5/7/2010 8:40:18 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Please, please, please ................ don''t let the Gov''t regulate anything.

Look at Fannie and Freddie, and the total mess US and the EU regulators have managed to get us into.
The dept of professional registration does a very good job in IL
They register everything from security guards to physical therapists to hair dressers to insurance agents and set the requirements to be registered.
It is probably the only government agency in IL that actually works however.
They would be the ones to handle it in IL.
 

Diamond Explorer

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I think receiving an "independent appraisal" is of more importance than having an "independent appraiser". Meaning that the appraisal should be independent of the sale.

For example: even though I could not be considered an "independent appraiser" by the fact I regularly buy and sell jewelery and its components, I could certainly give an "independent appraisal" for a customer on outside purchases and to insure existing jewelry. While this is not my business, I am willing to provide "independent appraisals" on jewelry items for customers as a matter of service.

Why wouldn't my opinion on outside transactions be considered "independent"?
 

John P

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Date: 5/10/2010 11:01:06 PM
Author: Diamond Explorer

I think receiving an 'independent appraisal' is of more importance than having an 'independent appraiser'.
If handled correctly I also find it fair and reasonable: Fair when a truly disinterested party with the necessary proficiency is involved, and reasonable because the potential talent pool is larger when you don't exclude candidates who also interact within the trade.

But - regardless of our chatboard cussin' and discussin' - my experience with consumers still points to a larger elephant in the room: The general public often presumes that appraisers are somehow licensed or regulated. Without knowing differently the questions we're discussing here may never occur to the people who most need to ask them.
 

Regular Guy

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Date: 5/10/2010 11:01:06 PM
Author: Diamond Explorer

Why wouldn''t my opinion on outside transactions be considered ''independent''?
Jonathan, if you could set up an "appraisal by agreement" arrangement, as outlined here, you''re good.

Otherwise, I believe it''s thought that your opinion would be problematic for the reasons I further wrote about, here:

" An appraiser should not accept the job to appraise, if they have the option of bringing out another diamond for their client to consider they have for sale, as an alternate to the one brought in for appraising. Too much slippery slope. In my first attempts to find an appraiser last year (now many years ago), turning to the yellow pages, I called a fellow calling himself an appraiser, telling him my intent, and he did let me know upfront that he could appraise, but would want the opportunity also to sell to me an option he made available for sale, as selling diamonds was his primary line of business. I knew from that point forward I wouldn''t find his services helpful for what I was looking for."
 

oldminer

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To really be totally Independent one would not need to work for a living at all, but have enough money to live in the style they choose wthout working for money. Such an appraiser would be hard to find.

Short of the above, one needs to find a person with enough credibility to place your trust in their ethics and good intentions. This is the most common situation and many appraisers who claim to be Independent are able to be relied upon for their ethics and good intentions. The problem is that most appraisers barely make a living doing only appraising so they often find themselves somewhat compromised by other work, other customers and the need to earn money. Ethics and good intentions often fall victim to such strong forces.

It is my experience that temptation is less interesting to those appraisers capable of choosing to do the right thing because they are not forced into compromising ethics and good intentions due to a shortage of income. Also, one must be vigilant that the appraiser who claims to be qualified is really sufficiently skilled to do the work you need. Lack of kinowledge can lead to incorrect appraisal results just as easily as pressure from money, other parts of their business, or ethical compromise.

For most appraisers it takes years to get a good handle on general valuation and techniques. Software programs which appraisers often buy can make worthless opinions look highly professional and how would anyone except another expert ever know that? You can't. Masses of pages and complex paperwork may be good eye-wash, but it may not contain accurate data about the appraised items. There are so many ways to go wrong that listening to recommendations and reading appraisers resumes makes good sense. Independence is found only with those who know how to act properly and who are able to follow these best instincts. Not everyone can do it regardless of what they do in the overall to make a living.
 

denverappraiser

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We have two separate, and in my opinion equally important questions here. The first is posted in the headline and is what makes an appraiser independent.

The other is what makes an appraiser.

