Memorial Diamonds out of Cremains - anyone do this? Need Info.

[arjunajane]

On a different tip, and one that Mr James also touched on in his article - insuring these "diamonds" poses an absolute nightmare, that as someone that works in the insurance industry, it boggles the mind!

Thankfully, there is no such thing as LifeGem in Australia yet and I hope there never will be.
I can not imagine any Insurance company taking on such a great risk to insure somebody's "Dear old dad" - can you imagine, how do you replace someone's mother or grandfather with 'Like Kind and Quality"?!
Its just absurd.
Infact, I would go as far as to venture that a whole new set of insurance underwriting guidelines would need to written I imagine just to cover this product..I know the Co I work for would not.
I wonder if Lifegem tells their potential customers this, as they walk around with 20k gems..?

The issue of loss of these gems was glossed over by Rusty earlier, but personally I feel bad for the numerous people out there wearing these gems who simply would be not covered for loss or theft..

 

[Sharon101]

Date: 6/6/2008 1:35:10 AM
Author: arjunajane
On a different tip, and one that Mr James also touched on in his article - insuring these ''diamonds'' poses an absolute nightmare, that as someone that works in the insurance industry, it boggles the mind!

Thankfully, there is no such thing as LifeGem in Australia yet and I hope there never will be.
I can not imagine any Insurance company taking on such a great risk to insure somebody''s ''Dear old dad'' - can you imagine, how do you replace someone''s mother or grandfather with ''Like Kind and Quality''?!
Its just absurd.
Infact, I would go as far as to venture that a whole new set of insurance underwriting guidelines would need to written I imagine just to cover this product..I know the Co I work for would not.
I wonder if Lifegem tells their potential customers this, as they walk around with 20k gems..?

The issue of loss of these gems was glossed over by Rusty earlier, but personally I feel bad for the numerous people out there wearing these gems who simply would be not covered for loss or theft..

But, you are forgetting the backups that they ummm `make` for you. You can have as many `Dear old dads` as you could ever want or need. They probably just put more diamonds in the water when they shake it up. So I dont know what all the fuss is about re. loosing the precious diamond with your loved ones in it. There are probably hundreds more in the safe!!!!!

 

[arjunajane]

lol Sharon, yeah I hear ya!

Now, I love a good healthy dose of sarcasm. But in all seriosuness I would really really like to see the important questions posed in this thread answered, for which reason I will hold my tongue so as not to offend Mr. VandenBiesen.

Rusty, I will put it to you again that there are both consumers and professionals here who are all very interested in learning more about the processes that your company claims to carry out.
Do you care to explain the incongruencies highlighted by Mr James articles? It is my thoughts that, in the absence of information to the contrary, people are most likely going to suppose the worst.

When ever consumers do a search on the internet about diamonds, they are bound to find PS. And if they are researching LifeGem, they will most likely come across this thread.
As the head of a company, I would love such an oppurtunity as this to make my business publicly accountable and (at least a little) more transparent- and as Neil mentioned before, Andrey has extended a rare chance for LifeGem to do this.
Rusty, I hope you intend to respond with a little more than deflection.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Yes please - Rusty how about some photo''s and other supporting material. Coming here is a welcome move, but until you offer some real evidence to the claim I made on the first page, and other challenges, you are nothing more than another person making claims about diamonds.
And we have seen enough such claims turn out to be false that we are a rather cynical bunch.

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Date: 6/6/2008 1:21:27 AM
Author: arjunajane
Lisa, i hope you have received some of the answers you sought - but honey, if I were you, I''d stay well away!

Hi Aj,

Thank you for really articulating the way PS works (even w/ a little humor/sarcasm) and keeping him on point!

Don''t worry about me. That''s why I tempted fate and posted my curiosities here.

There was no way I ever thought it would mushroom like this. I am very pleased however as it will
potentially help others out there in their plight. As u mentioned this thread WILL pop up.

I guess being a social worker has me being an advocate even for a dead dad''s cremains (gosh that sounded weird).

My mission obviously extends not just to the living I should say.

