Collaborative Tutorial Update - Grading Reports

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/17/2007 10:01:47 AM
Author: Regular Guy
Also, Garry...you didn''t ask...but consider a page zero...serving as an introduction.

You''ve got here in this tutorial a style resembling the re-ordering of the Encycopedia Britanica into two sets of info...the Macropedia (part I) and the Micropedia (part II). I''ve found landing into your first page on grading reports a bit odd...sort of like starting in the middle of some soup.

An intro page might again lead up to where you''re ending in part I...giving you some perspective that if you''d like to know what to buy...this is designed to give you some useful info towards that.

So...consider this ...an idea...for page...zero...

---------------

So you’re looking to buy a diamond…

You’re in good company. Many will shop for an engagement ring that includes one..or more diamonds. The advantage of this tutorial…and this site, where others who have made such purchases before tend to roost and like to give advice through the forums…is that others have gone through this process before…and you can take advantage of that experience.

Two pieces of advice, and then a comment on some of what you’ll see in this tutorial:

A) Trust your senses. Diamonds are a favorite gem associated with marriage…almost certainly because both marriage and diamonds can be very beautiful! Also, of course…marriage can get very involved…and so can a study of diamonds. But…. don’t let your eyes off the prize. Since one is drawn to buying a diamond for its fire, it’s brilliance, its shimmer & beauty…as they say on the commercial…don’t leave home without it. Much of this tutorial is designed to assist you with tools to help you do this.

B) Also, however…trust…but verify. In most cases, the purchase of a diamond represents a significant expense. Consider that diamonds are sometimes known as “Ice.” In a sense…you’re buying an ICEburg…that is…a gem that should be beautiful…but has lots of associated qualities…many of which lie beneath the surface, like an iceburg…less easy for a person who is not an expert to personally witness all of its dimensions. It is based on many of these details that your cost may be established…so you are advised to verify beyond your personal experience of the diamond, the basis of the value of your purchase.

More about this iceburg like diamond purchase:

1) Note…unlike the way ships treat iceburgs…we’re going looking for this one. And…although they may have many unseen characteristics…we’re particularly interested in the seen ones. From the reports of other shoppers…we know of how they can have untold beauty…and the traits it will have when it is like this. These reports are from ship captains/shoppers from before us…who have laid down charts we can follow. For example…not only have these diamonds been charted…they’ve been certified, and many of them (the ones we think you should look for) described by agencies who know how to map them. So…since one can know what they look like with some accuracy based on these documents….it’s recommended that you look for diamonds with features you can see and understand. If they don’t have those features you can begin to understand right away from this tutorial…move on. Consistent this with, we note many local jewelers can help us with this search. Unfortunately…an even larger number can’t. The main thing is…whether you’re shopping locally or from an away vendor…don’t settle if you don’t have to. The diamonds you’re looking for are likely to have certain identifiable characteristics.

2) This Iceburg/diamond is sort of like a pyramid…pointy on the top…broad on the bottom. Don’t confuse the top from the bottom. Unfortunately…we think many do….confusing features (you’ll be reading about the 4 Cs here) that are most easily perceived and understood….with ones that are most valuable. In fact…the market for diamonds tends, unfortunately, to have gotten aspects of pricing upside down. You’ll read here that the way a diamond is cut…when it’s well cut…will provide the greatest value for the diamond buyer…and yet…the relative premium you will pay for this is smaller than you will have to pay for features like clarity and color…which will cost you more to get in more premium grades. But you will notice the premium that cut brings…and you will not as readily notice, for example, the optical advantage of most premium clarities. Likewise…with the pyramid being mostly submerged…though you will be paying for the actual qualities of color and clarity…the way to identify these critically is both tied to the cost of the diamond…yet difficult to confirm yourself. You’ll read here that diamonds certified by grading agencies can help you confirm these details, and further…that different certifications will be more strict with respect to those criteria than other agencies. Although the choice with respect to these certifications is personal…the pattern of higher quality diamonds being sent to the more critical agencies is unmistakable.

3) Later, in the advanced portion of the tutorial, you’ll understand that not only is pricing and value inverted with our pyramid/iceburg/diamond….you’ll be able to apply this same view to “getting hip” to finding a well cut diamond. For example…you’ll understand from conventional presentations about cut that an ideal make will have the light reflecting back to you. What’s less frequently defined is that this “ideal make” is based primarily on the angles in the pavilion and crown of the diamond. Especially in the case of the most commonly sought after shape…rounds…you’ll be able to understand with tools you’ll be presented with here that small variations in pavilion angles could be compensated for by a larger inverse variation in crown angle…and you’ll see that while attending to the categories used in certification of ideal to excellent to very good to good, fair & poor will be helpful…you can come into your own understanding of how these categories have been applied…and make some of what we think are frequently corrections to those designations…yourself.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/19/2007 3:25:34 PM
Author: Regular Guy

Date: 11/17/2007 10:01:47 AM
Author: Regular Guy
Also, Garry...you didn''t ask...but consider a page zero...serving as an introduction.

