Fur coats...

[Odilia]

Date: 12/13/2007 10:05:44 PM
Author: somethingshiny
Ninama~

I got to thinking about one of my grandma's furs. She kept it in a walk-in freezer. (at their house, many moons ago) try walking in on that

Somehow that last comment made me think of a joke someone sent in email one time:

Fowl Language

A young man named John received a parrot as a gift. The parrot had a bad attitude and an even worse vocabulary. Every word out of this bird's mouth was rude, obnoxious and laced with profanity. John tried and tried to change the bird's attitude by constantly saying polite words, playing soft music, and anything he could think of to set a good example. Nothing worked.

Finally, John got fed up and he yelled at the parrot. And, the bird yelled back. John shook the parrot, and the bird got angrier and ruder. Finally, in a moment of desperation, John put the bird in the refrigerator freezer. For a few minutes, John heard the bird squawk and kick and scream...then suddenly there was quiet. Not a peep for over a minute.

Fearing that he'd hurt the bird, John quickly opened the door to the freezer. The parrot calmly stepped out onto John's out-stretched arm and said, "I believe I may have offended you with my rude language and actions. I am truly sorry, and I will do everything to correct my poor behavior."

John was astonished at the bird's change of attitude. As he was about to ask the parrot what had made such a dramatic change in his behavior, the bird continued, "May I ask what the chicken did?"

[ETA: I too was amazed that your grandma had a walk-in freezer at home! ]

 

[Ninama]

Date: 12/13/2007 10:05:44 PM
Author: somethingshiny
Ninama~


By reading your last several posts, I think you''ve made your decision. If you are defending a choice you haven''t even made this fiercely, I don''t think anyone who shouts ''fur is murder'' is going to stand a chance!



Like I said before, I like the new one much better than the old one. I got to thinking about one of my grandma''s furs. She kept it in a walk-in freezer. (at their house, many moons ago) try walking in on that

Your Nana had a walk-in freezer - at home? That''s HOT.

 

[DiamanteBlu]

Date: 12/13/2007 10:11:50 PM
Author: old-fashioned girl

Date: 12/13/2007 10:05:44 PM

Author: somethingshiny

Ninama~


I got to thinking about one of my grandma''s furs. She kept it in a walk-in freezer. (at their house, many moons ago) try walking in on that

Somehow that last comment made me think of a joke someone sent in email one time:

Fowl Language

A young man named John received a parrot as a gift. The parrot had a bad attitude and an even worse vocabulary. Every word out of this bird''s mouth was rude, obnoxious and laced with profanity. John tried and tried to change the bird''s attitude by constantly saying polite words, playing soft music, and anything he could think of to set a good example. Nothing worked.


Finally, John got fed up and he yelled at the parrot. And, the bird yelled back. John shook the parrot, and the bird got angrier and ruder. Finally, in a moment of desperation, John put the bird in the refrigerator freezer. For a few minutes, John heard the bird squawk and kick and scream...then suddenly there was quiet. Not a peep for over a minute.


Fearing that he''d hurt the bird, John quickly opened the door to the freezer. The parrot calmly stepped out onto John''s out-stretched arm and said, ''I believe I may have offended you with my rude language and actions. I am truly sorry, and I will do everything to correct my poor behavior.''


John was astonished at the bird''s change of attitude. As he was about to ask the parrot what had made such a dramatic change in his behavior, the bird continued, ''May I ask what the chicken did?''

ROTFL!!!!!!

 

[somethingshiny]

Date: 12/13/2007 10:13:43 PM
Author: Ninama

Your Nana had a walk-in freezer - at home? That's HOT.

Tee hee hee! My grandparents live in the house that my great-grandpa built when he moved to the US. He had the first-in-the-area walk-in freezer installed for his wife. They bought furs for each of their daughters and daughters-in-law. (that's when farmers made money..) All of the coats were stored there. When I was little, my grandparents had already bought the house, and there were still furs in the freezer. It was soo weird. They had to remove it several years ago for freeon (sp?) reasons.


Blu~ that's funny!

 

[monarch64]

I''m going to keep my opinions on the use of fur out of my response. That said, I am not a fan of the spotted kitty coat...I like animal prints in small doses for home decor and some apparel, but imo the coat is a bit overboard. I think it would take a very striking woman to really carry off that look without looking downright crazy. It could be absolutely overwhelming if the wearer (I guess that would potentially be you, Ninama) didn''t have a very strong presence to begin with, knim?

 

[Diamond*Dana]

"For whatever reason, whenever I think fur, I think of those old shrug type of things, what did they call them, "stoles" or something like that. The kind with the head still attached. Talk about freaking out."

You mean this? Ah yes, we found this in my FIL's house after he moved to his new condo...not only is it sad, but it is very disgusting! They have CLAWS! Now anyone that knows me in real life is absolutely STUNNED that I even have these little guys living under my roof. The only reason that I do is because my mouthy 8 year old has let it be known that this is the only thing that I can use against him to get him to be more cooperative. As soon as I find something that is equally as effective, I am going to give them the proper burial that they deserve.