The former has been addressed from several positions in prior post and the second is getting danced about. Is it training? Is it credentials? Is it industry experience? Is it good common sense? Is it gemological talent? Something else perhaps? It’s a complicated soup and like many things in this business, it’s not going to have a straight answer but I think it’s all of these things and more. The client and/or intended user needs to get information that they can reasonably believe to be accurate, truthful and useful. Lose any one of these and it becomes at best a waste of time and paper and possibly can be seriously misleading. We’re all aware of some of the serious abuses that appear in the appraisal profession and, in particular, with appraisals of jewelry and in nearly every case of problems, the appraiser KNEW that they were stepping over or at least near the line on at least one of these three tenants when they prepared the report. This means that the first step is that the appraiser themselves must believe that they are capable and eligible for the job at hand and present themselves as such and, step 2 is to convince the client of that. It’s up to the client to decide if they’ve made a persuasive case and to give them the job.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver
 

Richard Sherwood

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I don''t think it''s prudent to throw out (or dilute) the category of independent appraiser. There''s a bonafide reason why this term came about.

Perhaps we could arrive at a Pricescope definition of what differentiates an independent appraiser from a non-independent.

For what it''s worth, this is the dividing line that I have always thought differentiates an independent from a non-independent. I always thought it was such a given that I was surprised to hear disagreement regarding it.

An independent appraiser does not buy or sell (period), nor does he accept commissions or kickbacks (in any form) for referrals to dealers who do so.

This position is in my opinion the very first and essential plank of neutraility upon which an appraiser would build his reputation as independent. It is a position that allows both the public and dealers alike to relax that the appraiser does not have a present or future vested interest in the outcome of the transaction which has generated the work he has been contracted for.

It''s not the "end all", and as pointed out there are other influences which can tug upon an appraiser''s independence (such a reliance upon a large amount of business from one industry client), but at least it''s a start that the majority of the trade and consumers alike already agree upon.

A very basic, very simple start.
 

Garry H (Cut Nut)

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Rich surely you would buy and sell for some people - where would you draw the line:
1. family
2. very close friends
3. associates
4. friends of friends
5. inlaws and outlaws
6. very very rich people (Bill gates?)
 

Modified Brilliant

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Rich,

Just wondering if you ever get asked by a retailer to do
a full appraisal of an item that they purchased over the counter from the general public.
They want to know the provenance, era, diamond quality, etc and a retail value to help
re-sell the item. In other words, they are seeking "an analysis from an outside source who is
independent." Your thoughts? Isn''t this the same as a retailer sending a diamond to GIA for
a lab report?
 

Richard Sherwood

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Date: 5/20/2010 6:44:12 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Rich surely you would buy and sell for some people - where would you draw the line:
1. family
2. very close friends
3. associates
4. friends of friends
5. inlaws and outlaws
6. very very rich people (Bill gates?)
Garry, in order to protect my reputation as an independent appraiser, I don''t buy or sell for any one. I get asked to all the time, but I reply "my position as an independent appraiser does not allow me to buy or sell. If you like, I can give you a list of people I consider high integrity vendors with good prices, but I am in no way associated with them and do not receive compensation from them."

When you do this consistently, year after year, people begin to get the idea that you really are independent, and take it seriously. Then they start to relax around you, knowing that you value your position of neutrality. Dealers stop worrying that you''re going to steal their customers, and privates don''t worry that you might be in collusion with other dealers, or alter your opinions because of some vested interest of one sort or another.

I''m reminded of Cap Beesley, former owner and originator of AGL Laboratory. He too held his status as independent very dear. Two stories emphasize this. One was a personal experience I had with him, back when I owned my jewelry store, and was a prolific buyer and seller. I purchased an estate in which there was a particularly beautiful sapphire. I sent it to Cap, and it certed Kashmir. I asked him if I could have a couple NY buyers I knew stop by and look at the stone while it was at his lab. He graciously said yes.

After two seperate buyers made two seperate visits, I sold the stone to one for a handsome profit. In gratitude, I called Cap up and said, "Cap, I''d like to send you a thousand dollars in appreciation of allowing those dealers to view the stone at your laboratory."