You''ve got here in this tutorial a style resembling the re-ordering of the Encycopedia Britanica into two sets of info...the Macropedia (part I) and the Micropedia (part II). I''ve found landing into your first page on grading reports a bit odd...sort of like starting in the middle of some soup.

An intro page might again lead up to where you''re ending in part I...giving you some perspective that if you''d like to know what to buy...this is designed to give you some useful info towards that.

So...consider this ...an idea...for page...zero...

---------------

So you’re looking to buy a diamond…


You’re in good company. Many will shop for an engagement ring that includes one..or more diamonds. The advantage of this tutorial…and this site, where others who have made such purchases before tend to roost and like to give advice through the forums…is that others have gone through this process before…and you can take advantage of that experience.

Two pieces of advice, and then a comment on some of what you’ll see in this tutorial:

A) Trust your senses. Diamonds are a favorite gem associated with marriage…almost certainly because both marriage and diamonds can be very beautiful! Also, of course…marriage can get very involved…and so can a study of diamonds. But…. don’t let your eyes off the prize. Since one is drawn to buying a diamond for its fire, it’s brilliance, its shimmer & beauty…as they say on the commercial…don’t leave home without it. Much of this tutorial is designed to assist you with tools to help you do this.

B) Also, however…trust…but verify. In most cases, the purchase of a diamond represents a significant expense. Consider that diamonds are sometimes known as “Ice.” In a sense…you’re buying an ICEburg…that is…a gem that should be beautiful…but has lots of associated qualities…many of which lie beneath the surface, like an iceburg…less easy for a person who is not an expert to personally witness all of its dimensions. It is based on many of these details that your cost may be established…so you are advised to verify beyond your personal experience of the diamond, the basis of the value of your purchase.

More about this iceburg like diamond purchase:

1) Note…unlike the way ships treat iceburgs…we’re going looking for this one. And…although they may have many unseen characteristics…we’re particularly interested in the seen ones. From the reports of other shoppers…we know of how they can have untold beauty…and the traits it will have when it is like this. These reports are from ship captains/shoppers from before us…who have laid down charts we can follow. For example…not only have these diamonds been charted…they’ve been certified, and many of them (the ones we think you should look for) described by agencies who know how to map them. So…since one can know what they look like with some accuracy based on these documents….it’s recommended that you look for diamonds with features you can see and understand. If they don’t have those features you can begin to understand right away from this tutorial…move on. Consistent this with, we note many local jewelers can help us with this search. Unfortunately…an even larger number can’t. The main thing is…whether you’re shopping locally or from an away vendor…don’t settle if you don’t have to. The diamonds you’re looking for are likely to have certain identifiable characteristics.

2) This Iceburg/diamond is sort of like a pyramid…pointy on the top…broad on the bottom. Don’t confuse the top from the bottom. Unfortunately…we think many do….confusing features (you’ll be reading about the 4 Cs here) that are most easily perceived and understood….with ones that are most valuable. In fact…the market for diamonds tends, unfortunately, to have gotten aspects of pricing upside down. You’ll read here that the way a diamond is cut…when it’s well cut…will provide the greatest value for the diamond buyer…and yet…the relative premium you will pay for this is smaller than you will have to pay for features like clarity and color…which will cost you more to get in more premium grades. But you will notice the premium that cut brings…and you will not as readily notice, for example, the optical advantage of most premium clarities. Likewise…with the pyramid being mostly submerged…though you will be paying for the actual qualities of color and clarity…the way to identify these critically is both tied to the cost of the diamond…yet difficult to confirm yourself. You’ll read here that diamonds certified by grading agencies can help you confirm these details, and further…that different certifications will be more strict with respect to those criteria than other agencies. Although the choice with respect to these certifications is personal…the pattern of higher quality diamonds being sent to the more critical agencies is unmistakable.

3) Later, in the advanced portion of the tutorial, you’ll understand that not only is pricing and value inverted with our pyramid/iceburg/diamond….you’ll be able to apply this same view to “getting hip” to finding a well cut diamond. For example…you’ll understand from conventional presentations about cut that an ideal make will have the light reflecting back to you. What’s less frequently defined is that this “ideal make” is based primarily on the angles in the pavilion and crown of the diamond. Especially in the case of the most commonly sought after shape…rounds…you’ll be able to understand with tools you’ll be presented with here that small variations in pavilion angles could be compensated for by a larger inverse variation in crown angle…and you’ll see that while attending to the categories used in certification of ideal to excellent to very good to good, fair & poor will be helpful…you can come into your own understanding of how these categories have been applied…and make some of what we think are frequently corrections to those designations…yourself.

Thanks Ira, great idea.

will look at the cntent later

 

[Regular Guy]

Beer...or iceburgs?

The style of the existing tutorial, of course, isn''t really consistent with the use of analogies to communicate its ideas. Also, my use of language...as Garry is wont to let on (others will just snicker...except Belle...she''s said it, too) might need surgery, if the ideas were to be adopted.

I still like the idea of being introduced to the tutorial, to help you step in to it. It''s worth recognizing, though...that if you''re not in complete agreement. but want to send someone to an introduction to the tutorial that is not exactly built into the tutorial already...you can send them here (select the link at Knowledge above), today...and still get your analogy.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/21/2007 7:25:51 AM
Author: Regular Guy
Beer...or iceburgs?

