Calling HR People- Need advice on salary negotiation

[Clairitek]

I''m fortunate enough to be negotiating a job offer right now for a really wonderful position. They made a great initial offer, but its still below the national average for salary this year for people in my position. The kicker is that I will be living in one of the most expensive places in the country to live- The SF Bay Area.

I am due to have a conversation with them in the next day or two about my thoughts on the offer. I want to ask for more money because based on what I''ve seen for cost of living expenses, theres no way my husband and I could maintain the same lifestyle we have currently out there on my salary alone. Sure, we could cut back (we don''t live extravagently now anyway) and theres a good chance he will find a job but I don''t want to assume he will find employment.

So how do I go about asking for more? Between the fact that they are offering me a below-average salary and the cost of living is so high there I feel like I have a good reason to ask for more. Its not greed or anything that is motivating me, its just wanting to make a sound financial choice for my family.

The other thing that is holding me back from taking this offer right now is the fact that half of our net worth is in our home. If we sell, we will lose it all- roughly equal to 1/3 of a year of salary for me. I don''t expect them to pay for a choice we made before the offer came through, but if I made enough that I know we could have a reasonable lifestyle AND save money for the future on my salary alone, it would be much easier to eat the cost of buying the house.

Any advice from anyone who has been through this process (on either end of it) is welcome. I just don''t want to come off greedy and cause them to rescind their offer.

 

[winelover23]

Hey lady, I sit in the HR office so I hear a lot of the goings on in salary negotiations. The most important thing is A) the squeeky wheel gets the grease and B) the worst that happens is they say "no". That being said, have you gotten information off of say salary wizard in regards to the type of position and it''s average pay? You should for sure be equipped w/ at least that. Also are they paying for any of your moving expenses? I''ve never heard of a reasonable job offer not including SOME funds to go towards moving. Big job offers like this are just like buying a house or a car. They are going to low ball you and HOPE that you aren''t smart enough to counter offer. Absolutely do not settle for less than you are worth UNLESS this is going to end up opening up a ton of other opportunities for you and you are certain you could live w/ the decision. It''s really just a matter of saying "I had x figure in mind based on a, b and c" Being in the same industry as you C-Tek, I know how freaking cheap they can be and with everything that has opened up lately I know they can afford more.

 

[Clairitek]

Date: 3/10/2010 11:10:11 AM
Author: winelover23
Hey lady, I sit in the HR office so I hear a lot of the goings on in salary negotiations. The most important thing is A) the squeeky wheel gets the grease and B) the worst that happens is they say ''no''. That being said, have you gotten information off of say salary wizard in regards to the type of position and it''s average pay? You should for sure be equipped w/ at least that. Also are they paying for any of your moving expenses? I''ve never heard of a reasonable job offer not including SOME funds to go towards moving. Big job offers like this are just like buying a house or a car. They are going to low ball you and HOPE that you aren''t smart enough to counter offer. Absolutely do not settle for less than you are worth UNLESS this is going to end up opening up a ton of other opportunities for you and you are certain you could live w/ the decision. It''s really just a matter of saying ''I had x figure in mind based on a, b and c'' Being in the same industry as you C-Tek, I know how freaking cheap they can be and with everything that has opened up lately I know they can afford more.

Thankfully they did offer an extensive relocation package. Lump sum, shipping all of our crap + a car, and tax assistance. So at least that won''t cost us anything.

I do have the average salary according to NACE- which is an organization that collects starting salary data for recent grads of all majors and degree levels for the use of university career centers. What they offered me is about 5% lower than this average.

A friend of mine is also negotating with them and when he asked for more in his base salary the HR person came back with how they calculated out his worth. Thing is, his offer IS very very fair. Its actually MORE than the national average for his degree level. Not the case for me! I feel like a large part of my lowball offer is the fact that I simply didn''t ask for enough on my application. I had no idea about my worth when I filled it out.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 3/10/2010 10:46:01 AM
Author:Clairitek
I''m fortunate enough to be negotiating a job offer right now for a really wonderful position. They made a great initial offer, but its still below the national average for salary this year for people in my position. The kicker is that I will be living in one of the most expensive places in the country to live- The SF Bay Area.