To all the beloved experts here thank you for the honesty and soul.

It is heartening to know (nod to Andrey) that a forum like this (that focuses on real stones) is willing to stretch
its boundaries to include and ultimately help expose the fraudulent.

Neil, Todd, Wink, Garry and last but not least Mr. James - my hearty thanks.

Where is Sir John, Diagem, Strmrdr, Dave Atlas? Anyone else I forgot sorry.

(still curious to see where this is going...I suspect they are rallying the troops right now - or have completely given up!!!)

Lisa

 

[denverappraiser]

Regrouping would be a good plan. Surrender would not. Already this thread ranks #8 on a Google search for the term ‘memorial diamonds’ and #12 on the term 'LifeGems'. There’s a pretty good chance that it will end up 2nd only to Lifegem’s own home site by next week.

I realize that it takes time and effort to write considered responses to difficult questions and I certainly would encourage them to do it carefully so that the information presented is both accurate and complete although if this is the case, it would probably a good idea to say something to this effect simply to avoid speculation about the meaning of the silence. One thing about this form of communication, it moves very quickly. Much of the criticism seems to revolve around what is being perceived as deliberate obfuscation and misdirection on the part of LifeGems and some fairly serious accusations have been made. This is a marvelous opportunity to set the record straight. Andrey has provided a free and nearly unlimited bully pulpit for LifeGems to make their case, all that is remains is for them to do it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/6/2008 11:57:52 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Regrouping would be a good plan. Surrender would not. Already this thread ranks #8 on a Google search for the term ‘memorial diamonds’ and there’s a pretty good chance that it will end up 2nd only to Lifegem’s own home site by next week.

I realize that it takes time and effort to write considered responses to difficult questions and I certainly would encourage them to do it carefully so that the information presented is both accurate and complete although if this is the case, it would probably a good idea to say something to this effect simply to avoid speculation about the meaning of the silence. One thing about this form of communication, it moves very quickly. Much of the criticism seems to revolve around what is being perceived as deliberate obfuscation and misdirection on the part of LifeGems and some fairly serious accusations have been made. This is a marvelous opportunity to set the record straight. Andrey has provided a free and nearly unlimited bully pulpit for LifeGems to make their case, all that is remains is for them to do it.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

Agreed. The sentimentalist in me would love for this to be true and possible for those who wish something along these lines.

The diamontaire in me does not believe it is currently happening. Would love to be PROVEN wrong.

Wink

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

I did not read this thread before, since the subject did not really seem interesting at first, and especially since it covered quickly two pages, so I thought that I had nothing to add.

I do however have a few extra questions for the people of Lifegem:

After having produced the rough synthetic diamond, there is logically the process of cutting it. When bruting the stone, is the dust collected or does it end up on the floor and swept away?

When cutting the stone, part of the diamond particles end up in the air. Is the cutter aware of the origin of the diamond and is he cool with breathing in these particles?

Also, in the process of cutting, some of the diamond particles that are cut off will end up in the wheel, where these particles will actually serve as the cutter of the rest of the diamond. Is this wheel reconditioned after every stone and re-set with other natural or synthetic diamond powder, or are part of the remains of my dad in that wheel used to cut someone else''s mom?

Just curious,

 

[[email protected]]

Our reply was to inform him of the truth. It was from our patent attorney refuting his claims one by one in detail and we invite him to share them. We informed him officially so that he can not claim ignorance or a lack of knowledge when making false claims over the internet that could damage our business.

 

[purrfectpear]

Are these simple questions to difficult for the FOUNDER of the company to address, or do we need to T-Y-P-E S-L-O-W-L-Y

Stick a fork in him, this turkey is done.

 

[Linda W]

This is what I would also like to know Rusty. Why won''t you answer any questions?????????????



Linda

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/6/2008 4:20:28 PM
Author: rusty
Our reply was to inform him of the truth. It was from our patent attorney refuting his claims one by one in detail and we invite him to share them. We informed him officially so that he can not claim ignorance or a lack of knowledge when making false claims over the internet that could damage our business.