The style of the existing tutorial, of course, isn''t really consistent with the use of analogies to communicate its ideas. Also, my use of language...as Garry is wont to let on (others will just snicker...except Belle...she''s said it, too) might need surgery, if the ideas were to be adopted.

I still like the idea of being introduced to the tutorial, to help you step in to it. It''s worth recognizing, though...that if you''re not in complete agreement. but want to send someone to an introduction to the tutorial that is not exactly built into the tutorial already...you can send them here (select the link at Knowledge above), today...and still get your analogy.

I strongly agree with the intro page Ira

And thx for sneaking a link in

It should say something like that page, Andery likes the idea of a little personality.

Neil is this too flippant?

Your pulse pounds like a jackhammer. Sweat trickles and the glare of 100 lights highlight the object of your ignorance. Your ego shrinks to the size of… what is it…..half a carat?

What’s his name, Francois? Frappe? Fran?! Smug #@&% watching you squirm. All you want is a diamond for your sweetheart.

If this supercharged carbon was beer… or cameras, or motorcycles, it would be a breeze. But diamonds, you’ve gotta learn about carats, clarity, brilliance, color, marquise, Tiffany......

Well we are here to make it as painless as possible. Even fun!

The first half dozen topics are essential. If you want to get in and out without getting ripped off and get a nice bit of carbon in a ring, then that’ll do it.

There are heaps of links out of those pages for nerds or head over heels types.
We want you to learn enough to ask the right questions in any store, or learn how to cut thru diamond jargon and buy online. Your choice!

Lets start with diamond grading reports

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 11/22/2007 2:59:09 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Neil is this too flippant?

Yes. But it does make for a more entertaining read.

My gut feeling is that the tutorial is a place for a bit more clinical ‘just the facts ma’am’ sort of approach where you are providing answers to some questions that the reader doesn’t even know enough to ask and leave the flippancy for the forum and the dealers own sites.

But that’s just me. I had my sense of humor surgically removed when I went to business school and traded in my Birkenstocks for wingtips. When a lot of money, especially my money, is involved I prefer a flavor that’s a bit more Alan Greenspan to Andy Rooney.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Regular Guy]

Date: 11/17/2007 3:20:18 PM
Author: Paul-Antwerp
Wouldn't you also add a reminder to consumers, that they are in the process of buying a diamond, and not a grading report? Each diamond is different from the other in some way, although the paper might consider them equal.

Live long,

Seems like Paul's is sort of the main point. The tutorial can be introduced any number of ways, using any sort of language. Not sure if changing the title of this approach to the tutorial would garner any more eyes or interest.

Some of the ideas reviewed...that could introduce the topic?

It is in fairness an emotional process for many.
It may be used to recognize a process they'll be drawn to encounter: they're shopping for a firecracker, they'll be talked to about color and clarity...they should remember, before they are done...they should not forget they were looking for a firecracker.
Still, color & clarity are factors associated with cost, and grading agencies can help them get what they're paying for.
Likewise, there are tools for helping them compare brilliance & fire, and the tutorial will help them understand those, too.

 

[sheena]

Thanks Gary. The tutorial for diamond grading reports is informative and need more knowledge about diamond industry.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Sorry for the delay mates.

Had a weekend in the bush, and busy week with a new patent that will change the industry somewhat

Here is what I recomend. It incorporates bits of many of your comments, but has been edited for speed reading:

Almost all diamonds sold online and better quality larger stones sold in the stores come with a (supposedly) independent 3rd party grading report, or cert. Reports help you ‘compare apples’ - but there is no international standards body; there are differences in the different labs grades.

Some vendors send a diamond to 2 or 3 different labs then sell the stone with the report that makes it cost the most. However the ‘market’ prices labs too, e.g. a diamond with a GIA report usually sells for more than one with the same reported grade from EGL. (link to Pricescope Grading Survey) On-line listings show this, but you should factor in ‘soft reports’ when shopping in stores.

?????????Do we include a price comparison chart? It is hard to really do this – as the comparisons are not apples to apples???????????

AGS reports are popular with Pricescoper’s buying ‘unseen’ because that lab has a better cut grade system for rounds and a few other shapes.
IGI is the biggest lab by quantity. Most IGI graded stones sold in stores.
EGL is also a big lab and was a global franchise until the slightly stricter American EGL split away. (links)
HRD is an Belgian semi government organization. Antwerp is a big trading center for rough and polished diamonds and HRD reports are popular in Europe and Asia. (link)

Some labs offer perspex sealed reports which helps stop mix-ups but limits testing and viewing options. (link or links?)

There are hundreds of smaller and specialty labs, and independent appraisal services. Some provide useful extra information that vendors give as a comfort or ‘point of sale’ support in addition to a report from one of the major labs above. There are far too many to list, but here are some examples.

GCAL (link)
Gemex (link)
Canadamark (link)

Some stores, like Tiffany & Co. operate their own labs, or have other labs brand their grading reports. IGI and others provide a service like this for branded cuts.