 

[littlelysser]

Date: 12/13/2007 8:13:26 PM
Author: Ninama

Date: 12/13/2007 3:27:00 PM

Author: littlelysser

I wear leather coats and shoes - don''t really have a problem with either. I don''t really equate wearing leather shoes or wearing a toned down fur coat with wearing a big old leopard fur coat.



And well, I must say, I''ve never seens someone wearing either leopard or lippi cat in real life, but I think it is kind of vomitious and over the top.



Something about it is so top of the food chain and totally uneccesary and well, you''d be wearing a LEOPARD or another wild cat. Something that is really beautiful and amazing in the wild...wearing it for your own selfish enjoyment. Yuck. Cause you clearly aren''t wearing it just for warmth (there are other, much less ''look at me'' types of fur) - you are doing it for people to look and getting that attention by wearing a dead leopard...yuck.



Wow. Didn''t know I felt so strongly about this...

So... by that standard, a sheep or cow is less worthy of living, because it''s less .... magnificent? Less good-looking? Less beautiful and amazing in the wild? As for much less ''look at me'' types of fur - do you think they''re sanctionable?


Is eating prime filet mignon not top of the food chain selfish enjoyment?

I guess I''m a bit perplexed by the point of your posting and asking for folks'' opinions on exotic fur. You said you wanted people''s perspectives, and then well, you kind of play devil''s advocate and jump on those that disagree with you. If you want to wear a coat made of bengal tiger cubs and pair it with elephant tusks as earrings, go ahead. I was just offering my opinion and you certainly don''t need to prove me wrong.

For whatever reason, I am not offended by less ostentatious or less exotic furs. My mom has a mink coat that she loves because it keeps her very warm and cozy. And honestly, I''ve never worn fur, so I can''t speak to whether it is warmer than the other alternatives. Generally, though, now that I really think about it, I guess I really do not like fur.

I think it may be because it feels so much like wearing an animal as a leopard skin trophy. And I guess what offends me is that this attention it coming at the cost of a life of a lovely, wild, beautiful animal. I suppose I would assume a lot of things about a person wearing a coat like that and I suppose that I don''t understand why anyone would want to wear something that looks like a leopard, as it would likely garner the same reactions.

Am I saying that leopards are better than sheep and cows and mink? I guess I am. Is that irrational? Maybe. Are you going to convince me that eating a filet mignon is the same as wearing leopard fur coat - nope. Isn''t going to happen.

It is totally a personal decision - and you seem to have made yours...so go with it.

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 12/13/2007 11:51:32 PM
Author: littlelysser

Date: 12/13/2007 8:13:26 PM

Author: Ninama

Date: 12/13/2007 3:27:00 PM


Author: littlelysser


I wear leather coats and shoes - don''t really have a problem with either. I don''t really equate wearing leather shoes or wearing a toned down fur coat with wearing a big old leopard fur coat.




And well, I must say, I''ve never seens someone wearing either leopard or lippi cat in real life, but I think it is kind of vomitious and over the top.




Something about it is so top of the food chain and totally uneccesary and well, you''d be wearing a LEOPARD or another wild cat. Something that is really beautiful and amazing in the wild...wearing it for your own selfish enjoyment. Yuck. Cause you clearly aren''t wearing it just for warmth (there are other, much less ''look at me'' types of fur) - you are doing it for people to look and getting that attention by wearing a dead leopard...yuck.




Wow. Didn''t know I felt so strongly about this...

So... by that standard, a sheep or cow is less worthy of living, because it''s less .... magnificent? Less good-looking? Less beautiful and amazing in the wild? As for much less ''look at me'' types of fur - do you think they''re sanctionable?



Is eating prime filet mignon not top of the food chain selfish enjoyment?

I guess I''m a bit perplexed by the point of your posting and asking for folks'' opinions on exotic fur. You said you wanted people''s perspectives, and then well, you kind of play devil''s advocate and jump on those that disagree with you. If you want to wear a coat made of bengal tiger cubs and pair it with elephant tusks as earrings, go ahead. I was just offering my opinion and you certainly don''t need to prove me wrong.


For whatever reason, I am not offended by less ostentatious or less exotic furs. My mom has a mink coat that she loves because it keeps her very warm and cozy. And honestly, I''ve never worn fur, so I can''t speak to whether it is warmer than the other alternatives. Generally, though, now that I really think about it, I guess I really do not like fur.


I think it may be because it feels so much like wearing an animal as a leopard skin trophy. And I guess what offends me is that this attention it coming at the cost of a life of a lovely, wild, beautiful animal. I suppose I would assume a lot of things about a person wearing a coat like that and I suppose that I don''t understand why anyone would want to wear something that looks like a leopard, as it would likely garner the same reactions.