I am due to have a conversation with them in the next day or two about my thoughts on the offer. I want to ask for more money because based on what I''ve seen for cost of living expenses, theres no way my husband and I could maintain the same lifestyle we have currently out there on my salary alone. Sure, we could cut back (we don''t live extravagently now anyway) and theres a good chance he will find a job but I don''t want to assume he will find employment.

So how do I go about asking for more? Between the fact that they are offering me a below-average salary and the cost of living is so high there I feel like I have a good reason to ask for more. Its not greed or anything that is motivating me, its just wanting to make a sound financial choice for my family.

The other thing that is holding me back from taking this offer right now is the fact that half of our net worth is in our home. If we sell, we will lose it all- roughly equal to 1/3 of a year of salary for me. I don''t expect them to pay for a choice we made before the offer came through, but if I made enough that I know we could have a reasonable lifestyle AND save money for the future on my salary alone, it would be much easier to eat the cost of buying the house.

Any advice from anyone who has been through this process (on either end of it) is welcome. I just don''t want to come off greedy and cause them to rescind their offer.

I''m in the HR chair too. One thing in your note above jumped out at me, and I wouldn''t suggest it:

Asking for a higher salary to compensate for your husband''s possible unemployment wouldn''t wash with me.

Negotiate for the salary based on what the job is worth. Not on the fact that you are presently a 2 income family, and may (even temporarily) become a 1 income family until he finds work.

Come in all of the stats you can, come armed, prepared, and with reasonable backup data for your argument. THAT I would listen to. Gladly.

LS

 

[Clairitek]

Date: 3/10/2010 12:18:56 PM
Author: LostSapphire

Date: 3/10/2010 10:46:01 AM
Author:Clairitek
I''m fortunate enough to be negotiating a job offer right now for a really wonderful position. They made a great initial offer, but its still below the national average for salary this year for people in my position. The kicker is that I will be living in one of the most expensive places in the country to live- The SF Bay Area.

I am due to have a conversation with them in the next day or two about my thoughts on the offer. I want to ask for more money because based on what I''ve seen for cost of living expenses, theres no way my husband and I could maintain the same lifestyle we have currently out there on my salary alone. Sure, we could cut back (we don''t live extravagently now anyway) and theres a good chance he will find a job but I don''t want to assume he will find employment.

So how do I go about asking for more? Between the fact that they are offering me a below-average salary and the cost of living is so high there I feel like I have a good reason to ask for more. Its not greed or anything that is motivating me, its just wanting to make a sound financial choice for my family.

The other thing that is holding me back from taking this offer right now is the fact that half of our net worth is in our home. If we sell, we will lose it all- roughly equal to 1/3 of a year of salary for me. I don''t expect them to pay for a choice we made before the offer came through, but if I made enough that I know we could have a reasonable lifestyle AND save money for the future on my salary alone, it would be much easier to eat the cost of buying the house.

Any advice from anyone who has been through this process (on either end of it) is welcome. I just don''t want to come off greedy and cause them to rescind their offer.

I''m in the HR chair too. One thing in your note above jumped out at me, and I wouldn''t suggest it:

Asking for a higher salary to compensate for your husband''s possible unemployment wouldn''t wash with me.

Negotiate for the salary based on what the job is worth. Not on the fact that you are presently a 2 income family, and may (even temporarily) become a 1 income family until he finds work.

Come in all of the stats you can, come armed, prepared, and with reasonable backup data for your argument. THAT I would listen to. Gladly.

LS

Thanks for the input LS! I was hoping you would pipe up.

To give you more information- my graduate student salary + his current salary is only a smidge higher than what this company has offered me and we live in a fairly cheap area.

I do see what you mean though, about negotiating based on what I''m worth, not on outside factors. I don''t plan on bringing up my husbands situation. I don''t want him to enter into this equation at all. I suppose I was just providing some background information.

Do you have any suggestions besides salary.com where I could find information for average salary of someone in my position in the Bay Area? I haven''t had much luck.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 3/10/2010 12:29:34 PM
Author: Clairitek

Date: 3/10/2010 12:18:56 PM
Author: LostSapphire

Date: 3/10/2010 10:46:01 AM
Author:Clairitek
I'm fortunate enough to be negotiating a job offer right now for a really wonderful position. They made a great initial offer, but its still below the national average for salary this year for people in my position. The kicker is that I will be living in one of the most expensive places in the country to live- The SF Bay Area.