Grading reports include (each is a separate topic in the tutorial. The Blue ones are in the Quick and Easy tutorial:
Cut Shape (link)
Carat weight (link to section)
Color (link too color section)
Clarity (link too clarity section)
Dimensions. (link to measurements section)
Treatments (link)
Cut grades.(link too cut grading section)
Symmetry & Polish (link)
Girdle inscriptions. (link)
Fluorescence (link)
A unique report number (link to section about online report check systems)
Plotting diagram (link)
Comments (link)
Anti-counterfeiting measures like holograms.
Web based confirmation services (link)
University analogy (this shoulld be in a ''break out'' box)
IGI and EGL are like large statewide universities. GIA is Ivy League, and AGS is like the MIT rocket-science program. A polisher or manufacturer sends each diamond (student) to the place it will get the best grade (earn more $). The good to average go to the large universities (IGI/EGL). The better ones are sent to the Ivy League (GIA / HRD) and a few nerds go to MIT (AGS). Drop outs end up in a ‘program’ at a chain store or Joe''s Bar & Grading Lab.
This fun analogy underplays complex factors such as a cutters specialty and client base and a dealers target market.
???main grading reports with links off to their page, or our page(s), about each lab including pictures of what the various products look like. ????? Mouse over pop ups that explain each part?
Ask labs to provide this if they do not already Or is it too much – too confusing leaving our site???
Regional labs may be unknown nationally and globally if you want to resell your diamond, but they can add value locally.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/22/2007 2:59:09 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Your pulse is like a jackhammer. Sweat trickles with the glare of 100 spotlights. Your ego shrinks to the size of… er…..half a carat?

What’s his name, Francois? Frappe? The smug #@&% watches you squirm. All you want is a diamond for your sweetheart.

If this supercharged carbon was beer… or cameras, it would be a breeze. But diamonds, you’ve gotta learn about carats, clarity, brilliance, color, marquise, Tiffany......

Well we are here to make it as painless as possible. Even fun!

The first half dozen topics are essential stuff if you just want to get it over with asap - not get ripped off - and get a nice sparkly bit of carbon in a ring.

There are heaps of links and pages for nerds or head over heels types. You can register and get shill free help from the forum junkies and pro''s too.

We want you to learn enough to ask the right questions in any store, or learn how to cut thru diamond jargon and buy online. Your choice!

Lets start with diamond grading reports

Is that a teensy bit better Neil?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 11/25/2007 6:05:50 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

HRD is an Belgian semi government organization. Antwerp is a big trading center for rough and polished diamonds and HRD reports are popular in Europe and Asia. (link)

Although I am not an expert in HRD-grading, the structure is well-known to me.

HRD is not a semi-government organisation. It used to be the umbrella-organisation of the Belgian diamond industry, set up in order to promote the Belgian industry. One of their key-tasks was organizing a one-stop-shop for imports and exports, called Diamond Office, in collaboration with the Ministeries of Finance and Economic Affairs. Because of this last task, many people mistake the old organisation of HRD as being semi-government.

Last year, HRD had to be split into two entities, being AWDC (Antwerp World Diamond Center) and the new HRD. AWDC is a non-profit-organisation, destined to promote the Belgian diamond industry. The Diamond Office for imports and export is part of this organisation. And the new HRD is a for-profit-organisation, with commercial activities, mainly the grading lab and the organisation of gemmological courses.

Live long,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/27/2007 3:48:17 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 11/25/2007 6:05:50 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

HRD is an Belgian semi government organization. Antwerp is a big trading center for rough and polished diamonds and HRD reports are popular in Europe and Asia. (link)

Although I am not an expert in HRD-grading, the structure is well-known to me.

HRD is not a semi-government organisation. It used to be the umbrella-organisation of the Belgian diamond industry, set up in order to promote the Belgian industry. One of their key-tasks was organizing a one-stop-shop for imports and exports, called Diamond Office, in collaboration with the Ministeries of Finance and Economic Affairs. Because of this last task, many people mistake the old organisation of HRD as being semi-government.

Last year, HRD had to be split into two entities, being AWDC (Antwerp World Diamond Center) and the new HRD. AWDC is a non-profit-organisation, destined to promote the Belgian diamond industry. The Diamond Office for imports and export is part of this organisation. And the new HRD is a for-profit-organisation, with commercial activities, mainly the grading lab and the organisation of gemmological courses.

Live long,

So it is very complex Paul.

HRD was a semi government org?

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

It has never been a semi-government organisation, it was an industry-organisation, not-for-profit, which carried out certain tasks for and in co-operation with government.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Thank you all for the contributions so far.
Andrey has added the introduction - thanks Neil and Ira and others for the idea
http://diamonds.pricescope.com/

Andrey I think you could place the link to the draft version of the lab page here now?
Final review.

Some links will be dead because we will need to create those pages later in the advanced section.
We have just left the same images there for now - how do you all feel about sending people to GIA and AGS etc for their individual report explanation pages?
Should we do more than our list of key factors on grading reports?

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 11/25/2007 6:05:50 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

Sorry for the delay mates.