He answered, "Rich, I appreciate that, but being of an independent status I cannot accept any form of commission involved in a buy-sell transaction. Thanks for your business though."

That impressed the hell out of me. He didn''t say, "wait just a moment while I take my independent lab hat off and put my merchant hat on. Okay, now I''ll take that thousand, thank you very much." I never forgot his response, and it made me trust him all the more in future business.

The second was a well publicized incident in which Cap sued a dealer who was telling people that he (Cap) had profited from the sale of an important gemstone. The dealer was proven wrong in court, and Cap won the case. What impressed me about that incident was the length to which he was willing to go to protect his status as an independent.
 

Karl_K

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I remember when we had this discussion when RockDoc was with us, makes me sad that he is not here for this round to weigh in on the issue.

His response would be very principled and idealistic.

No buying or selling period and no work for the trade period.

His opinion in many ways set my opinion and sets the highest standard.

RIP Bill you are missed.
 

Richard Sherwood

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Sep 25, 2002
Messages
4,924
Date: 5/20/2010 8:46:43 AM
Author: Modified Brilliant
Rich,

Just wondering if you ever get asked by a retailer to do
a full appraisal of an item that they purchased over the counter from the general public.
They want to know the provenance, era, diamond quality, etc and a retail value to help
re-sell the item. In other words, they are seeking ''an analysis from an outside source who is
independent.'' Your thoughts? Isn''t this the same as a retailer sending a diamond to GIA for
a lab report?
In my opinion, yes. I even state on my apprasier bio that:

"SGL recognizes that members of the trade need quality gemological services as much as private consumers, and offers their services equally and
impartially to both, as does GIA, AGS and EGL."

RockDoc and I used to disagree on this point. His definition of an independent went so far as to say doing work for dealers excluded one from that category.

If you use that definition, then none of the major labs could be considered independent.

I understand his intention (no bias towards a dealer who gives you a lot of business), but feel that dealers are customers too. They usually aren''t gemologists, and need that service. If every appraiser or lab took Rockdoc''s attitude, dealers wouldn''t have anywhere to go for an "independent" opinion.

I miss ol'' RockDoc too. He was my favorite sparring partner.
 

Modified Brilliant

Brilliant_Rock
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Date: 5/20/2010 4:44:29 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood



Date: 5/20/2010 8:46:43 AM
Author: Modified Brilliant
Rich,

Just wondering if you ever get asked by a retailer to do
a full appraisal of an item that they purchased over the counter from the general public.
They want to know the provenance, era, diamond quality, etc and a retail value to help
re-sell the item. In other words, they are seeking ''an analysis from an outside source who is
independent.'' Your thoughts? Isn''t this the same as a retailer sending a diamond to GIA for
a lab report?
In my opinion, yes. I even state on my apprasier bio that:

''SGL recognizes that members of the trade need quality gemological services as much as private consumers, and offers their services equally and
impartially to both, as does GIA, AGS and EGL.''

RockDoc and I used to disagree on this point. His definition of an independent went so far as to say doing work for dealers excluded one from that category.

If you use that definition, then none of the major labs could be considered independent.

I understand his intention (no bias towards a dealer who gives you a lot of business), but feel that dealers are customers too. They usually aren''t gemologists, and need that service. If every appraiser or lab took Rockdoc''s attitude, dealers wouldn''t have anywhere to go for an ''independent'' opinion.

I miss ol'' RockDoc too. He was my favorite sparring partner.
I agree with you Rich. especially concerning retailers who know and trust us who want to use our services
and need expertise. Not many retailers have the time or need to know a great deal about Art Deco, for example, or any period jewelry wheras
it''s what we do and a part of how we make a living. Simply put, I''m in the "information" business with no inventory or
agenda other than to provide my clients with the information that they need (consumer or dealer).
Like you said, we can provide an opinion or service and still remain independent.
 