I am due to have a conversation with them in the next day or two about my thoughts on the offer. I want to ask for more money because based on what I've seen for cost of living expenses, theres no way my husband and I could maintain the same lifestyle we have currently out there on my salary alone. Sure, we could cut back (we don't live extravagently now anyway) and theres a good chance he will find a job but I don't want to assume he will find employment.

So how do I go about asking for more? Between the fact that they are offering me a below-average salary and the cost of living is so high there I feel like I have a good reason to ask for more. Its not greed or anything that is motivating me, its just wanting to make a sound financial choice for my family.

The other thing that is holding me back from taking this offer right now is the fact that half of our net worth is in our home. If we sell, we will lose it all- roughly equal to 1/3 of a year of salary for me. I don't expect them to pay for a choice we made before the offer came through, but if I made enough that I know we could have a reasonable lifestyle AND save money for the future on my salary alone, it would be much easier to eat the cost of buying the house.

Any advice from anyone who has been through this process (on either end of it) is welcome. I just don't want to come off greedy and cause them to rescind their offer.

I'm in the HR chair too. One thing in your note above jumped out at me, and I wouldn't suggest it:

Asking for a higher salary to compensate for your husband's possible unemployment wouldn't wash with me.

Negotiate for the salary based on what the job is worth. Not on the fact that you are presently a 2 income family, and may (even temporarily) become a 1 income family until he finds work.

Come in all of the stats you can, come armed, prepared, and with reasonable backup data for your argument. THAT I would listen to. Gladly.

LS

Thanks for the input LS! I was hoping you would pipe up.

To give you more information- my graduate student salary + his current salary is only a smidge higher than what this company has offered me and we live in a fairly cheap area.

I do see what you mean though, about negotiating based on what I'm worth, not on outside factors. I don't plan on bringing up my husbands situation. I don't want him to enter into this equation at all. I suppose I was just providing some background information.

Do you have any suggestions besides salary.com where I could find information for average salary of someone in my position in the Bay Area? I haven't had much luck.

I have a bit of an aversion to salary.com and similar websites, because there are so many variables when it comes to salary. It is very easy for an employer to skew local averages, especially in smaller regions.

Can you get information in your field as to who pays what (approximately) for your geographical area? If you at least go into the meeting with your own research (versus some national website) that would carry far more weight, with me anyways. And often, employers KNOW what the regional averages are, and THAT is what they base their job offers on. You can sometimes get this information from employment agencies, or, even search out job ads, which will give you a lot of information.

So many people looking for work think that salary websites are the be all and end all....I find them quite off-putting because they're not really reliable.

For example, I know to the penny, averages in my city, which is on the small side, a catchment area of say, 700,000 people. If I put in my own figures for our firm, then run the reports, I can never come up with numbers close to what the salary websites come up with. They are either wildly low, or, crazy high.

I meet on a monthly basis with managers of like-sized law firms. We all know what each other pays. Some, pay more in the bi-weekly paycheque, but their benefits package covers less. Or, we may pay slightly less but have a fabulous benefit and perks package.

So, if I were sitting opposite you in the next meeting, I would be very receptive just knowing that you were able to research your local area using job ads, networking, employment agencies, etc. As opposed to printing off a report from a website.

Also, have a list of other items you want to factor in: moving expenses, etc etc. Often, you may not get exactly the $$ you want, but if you negotiate an extra week's salary, the firm may have an option where unused salary is paid out at year end....so it's still $$ but not calcualted into your yearly salary, KWIM?

Try and include 'non monetary' (ie: things not in the salary amount) things as well. ie: paid parking, extra time off, educational reimbursement, gym memberships, blackberry/cell phone perk, laptops, etc. This gives the employer the opportunity to give you soemthing, but again, doesn't deviate from their salary grid.

Good Luck!