Had a weekend in the bush, and busy week with a new patent that will change the industry somewhat

Here is what I recomend. It incorporates bits of many of your comments, but has been edited for speed reading:

Almost all diamonds sold online and better quality larger stones sold in the stores come with a (supposedly) independent 3rd party grading report, or cert. Reports help you ‘compare apples’ - but there is no international standards body; there are differences in the different labs grades.

Some vendors send a diamond to 2 or 3 different labs then sell the stone with the report that makes it cost the most. However the ‘market’ prices labs too, e.g. a diamond with a GIA report usually sells for more than one with the same reported grade from EGL. (link to Pricescope Grading Survey) On-line listings show this, but you should factor in ‘soft reports’ when shopping in stores.

?????????Do we include a price comparison chart? It is hard to really do this – as the comparisons are not apples to apples???????????

AGS reports are popular with Pricescoper’s buying ‘unseen’ because that lab has a better cut grade system for rounds and a few other shapes.
IGI is the biggest lab by quantity. Most IGI graded stones sold in stores.
EGL is also a big lab and was a global franchise until the slightly stricter American EGL split away. (links)
HRD is an Belgian semi government organization. Antwerp is a big trading center for rough and polished diamonds and HRD reports are popular in Europe and Asia. (link)

Some labs offer perspex sealed reports which helps stop mix-ups but limits testing and viewing options. (link or links?)

There are hundreds of smaller and specialty labs, and independent appraisal services. Some provide useful extra information that vendors give as a comfort or ‘point of sale’ support in addition to a report from one of the major labs above. There are far too many to list, but here are some examples.

GCAL (link)
Gemex (link)
Canadamark (link)

Some stores, like Tiffany & Co. operate their own labs, or have other labs brand their grading reports. IGI and others provide a service like this for branded cuts.

Grading reports include (each is a separate topic in the tutorial. The Blue ones are in the Quick and Easy tutorial:
Cut Shape (link)
Carat weight (link to section)
Color (link too color section)
Clarity (link too clarity section)
Dimensions. (link to measurements section)
Treatments (link)
Cut grades.(link too cut grading section)
Symmetry & Polish (link)
Girdle inscriptions. (link)
Fluorescence (link)
A unique report number (link to section about online report check systems)
Plotting diagram (link)
Comments (link)
Anti-counterfeiting measures like holograms.
Web based confirmation services (link)

University analogy (this shoulld be in a ''break out'' box)
IGI and EGL are like large statewide universities. GIA is Ivy League, and AGS is like the MIT rocket-science program. A polisher or manufacturer sends each diamond (student) to the place it will get the best grade (earn more $). The good to average go to the large universities (IGI/EGL). The better ones are sent to the Ivy League (GIA / HRD) and a few nerds go to MIT (AGS). Drop outs end up in a ‘program’ at a chain store or Joe''s Bar & Grading Lab.
This fun analogy underplays complex factors such as a cutters specialty and client base and a dealers target market.

???main grading reports with links off to their page, or our page(s), about each lab including pictures of what the various products look like. ????? Mouse over pop ups that explain each part?
Ask labs to provide this if they do not already Or is it too much – too confusing leaving our site???
Regional labs may be unknown nationally and globally if you want to resell your diamond, but they can add value locally.

clear as mud for newbies and almost as bad as that is there now.
Even someone knowing what its about its a mess.

 

[strmrdr]

a (supposedly) independent The next part about internation standards is weak on an important point.



However the ‘market’ prices labs too, e.g. a diamond with a GIA report usually sells for more than one with the same reported grade from EGL. (link to Pricescope Grading Survey) On-line listings show this, but you should factor in ‘soft reports’ when shopping in stores.

?????????Do we include a price comparison chart? It is hard to really do this – as the comparisons are not apples to apples???????????

AGS reports are popular with Pricescoper’s buying ‘unseen’ because that lab has a better cut grade system for rounds and a few other shapes.
IGI is the biggest lab by quantity. Most IGI graded stones sold in stores.
EGL is also a big lab and was a global franchise until the slightly stricter American EGL split away. (links)
HRD is an Belgian semi government organization. Antwerp is a big trading center for rough and polished diamonds and HRD reports are popular in Europe and Asia. (link)

is a total mess.

We can do better!!!

University analogy (this shoulld be in a ''break out'' box)
IGI and EGL are like large statewide universities. GIA is Ivy League, and AGS is like the MIT rocket-science program. A polisher or manufacturer sends each diamond (student) to the place it will get the best grade (earn more $). The good to average go to the large universities (IGI/EGL). The better ones are sent to the Ivy League (GIA / HRD) and a few nerds go to MIT (AGS). Drop outs end up in a ‘program’ at a chain store or Joe''s Bar & Grading Lab.
This fun analogy underplays complex factors such as a cutters specialty and client base and a dealers target market.

Again stating as opinion as fact with no evidence and is as clear as mud.

1: tone it down
2: clear it up
3: k.i.s.s.
4: drop opinions as much as possible
5: some bias is showing stick to documentable information.