Rusty,

Were you planning on giving *US* some answers? I’ve politely answered you, politely provided you some real softball questions and, at your request, Andrey has given you whatever bandwith you need to explain yourself, your products and your services. You have the opportunity to prepare your thoughts in advance and Mr. James doesn’t even have the opportunity to interrupt while you explain it.

How could we be more accommodating? It is, of course, your option to leave Mr. James with the last word on this topic but it’s an odd choice given the size and influence of the audience here. I’ve given you the benefit of every doubt but, I must say, my confidence in your sincerity is slipping.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Jewelry Appraisals in Denver

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/6/2008 3:53:23 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
I did not read this thread before, since the subject did not really seem interesting at first, and especially since it covered quickly two pages, so I thought that I had nothing to add.

I do however have a few extra questions for the people of Lifegem:

After having produced the rough synthetic diamond, there is logically the process of cutting it. When bruting the stone, is the dust collected or does it end up on the floor and swept away?

When cutting the stone, part of the diamond particles end up in the air. Is the cutter aware of the origin of the diamond and is he cool with breathing in these particles?

Also, in the process of cutting, some of the diamond particles that are cut off will end up in the wheel, where these particles will actually serve as the cutter of the rest of the diamond. Is this wheel reconditioned after every stone and re-set with other natural or synthetic diamond powder, or are part of the remains of my dad in that wheel used to cut someone else''s mom?

Just curious,

LOL! Trust a diamond cutter to have some questions that most of us never even considered considering!

Wow!

Wink

 

[IloveAsschers13]

I have been keeping up with this thread since it was first posted, and I was excited to see when Rusty finally posted. I was also glad that he was granted permission to discuss something not normally allowed. But now it seems as though he is picking and choosing what he wants to answer (which is not much at all) because he seems a loss for words. If you are going to post Rusty, especially with permission from PS, you should have the decency to answer questions users have been asking. A lot of these questions seem technical enough for anyone interested in buying a diamond made from their loved ones should want answered. It seems also that if you were to ask any natural diamond cutter he/she would be able to answer these questions with ease.

Please educate us on PS with what we have been asking because not answering these questions is only aiding in your company''s negative image.

Thanks!

P.S. No offense here, I just wanted to get my point across. I don''t want to step on anyone''s toes here on Pricescope.

 

[John P]

Date: 6/6/2008 11:08:10 AM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1

Where is Sir John, Diagem, Strmrdr, Dave Atlas? Anyone else I forgot sorry.

Hello m'lady Lisa,

I have been following. Any questions/comments I have are represented already.

I would like to note that this forum can be a hard place for anyone new & unaccustomed to the ebb and flow. I would say to Mr. VandenBiesen that the many people here can be just as accepting and enthusiastic as they can be critical: Transparency and disclosure fuel approval on PS. Opacity fuels the opposite. The beauty of Web2.0 is that people can pose questions, ask for clarity, pose reasonable challenges and issue feedback. If your data is strong and the challenges are weak the people with expertise will back you up. If not the opposite will happen.

I applaud the PS Admin for giving Mr. VandenBiesen permission to respond to any questions when he requested it.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 6/6/2008 11:08:10 AM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1

Where is Sir John, Diagem, Strmrdr, Dave Atlas? Anyone else I forgot sorry.

Lisa

I can just barely think about this without getting ill and want to say bad words about it in the best of times.
On top of that if it is fake that is even worse...
I think the whole idea is sick and disgusting.
Paul's questions about cutting them about made me puke just thinking about it.
eeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Even if it can be done I find the thought of making a diamond out of a loved one the most disgusting disrespectful thing I have ever heard of.

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/6/2008 7:07:11 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 6/6/2008 11:08:10 AM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1

Where is Sir John, Diagem, Strmrdr, Dave Atlas? Anyone else I forgot sorry.

Lisa

I can just barely think about this without getting ill and want to say bad words about it in the best of times.
On top of that if it is fake that is even worse...
I think the whole idea is sick and disgusting.
Paul''s questions about cutting them about made me puke just thinking about it.
eeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

Even if it can be done I find the thought of making a diamond out of a loved one the most disgusting disrespectful thing I have ever heard of.