LS

ETA: oh, and another thing. Have a ready comparison of rental/purchase prices for housing in your current area, versus the new. THAT shows you've done your homework, and may nudge them up a bit. But have facts, not just a vague "it's more expensive to live here" kind of statement.

sorry to blather.

 

[Clairitek]

Date: 3/10/2010 2:32:15 PM
Author: LostSapphire
I have a bit of an aversion to salary.com and similar websites, because there are so many variables when it comes to salary. It is very easy for an employer to skew local averages, especially in smaller regions.

Can you get information in your field as to who pays what (approximately) for your geographical area? If you at least go into the meeting with your own research (versus some national website) that would carry far more weight, with me anyways. And often, employers KNOW what the regional averages are, and THAT is what they base their job offers on. You can sometimes get this information from employment agencies, or, even search out job ads, which will give you a lot of information.

So many people looking for work think that salary websites are the be all and end all....I find them quite off-putting because they''re not really reliable.

For example, I know to the penny, averages in my city, which is on the small side, a catchment area of say, 700,000 people. If I put in my own figures for our firm, then run the reports, I can never come up with numbers close to what the salary websites come up with. They are either wildly low, or, crazy high.

I meet on a monthly basis with managers of like-sized law firms. We all know what each other pays. Some, pay more in the bi-weekly paycheque, but their benefits package covers less. Or, we may pay slightly less but have a fabulous benefit and perks package.

So, if I were sitting opposite you in the next meeting, I would be very receptive just knowing that you were able to research your local area using job ads, networking, employment agencies, etc. As opposed to printing off a report from a website.

Also, have a list of other items you want to factor in: moving expenses, etc etc. Often, you may not get exactly the $$ you want, but if you negotiate an extra week''s salary, the firm may have an option where unused salary is paid out at year end....so it''s still $$ but not calcualted into your yearly salary, KWIM?

Try and include ''non monetary'' (ie: things not in the salary amount) things as well. ie: paid parking, extra time off, educational reimbursement, gym memberships, blackberry/cell phone perk, laptops, etc. This gives the employer the opportunity to give you soemthing, but again, doesn''t deviate from their salary grid.

Good Luck!

LS

ETA: oh, and another thing. Have a ready comparison of rental/purchase prices for housing in your current area, versus the new. THAT shows you''ve done your homework, and may nudge them up a bit. But have facts, not just a vague ''it''s more expensive to live here'' kind of statement.

sorry to blather.

I was wondering that sort of thing about salary.com and like sites (being able to easily skew information). I will hit up monster.com and other places to find a local job ad tonight to gather my information. I hadn''t thought of doing that, so thanks for the advice. I also just noticed that the national average number I was given was for only 4 salaries. Hardly national!

I have done rent research, and it is double what it is here, at least for comprable living quarters (actually, its double for a smaller place than we currently have, but we are willing to downsize... perhaps I need to research 3 BR places instead of 2 BR for direct comparison). Good idea to come armed with that information as well.

I was considering trying to add in some additional PTO since all of our family and friends will be on the opposite coast. I''d rather try to get more money first, since I know DH is primarily concerned about that aspect of our lives right now, but if they don''t come up to where I want entirely I feel comfortable asking for more PTO.

Thanks so much for the advice LS. You''re not blathering! Its all very very helpful and calming.

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 3/10/2010 4:54:32 PM
Author: Clairitek

I was wondering that sort of thing about salary.com and like sites (being able to easily skew information). I will hit up monster.com and other places to find a local job ad tonight to gather my information. I hadn''t thought of doing that, so thanks for the advice. I also just noticed that the national average number I was given was for only 4 salaries. Hardly national!

I have done rent research, and it is double what it is here, at least for comprable living quarters (actually, its double for a smaller place than we currently have, but we are willing to downsize... perhaps I need to research 3 BR places instead of 2 BR for direct comparison). Good idea to come armed with that information as well.

I was considering trying to add in some additional PTO since all of our family and friends will be on the opposite coast. I''d rather try to get more money first, since I know DH is primarily concerned about that aspect of our lives right now, but if they don''t come up to where I want entirely I feel comfortable asking for more PTO.

Thanks so much for the advice LS. You''re not blathering! Its all very very helpful and calming.

GOOD LUCK!!!!