 

[oldminer]

When you look up prices on diamonds by their grading you can learn certain things about how the market appreciates the value added, or lessened by each lab, but only in a general, average based, way. On any specific diamond which you have not examined, you can only guess about why a price is higher, on par, or lower than the mode or average. It could be the color/clarity grading is weak, or extra tight. It might be the cut is better than expected or worse than acceptable. The color and/or clarity may be unusual, such as a brownish tint, or an open versus a closed inclusions. Minor grading issues such as polish and symmetry can change diamond asking prices sometimes and be ignored sometimes. In the end, you usually have more than one issue of subjectivity, and may have nearly an infinite combination of subjectivity which meaningfully may alter an asking price.

Furthermore, "asking price" is not "transaction price". It has been documented that the "asking price" of off make diamonds is often higher than the asking price of finely cut ones. The finely cut stones are much more a commodity and competitively sold. Poorly or even moderately cut diamonds have a greater chance of bringing an off the wall price because a particular buyer might just does not know enough to offer less. Value and asking price have a wider spread on poorer cut diamonds than on well cut examples. Transaction prices are extremely difficult to grab as these are mostly confidential purchases. We must assume that interdealer prices are based on real value and actual grades in spite of asking price and paperwork on lab reports, but I think it is fair to assume that many end user transaction prices are far less based on value than on Market Value. Market Value is defined in Black''s Law Dictionary as the price a vendor sets on his merchandise.

There is a lot consumers would love to know about labs and their reports. It is difficult to guide a novice through the narrow and twisting pathway a stone travels before reaching the consumer. The more light is shown on the subject, the better people will navigate. There is nothing too scary here, but it will be quite an insight into the inner workings of an old fashioned free market just slowly evolving into a more transparent, 21st century market.

In making this new report we ought to limit our conclusions, as we did previously, to the fairly narrow scope of our ability to investigate. We won''t be able to physically examine a truly large sample, but rather, draw our conclusions from the data that we have adequate access to. It isn''t as if our conclusions won''t be valid, but we need to limit ourselves by acknowledging what our methods have been. Its a very worthy goal to bring an update to consumers.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 11/29/2007 11:26:06 PM
Author: strmrdr

a (supposedly) independent The next part about internation standards is weak on an important point.



However the ‘market’ prices labs too, e.g. a diamond with a GIA report usually sells for more than one with the same reported grade from EGL. (link to Pricescope Grading Survey) On-line listings show this, but you should factor in ‘soft reports’ when shopping in stores.

?????????Do we include a price comparison chart? It is hard to really do this – as the comparisons are not apples to apples???????????

AGS reports are popular with Pricescoper’s buying ‘unseen’ because that lab has a better cut grade system for rounds and a few other shapes.
IGI is the biggest lab by quantity. Most IGI graded stones sold in stores.
EGL is also a big lab and was a global franchise until the slightly stricter American EGL split away. (links)
HRD is an Belgian semi government organization. Antwerp is a big trading center for rough and polished diamonds and HRD reports are popular in Europe and Asia. (link)

is a total mess.

We can do better!!!

University analogy (this shoulld be in a ''break out'' box)
IGI and EGL are like large statewide universities. GIA is Ivy League, and AGS is like the MIT rocket-science program. A polisher or manufacturer sends each diamond (student) to the place it will get the best grade (earn more $). The good to average go to the large universities (IGI/EGL). The better ones are sent to the Ivy League (GIA / HRD) and a few nerds go to MIT (AGS). Drop outs end up in a ‘program’ at a chain store or Joe''s Bar & Grading Lab.
This fun analogy underplays complex factors such as a cutters specialty and client base and a dealers target market.

Again stating as opinion as fact with no evidence and is as clear as mud.

1: tone it down
2: clear it up
3: k.i.s.s.
4: drop opinions as much as possible
5: some bias is showing stick to documentable information.

Storm there are no famous critic''s (other than Robert Parker and HCA as the exceptions to the rule).

tone what down?
clear what up?
make it simpler how?
drop what opinions?
stick to documentable info

For example I chose not to include this ''opinion'':
These labs are hired and paid for by the trade too give an opinion of the diamonds charactoristics.

I am happy to recieve help, but the lack of suggestions in you your critique is not helpful

 

[psadmin]

Hi Everyone,

I want to thank yo all for your support and participation.

I have started putting this together.

Here is the current work in progress:

http://diamonds.pricescope.com/grading2.asp

Let me know if you see any issues.

Andrey
PS Admin

 

[denverappraiser]

Andrey,

You forgot to list GIA.

I would recommend a ‘buffer’ page for each of the labs rather than directly linking to the labs own site. Use this page to describe what sorts of reports are offered by that lab, what information is contained along with samples of what the various reports look like. This is especially true with the supplemental reports where what is being shown is a bit unusual or unique to that report, like the Canadamark or Gemex. I would resist the temptation to use this portion of the site for comments about whether these things are especially useful but rather answer the question 'what is it?' for the benefit of readers who are shown one in a sales presentation and who don't know. Judgements can appear later or in the forum discussions of them.