LOL! Your reply has me laughing pretty hard, but in empathy. As much as I would love this to be possible for those people who want it, I really pretty much share your opinion, and the thought of being one of those poor diamond cutters breathing the dust of someone''s loved one does seem disgusting...

Personally I would never want it, but recognise that some would. Shame it appears to be a total scam.

Wink

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Hey all, I just received their marketing brochure and DVD.

There are pics of the "Purification," "Purified Carbon," LifeGem Diamond Lab," "Diamond Creation Press," "Rough Diamond," and "Finished Diamond."

Give me a minute, feeding Olivia, right now and I''ll post the pics.

(terms & conditions included in brochure too)

 

[YourGemologist]

Mr. VandenBiesen,

You have been given an exceptionally rare opportunity to come to the most prestigious forum on the internet and tell the story of LifeGem to a wonderful group of industry professionals and consumers. But instead of answering the questions presented to you, you choose to divert the attention to a letter that your attorney wrote to me over a month ago.

I want to be crystal clear with you as to why I am asking these questions.

Beyond my gemological credentials, I am licensed by the Texas Department of Insurance as a Property and Casualty Insurance Adjuster (TDI#1300433). I am also licensed as a Continuing Education Provider (TDI#3391) to write training courses for insurance agents and adjusters. By the Midwest Reciprocity Agreement, my TDI educational credentials are accepted by the Illinois Department of Insurance.

It is my belief that your company’s failure to provide information to support your advertising claims could portend as evidence of insurance fraud, based on special insurance policies being issued based on your unsubstantiated claims.

I am making no accusations, but I am saying that there is reasonable doubt in my office regarding your claims…..that you just don’t seem willing or able to prove.

Now, with all of that said, can we get answers to our questions?

#1. Where are the diamond presses you claim to own and operate?

#2. Out of an 8 ounce cup of traditional cremation ashes, how much actual graphite do you produce?

#3. Of 100% of the carbon contained in your claimed product, what is the average percentage of carbon from a loved one''s ashes?

#4. How can you prove to consumers that you actually use the ashes of their loved one’s in your claimed synthetic diamonds?

If you are not willing to provide the answers to the good people here on Pricescope.com, perhaps you will be willing to answer the questions from the Illinois Department of Insurance, and/or the Illinois Attorney Generals office. That choice is now up to you as I will not belabor this point any longer, nor do I wish to take advantage of the hospitality being afforded to us by Pricescope.

With respects and appreciation to all of the wonderful folks here on Pricescope. I realize that this topic is outside the accepted parameter of your usual subject matter. But I personally and professionally find the actions of LifeGem to be particularly distasteful as it plays on the emotions of consumers at the most difficult time of life, the loss of a loved one. And yet, LifeGem has been unable and unwilling to answer even the most basic questions about their operations. And I will not stop until those answers are provided.

I wish to express my sincere appreciation to Pricescope for allowing this discussion. And with respects to everyone on Pricescope.

Robert James FGA, GG
International School of Gemology

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 6/5/2008 12:12:47 PM
Author: rusty
Dear Neil,

I appreciate your straight forward response. I appreciate your candor and I now have a different opinion of your intentions.

I will discuss your suggestions with my partners. It is hard to share all of the details with a limited marketing budget.

It seems that Lisa thought I was replying to her and I think that I might have hurt her feelings. We are knew to this blog type of communiction and should be more careful in our efforts to respond.

Thank you for a fair and balanced response to my questions.

Dear Rusty, there are many different personalities here, and many different levels of qualifications (not only in the trinket trade - many diamond junkies support their addiction with serious professional careers).
You can read the number of posts beside each party''s title.

This forum is also widely read by many who do not post. We call them "Lurkers" and many hold high offices in the press and gem industry.