Am I saying that leopards are better than sheep and cows and mink? I guess I am. Is that irrational? Maybe. Are you going to convince me that eating a filet mignon is the same as wearing leopard fur coat - nope. Isn''t going to happen.


It is totally a personal decision - and you seem to have made yours...so go with it.

littlelysser, my sentiments exactly. Well said...

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 12/14/2007 2:03:30 AM
Author: surfgirl

Date: 12/13/2007 11:51:32 PM
Author: littlelysser

Date: 12/13/2007 8:13:26 PM

Author: Ninama

Date: 12/13/2007 3:27:00 PM


Author: littlelysser


I wear leather coats and shoes - don''t really have a problem with either. I don''t really equate wearing leather shoes or wearing a toned down fur coat with wearing a big old leopard fur coat.




And well, I must say, I''ve never seens someone wearing either leopard or lippi cat in real life, but I think it is kind of vomitious and over the top.




Something about it is so top of the food chain and totally uneccesary and well, you''d be wearing a LEOPARD or another wild cat. Something that is really beautiful and amazing in the wild...wearing it for your own selfish enjoyment. Yuck. Cause you clearly aren''t wearing it just for warmth (there are other, much less ''look at me'' types of fur) - you are doing it for people to look and getting that attention by wearing a dead leopard...yuck.




Wow. Didn''t know I felt so strongly about this...

So... by that standard, a sheep or cow is less worthy of living, because it''s less .... magnificent? Less good-looking? Less beautiful and amazing in the wild? As for much less ''look at me'' types of fur - do you think they''re sanctionable?



Is eating prime filet mignon not top of the food chain selfish enjoyment?

I guess I''m a bit perplexed by the point of your posting and asking for folks'' opinions on exotic fur. You said you wanted people''s perspectives, and then well, you kind of play devil''s advocate and jump on those that disagree with you. If you want to wear a coat made of bengal tiger cubs and pair it with elephant tusks as earrings, go ahead. I was just offering my opinion and you certainly don''t need to prove me wrong.


For whatever reason, I am not offended by less ostentatious or less exotic furs. My mom has a mink coat that she loves because it keeps her very warm and cozy. And honestly, I''ve never worn fur, so I can''t speak to whether it is warmer than the other alternatives. Generally, though, now that I really think about it, I guess I really do not like fur.


I think it may be because it feels so much like wearing an animal as a leopard skin trophy. And I guess what offends me is that this attention it coming at the cost of a life of a lovely, wild, beautiful animal. I suppose I would assume a lot of things about a person wearing a coat like that and I suppose that I don''t understand why anyone would want to wear something that looks like a leopard, as it would likely garner the same reactions.


Am I saying that leopards are better than sheep and cows and mink? I guess I am. Is that irrational? Maybe. Are you going to convince me that eating a filet mignon is the same as wearing leopard fur coat - nope. Isn''t going to happen.


It is totally a personal decision - and you seem to have made yours...so go with it.

littlelysser, my sentiments exactly. Well said...

ditto what surfgirl said.

movie zombie

 

[bee*]

I won''t quote the posts above again, but definitely agree with it. It makes me really sad to see those coats

 

[VegasAngel]

Date: 12/13/2007 11:13:13 PM
Author: Diamond*Dana
'For whatever reason, whenever I think fur, I think of those old shrug type of things, what did they call them, 'stoles' or something like that. The kind with the head still attached. Talk about freaking out.'

You mean this? Ah yes, we found this in my FIL's house after he moved to his new condo...not only is it sad, but it is very disgusting! They have CLAWS! Now anyone that knows me in real life is absolutely STUNNED that I even have these little guys living under my roof. The only reason that I do is because my mouthy 8 year old has let it be known that this is the only thing that I can use against him to get him to be more cooperative. As soon as I find something that is equally as effective, I am going to give them the proper burial that they deserve.

Blech, those are gross. Wasnt that style more like a scarf? I have never seem those with limbs attached.

A stole is is more like a wrap, no? Like this: I kind of like the way it looks. I'm not knowledgeable in fur so I may be wrong about what is what. FTR I dont have any real fur items.

 

[partgypsy]

"So... by that standard, a sheep or cow is less worthy of living, because it''s less .... magnificent? Less good-looking? Less beautiful and amazing in the wild? As for much less ''look at me'' types of fur - do you think they''re sanctionable?"

If you don''t see the difference between wearing a leather coat made of the skin of a domesticated cow that is a by-product of the meat industry, and wearing the skin of an endangered animal, well, I don''t know if I could explain it to you. Maybe you could get a gorilla hand ashtray to match it.
Nimana, as you said those who don''t like fur eat meat this don''t reply (you are the one censoring people, not us) but you asked opinions from those who do eat meat and wear leather (which I am in that category) what they think about wearing exotic (i.e. endangered and usually protected species) cat fur. You got it.