“On-line listings show this, but you should factor in ‘soft reports’ when shopping in stores.”
This is unnecessary and inaccurate. The whole issue of grading accuracy is a huge problem in the diamond industry but there is at least as much abuse online than in the stores. This topic deserves a whole page in the tutorial and possibly more, not just a remark that suggests that stores are worse than online.

At least in my part of the US, those Perspex sealed reports are incredibly rare. They perhaps deserve a mention somewhere in the tutorial but I don’t think it belongs on the front page. I’ve only seen 2 of these in the last year and both have been a client who bought their stone from a storefront in Belgium and brought it home.

”HRD is an Belgian semi government organization.”
Paul is surely right about this.

“The Blue ones are in the Quick and Easy tutorial:”
Every one of these should have a link to a page in the tutorial. That would make this statement unnecessary. They should be listed in the same order that they appear in the tutorial so if the next page is ‘carat weight’, that should be listed first.

Like most people here, I prefer the AGS cut grading system for rounds but there is far from universal agreement that it’s ‘better’. I think it’s more accurate to say that it’s more precise.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Regular Guy]

Andrey,

Thanks for showing us your production site.

Date: 12/1/2007 12:10:09 AM
Author: PS Admin

I have started putting this together.

Here is the current work in progress:

http://diamonds.pricescope.com/grading2.asp

Personally...I like the look of main text at left, and side bar at right, where you put the "university" analogy.

Also, I agree with Neil on at least the one point...early up...though you may be trying to do something else...it could probably be helpful to list GIA...maybe second in that list...under AGS.

One sort of thing you could say...

"However you regard its cut grading system...for years it provided none...and now, whether or not you agree with their adopted approach to evaluation ...they do now provide critical proportion measurements, to help you to appreciate the look of the diamond."

Maybe this could help...though no historical perspective may be necessary at all for new shoppers, true.

Regards,

A Big P.S. to Storm.....kicken lightning!

 

[strmrdr]

Garry lets back up a bit and diagram the information:

grading reports.

a> What are grading reports?
b> Why do I need one?
c> whats a lab and how are they different?
c> What information is on a grading report and how do I use it?
d> further warnings and clarification
e> samples

That is the basics that needs too be covered.
The current draft fails to do so in a clear manner.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/1/2007 8:34:14 AM
Author: denverappraiser
Andrey,

You forgot to list GIA.

I would recommend a ‘buffer’ page for each of the labs rather than directly linking to the labs own site. Use this page to describe what sorts of reports are offered by that lab, what information is contained along with samples of what the various reports look like. This is especially true with the supplemental reports where what is being shown is a bit unusual or unique to that report, like the Canadamark or Gemex. I would resist the temptation to use this portion of the site for comments about whether these things are especially useful but rather answer the question ''what is it?'' for the benefit of readers who are shown one in a sales presentation and who don''t know. Judgements can appear later or in the forum discussions of them.

“On-line listings show this, but you should factor in ‘soft reports’ when shopping in stores.”
“On-line listings show this, but you should factor in the lower prices these ''soft report'' diamonds often trade at if you are shopping in stores.”
This is unnecessary and inaccurate. The whole issue of grading accuracy is a huge problem in the diamond industry but there is at least as much abuse online than in the stores. This topic deserves a whole page in the tutorial and possibly more, not just a remark that suggests that stores are worse than online.

At least in my part of the US, those Perspex sealed reports are incredibly rare. They perhaps deserve a mention somewhere in the tutorial but I don’t think it belongs on the front page. I’ve only seen 2 of these in the last year and both have been a client who bought their stone from a storefront in Belgium and brought it home.
We have a lot of Non USA members and lurkers Neil.
”HRD is an Belgian semi government organization.”
Paul is surely right about this.
HRD is an Belgian semi government organization. Antwerp is a big trading center for rough and polished diamonds and HRD reports are popular in Europe and Asia.
HRD is a respected Belgian institution in Antwerp - a big trading center for rough and polished diamonds. HRD reports are popular in Europe and Asia.

“The Blue ones are in the Quick and Easy tutorial:”
Every one of these should have a link to a page in the tutorial. That would make this statement unnecessary. They should be listed in the same order that they appear in the tutorial so if the next page is ‘carat weight’, that should be listed first. Neil some of these pages do not exist yet. Andrey can we not underline the ones that go now where please, and edit the text accordingly, or send it to a page saying Page under construction????

Like most people here, I prefer the AGS cut grading system for rounds but there is far from universal agreement that it’s ‘better’. I think it’s more accurate to say that it’s more precise. I suggest we handle that in the next page we will do - the Cut section, or an advanced cut section. KIS

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/1/2007 1:30:41 PM
Author: strmrdr
Garry lets back up a bit and diagram the information:

grading reports.

a> What are grading reports?
b> Why do I need one?
c> whats a lab and how are they different?
c> What information is on a grading report and how do I use it?
d> further warnings and clarification
e> samples

That is the basics that needs too be covered.
The current draft fails to do so in a clear manner.

Storm by and large I see it does that.

If you want to have another go at it, please do.

But I am almost happy.