I counsel you to think very carefully about continuing your program of obfscuration. Many serious gemologists doubt the fact that you really convert deceased ashes to diamonds. Those of us who know the process are aware that it is hit and miss - it is not easy to say "in this run we will make a rough for a .45ct vivid yellow with a greenish tint". The outcome may be 5 roughs under 0.10ct that make 7 or 8 0.01ct diamonds.

For the third and last time: please put up, or we will institute a full and concerted effort to expose any deficiencies that may exist between your claims and reality.

Sincerely
Garry Holloway FGAA, Dip Diamond Technology JAA regd Valuer 161

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

I should have added:

Writting a journal article here or in the Gems & Gemology or other journals would be considered as a normal industry response.

 

[megus]

Rusty,

I might be wrong here, but it appears as if you are using HTHP presses to grow your diamonds in. And it would appear that you place the remains in a mix with other carbon and then grow a diamond. Is that correct?

I wonder, if you place these remains in with your other carbon, is not the actual remains removed in the "Purification" process?

And what do you do with this "Carbon" to change it in the "graphitizing" process?

Can you explain this to some of us who are challenged when it comes to understanding such things? I would really like to know.

MEgus

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 6/6/2008 4:20:28 PM
Author: rusty
Our reply was to inform him of the truth. It was from our patent attorney refuting his claims one by one in detail and we invite him to share them. We informed him officially so that he can not claim ignorance or a lack of knowledge when making false claims over the internet that could damage our business.

Why can''t you share them?

It is your lawyers after all, not his..and also we are asking you the questions, not him.
Personally, in the light of this thread, my crystal ball doesn''t show a bright future for LifeGem..

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 6/7/2008 11:42:11 AM
Author: megus
Rusty,

I might be wrong here, but it appears as if you are using HTHP presses to grow your diamonds in. And it would appear that you place the remains in a mix with other carbon and then grow a diamond. Is that correct?

I wonder, if you place these remains in with your other carbon, is not the actual remains removed in the ''Purification'' process?

And what do you do with this ''Carbon'' to change it in the ''graphitizing'' process?

Can you explain this to some of us who are challenged when it comes to understanding such things? I would really like to know.

MEgus

Welcome to Pricescope Megus!

Megus is a great guy and very knowledgeable about HTPT treatment of diamonds, as one of the treaters is located in Salt Lake City and is friends with Megus. (Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.) He is also a fellow member of Polygon and obviously has come to visit since I told my fellow Polygonners about this thread and envited them to come see the reception that awaits those who do not want to play nice.

From their first post complaining that they are not allowed to talk about their product, until now long after they were given full permission and a never seen before suspension of the rules to fully explain their product the Life Gem folks have not been very forthcoming. Until (if) they are, I suspect that they will not be winning any friends here or at Polygon.

Wink

P.S. For those who do not know, Polygon is a trade only forum for members of the jewelry trade.

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Date: 6/6/2008 9:39:30 PM
Author: YourGemologist

Mr. VandenBiesen,

You have been given an exceptionally rare opportunity to come to the most prestigious forum on the internet and tell the story of LifeGem to a wonderful group of industry professionals and consumers. But instead of answering the questions presented to you, you choose to divert the attention to a letter that your attorney wrote to me over a month ago.

I want to be crystal clear with you as to why I am asking these questions.

Beyond my gemological credentials, I am licensed by the Texas Department of Insurance as a Property and Casualty Insurance Adjuster (TDI#1300433). I am also licensed as a Continuing Education Provider (TDI#3391) to write training courses for insurance agents and adjusters. By the Midwest Reciprocity Agreement, my TDI educational credentials are accepted by the Illinois Department of Insurance.

It is my belief that your company’s failure to provide information to support your advertising claims could portend as evidence of insurance fraud, based on special insurance policies being issued based on your unsubstantiated claims.

I am making no accusations, but I am saying that there is reasonable doubt in my office regarding your claims…..that you just don’t seem willing or able to prove.

Now, with all of that said, can we get answers to our questions?

#1. Where are the diamond presses you claim to own and operate?

#2. Out of an 8 ounce cup of traditional cremation ashes, how much actual graphite do you produce?