Vegas Angel, I don''t expect everyone to agree with my views. I didn''t say you don''t belong, or you shouldn''t post your views, but it made me have a realization that yes, maybe I don''t belong in this forum.

It''s hard to explain, but part of why we visit this forum is that we have a love for wonders of nature, that is in the form of these perfect mineral specimens taken from the earth, polished and faceted to be beautiful works of both art AND nature.
To me wonders like tropical forests, coral reefs, bird estuaries, and the creatures who live there are OTHER gems of this world, often more precious and far more rare than the gems we so value. I would like to believe that even if we cannot individually own them we would understand their value, or at least their right for existence, and that they will be here for my children and children''s children.

A hypothetical question. If someone figured out that the profit from dismantling the Grand Canyon into 2 foot individual chunks and selling them as souveniers would bring in more profit than revenue from people visiting the park, is it the right decision to destroy the Grand Canyon because it is more profitable to do so?

I myself constantly struggle with my desire to possess, and the knowledge that some of the best things in life cannot be owned but it is our responsibility preserve them for all.

 

[VegasAngel]

I totally understand your point PG. People buy exotic animals (Savannah cats, exotic birds & fish, monkeys) shark teeth, ivory, fur I can go on forever. It''s too bad there is a market for those things but I doubt it will ever end.

 

[Layney]

While I have a certain amount of moral uncertainty with respect to wearing furs, particularly furs of endangered animals, I can''t help but wonder if the alternative is just as bad. The amount of oil reserves used up in making plastics and other synthetic materials for winter coats has a detrimental effect on the environment. Furthermore, a faux-fur might only last a year or two, while natural furs last much longer. The manufacturing and shipping of fur alternatives contributes to global warming which in turn is destroying the habitats of endangered species. Does it really matter how these animals are killed? Is one way less evil than another.

I find it funny that in an attempt to protect animals, some people abstain from fur, others from eating meat, or even using any product with animal origins, but people rarely consider the effect that other aspects of their lives has on these animals. We rarely hear about animal rights activists protesting synthetic materials, or the use of automobiles, water pollution and other environmentally harmful products/activities.

I don''t own fur and don''t know if I ever could, but I think the issue isn''t as black and white as it seems.

 

[widget]

Really interesting points, Layney!

I guess one good thing about living in CA is that the ''fur or not to fur'' question doesn''t come up so often. I must admit the thought of a warm fuzzywuzzy fur coat sounds wonderful in lands of wild winters..

I must have some Cruella DeVille in me because I''ve caught myself having evil thoughts while admiring some exotic creature on Animal Planet!

....I really wouldn''t wear an exotic fur, but I would snatch up a Nancy Gonzalez croc handbag in a minute! (I guess I have less feeling for reptiles than I do pussy cats.)

widget

 

[Diamond*Dana]

Date: 12/14/2007 11:01:44 AM
Author: VegasAngel

Date: 12/13/2007 11:13:13 PM
Author: Diamond*Dana
'For whatever reason, whenever I think fur, I think of those old shrug type of things, what did they call them, 'stoles' or something like that. The kind with the head still attached. Talk about freaking out.'

You mean this? Ah yes, we found this in my FIL's house after he moved to his new condo...not only is it sad, but it is very disgusting! They have CLAWS! Now anyone that knows me in real life is absolutely STUNNED that I even have these little guys living under my roof. The only reason that I do is because my mouthy 8 year old has let it be known that this is the only thing that I can use against him to get him to be more cooperative. As soon as I find something that is equally as effective, I am going to give them the proper burial that they deserve.

Blech, those are gross. Wasnt that style more like a scarf? I have never seem those with limbs attached.

A stole is is more like a wrap, no? Like this: I kind of like the way it looks. I'm not knowledgeable in fur so I may be wrong about what is what. FTR I dont have any real fur items.

I have no idea what you would call this "style", but I would not be wearing one. I do not and would not personally own any real animal fur, it is just not my style and I would be saddened by this sort of thing. I just don't know what to do with this! My late MIL had a mink coat, a very pretty one, that we ended up consigning because nobody in the family wanted it.

 

[VegasAngel]

Date: 12/14/2007 12:43:23 PM
Author: Diamond*Dana

Date: 12/14/2007 11:01:44 AM
Author: VegasAngel

Date: 12/13/2007 11:13:13 PM
Author: Diamond*Dana
''For whatever reason, whenever I think fur, I think of those old shrug type of things, what did they call them, ''stoles'' or something like that. The kind with the head still attached. Talk about freaking out.''

You mean this? Ah yes, we found this in my FIL''s house after he moved to his new condo...not only is it sad, but it is very disgusting! They have CLAWS! Now anyone that knows me in real life is absolutely STUNNED that I even have these little guys living under my roof. The only reason that I do is because my mouthy 8 year old has let it be known that this is the only thing that I can use against him to get him to be more cooperative. As soon as I find something that is equally as effective, I am going to give them the proper burial that they deserve.