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 12/2/2007 12:51:49 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)



At least in my part of the US, those Perspex sealed reports are incredibly rare. They perhaps deserve a mention somewhere in the tutorial but I don’t think it belongs on the front page. I’ve only seen 2 of these in the last year and both have been a client who bought their stone from a storefront in Belgium and brought it home.

We have a lot of Non USA members and lurkers Neil.

Are these really popular in Europe or elsewhere? There isn''t a single one listed in the pricescope database and they are unheard of in stores, at least around here. It seems like a bad idea to me, which makes little different but it seems like a bad idea that''s not succeeding, which would be a reason to move it off of this page.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 12/2/2007 12:51:49 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

“On-line listings show this, but you should factor in ‘soft reports’ when shopping in stores.”

“On-line listings show this, but you should factor in the lower prices these 'soft report' diamonds often trade at if you are shopping in stores.”

‘Soft grading’ is often reflected in lower asking prices but you should consider this a factor when you are shopping.’

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Paul-Antwerp]

Date: 12/2/2007 9:35:49 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 12/2/2007 12:51:49 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

At least in my part of the US, those Perspex sealed reports are incredibly rare. They perhaps deserve a mention somewhere in the tutorial but I don’t think it belongs on the front page. I’ve only seen 2 of these in the last year and both have been a client who bought their stone from a storefront in Belgium and brought it home.

We have a lot of Non USA members and lurkers Neil.

Are these really popular in Europe or elsewhere? There isn''t a single one listed in the pricescope database and they are unheard of in stores, at least around here. It seems like a bad idea to me, which makes little different but it seems like a bad idea that''s not succeeding, which would be a reason to move it off of this page.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I would not say that these are popular in Europe. Whenever I see them, it is a red flag, since something is probably wrong with the stone, especially when I see them being used with a professional buyer.

In Dubai however, I heard, that unsealed stones are considered red flags.

Live long,

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/2/2007 9:39:29 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 12/2/2007 12:51:49 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

“On-line listings show this, but you should factor in ‘soft reports’ when shopping in stores.”

“On-line listings show this, but you should factor in the lower prices these ''soft report'' diamonds often trade at if you are shopping in stores.”

‘Soft grading’ is often reflected in lower asking prices but you should consider this a factor when you are shopping.’

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

Dear all,
Check out the draft page again please as it has had several changes. It is relevant to your suggetion above Neil as the context has been changed.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/2/2007 10:48:48 AM
Author: Paul-Antwerp

Date: 12/2/2007 9:35:49 AM
Author: denverappraiser

Date: 12/2/2007 12:51:49 AM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)

At least in my part of the US, those Perspex sealed reports are incredibly rare. They perhaps deserve a mention somewhere in the tutorial but I don’t think it belongs on the front page. I’ve only seen 2 of these in the last year and both have been a client who bought their stone from a storefront in Belgium and brought it home.

We have a lot of Non USA members and lurkers Neil.

Are these really popular in Europe or elsewhere? There isn''t a single one listed in the pricescope database and they are unheard of in stores, at least around here. It seems like a bad idea to me, which makes little different but it seems like a bad idea that''s not succeeding, which would be a reason to move it off of this page.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

I would not say that these are popular in Europe. Whenever I see them, it is a red flag, since something is probably wrong with the stone, especially when I see them being used with a professional buyer.

In Dubai however, I heard, that unsealed stones are considered red flags.

Live long,

I prefer HRD is included because we often see newbies asking questions about HRD.
Pricescope is not only about online diamond shopping.

 

[denverappraiser]

HRD has quite a few products with varying formats, this is only one of them, and apparently not a particularly popular one at that. IGI and EGL International also uses this format occasionally. I agree that all 3 of these labs should be included. I’m sure there are others that offer a sealed format as well. It’s not the lab’s inclusion I’m questioning, it’s including the report formatting issues as part of page 1 of the reports tutorial. This belongs on the page about the various products available from each lab. The differences between a GIA diamond consultation vs. a GIA Diamond Quality Report and an AGS Diamond Quality Report vs. an AGS Diamond Quality Document both strike me as more important issues to most of our readers.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Date: 12/2/2007 7:13:14 PM
Author: denverappraiser
HRD has quite a few products with varying formats, this is only one of them, and apparently not a particularly popular one at that. IGI and EGL International also uses this format occasionally. I agree that all 3 of these labs should be included. I’m sure there are others that offer a sealed format as well. It’s not the lab’s inclusion I’m questioning, it’s including the report formatting issues as part of page 1 of the reports tutorial. Neil this refers to sealed reports generically - the one linked to is IGI (because it was a clear easy to understand page). There are I believe many more overseas lurkers as a % of Pricescope lurkers, and these people also have a need for education. It takes up 1.5 lines. This belongs on the page about the various products available from each lab. The differences between a GIA diamond consultation vs. a GIA Diamond Quality Report and an AGS Diamond Quality Report vs. an AGS Diamond Quality Document both strike me as more important issues to most of our readers. I propose we get through the main details and already required new topics (e.g. comments, treatments etc) that we have zilch content for Neil. We can revist the ''nice to have list'' after we have done all the rest.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ICGA(AGS) NAJA
Professional Appraisals in Denver

BTW has everyone seen the most recent update?