LS

 

[LostSapphire]

One more thing I''d suggest when going in to negotiate:

1. Bring a big smile and a firm handshake.
2. Don''t apologize for asking for more.
3. Be very gracious and complimentary of their offer, and maybe re-open the discussion by saying, "I wonder if we can discuss changing up a few things, some things are more important to me than others". ie: so it doesn''t sound like you''re dissing every part of the offer.
4. Give them an opportunity to review your counter-offer and get back to you. Sometimes as a day or so passes by, the perfect candidate''s requests seem more and more reasonable, as concern grows for the employer that they''ll lose your interest.
5. And lastly, don''t finish off the interview by saying "if you can''t go higher on any of these things, I''m good with the offer as it is". You will have just shot yourself in the foot.

And once again, Good Luck!

LS

 

[Clairitek]

Date: 3/10/2010 7:09:39 PM
Author: LostSapphire
One more thing I''d suggest when going in to negotiate:

1. Bring a big smile and a firm handshake.
2. Don''t apologize for asking for more.
3. Be very gracious and complimentary of their offer, and maybe re-open the discussion by saying, ''I wonder if we can discuss changing up a few things, some things are more important to me than others''. ie: so it doesn''t sound like you''re dissing every part of the offer.
4. Give them an opportunity to review your counter-offer and get back to you. Sometimes as a day or so passes by, the perfect candidate''s requests seem more and more reasonable, as concern grows for the employer that they''ll lose your interest.
5. And lastly, don''t finish off the interview by saying ''if you can''t go higher on any of these things, I''m good with the offer as it is''. You will have just shot yourself in the foot.

And once again, Good Luck!

LS

This discussion will take place over the phone, but I will bring a polite, professional tone (but not frosty) to the conversation.

Thanks again for your advice! I''m talking to him this afternoon so I''ll let you know how it goes. I''m going to do my best to remain confident. I really hate stuff like this but its necessary in order for me to consider taking this job opportunity.

 

[PumpkinPie]

Lost Sapphire - you have such good advice and info - I`m sure I will be asking a similar question within a year or two - just wanted to point out how great you are for helping out!

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 3/11/2010 11:26:01 AM
Author: Maevie
Lost Sapphire - you have such good advice and info - I`m sure I will be asking a similar question within a year or two - just wanted to point out how great you are for helping out!

Thank you Maevie. How kind of you to say!

LS

 

[LostSapphire]

Date: 3/11/2010 10:54:57 AM
Author: Clairitek

This discussion will take place over the phone, but I will bring a polite, professional tone (but not frosty) to the conversation.

Thanks again for your advice! I''m talking to him this afternoon so I''ll let you know how it goes. I''m going to do my best to remain confident. I really hate stuff like this but its necessary in order for me to consider taking this job opportunity.

Well, my friend, it''s now 3:18 my time...hope you''ve had the conversation and it went well. (of course it did!).

LS

 

[Anya]

I''m new to PS but wanted to chime in. Thanks for posting on this issue, as I am in the same boat. Several months ago I also
moved to the SF Bay area and am job searching. It is hard to negotiate salary when the cost of living that you are used to
no longer applies. So, this thread is helpful to me, too! Good luck with your negotiations!

 

[Clairitek]

Date: 3/11/2010 3:20:45 PM
Author: LostSapphire

Date: 3/11/2010 10:54:57 AM
Author: Clairitek

This discussion will take place over the phone, but I will bring a polite, professional tone (but not frosty) to the conversation.

Thanks again for your advice! I''m talking to him this afternoon so I''ll let you know how it goes. I''m going to do my best to remain confident. I really hate stuff like this but its necessary in order for me to consider taking this job opportunity.

Well, my friend, it''s now 3:18 my time...hope you''ve had the conversation and it went well. (of course it did!).

LS

Sorry I didn''t update yesterday.

I spoke with them at about 2. They won''t budget in my salary because they claim that what they are offering is right in line with what other people in my position (degree level, experience) are getting paid at their company.

Not my fault those people didn''t negotiate a higher salary! They did come up in other compensation areas, but still not much. We''re going to sleep on it for the weekend and see how we feel about it but I think I will accept the offer.