Blech, those are gross. Wasnt that style more like a scarf? I have never seem those with limbs attached.

A stole is is more like a wrap, no? Like this: I kind of like the way it looks. I''m not knowledgeable in fur so I may be wrong about what is what. FTR I dont have any real fur items.

I have no idea what you would call this ''style'', but I would not be wearing one. I do not and would not personally own any real animal fur, it is just not my style and I am way too into the humane treatment of animals for this sort of thing. I just don''t know what to do with this! My late MIL had a mink coat, a very pretty one, that we ended up consigning because nobody in the family wanted it.

The damage is already done, kwim? I dont know how you would feel about this but you could always sell them & donate the money to an animal welfare organization.

 

[surfgirl]

Date: 12/14/2007 11:15:02 AM
Author: part gypsy
''So... by that standard, a sheep or cow is less worthy of living, because it''s less .... magnificent? Less good-looking? Less beautiful and amazing in the wild? As for much less ''look at me'' types of fur - do you think they''re sanctionable?''


If you don''t see the difference between wearing a leather coat made of the skin of a domesticated cow that is a by-product of the meat industry, and wearing the skin of an endangered animal, well, I don''t know if I could explain it to you. Maybe you could get a gorilla hand ashtray to match it.

Nimana, as you said those who don''t like fur eat meat this don''t reply (you are the one censoring people, not us) but you asked opinions from those who do eat meat and wear leather (which I am in that category) what they think about wearing exotic (i.e. endangered and usually protected species) cat fur. You got it.


Vegas Angel, I don''t expect everyone to agree with my views. I didn''t say you don''t belong, or you shouldn''t post your views, but it made me have a realization that yes, maybe I don''t belong in this forum.


It''s hard to explain, but part of why we visit this forum is that we have a love for wonders of nature, that is in the form of these perfect mineral specimens taken from the earth, polished and faceted to be beautiful works of both art AND nature.

To me wonders like tropical forests, coral reefs, bird estuaries, and the creatures who live there are OTHER gems of this world, often more precious and far more rare than the gems we so value. I would like to believe that even if we cannot individually own them we would understand their value, or at least their right for existence, and that they will be here for my children and children''s children.


A hypothetical question. If someone figured out that the profit from dismantling the Grand Canyon into 2 foot individual chunks and selling them as souveniers would bring in more profit than revenue from people visiting the park, is it the right decision to destroy the Grand Canyon because it is more profitable to do so?


I myself constantly struggle with my desire to possess, and the knowledge that some of the best things in life cannot be owned but it is our responsibility preserve them for all.

PG, so many really great points in your post and it was so right on with what I was trying to figure out how to say! And just so you know, you''re not alone, it''s not just you that feels you might be in the wrong forum...others have felt the same way lately... There seems to be this undercurrent here at times, that rabid consumerism is something to be bandied about and rewarded with lots of "Oh my god, that''s amazing!" posts, when perhaps it would be better to question WHY many people here seem so insatiable about luxury purchases (if it''s not jewelry, it''s furs, designer duds, handbags that cost thousands of dollars, etc.). Seriously, if some folks took all the money they throw around and put some of it towards really worthy causes - like conservation, or programs that help to re-build a place like Sierra Leone (because it was ravaged in large part because of diamond mining) - just imagine all the good that could be done. It actually saddens me to think about the possibilities because they''d be significant, no doubt! I''m not saying people shouldn''t make luxury purchases, not at all, but there seems to be no limit.

I agree with you that things like diamonds are a natural wonder and I too, think of them as such. But I dont think that means everyone here or elsewhere feels/thinks like that. I think there are those everywhere who simply want the biggest stone, the most extravagant piece, the most pieces of everything, etc. On a personal level, I feel honored to own some lovely and special pieces, most of which have been in my family for decades. But...I realized a couple of years ago that I do not "need" umpteen rings and earrings because I can never wear them all and since I only wear 2-3 ever, what''s the point? I also realized that I dont need several expensive bracelets and necklaces because I dont even like wearing bracelets and really dont wear necklaces very often. Likewise with expensive watches, etc. So I sold some of my non-family jewelry and decided to stop asking for jewelry for each potential holiday gift because it was a waste of money after a certain point. I realized how much I could buy at, say, Heifer Foundation, with one jewelry purchase and man, what it an eye opener that was. I''m not perfect, not in any way. But I was happy that I took a pause and realized I didn''t want to become an insatiable consumer. And the more I am here on this board, the more I feel that insatiable vibe from others. I saddens me. But PG, I applaud you for recognizing your desire to possess objects, and acknowledge it. It means you''re an aware person, and that''s something that''s a very good thing...

PG, thanks...for reminding us all of what''s really important...