Modified Brilliant

Brilliant_Rock
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Date: 5/20/2010 1:12:31 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood

Date: 5/20/2010 6:44:12 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
Rich surely you would buy and sell for some people - where would you draw the line:
1. family
2. very close friends
3. associates
4. friends of friends
5. inlaws and outlaws
6. very very rich people (Bill gates?)
Garry, in order to protect my reputation as an independent appraiser, I don''t buy or sell for any one. I get asked to all the time, but I reply ''my position as an independent appraiser does not allow me to buy or sell. If you like, I can give you a list of people I consider high integrity vendors with good prices, but I am in no way associated with them and do not receive compensation from them.''

When you do this consistently, year after year, people begin to get the idea that you really are independent, and take it seriously. Then they start to relax around you, knowing that you value your position of neutrality. Dealers stop worrying that you''re going to steal their customers, and privates don''t worry that you might be in collusion with other dealers, or alter your opinions because of some vested interest of one sort or another.

I''m reminded of Cap Beesley, former owner and originator of AGL Laboratory. He too held his status as independent very dear. Two stories emphasize this. One was a personal experience I had with him, back when I owned my jewelry store, and was a prolific buyer and seller. I purchased an estate in which there was a particularly beautiful sapphire. I sent it to Cap, and it certed Kashmir. I asked him if I could have a couple NY buyers I knew stop by and look at the stone while it was at his lab. He graciously said yes.

After two seperate buyers made two seperate visits, I sold the stone to one for a handsome profit. In gratitude, I called Cap up and said, ''Cap, I''d like to send you a thousand dollars in appreciation of allowing those dealers to view the stone at your laboratory.''

He answered, ''Rich, I appreciate that, but being of an independent status I cannot accept any form of commission involved in a buy-sell transaction. Thanks for your business though.''

That impressed the hell out of me. He didn''t say, ''wait just a moment while I take my independent lab hat off and put my merchant hat on. Okay, now I''ll take that thousand, thank you very much.'' I never forgot his response, and it made me trust him all the more in future business.

The second was a well publicized incident in which Cap sued a dealer who was telling people that he (Cap) had profited from the sale of an important gemstone. The dealer was proven wrong in court, and Cap won the case. What impressed me about that incident was the length to which he was willing to go to protect his status as an independent.
It''s very natural for a consumer to ask us as professionals who we recommend. They figure that with 30+ years in the jewelry business, we must know who provides the best quality product and best service along with best prices. I will mention at least half a dozen but never endorse a certain vendor or jeweler.
Consumers want honesty and professional advice. We can offer that and still remain independent.

My physician often gives several referrals of specialists when asked, instead of just one.
I figure he wouldn''t give me the name of someone that wasn''t good. He''s been a doctor for 20 years and would be foolish to send his patients to someone that wasn''t good. His good name and reputation would be on the line.
 

Regular Guy

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Joined
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I think this topic may relate to multitasking.

That said, I think any given person may be exception, but unless you know otherwise, best to follow the rule.

Google helps you identify the rule. Type in: Multitasking, and a number of other options come up you can select from to add to it: I chose: study...yielding the search term: multitasking study. An obvious choice was this one.

I think there are exceptions to the rule. I don''t know if you remember the scene from Red October, where Sean Connery needed to be right on point as a missile or some such was approaching his sub, and then asked a colleague some sort of question at the same time, making folks wonder if he wasn''t out of his mind to try to explore something entirely optional and high minded, simultaneously.

Practically, I think the topic is probably complex (relating at least to multitasking), and when dealing with my son, who prefers to listen to music and do homework, I only sometimes insist he only do the one thing at a time. My wife...she frequently multitasks, and although I lover her, in her case, I believe the rule largely works, though this is not a comment as to her net enjoyment of the combination of activities (including conversing with me).

I think if given the choice of avoiding multitasking, this has it''s advantages...unless you have some basis for knowing better.
 

Rockdiamond

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Amazing points Rich- the incidents with Cap Beesley hammer home your point beyond a doubt.
Put a drop of red paint into a bucket of white, and it''s pink- ain''t never going to be white again......
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Date: 5/21/2010 1:23:36 PM
Author: Richard Sherwood
Ohhh, great (pink paint) analogy...
better than a car analogy
Is a pink car with 3 wheels still a car?
 
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