#3. Of 100% of the carbon contained in your claimed product, what is the average percentage of carbon from a loved one''s ashes?

#4. How can you prove to consumers that you actually use the ashes of their loved one’s in your claimed synthetic diamonds?

If you are not willing to provide the answers to the good people here on Pricescope.com, perhaps you will be willing to answer the questions from the Illinois Department of Insurance, and/or the Illinois Attorney Generals office. That choice is now up to you as I will not belabor this point any longer, nor do I wish to take advantage of the hospitality being afforded to us by Pricescope.

With respects and appreciation to all of the wonderful folks here on Pricescope. I realize that this topic is outside the accepted parameter of your usual subject matter. But I personally and professionally find the actions of LifeGem to be particularly distasteful as it plays on the emotions of consumers at the most difficult time of life, the loss of a loved one. And yet, LifeGem has been unable and unwilling to answer even the most basic questions about their operations. And I will not stop until those answers are provided.

I wish to express my sincere appreciation to Pricescope for allowing this discussion. And with respects to everyone on Pricescope.

Robert James FGA, GG
International School of Gemology

bump

 

[megus]

Well, it could be because it''s a weekend and Rusty is out of the office until Monday.

However, the silence is deafening.

Let''s hope he comes back and clears a few things up.

MEgus

 

[lisa1.01fvs1]

Hi Megus,

I think he''s in and reading away!

Got an email at 5:32 AM today.


"Hi Lisa,
Not much of a spirit of education. Thanks for the effort though. "



I guess he''s giving up after all.

 

[purrfectpear]

Oh we got quite an education all right. Some of us saw that coming like a snake oil salesman in a covered wagon

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 6/8/2008 7:15:46 PM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1
Hi Megus,

I think he's in and reading away!

Got an email at 5:32 AM today.

'Hi Lisa,
Not much of a spirit of education. Thanks for the effort though. '

I guess he's giving up after all.

I certainly agree, he doesn’t seem to have much of a spirit of education but I’ve learned quite a bit about LifeGems from this thread despite his best efforts to prevent it.

Just last week I said:

Date: 6/1/2008 11:24:02 AM
Author: denverappraiser
I see no evidence that they are doing what they claim and they have been less than forthcoming with any defense despite numerous and credible challenges.

To say that they are less than forthcoming with a defense despite credible challenges turns out to have been generous. They are deliberately obstructive, and this obstruction is, by itself, reason to believe that they are NOT doing as they claim.

Date: 6/6/2008 4:20:28 PM
Author: rusty
Our reply was to inform him of the truth. It was from our patent attorney refuting his claims one by one in detail and we invite him to share them. We informed him officially so that he can not claim ignorance or a lack of knowledge when making false claims over the internet that could damage our business.

Apparently Rusty thinks something said here is untrue and is damaging to his business but his behavior clearly indicates otherwise. Refusing even to indicate what he feels is inaccurate and refusal to produce information that he claims to have already publicly released clearly indicates that either he believes the ‘damage’ to be nominal and therefore not worth his time or that the information presented is correct and that he is therefore unable to refute it. Even if shown to be incorrect, any ‘damages’ may become moot because he had the opportunity to mitigate those damages and has refused to do so when given the opportunity. Instead of talking about damages, this could have been one of the most powerful advertisements they've ever had. It’s not Mr. James’s words that are doing harm, it’s Mr. VandenBiesen’s and LifeGem's slience.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 6/8/2008 7:15:46 PM
Author: lisa1.01fvs1

Hi Megus,

I think he''s in and reading away!

Got an email at 5:32 AM today.


''Hi Lisa,

Not much of a spirit of education. Thanks for the effort though. ''



I guess he''s giving up after all.

Huh? Is he serious?

Sheesh...I really hope this Co gets whats coming to them.
Tell me I''m jumping to conclusions, but all the info in this thread leads to only one conclusion imo- LifeGem are ripping off poor mourning relatives in their time of need - with an inferior, over priced and probably completely false product.

wrong, wrong, mad, mad