 

[Cind11]

Date: 12/14/2007 11:15:02 AM
Author: part gypsy

''So... by that standard, a sheep or cow is less worthy of living, because it''s less .... magnificent? Less good-looking? Less beautiful and amazing in the wild? As for much less ''look at me'' types of fur - do you think they''re sanctionable?''

If you don''t see the difference between wearing a leather coat made of the skin of a domesticated cow that is a by-product of the meat industry, and wearing the skin of an endangered animal, well, I don''t know if I could explain it to you. Maybe you could get a gorilla hand ashtray to match it.
Nimana, as you said those who don''t like fur eat meat this don''t reply (you are the one censoring people, not us) but you asked opinions from those who do eat meat and wear leather (which I am in that category) what they think about wearing exotic (i.e. endangered and usually protected species) cat fur. You got it.

Vegas Angel, I don''t expect everyone to agree with my views. I didn''t say you don''t belong, or you shouldn''t post your views, but it made me have a realization that yes, maybe I don''t belong in this forum.

It''s hard to explain, but part of why we visit this forum is that we have a love for wonders of nature, that is in the form of these perfect mineral specimens taken from the earth, polished and faceted to be beautiful works of both art AND nature.
To me wonders like tropical forests, coral reefs, bird estuaries, and the creatures who live there are OTHER gems of this world, often more precious and far more rare than the gems we so value. I would like to believe that even if we cannot individually own them we would understand their value, or at least their right for existence, and that they will be here for my children and children''s children.

A hypothetical question. If someone figured out that the profit from dismantling the Grand Canyon into 2 foot individual chunks and selling them as souveniers would bring in more profit than revenue from people visiting the park, is it the right decision to destroy the Grand Canyon because it is more profitable to do so?

I myself constantly struggle with my desire to possess, and the knowledge that some of the best things in life cannot be owned but it is our responsibility preserve them for all.

I wasn''t going to post on this thread because the thought of wearing animal fur makes me incredibly sad, but you have summed up many of my thoughts perfectly.

 

[partgypsy]

Surfgirl, Cind11, thanks.
It makes me glad that I decided to explain my thoughts.

 

[Linda W]

DD,

Egad, I remember those stoles. When my brother and I were little, we used to go to church with my parents. The women of the 1950''s used to wear those god awful things. It used to scare my brother and I. One lady used to sit in front of us. My brother and I used to stare at them, waiting for them to move. The poor little things.

Linda

 

[Madam Bijoux]

I enjoy watching living animals much more than I would enjoy wearing a bunch of dead animals sewn together.

 

[bee*]

Date: 12/14/2007 12:01:27 PM
Author: Layney
Does it really matter how these animals are killed? Is one way less evil than another.

I think that it matters a huge amount how these animals which are used for fur are killed. I''ve seen some absolutely disgusting videos on what they do and I just don''t know how anyone could do that to an animal.

 

[Layney]

Bee* - I agree entirely that it is cruel and unnecessary. I just think that slowly starving to death because your food source has disappeared, being poisoned by the water you drink or live in or dying because there is no place to make your home is just as bad as being clubbed or electrocuted. It may even be worse because it is more drawn out. I think we forget that as humans our actions and lifestyles have consequences to other species that reach much further than we generally consider.

 

[bee*]

Date: 12/14/2007 5:38:16 PM
Author: Layney
Bee* - I agree entirely that it is cruel and unnecessary. I just think that slowly starving to death because your food source has disappeared, being poisoned by the water you drink or live in or dying because there is no place to make your home is just as bad as being clubbed or electrocuted. It may even be worse because it is more drawn out. I think we forget that as humans our actions and lifestyles have consequences to other species that reach much further than we generally consider.

I agree with you in that context-I just thought you meant in general does it matter how they''re killed. It''s such a shame to see what''s happening to them.

 

[Nicrez]

Date: 12/13/2007 11:50:03 AM
Author:Ninama
If you''re opposed to wearing fur/leather *at all*, this question doesn''t really apply, but for those to do/would wear fur - how do you feel about exotics? I mean legal exotics... like lippi cat or vintage leopard.

I love fur... and the look of exotic, spotted fur. But I find I have some weird resistance to lippi (geoffrey''s cat) and not to, say, a 40 year old leopard coat. This is for sale in IL (but can''t cross state lines due to U.S. Department of Fish and Wildlife Service regulations):

Ninama,

I am sorry you thought maybe this would be a somewhat objective post? I think you clearly said that this post was for those who DO wear fur, however, no matter what, people will chime in with their opinions because they are strong, and growing stronger against fur. I think if your post read, "Should I abort this baby?" or "Which religion is correct?" only then you might have gotten a few more arguments. Either way, somethings are not objective, and you take all the unsolicited comments with the ones you were looking for. I make no judgements on others or their actions, as I hope others will follw my suit. It''s very noble to care passionately about something, but it''s not ppossible to have everyone agree with you, and sometimes respecting another person''s differences is the best course of action.

Weighing in, in NYC there are many fur coats. Most of the women who wear them daily wear their thousand dollar, 20 year old coats with sneakers. I agree with Mara that it''s an old out-dated look and it''s often considered tacky. In that context I agree. However, most women who own exotics and unique fur coats often go for less is best, where the coat is worn to a black tie, or an event as a fashion accent, instead of a full coat, or something floor length. When used correctly and designed by a designer who understands the strength and statement fur can make on a wardrobe, I do not believe that fur is at all tacky. To me it''s about how it''s designed, and how a woman carries the piece personally.

Careful with exotics as they often need more attention than regular fur. I would never keep fur out of cold storage, because no matter where you live, humidity is in the air, and in warm weather will often collect on the lining of the coat. This is why many older fur coats have that old musty smell. It''s that the person didn''t want to spend the $50 for yearly cold storage. I personally have an heirloom coat that has been passed down in cold storage for many years. Since it was purchased, it was cared for, and it is truly well kept! It is only worn at ocassions that I feel warrant something special. Exotics in shows and other accessories have become very popular in the last few years, despite the animal rights campaigning. On the runways, fur is back in, but in my opinion, taste is always in fashion. Only you have the barometer for your taste, so trust yourself and make your own style.

I operate under the principle of less is best, so for me, personally the coat is certainly a special piece, but I would not wear it on a daily basis. If I had an exotic of that print, I would perhaps prefer it as accenting for something simpler, to wear on a daily basis. Good luck, and if you decide to get it, please make sure to factor in the cost of maintenance as it''s essential to any item you want to preserve for years.

Good luck and wear it in good health!

 

[Jypsie]

Date: 12/13/2007 1:39:50 PM
Author: fleur-de-lis
Ew. Sorry.

Consistent with that ''using all of the animal'' philosophy that seems noble in historical accounts of native americans on the plains in centuries past, the use of leather seems to be a good thing if a culture which eats the underlying animal (cows) and finds underlying purposes for the non-edible portions. But ripping the skin off of a wild cat or leopard (and giving it an ambiguous name to so the uninformed don''t get grossed out) and then wearing it? WAAAAY too Cruella deVille IMO.

I couldn''t agree with you more.

I''ll admit, I haven''t read through this entire thread... I got as far as this post, so I don''t know what''s still to come. But, I wanted to chime in on this post/reply in particular - not too long ago, "raccoon" was being used on the label of clothing, jackets, etc that in fact were using canine fur - perhaps not the specific breed of canine that you''d find in a store, but a canine nonetheless.

this is where my post is going to start getting graphic... read ahead at your own risk....



I agree with the approach of using all of the animal, if these "raccoons" were to be used to eat, and for other purposes, I likely wouldn''t have a problem with it. But, being involved with many of the charities that I am involved with that protect animals from this exact thing (yes, I wear leather, and yes I''m not completely creeped out by the thought of people wearing fur) what I oppose is how some of these animals are skinned and killed. Do you know that many animals that are killed for the purpose of only using their fur are in fact skinned alive, without sedation and without any kind of euthanization? Do you know that many of these animals are put down only after they have been completely skinned and manyof them are "put down" with bats, or by beating their heads onto stones on the ground, or worse?

That''s where I have to draw the line - if people want to wear fur, more power to them, I would prefer that those that do wear leather and furs of animals that they can make use of the rest of the carcass, but if not... I would hope that in the very least, the animal that is giving up its life for someone''s luxury item not have to suffer any in the process of giving up its coat.

 

[Nicrez]

That''s where I have to draw the line - if people want to wear fur, more power to them, I would prefer that those that do wear leather and furs of animals that they can make use of the rest of the carcass, but if not... I would hope that in the very least, the animal that is giving up its life for someone''s luxury item not have to suffer any in the process of giving up its coat.

It''s best to have all the facts before making a decision and alerting the public about cruelty.

When breeding animals there is a conscious decision made on HOW to raise them. A lactation cow, a leather cow and a beef cow are all raised differently. A cow for beef is fed at the EXPENSE of his hide retaining softness, and he is fed so that the meat is tender. A cow for leather is often a calf, or even a newborn that had not had the time to develop any meat worht selling. The meat of these cows is often ground up for filler, animal feed or fertilizer. You would not want to eat hide cows'' meat. And a lactation cow is often fed and bred for producing milk, again at the expense of softer hide, or better meat. It is a fallacy that soft leather boots you wear are made with the same cow the meat is taken from. More often than not the leather is industrial grade on beef cows, like for cars and industry.

Leather information froma Vegan site:
http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/factsheets/leather.html

With that said, one must always make a conscious decision in everything they do, and know what is entailed in what they buy and wear.

Also, the "racoon/dog" issue was somewhat misleading. It''s not Fido or Fluffy, but they used "Raccoon Dogs" which are a breed named after raccoons but still are canus species, mainly found in Asia (Japan). Their fur is also distinctly different in texture and look than an actual racoon. But rest assured German Shepards, Collies and Yorkies are all safe from the fur industry.

What I find interesting is that dogs are coveted and using Fluffy''s fur is condemned vehemently, yet no one says anything about the leather shoes they sport, the ubiquitous kid leather gloves, etc...

 

[Jypsie]

Date: 12/14/2007 8:09:17 PM
Author: Nicrez

That''s where I have to draw the line - if people want to wear fur, more power to them, I would prefer that those that do wear leather and furs of animals that they can make use of the rest of the carcass, but if not... I would hope that in the very least, the animal that is giving up its life for someone''s luxury item not have to suffer any in the process of giving up its coat.

It''s best to have all the facts before making a decision and alerting the public about cruelty.

When breeding animals there is a conscious decision made on HOW to raise them. A lactation cow, a leather cow and a beef cow are all raised differently. A cow for beef is fed at the EXPENSE of his hide retaining softness, and he is fed so that the meat is tender. A cow for leather is often a calf, or even a newborn that had not had the time to develop any meat worht selling. The meat of these cows is often ground up for filler, animal feed or fertilizer. You would not want to eat hide cows'' meat. And a lactation cow is often fed and bred for producing milk, again at the expense of softer hide, or better meat. It is a fallacy that soft leather boots you wear are made with the same cow the meat is taken from. More often than not the leather is industrial grade on beef cows, like for cars and industry.

Leather information froma Vegan site:
http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/factsheets/leather.html

With that said, one must always make a conscious decision in everything they do, and know what is entailed in what they buy and wear.

Also, the ''racoon/dog'' issue was somewhat misleading. It''s not Fido or Fluffy, but they used ''Raccoon Dogs'' which are a breed named after raccoons but still are canus species, mainly found in Asia (Japan). Their fur is also distinctly different in texture and look than an actual racoon. But rest assured German Shepards, Collies and Yorkies are all safe from the fur industry.

What I find interesting is that dogs are coveted and using Fluffy''s fur is condemned vehemently, yet no one says anything about the leather shoes they sport, the ubiquitous kid leather gloves, etc...

I agree, it is important to have all of the facts. And yes, the raccoon dog issue was absolutely misconstrued by the media, but if you look deeper into the issue, as I stated in my post, these aren''t the typical pets - the fact remains they are still canine.

The fact that the meat from a hide cow is used at all, whether for feed for other animals or whatever, still makes the majority of the animal useable.

I absolutely respect those that are vehement about no leather, no fur, no medical testing, etc - honestly, I''m probably a couple of bad rescues from jumping on that bandwagon myself.

I think the reason that we hear most about "Fluffy" or "Spike" being the hypothetical animal in the examples given is because that''s what brings it home for most people. I know that until I had my first encounter with a "bait dog" I really didn''t have much of an opinion about dog fighting - sure it''s cruel, but hell people go into a ring and beat the snot out of each other and make money, and it''s not illegal, right? Then I had the bait dog experience and I started to consider it more, it''s easy to not give thought to things that don''t affect us in our every day lives. It''s unfortunate, but it''s true.

My husband and I were having a discussion the other day about the value "we" (meaning society - not "we" meaning him and I) put on animals in general. We are SO far from a time or a place where animals are seen as more then a material object - if it becomes an inconvenience it''s disposable. Absolutely disgusting and the people who think like that about any living creature they adopt and bring into their home should be punished horribly, as if it was a child they were discarding - but, our laws don''t agree with me and hubby, so that''s the world we live in.

I, for one, don''t place anymore value on a dog, or a chinchilla, or a rat, or a ferret, or a cow then I do any other animal - I value MY dogs more then any of them, because they are mine, I signed on the day I brought them into my home to keep them healthy, happy, well loved and protected for their entire life... not until it became an inconvenience.

Oh boy, I could go on and on about this for pages.

Anyway, the point of my post was to agree with Nicrez for the most part. The only part I disagree with is the part about not having all the facts and alerting the public to cruelty. I have seen the cruelty that I described, I have seen the results of some of this cruelty first hand - we wind up with at least one or two of them every year in the rescue, I''ve seen many, many examples of other types of cruelty to various animal species because of the greed that drives breeding and pelt farms - chinchilla stories make my stomach turn in knots. I absolutely wish it wasn''t the case that we were a more civilized society, but when it comes to the mighty dollar, people will do what they feel they need to, to increase their profit margins, especially in industries that deal with fur, pets, skins, etc. and unfortunately these are also industries that are not regulated in appropriate ways - at least in my opinion.

 

[strmrdr]

storm loves fur and wants a bear fur throw for his bed :}
if its what ya want then go for it.